Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Error 7/7 mystery....
| Error 7/7 mystery.... [message #93906] |
Sat, 22 December 2007 23:45  |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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sales.<BR>>><BR>>>Steve =
>Jobs went=20
>to all the cloners and tried to renegotiate the =
>licensing<BR>>>prices, the=20
>cloners wouldn't hear of it, so Apple did not renew the=20
>licensing<BR>>>with Mac OS 8. Apple did not pull the=20
>licensing. The cloners could still<BR>>>build systems and =
>ship them=20
>with Mac OS 7.6 installed, and bundled OS 8,<BR>>>they chose not =
>to. =20
>PowerComputing announced after that, that they were<BR>> =
>going<BR>>>to=20
>start building PCs, which I think they did for a short time. In=20
>the<BR>> end,<BR>>>Apple bought out PowerComputing for 100 =
>million=20
>dollars in Apple stock.<BR>> <BR>>>I think that was pretty =
>generous of=20
>Apple. I believe it was up to Kahng<BR>>>to take care of his =
>workers=20
>from there.<BR>>><BR>>>As far as UMAX, they continued on for =
>years=20
>building scanners and other<BR>> products<BR>>>as they did =
>before they=20
>made clones.<BR>></FONT></BODY></HTML>
>
>You guys are going to love this. I'm thinking about moving a Paris s
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| Re: Error 7/7 mystery.... [message #93907 is a reply to message #93906] |
Sat, 22 December 2007 23:24  |
Tom Bruhl
Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
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ystem
over to a PC, mainly because of Mike's plugins. Aaron, there is something
you can do for me, you can help me out when I switch a Paris system over
to my PC, if your up for it?
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>
>
>We'll just have to disagree about it I guess. I still like ya and I =
>think you're a cool dude, just a bit misguided :) I find nothing ethical
=
>in the things I've posted about so far and you could post the same kind
=
>of things about MS and we'd see that together. But not the mighty blue =
>apple? Added to that the Jobs li(n)e by li(n)e <-bad pun #1> that was =
>pushed on the public (*).=20
>
>It ain't like I'm saying MS is ethical - they're not, either - but the =
>only thing keeping Apple from being the same ugly foul hairy beast is =
>financial firepower. Gates lies about how great Vista is. It's a turd. =
>Jobs lied about how great Motorola chips were. They were turds. Gates =
>forces you as a business to buy office/OS's through each planned =
>obsolescene upgrade. Jobs tells you to think you're safe from virii as =
>an ad campaign and tells you how Mac runs office 'just as well as a PC'.
=
>but fails to mention it's OLD version of office, years old in fact. =
>There are 60 known virii in the wild for Mac, but you won't hear about =
>that from Jobs/Apple. =20
>
>Apple Ads, speaking of....PC's are cold and harsh and only good at =
>office apps, 'eh? Somebody should tell that to all the video and audio =
>guys that make wonderful art every single day on a windows PC, because =
>they didn't get the memo. I will say that iLife and GarageBand are =
>pretty cool, though not pro of course. I have 2 macs at my avail at =
>work, and several PC's. Frankly, they both tick me off from time to time
=
>but the Win boxes see more use and tick me off a whole lot less. Nothing
=
>like plugging in a KVM and having your Mac reach an unrecoverable error
=
>and forced shutdown because it doesn't like the KVM. Every time. But not
=
>being the latest OS I can't get support for it w/o buying some more =
>"apple care", and Belkin had no idea what would cause it, nor my vendor.
=
> I had been considering a Mini for personal use (with boot camp of =
>course), but that kinda gotcha rather cinched the "think I'll pass for =
>now" for me. MacOS-x 10.29 on dual procs, and it's a foot prop under my
=
>desk now. At least it doesn't crash that way and it's more ergonomic for
=
>my peds, heh... I get a warm fuzzy and smirk when my feet hit it :>
>
>(*) Apple is so much faster, Apple is so much more interesting, Apple is
=
>so much better at.... er, .... hey, it's the new and improved Apple now
=
>with INTEL hardware (IE, that's called a PC Steve-O, and no amount of =
>backpeddling will cover the fact that you were lying through your teeth
=
>about how much faster Motorola's I'd-rather-be-in-a-cell-phone chips =
>were over INTEL) and it's so much better than , uh.. running windows =
>(can't say PC anymore at this point)! Er, wait.. now you can run Windows
=
>on your Apple! (which I don't have a problem with, in fact I applaud =
>that one but don't you think that's rather odd for Apple to say bad =
>windows, bad windows.. hey, you can now run windows?) I also give major
=
>points to that dually quicksilver being WAY cleanly designed inside. =
>Superb visual build inside the box. Too bad it's an ergonomic foot =
>device now.=20
>
>You talked about MS stealing the macOS software GUI. Ok, where did Apple
=
>get their code base from for OS-X? Can't see the worm in both apples, =
>'eh? <-yes, that was bad pun #2.... but I am a punny guy!>
>
>They screwed you as a clone seller even and still you deny. Horse, =
>water, no drinky. You're probably thinking the same thing about the =
>majority here. In all seriousness, I'm glad you have enjoyed your =
>relationships with Mac, I cannot report the same, unfortunately. I =
>absolutely adore my iPOD though, and although iPhone is tre' cool, it's
=
>not cutting it with me on the tech end so it's off the list of 'to buy'.
=
>I also thought that the Cinema Display was about the most beautiful =
>display ever as far back as 4~5 years ago. on the overall though, I =
>didn't like Apple computer kool-aid any better than MS's kool-aid.
>
>You're ok in my book man, so don't take any of this all personal or =
>anything, it's really not meant that way. I haven't forgotten when I had
=
>a problem with a Mac you are the first and only dude offered and =
>followed through to help me out. Some day I'll get a chance to repay in
=
>kind.
>
>AA
>
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:47bf218e$1@linux...
>>=20
>> For the record, it was what Apple did to the cloners that drove me =
>into the
>> ever welcoming arms of Redmond. I couldn't afford Apple hardware, but
=
>I could
>> afford a Power 603e machine that was my first experience with computer
=
>audio.
>> Less than a year after that Apple shut down the cloners and I =
>realized, 'Hey,
>> these are greedy corporate bastards just like Microsoft. And Windows =
>hardware
>> is cheap and I can build my own.' Which lead me to a 400 Mhz Celeron +
=
>Paris,
>> and the rest is (grim, money losing, book publishing) history.=20
>>=20
>> Your story is one version. Another is that Power was a smart, =
>talented, agile
>> hardware vendor who was beating the daylights out of Apple because =
>they were
>> everything Apple had long since ceased to be--entrepreneurial and =
>customer
>> oriented.=20
>>=20
>> TCB
>>=20
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message=20
>>>>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market =
>share?
>>> I
>>>>
>>>>How about the time the pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing =
>and
>> UMaxx
>>>
>>>>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of =
>work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Deej since you mentioned PowerComputing,there are a few things that =
>should
>>>be noted. As I've said, the cloners ate in to Apple's sales. The =
>clones
>>>advertised mainly in Mac publications to Mac users, If they had =
>advertised
>>>in PC publications and did other forms of advertising to non Mac users
=
>they
>>>would have grown the market. They didn't, they cherry picked Apple =
>sales.
>>> One such famous incident was when PowerComputing was directly =
>competing
>>>with Apple by selling 3000 clones to Apple's long time customer =
>Lockheed
>>>Martin, that didn't go over to well. PowerComputing also worked a =
>deal
>> with
>>>IBM to get the fastest PowerPC processors before Apple could, this =
>further
>>>cost Apple sales.
>>>
>>>Steve Jobs went to all the cloners and tried to renegotiate the =
>licensing
>>>prices, the cloners wouldn't hear of it, so Apple did not renew the =
>licensing
>>>with Mac OS 8. Apple did not pull the licensing. The cloners could =
>still
>>>build systems and ship them with Mac OS 7.6 installed, and bundled OS
=
>8,
>>>they chose not to. PowerComputing announced after that, that they =
>were
>> going
>>>to start building PCs, which I think they did for a short time. In =
>the
>> end,
>>>Apple bought out PowerComputing for 100 million dollars in Apple =
>stock.
>>=20
>>>I think that was pretty generous of Apple. I believe it was up to =
>Kahng
>>>to take care of his workers from there.
>>>
>>>As far as UMAX, they continued on for years building scanners and =
>other
>> products
>>>as they did before they made clones.
>>
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| Re: Error 7/7 mystery.... [message #93909 is a reply to message #93908] |
Sun, 23 December 2007 06:22 |
mike audet[1]
Messages: 129
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
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;upgrade. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial>Jobs tells you to think you're =
>safe from=20
>virii as an ad campaign and tells you how Mac runs office 'just as well
=
>as a=20
>PC'. but fails to mention it's OLD version of office, years old in fact.
=
>There=20
>are 60 known virii in the wild for Mac, but you won't =
>hear about=20
>that from Jobs/Apple. </FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Apple Ads, speaking of....PC's are cold and =
>harsh and only=20
>good at office apps, 'eh? Somebody should tell that to all the video and
=
>audio=20
>guys that make wonderful art every single day on a windows PC, because =
>they=20
>didn't get the memo. I will say that iLife and GarageBand are pretty =
>cool,=20
>though not pro of course. I have 2 macs at my avail at work, and several
=
>PC's.=20
>Frankly, they both tick me off from time to time but the Win boxes =
>see more=20
>use and tick me off a whole lot less. Nothing like plugging in a KVM and
=
>having=20
>your Mac reach an unrecoverable error and forced shutdown because =
>it=20
>doesn't like the KVM. Every time. But not being the latest OS I can't =
>get=20
>support for it w/o buying some more "apple care", and Belkin had no idea
=
>what=20
>would cause it, nor my vendor. I had been considering a Mini for =
>personal=20
>use (with boot camp of course), but that kinda gotcha rather cinched the
=
>"think=20
>I'll pass for now" for me. MacOS-x 10.29 on dual procs, and it's a foot
=
>prop=20
>under my desk now. At least it doesn't crash that way and it's more =
>ergonomic=20
>for my peds, heh... I get a warm fuzzy and smirk when my feet =
>hit it=20
>:></FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial><STRONG>(*)</STRONG> Apple is so much =
>faster, Apple=20
>is so much more interesting, Apple is so much better at.... er, .... =
>hey, it's=20
>the new and improved Apple now with INTEL hardware (IE, that's called a
=
>PC=20
>Steve-O, and no amount of backpeddling will cover the fact th
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| Re: Error 7/7 mystery.... IRQ Diversion [message #93911 is a reply to message #93909] |
Sun, 23 December 2007 06:35 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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I. Ok,=20
>where did Apple get their code base from for OS-X? Can't see the worm in
=
>both=20
>apples, 'eh? <-yes, that was bad pun #2.... but I am a punny=20
>guy!></FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial>They screwed you as a clone seller even and =
>still you=20
>deny. Horse, water, no drinky. You're probably thinking the same =
>thing=20
>about the majority here. In all seriousness, I'm glad you have =
>enjoyed your=20
>relationships with Mac, I cannot report the same, unfortunately. I =
>absolutely=20
>adore my iPOD though, and although iPhone is tre' cool, it's not cutting
=
>it with=20
>me on the tech end so it's off the list of 'to buy'. I also thought that
=
>the=20
>Cinema Display was about the most beautiful display ever as far back as
=
>4~5=20
>years ago. on the overall though, I didn't like Apple =
>computer kool-aid any=20
>better than MS's kool-aid.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial>You're ok in my book man, so don't take any of =
>this all=20
>personal or anything, it's really not meant that way. I haven't =
>forgotten when I=20<
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| Re: Error 7/7 mystery.... not software. [message #93920 is a reply to message #93914] |
Sun, 23 December 2007 14:09 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
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ergonomic for
>> my peds, heh... I get a warm fuzzy and smirk when my feet hit it :>
>
> I'll be happy to store it for you. Could probably put it to good use. The
> quicksilvers were pretty loud, though. The G5 is much, much quieter, and
> the current Intel boxes are also pretty quiet.
Yeah, Hoover's got nothing on this box (dam or vacuum cleaner, LOL)
>
>
>> *(*)* Apple is so much faster, Apple is so much more interesting, Apple
>> is so much better at.... er, ....
>
> Those whacky marketing types...
.....are lying. On Apple's behalf, and on Apple's dime. Funny yes, honest no.
Not Ethical.
>
>> hey, it's the new and improved Apple now with INTEL hardware (IE, that's
>> called a PC Steve-O, and no amount of backpeddling will cover the fact
>> that you were lying through your teeth about how much faster Motorola's
>> I'd-rather-be-in-a-cell-phone chips were over INTEL)
>
> For its time the G4 didn't suck. The G5 is still a mighty chip around
> here. Keep in mind that the current core 2 duo stuff was not out when Jobs
> announced the switch. He switched for the then upcoming processor road
> map, which was more attractive from Intel at the time than from IBM.
> Turned out to be an OK choice I think, although I have yet to get one of
> the Intel Macs.
Ditto, but I hear great things about Intel Mac boxes. And frankly, I think
he made a huge mistake not going with AMD.
However, back on topic: is Apple an ethical company..... :)
>
>
>> and it's so much better than , uh.. running windows (can't say PC anymore
>> at this point)!
>
> I think you could always say PC. "Personal computer" fits any of these
> boxes.
Then why are the Apple ads saying *hi, I'm a PC... and hi, I'm a Mac* ??
Apple's making that distinction, not me.
>
>
>> Er, wait.. now you can run Windows on your Apple! (which I don't have a
>> problem with, in fact I applaud that one but don't you think that's
>> rather odd for Apple to say bad windows, bad windows.. hey, you can now
>> run windows?)
>
> Since many people are stuck with using MSWindows for specific software,
> company policy, etc., it's not so odd for Apple to market to them.
> Shocking, maybe. Clever, actually.
I like the choice, as stated earlier I spec'd apple boxes with an extra OS
license of XP for each 10.5 OS box and Boot Camp.
>
>
>> I also give major points to that dually quicksilver being WAY cleanly
>> designed inside. Superb visual build inside the box. Too bad it's an
>> ergonomic foot device now.
>
> Having had both, the G5s are even nicer - with pretty much the same
> external case as
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| Re: Error 7/7 mystery.... ...is still a mystery. [message #93922 is a reply to message #93907] |
Sun, 23 December 2007 16:54 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
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|
s started after been booted out of Apple. I used to work for a NeXT
> developer doing documentation and testing. Had a cool NeXT cube. Good
> times!
So, you're saying it is not BSD? Interesting......
>
>
>> They screwed you as a clone seller even and still you deny. Horse, water,
>> no drinky. You're probably thinking the same thing about the majority
>> here. In all seriousness, I'm glad you have enjoyed your relationships
>> with Mac, I cannot report the same, unfortunately. I absolutely adore my
>> iPOD though, and although iPhone is tre' cool, it's not cutting it with
>> me on the tech end so it's off the list of 'to buy'.
>
> I haven't fallen for iPods or iPhones. Yet anyway.
I bet you will. iPOD's rock, but I would steer clear of the cheap seats -
like anything else in life. I think, however, that I will not buy another
movie from them because I don't like being locked out of being able to make
a DVD for backup/viewing outside my computer. That sucks.
and iTUNES has turned into a fat piece of bloated code IMO as well. I'm
about to jump to Media Monkey I think.
>
>
>> I also thought that the Cinema Display was about the most beautiful
>> display ever as far back as 4~5 years ago. on the overall though, I
>> didn't like Apple computer kool-aid any better than MS's kool-aid.
>
> Having spent some time working in development environments on multiple
> platforms (not just Apple and Microsoft), I think both of those flavors of
> koolaid taste odd. But overall, for the reasons I spelled out in my other
> post, Microsoft's koolaid is worse. Apple has actually gotten better than
> they were in the 80s/90s, IMO. I was not a fan of OS9 and before.
I didn't dig ANY os that could crash with unprotected memory. BAD juju man.
Glad they got that one dealt with.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>> You're ok in my book man, so don't take any of this all personal or
>> anything, it's really not meant that way. I haven't forgotten when I had
>> a problem with a Mac you are the first and only dude offered and followed
>> through to help me out. Some day I'll get a chance to repay in kind.
>> AA
>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com <mailto:nobody@ishere.com>> wrote in message
>> news:47bf218e$1@linux...
>> >
>> > For the record, it was what Apple did to the cloners that drove me
>> into the
>> > ever welcoming arms of Redmond. I couldn't afford Apple hardware, but
>> I could
>> > afford a Power 603e machine that was my first experience with computer
>> audio.
>> > Less than a year after that Apple shut down the cloners and I
>> realized, 'Hey,
>> > these are greedy corporate bastards just like Microsoft. And Windows
>> hardware
>> > is cheap and I can build my own.' Which lead me to a 400 Mhz Celeron +
>> Paris,
>> > and the rest is (grim, money losing, book publishing) history.
>> >
>> > Your story is one version. Another is that Power was a smart,
>> talented, agile
>> > hardware vendor who was beating the daylights out of Apple because
>> they were
>> > everything Apple had long since ceased to be--entrepreneurial and
>> customer
>> > oriented.
>> >
>> > TCB
>> >
>> > "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com <mailto:excelsm@hotmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>"Deej" <noway@jose.net <mailto:noway@jose.net>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com <mailto:excelsm@hotmail.com>>
>> wrote in message
>> >>>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market
>> share?
>> >> I
>> >>>
>> >>>How about the time the pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing
>> and
>> > UMaxx
>> >>
>> >>>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of
>> work.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>Deej since you mentioned PowerComputing,there are a few things that
>> should
>> >>be noted. As I've said, the cloners ate in to Apple's sales. The
>> clones
>> >>advertised mainly in Mac publications to Mac users, If they had
>> advertised
>> >>in PC publications and did other forms of advertising to non Mac users
>> they
>> >>would have grown the market. They didn't, they cherry picked Apple
>> sales.
>> >> One such famous incident was when PowerComputing was directly
>> competing
>> >>with Apple by selling 3000 clones to Apple's long time customer
>> Lockheed
>> >>Martin, that didn't go over to well. PowerComputing also worked a
>> deal
>> > with
>> >>IBM to get the fastest PowerPC processors before Apple could, this
>> further
>> >>cost Apple sales.
>> >>
>> >>Steve Jobs went to all the cloners and tried to renegotiate the
>> licensing
>> >>prices, the cloners wouldn't hear of it, so Apple did not renew the
>> licensing
>> >>with Mac OS 8. Apple did not pull the licensing. The cloners could
>> still
>> >>build systems and ship them with Mac OS 7.6 installed, and bundled OS
>> 8,
>> >>they chose not to. PowerComputing announced after that, that they
>> were
>> > going
>> >>to start building PCs, which I think they did for a short time. In
>> the
>> > end,
>> >>Apple bought out PowerComputing for 100 million dollars in Apple
>> stock.
>> >
>> >>I think that was pretty generous of Apple. I believe it was up to
>> Kahng
>> >>to take care of his workers from there.
>> >>
>> >>As far as UMAX, they continued on for years building scanners and
>> other
>> > products
>> >>as they did before they made clones.
>> >"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47bfd24d$1@linux...
>
> Aaron I think your Ok too. Yes we do disagree on some things. I believe
> that the G4 was the diesel engine of processors, and a heavy lifter in
> it's
> time. The G4 got long in the tooth, Motorola screwed apple around for a
> long time getting out faster processors. It was pay back time. It was a
> good thing in the end because Apple had to put out multi processor
> machines
> and develop the OS to keep up.
Well, I see what you are saying and maybe that's the small edge shown on
some apps with OSX and XP on the same machine - assuming, that is it was
transferrable code from the Motorola/IBM thing over to Intel chips. I'm not
sure I'd comfortably make that assumption though.
>
> IBM also screwed Apple around with the G5, they promised Apple 3 GHz
> Processors
> with in a year. Jobs announced it at MacWorld, a year later he had to
> face
> Mac users, I'm sure it was embarrassing. After all the IBM hoopla about
> the new plant, the new processor and their relation ship with Apple, they
> gave a couple of press releases were they said Apple was insignificant to
> their business. When you publicly insult your customer, and you don't
> meet
> your obligations, it shouldn't be a surprise when they go to your
> competitor.
> That's what Apple did. IBM could not get out faster processors on time.
AMD probably would have. I still don't get it why they didn't partner up
with AMD unless AMD didn't want their business because Dell would've flipped
out or Jobs overbearing "my vision, my way" attitude scared them? I remember
the rumors flying about that partnership then the phone line went completely
dead.
>
> I think you and Deej should both send me you old Mac G4s, I'll even give
> you guys something for them if they are running.
Both belong to my day gig, or I'd be happy to unload. They both work fine if
you don't count the old versions of Office I'm forced to contend with or the
KVM issue. I keep my things in pristine shape as a general rule, but took
exception to the tower once that nonsense started. Laptop 10.4 has nary a
scratch on it, it's just horridly slow IMO and the battery is getting kind
of long in tooth..
> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>
>>
>>We'll just have to disagree about it I guess. I still like ya and I =
>>think you're a cool dude, just a bit misguided :) I find nothing ethical
> =
>>in the things I've posted about so far and you could post the same kind
> =
>>of things about MS and we'd see that together. But not the mighty blue =
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| Re: Error 7/7 mystery.... not software. [message #93929 is a reply to message #93920] |
Sun, 23 December 2007 18:50 |
Tom Bruhl
Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
mk3/images/mix_large.jpg/image_view_fullscreen" target="_blank"> http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/828mk3/images/mix_lar ge.jpg/image_view_fullscreen
>>>>
>>>> http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/828mk3/cuemix-fx.html
>>>>
>>>> http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/828mk3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>
>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>> (859) 635-5762
>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Chris Ludwig
>ADK
>chrisl@adkproaudio.com <mailto:chrisl@adkproaudio.com>
>www.adkproaudio.com <http://www.adkproaudio.com/>
>(859) 635-5762"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Why should Apple develop for another platform when it does not benefit
them?
>
>I can cop that so long as you're willing to cop that it's ok, for example,
>for M$ to do the same with, say Office, just for example.
>
>Would that be OK?
>
>Cheers,
>Kim.
Hey MS needs to have Office for Mac, otherwise they'd be in anti trust hot
water again. It's about the only excuse they have.
One more log for the fire. One more law suit for Microsoft.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080223/D8UVQCH80.htmlAaron Allen wrote:
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:47bfbc71@linux...
>> Interesting, so you're saying that any corporation with a lot of money is
>> going to be unethical and corrupt? If so, that would explain a lot...
>
> No, I'm saying that those two particular corp's have shown that money 'n'
> power is around the top of their list and they'll absolutely abuse it for
> more money 'n' power. Greed, money and power aren't necessarily hand in
> hand, but admittedly more often they are than not. Private sector, gov't or
> 3rd world regimes..... it's human trait that those who want to rise to power
> get soaked in it and want more. I don't want that kind of power, therefore I
> do not seek it. Those who do, will.
If I can help, you can send any extra money here and I'll put it to good
use.
>>> Jobs lied about how great Motorola chips were. They were turds.
>> Heh. Well, although there WERE hyped for sure, they were/are hardly turds,
>> Aaron. I'm still running a G4 laptop and a dual G5 desktop.
>
> No it's a lie. That's not ethical. There's no 'hype' or grey area here, it's
> a flat out lie perpetuated by Apple.
Your characterization of the G4 and G5 chips as "turds" is itself
hyperbole. That's an exaggeration when describing working and reasonably
fast chips, among the fastest when they first shipped.
In Apple's case, I call their claims hype because while the G5 WAS the
fastest chip when it came out, that distinction lasted only a few weeks
before it was passed again, overall, by Intel/Athlon. Apple's marketing
department is legendary for using very specific tests to "prove" a speed
advantage, such as individual Photoshop filters that worked better under
Altavec, even if other tests didn't compare so well. I'll grant you that
a lot of companies exaggerate in their advertising claims. But it's easy
enough to check these days with a visit to tech sites for more objective
test results.
> I have everything from a 1.2 up to my newest aquisition Quad Core here
> (unless you count my laptops too, then it starts with a PIII/1.0). I have
> roughly 10 computers here. They all still work, and do what I built them to
> do and well. .
Great. They aren't "turds" then. :^)
> I'm typing this post on an old athlon2800 that still kicks
> ass every single day for me. It's been on every single day for 4 years. Zero
> failures. Home rolled from parts and leftovers and upgrades. It renders
> video, it has multitrack software and a boatload of office apps to boot. Did
> I mention, zero failures? (now I'm tempting the computer Gods to kill it,
> aren't I ahahah?)
Now you've done it! ;^)
>> The G4 laptop runs a lot of apps just fine, I use it for article writing,
>> research, and 2D animation work.
>
> Shoot Jamie, I've got an old Athlon 1.2 and a 1.4 that'll do all that (and
> more.. ) and I think both are older than your G4. And, I can still get parts
> for them (as if I wanted to, but that's not my point)..... will Apple still
> sell you G4/Motorola parts if something dies, without raking your over the
> coals if at all (Also or course, as if you wanted to put more money in that
> rather than shiny'n'new) ?
I dunno, probably (isn't there some law about supporting products for a
certain number of years?) but we're digressing now. My laptop is old, it
has a G4, and it still works fine (other than the hinge, which, BTW, I
consider a design flaw, the newer Macbooks/pros have a more rugged hinge
design). The only thing I've replaced is the battery, which was easily
available and gave it new life while I await the next Macbook Pro model.
>> Not so much for music and video because I have the G5, although my wife
>> uses a slightly newer G4 laptop to completely run her business and do
>> voiceover production. My laptop has a broken hinge, so it's going to be
>> replaced when the next MacBook Pro update comes out (I'm holding out for
>> Penryn).
>
> I'm curious, platform agnostically speaking... why a laptop? Those are
> notoriously more expensive, less empowered and have yesterday's technologies
> in them not to mention the bus length / speed being slower.
The reason laptops are becoming more popular is that they are portable.
And for most tasks they are fast enough. The latest Macbooks/Pros are
probably faster than my G5 at most tasks.
In my wife's case, she moves here computer around quite a bit. It's very
convenient for her. The G4 is still fast enough for what she does.
In my case I have both, and when I get my next laptop it will share
duties with the G5, especially animation rendering. (Although the
OctoMac is VERY tempting for that.)
>> The G5 still rocks in a big way, and even though there are faster machines
>> I'm not in a big hurry to replace it. It still does what I bought it to
>> do, and does it well. I recently added more RAM to it bringing it to
>> 4.5GB, and it has room for up to 8. I also have more than 2 terrabytes of
>> HD space hanging off of it. The expandability has been great.
>
> No G5 here, and no interest in one to be honest. I got plenty of the G3's
> and G4's and I didn't like it :) There's an old saying, Fool me once shame
> on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Having moved up from a dual G4 to a dual G5 I can share that you stopped
one model too soon. Essentially, you fooled yourself without trying by
using your G3/G4 experiences to discount the G5. The G5 is a BIG step up.
> I can't talk much details about it, but suffice to say when time to spec
> some video edit systems for a certain employer I told them 8 Mac towers with
> at least Quad's in them. And 8 licenses of XP w/Bootcamp to go with 'em :)
Apparently that works great if there's some MSWindows software you still
need to run. Not such an odd thing after all, that MSWindows support,
eh? At least for people in your situation. And there are a lot of people
in your situation.
>> Granted, about a month after my G5 came out there were faster Intel/Athlon
>> chips. But it didn't make my G5 quit pulling its weight around here. :^)
>
> Nah, new is always just a day away and I've learned that the next upgrade
> just isn't necessary.
Yep. If what you buy does what you bought it for it's less likely to
become instantly obsolete.
> I kinda like the whole stability thing and cutting
> edge doesn't pay a lot of attention to that 'minor' detail. I finally bought
> myself a quad core a few days ago though and hopefully all the parts will be
> here next week. It oughta scha-weet. I'm pretty sure of this - the
> equivalent of what I bought would be at least 3x the price if it'd been an
> Apple product. Q6600, 250 GB sata, 400 GB sata, 2 GB ram, DVD+-Dual Layer
> drive, TI chipset IEEE1394, 6 USB, legacy P/S2 should I need it, built in
> dual head graphics.... rig ran me about $700. Now THAT is value dude.
Enjoy!
>>> Gates forces you as a business to buy office/OS's through each planned
>>> obsolescene upgrade.
>> If you buy into it. Or you could use Open Office, which is what I do (the
>> NeoOffice version on OSX).
>>
> as do I. I'm not paying that kind of stupid money to Bill & company - but
> this is a thread about vista sucking turned into a thread about mac being
> more ethical than MS. Sorry, I don't buy that.
That's because you're ignoring the actual criminal record Microsoft has
built up. If you step back and consider the bigger picture, you might
change your view.
I can criticize them both for deeds done. But on the scales of justice,
Microsoft's past weighs heavier, based on actual criminal prosecution
(and what was prosecuted was likely just the tip of the iceberg).
>>> Jobs tells you to think you're safe from virii as an ad campaign and
>>> tells you how Mac runs office 'just as well as a PC'. but fails to
>>> mention it's OLD version of office, years old in fact.
>> Sometimes the Mac version of Office has been ahead, sometimes the
>> MSWindows version. Doesn't matter to me because I'm not on that treadmill.
>
> Dude... office 2004 is more than a little behind don'cha think? That'd be a
> 4 year old product. Most computers don't live that long.
Mine do. :^)
The Mac version was ahead when it came out, right? It's just a word
processor/spreadsheet/presentation, what's lacking that the MSWindows
version has? It'll be ahead again when the next update comes out, right?
Any day now...
I admit that I don't follow that product line closely since I don't want
or need it.
>>> There are 60 known virii in the wild for Mac, but you won't hear about
>>> that from Jobs/Apple.
>> Ooh. 60. Wow. That's what, 1/1000th the amount on MSWindows? ;^)
>>
>> Haven't seen any here.
>
> Which is what makes it so dangerous. Mac folks think they're insulated
> completely and they are NOT. Do you have phishing/pharming protection?
Yep, common sense.
> That's another huge Mac misconception. For Jobs & company to mislead their
> users into that situation just to try to make
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| Re: Error 7/7 mystery.... not software. [message #93932 is a reply to message #93929] |
Sun, 23 December 2007 21:53 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
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re the Apple ads saying *hi, I'm a PC... and hi, I'm a Mac* ??
> Apple's making that distinction, not me.
True. IMO they are all personal computers.
>>> You talked about MS stealing the macOS software GUI. Ok, where did Apple
>>> get their code base from for OS-X? Can't see the worm in both apples,
>>> 'eh? <-yes, that was bad pun #2.... but I am a punny guy!>
>> The code base for OSX was derived largely from NeXT, the company Steve
>> Jobs started after been booted out of Apple. I used to work for a NeXT
>> developer doing documentation and testing. Had a cool NeXT cube. Good
>> times!
>
> So, you're saying it is not BSD? Interesting......
Look into it, it's an interesting history. Apple does build on BSD,
growing out of NeXT.
>> I haven't fallen for iPods or iPhones. Yet anyway.
>
> I bet you will. iPOD's rock, but I would steer clear of the cheap seats -
> like anything else in life. I think, however, that I will not buy another
> movie from them because I don't like being locked out of being able to make
> a DVD for backup/viewing outside my computer. That sucks.
> and iTUNES has turned into a fat piece of bloated code IMO as well. I'm
> about to jump to Media Monkey I think.
>
>>
>>> I also thought that the Cinema Display was about the most beautiful
>>> display ever as far back as 4~5 years ago. on the overall though, I
>>> didn't like Apple computer kool-aid any better than MS's kool-aid.
>> Having spent some time working in development environments on multiple
>> platforms (not just Apple and Microsoft), I think both of those flavors of
>> koolaid taste odd. But overall, for the reasons I spelled out in my other
>> post, Microsoft's koolaid is worse. Apple has actually gotten better than
>> they were in the 80s/90s, IMO. I was not a fan of OS9 and before.
>
> I didn't dig ANY os that could crash with unprotected memory. BAD juju man.
> Glad they got that one dealt with.
Indeed. OS9 and before had major limitations and no amount of marketing
could get me to overlook that. OSX is much, much better.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.cm
>>
>>
>>> You're ok in my book man, so don't take any of this all personal or
>>> anything, it's really not meant that way. I haven't forgotten when I had
>>> a problem with a Mac you are the first and only dude offered and followed
>>> through to help me out. Some day I'll get a chance to repay in kind.
>>> AA
>>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com <mailto:nobody@ishere.com>> wrote in message
>>> news:47bf218e$1@linux...
>>> >
>>> > For the record, it was what Apple did to the cloners that drove me
>>> into the
>>> > ever welcoming arms of Redmond. I couldn't afford Apple hardware, but
>>> I could
>>> > afford a Power 603e machine that was my first experience with computer
>>> audio.
>>> > Less than a year after that Apple shut down the cloners and I
>>> realized, 'Hey,
>>> > these are greedy corporate bastards just like Microsoft. And Windows
>>> hardware
>>> > is cheap and I can build my own.' Which lead me to a 400 Mhz Celeron +
>>> Paris,
>>> > and the rest is (grim, money losing, book publishing) history.
>>> >
>>> > Your story is one version. Another is that Power was a smart,
>>> talented, agile
>>> > hardware vendor who was beating the daylights out of Apple because
>>> they were
>>> > everything Apple had long since ceased to be--entrepreneurial and
>>> customer
>>> > oriented.
>>> >
>>> > TCB
>>> >
>>> > "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com <mailto:excelsm@hotmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>"Deej" <noway@jose.net <mailto:noway@jose.net>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com <mailto:excelsm@hotmail.com>>
>>> wrote in message
>>> >>>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market
>>> share?
>>> >> I
>>> >>>
>>> >>>How about the time the pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing
>>> and
>>> > UMaxx
>>> >>
>>> >>>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of
>>> work.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>Deej since you mentioned PowerComputing,there are a few things that
>>> should
>>> >>be noted. As I've said, the cloners ate in to Apple's sales. The
>>> clones
>>> >>advertised mainly in Mac publications to Mac users, If they had
>>> advertised
>>> >>in PC publications and did other forms of advertising to non Mac users
>>> they
>>> >>would have grown the market. They didn't, they cherry picked Apple
>>> sales.
>>> >> One such famous incident was when PowerComputing was directly
>>> competing
>>> >>with Apple by selling 3000 clones to Apple's long time customer
>>> Lockheed
>>> >>Martin, that didn't go over to well. PowerComputing also worked a
>>> deal
>>> > with
>>> >>IBM to get the fastest PowerPC processors before Apple could, this
>>> further
>>> >>cost Apple sales.
>>> >>
>>> >>Steve Jobs went to all the cloners and tried to renegotiate the
>>> licensing
>>> >>prices, the cloners wouldn't hear of it, so Apple did not renew the
>>> licensing
>>> >>with Mac OS 8. Apple did not pull the licensing. The cloners could
>>> still
>>> >>build systems and ship them with Mac OS 7.6 installed, and bundled OS
>>> 8,
>>> >>they chose not to. PowerComputing announced after that, that they
>>> were
>>> > going
>>> >>to start building PCs, which I think they did for a short time. In
>>> the
>>> > end,
>>> >>Apple bought out PowerComputing for 100 million dollars in Apple
>>> stock.
>>> >
>>> >>I think that was pretty generous of Apple. I believe it was up to
>>> Kahng
>>> >>to take care of his workers from there.
>>> >>
>>> >>As far as UMAX, they continued on for years building scanners and
>>> other
>>> > products
>>> >>as they did before they made clones.
>>> >
>
>No additional laws.
James McCloskey wrote:
> I'll mention that Tascam has had this kind of 90 day BS warranty forever also.
> You would think there would be federal laws that would say otherwise.
>
> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>> HI Neil,
>> 90 day warranty and you have to pay a 79.00 fee minimum for replace or
>> repair past that.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> Neil wrote:
>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> HI Lamont,
>>>> All that and still the worst support and worst warranty in the business.
>>>>
>>> What's that... they give you a "waiver warranty"?
>>> (meaning, the warranty's good for as long as you can see the
>>> salesman waving in your rear-view mirror as you're driving
>>> away from the store).
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>> --
>> Chris Ludwig
>> ADK
>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com <mailto:chrisl@adkproaudio.com>
>> www.adkproaudio.com <http://www.adkproaudio.com/>
>> (859) 635-5762
>Hey James - now we're talking - yep, I'm with you on Gibson - pretty poor
leadership happening there in general, but that's a 3rd party developer, not
a computer/OS developer. The same is true with the other examples you cited
- they aren't the computer/OS developer with a primary motivation of selling
the computer system, and being in the position of developing, marketing and
selling the platform those apps run on to the advantage of their own
applications (MS was sued for requiring Explorer in Windows installs, but
Apple gets around this by allowing other apps, but giving preference to
their own - we've heard this from developers, not just users).
Steinberg's development on the Mac side is the same as the PC side - same
version of Nuendo and Cubase released at the same time - no lag in
development there. The fact that Nuendo and Cubase run faster on XP has to
do with the OS and how hardware drivers function on that OS as the computer
hardware is identical (in tests that are being posted now), and the core
code is identical. With v3 and 4, Steinberg went to a common base code so
there would only be minimal differences to implement for each platform, and
for each version. I guessed that many months ago and it was confirmed by
someone working with Steinberg.
PT plugins cost? Yep - it's ridiculous - it's a captive customer base so
they charge more.
Apogee: whether the stats listed by Apogee are really native latency, or
fudged for sake of marketing is an unknown I'm trying to track down, but
according to users I highly respect, they are real numbers - which is great
for users, but not so great when that's tied to Logic on the Mac only. I'm
pretty sure the only DSP happening on Apogee cards, is what RME and MOTU
implement as well - just a method of handling I/O more efficiently and
allowing routing/mixing on the card - but Logic is a native app - it isn't
mixing on the Apogee cards - it's still native, and that's where the true
driver/OS dependant latency numbers show up. If Apogee cards are running
significantly lower latency with core audio than RME or Lynx (which have
been the industry leaders for a long time), then there is something missing
for 3rd party developers.
So, as I said, Apple's moves are very much the same as Digidesign, and since
we seem to agree on Digidesign's practices not being in the best interest of
users, we should be able to agree the same on many of Apple's practices
(locking iPhone to AT&T only, etc).
You asked where these business practices functioned to the detriment of
users - that's always been my biggest beef with Apple. I really don't care
about whether business practices are viewed as "evil" by anyone as many
large companies have a dirty side to them, even if by nature of becoming
bigger than any one individual's ethics.
Dedric
On 2/23/08 1:28 AM, in article 47bfcb36$1@linu
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| Re: Error 7/7 mystery.... ...is still a mystery. [message #93934 is a reply to message #93922] |
Mon, 24 December 2007 00:13 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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Mac? Always a second class citizen.
>
> Did you ever notice that PT plugins cost more than native or VST? Hmmmm...I
> wonder why that is???
>
> One other thing I believe the apogee latency thing has to do with the DSP
> hardware on the apogee cards, not a special deal??? Not the same hardware.
>
> Someone said that Apple was evil, or just as evil as MS, I took issue with
> that.
>
> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>> On 2/22/08 11:22 PM, in article 47bfad7b$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> A lot of this is speculation, not fact. I will say over the years many
>>> companies
>>
>> Maybe, maybe not. So far we haven't found objective Mac users to report
>> anything scientifically yet. But I'm not the only one looking into this,
>> and not the only one proposing that Apple is holding back to make other
> OSX
>> apps and hardware appear inferior (and that was only one example - there
> are
>> others). Some pretty sharp and connected guys are saying this as well,
> so
>> there is more than speculation behind it - the numbers aren't adding up
>> (Nuendo/RME/Lynx aren't performing nearly as well on OSX as on XP, same
>> hardware - so either Apogee is lying about their 96k 1.6ms performance
>> stats, or Apple gave only them the keys to the kernel).
>>
>> Anyone want to loan me a dual quad G5? Seriously. I'm looking for a way
> to
>> make this testing happen objectively and accurately, and I know a few other
>> guys that are as well. If Apple is holding back, users need to know so
> they
>> don't go in expecting unrealistic performance, and why. If not, users need
>> to know which are the best performing software/hardware combos, regardless
>> of Apple/MS preferences. It's kind of a big deal to a lot of users right
>> now, where trying to prove/disprove if Microsoft is more or less evil,
>> really doesn't help us in the least.
>>
>> Dedric
>>
>>> dropped support for the Mac platform, one example was when Parsons dropped
>>> Quick Books for Mac, luckily we got that one back. Mac users have had
> to
>>> deal with this for years.
>>>
>>> Why should Apple develop for another platform when it does not benefit
> them?
>>> They are trying to grow the Mac market not the PC market! I'll remind
> you
>>> that they offered PC users special pricing, including on hardware. PC
> users
>>> were not left out in the cold. If you haven't noticed, Apple unlike MS,
>>> sells integrated hardware and software, they have a different business
> model.
>>> Yes, they use Hardware and software to push each other.
>>>
>>> By the way, if you haven't heard, anti trust cases were brought against
>>> Microsoft,
>>> these cases were adjudicated and Microsoft was found guilty. Thanks to
> Bush
>>> and friends, MS has gotten a slap on the wrist instead of a break up.
> MS
>>> is back to their old tricks.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_v._Microsoft
>>>
>>>
>>> Think what you want!
>>>
>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>> On 2/22/08 8:36 PM, in article 47bf86b2$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> What I do expect you to share is the basic idea that NEITHER of them
>>> are
>>>>>> perfect and NEITHER of them are COMPLETELY evil. They are both a mix.
>>>>>> Sometimes
>>>>>> they see a competitor and use their power to club them over the head
>>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>>> detriment of all of us. Both of them do it. One has more ability to
> do
>>> it
>>>>>> than the other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you give me an example of Apple doing this?
>>>>
>>>> How about more than one:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Shake is a $9900 application in 1999 ($3900 render only)
>>>> 2) Apply buys it, drops the price a couple of times (OSX version less
> than
>>>> other versions), offering free double licenses for users upgrading to
> OSX.
>>>> 3) Apple discontinues Windows support for it.
>>>> 4) Fast forward to 2003, Shake is still $2999 for both OSX and Linux.
>>>> 5) Apple drops the OSX version price to $499. Linux version remains
> $2999.
>>>>
>>>> See more here for the price change details and decide for yourself:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shake_(software)
>>>>
>>>> Just my opinion, but anytime an app is dropped from $3k to $500, selling
>>>> software as a profitable product isn't the goal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Next:
>>>> 1) Apple buys Emagic (there's a song in this one somewhere...;-)
>>>> 2) Drops PC support for Logic promptly.
>>>> 3) Slow development ensues...then finally core audio appears
>>>> 4) Apple signs exclusive deal with Apogee for Symphony, Ensemble, etc
> for
>>>> Logic/Mac only
>>>> 5) Symphony reports lower latency and better performance than other
> apps
>>>> under core audio
>>>> 6) Speculation (no, I can't prove it - yet) is that Apple gave Apogee
> lower
>>>> level access to core audio that isn't in the SDK, thereby giving the
>>>> Apogee/Logic combo a significant edge over Digital Performer,
>>>> Nuendo/Cubase,
>>>> RME, MOTU, Digidesign, etc.
>>>> 7) Apple drops the price of Logic to $500, with additional software/etc
>>>> thrown in (imho, this is below average market value for a DAW software
> and
>>>> most likely a loss leader).
>>>> 8) Why? To sell Macs and Apogee interfaces. Logic is priced too low
> to
>>> be
>>>> a profit center - it's just a marketing tool now to expand the Mac's
>>>> position in consumer, prosumer, hobby, and beginner, lower end musician
>>>> markets, to the detriment of other 3rd party companies also developing
> for
>>>> the platform.
>>>>
>>>> In both cases, Apple is using applications to push their hardware, even
>>>> though there are competing applications, and the Microsoft argument would
>>>> suggest that using applications and exclusivity of them, and hardware,
> is
>>> a
>>>> conflict of interest for an operating system developer, much less a
>>>> computer
>>>> builder.
>>>>
>>>> Just my .02 - can't prove it any more than anyone can *prove* Microsoft
>>> is
>>>> evil. I don't like MS, but Apple isn't making friends in my end of the
>>> pro
>>>> audio world - just putting this in perspective. Btw, I'm not the only
> one
>>>> with this supposition - there are some other well respected audio people
>>> in
>>>> agreement.
>>>>
>>>> Btw - didn't post this to get deeper into an argument - just since you
> asked
>>>> for an example, and I had read the same supposition of Apple's move with
>>>> core audio from another Nuendo user just today, so might as well pass
> it
>>> on
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>> I don't hate Apple - but I do hate exclusive deals, and lock outs that
> do
>>>> nothing but hurt the consumer by limiting options. I have yet to verify
>>>> that core audio really is faster with Apogee interfaces, so take that
> with
>>> a
>>>> grain of salt - Apogee claims they are, of course. Point is, if to get
>>> the
>>>> most out of your Mac for audio, you not only have to buy and Apogee
>>>> interface (an Apple partner), but Logic as well, and don't have the option
>>>> of running a MOTU interface, RME, Lynx, M-Audio, etc with any other
>>>> software, your are sacrificing options.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like a text book Digidesign move to me, but it's Apple doing the
>>>> price cuts and exclusive deals to undercut the market and sell more Macs
>>> and
>>>> other Apple-partner products. If there were no Mac support from other
>>>> companies (MOTU, RME, Lynx, etc), you could call it "their product, their
>>>> market", but we are comparing operating systems and computers here, so
> that
>>>> doesn't stand. It may not be illegal (but I believe it is close), but
> it
>>> is
>>>> hurting consumers.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dedric
>>>>
>>>
>>
>You need to get you some of that Oxycontin stuff. It will be your friend
really quick and forever if you're not careful.
Does it ever bother you that we. the public, can now tell doctors what
prescription drugs we think they should prescribe for us thanks to TV ads?
"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:v8svr3tv0ka7kugogtk9u11l1t65h2luto@4ax.com...
>i don't see what's so great about the big V; 2 aspirin seem to do more
> for me than the Vicodin ES.
>
> On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:21:05 -0700, "Mr. Simplicity" <noway@jose.net>
> wrote:
>
>>My Phenergan/Codiene cough syrup can kick your Vicodin's butt any day.
>>
>>
>>"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:uhatr3leus43r9373l4j1luoi4mjf0la1s@4ax.com...
>>>i don't get it...must be the vicodin. ;o)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 23:05:52 -0600, "Aa
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| Re: Error 7/7 mystery.... not software. [message #93940 is a reply to message #93932] |
Mon, 24 December 2007 06:58 |
Tom Bruhl
Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
oud to cloud, playing the harp and
>>>>singing. They have a
>>>> good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours
>>>>have gone by and St.
>>>> Peter returns.
>>>>
>>>>"Well then, you've spent a day in hell and another in
>>>>heaven. Now choose your eternity."
>>>>
>>>>The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers:
>>>>"Well, I would
>>>> never have said it before, I mean heaven has been
>>>>delightful, but I think
>>>> I would be better off in hell."
>>>>
>>>>So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes
>>>>down, down, down to hell.
>>>>
>>>>Now the doors of the elevator open and he's in the
>>>>middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage.
>>>>
>>>>He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up
>>>>the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from
>>>>above.
>>>>
>>>>The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around
>>>>his shoulder. "I don't understand," stammers the senator. "Yesterday
>>>>I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate
>>>>lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time.
>>>>Now
>>>>there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable.
>>>>What happened?"
>>>>
>>>>The devil looks at him, smiles and says, "Yesterday we
>>>>were campaigning...... Today you voted."
>>>>
>>>
>>
>Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>Hey James - now we're talking - yep, I'm with you on Gibson - pretty poor
>leadership happening there in general, but that's a 3rd party developer,
not
>a computer/OS developer. The same is true with the other examples you cited
>- they aren't the computer/OS developer with a primary motivation of selling
>the computer system, and being in the position of developing, marketing
and
>selling the platform those apps run on to the advantage of their own
>applications (MS was sued for requiring Explorer in Windows installs, but
>Apple gets around this by allowing other apps, but giving preference to
>their own - we've heard this from developers, not just users).
>
>Steinberg's development on the Mac side is the same as the PC side - same
>version of Nuendo and Cubase released at the same time - no lag in
>development there. The fact that Nuendo and Cubase run faster on XP has
to
>do with the OS and how hardware drivers function on that OS as the computer
>hardware is identical (in tests that are being posted now), and the core
>code is identical. With v3 and 4, Steinberg went to a common base code
so
>there would only be minimal differences to implement for each platform,
and
>for each version. I guessed that many months ago and it was confirmed by
>someone working with Steinberg.
>
There was a lag for a couple of years. I believe the Mac version used an
older audio engine for a while. Now Apple is on Intel, well...
>PT plugins cost? Yep - it's ridiculous - it's a captive customer base so
>they charge more.
>
I agree, also keep in mind that, that proprietary development does cost more
money.
>Apogee: whether the stats listed by Apogee are really native latency, or
>fudged for sake of marketing is an unknown I'm trying to track down, but
>according to users I highly respect, they are real numbers - which is great
>for users, but not so great when that's tied to Logic on the Mac only.
I'm
>pretty sure the only DSP happening on Apogee cards, is what RME and MOTU
>implement as well - just a method of handling I/O more efficiently and
>allowing routing/mixing on the card - but Logic is a native app - it isn't
>mixing on the Apogee cards - it's still native, and that's where the true
>driver/OS dependant latency numbers show up. If Apogee cards are running
>significantly lower latency with core audio than RME or Lynx (which have
>been the industry leaders for a long time), then there is something missing
>for 3rd party developers.
Your making assumptions about Apple and Apogee, you don't know, and neither
do I, but it is likely the hardware. Not all hardware is created equal.
>
>So, as I said, Apple's moves are very much the same as Digidesign, and since
>we seem to agree on Digidesign's practices not being in the best interest
of
>users, we should be able to agree the same on many of Apple's practices
>(locking iPhone to AT&T only, etc).
Apple wasn't in the telecommunications business, they needed a partner to
get in the game, AT&T was the biggest in the US. There exclusive deal is
temporary, I think you might find this out tuesday???
>
>You asked where these business practices functioned to the detriment of
>users - that's always been my biggest beef with Apple. I really don't care
>about whether business practices are viewed as "evil" by anyone as many
>large companies have a dirty side to them, even if by nature of becoming
>bigger than any one individual's ethics.
>
>Dedric
Again, your making assumptions about Apple, you don't know. No I don't agree,
you can't tie Apple to Digidesign, they're not the same. Apple does support
it's other developers. Who's to say this pile isn't being leaked covertly
by Apogee's competitors? Anybody can make blind accusations.
Apple supports it's customers generally speaking. They continue to develop
their products like Logic and FCP. Generally speaking, Apple makes great
products that work with out a bunch of hassle, there is value in that, even
at what you guys consider a premium price.
>
>On 2/23/08 1:28 AM, in article 47bfcb36$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey Gibson bought opcode and dropped PC development, what do you think
about
>> that? Hey where's the Mac versions of Cakewalk, sonar, Audition, Acid,
Vegas,
>> Sound forge, etc? What about the slow development of Steinberg products
>> for Mac? Always a second class citizen.
>>
>> Did you ever notice that PT plugins cost more than native or VST? Hmmmm...I
>> wonder why that is???
>>
>> One other thing I believe the apogee latency thing has to do with the
DSP
>> hardware on the apogee cards, not a special deal??? Not the same hardware.
>>
>> Someone said that Apple was evil, or just as evil as MS, I took issue
with
>> that.
>>
>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>> On 2/22/08 11:22 PM, in article 47bfad7b$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> A lot of this is speculation, not fact. I will say over the years many
>>>> companies
>>>
>>> Maybe, maybe not. So far we haven't found objective Mac users to report
>>> anything scientifically yet. But I'm not the only one looking into this,
>>> and not the only one proposing that Apple is holding back to make other
>> OSX
>>> apps and hardware appear inferior (and that was only one example - there
>> are
>>> others). Some pretty sharp and connected guys are saying this as well,
>> so
>>> there is more than speculation behind it - the numbers aren't adding
up
>>> (Nuendo/RME/Lynx aren't performing nearly as well on OSX as on XP, same
>>> hardware - so either Apogee is lying about their 96k 1.6ms performance
>>> stats, or Apple gave only them the keys to the kernel).
>>>
>>> Anyone want to loan me a dual quad G5? Seriously. I'm looking for a
way
>> to
>>> make this testing happen objectively and accurately, and I know a few
other
>>> guys that are as well. If Apple is holding back, users need to know
so
>> they
>>> don't go in expecting unrealistic performance, and why. If not, users
need
>>> to know which are the best performing software/hardware combos, regardless
>>> of Apple/MS preferences. It's kind of a big deal to a lot of users right
>>> now, where trying to prove/disprove if Microsoft is more or less evil,
>>> really doesn't help us in the least.
>>>
>>> Dedric
>>>
>>>> dropped support for the Mac platform, one example was when Parsons dropped
>>>> Quick Books for Mac, luckily we got that one back. Mac users have had
>> to
>>>> deal with this for years.
>>>>
>>>> Why should Apple develop for another platform when it does not benefit
>> them?
>>>> They are trying to grow the Mac market not the PC market! I'll remind
>> you
>>>> that they offered PC users special pricing, including on hardware.
PC
>> users
>>>> were not left out in the cold. If you haven't noticed, Apple unlike
MS,
>>>> sells integrated hardware and software, they have a different business
>> model.
>>>> Yes, they use Hardware and software to push each other.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, if you haven't heard, anti trust cases were brought against
>>>> Microsoft,
>>>> these cases were adjudicated and Microsoft was found guilty. Thanks
to
>> Bush
>>>> and friends, MS has gotten a slap on the wrist instead of a break up.
>> MS
>>>> is back to their old tricks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_v._Microsoft
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Think what you want!
>>>>
>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 2/22/08 8:36 PM, in article 47bf86b2$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> What I do expect you to share is the basic idea that NEITHER of them
>>>> are
>>>>>>> perfect and NEITHER of them are COMPLETELY evil. They are both a
mix.
>>>>>>> Sometimes
>>>>>>> they see a competitor and use their power to club them over the head
>>>> to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> detriment of all of us. Both of them do it. One has more ability
to
>> do
>>>> it
>>>>>>> than the other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you give me an example of Apple doing this?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about more than one:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Shake is a $9900 application in 1999 ($3900 render only)
>>>>> 2) Apply buys it, drops the price a couple of times (OSX version less
>> than
>>>>> other versions), offering free double licenses for users upgrading
to
>> OSX.
>>>>> 3) Apple discontinues Windows support for it.
>>>>> 4) Fast forward to 2003, Shake is still $2999 for both OSX and Linux.
>>>>> 5) Apple drops the OSX version price to $499. Linux version remains
>> $2999.
>>>>>
>>>>> See more here for the price change details and decide for yourself:
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shake_(software)
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my opinion, but anytime an app is dropped from $3k to $500, selling
>>>>> software as a profitable product isn't the goal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Next:
>>>>> 1) Apple buys Emagic (there's a song in this one somewhere...;-)
>>>>> 2) Drops PC support for Logic promptly.
>>>>> 3) Slow development ensues...then finally core audio appears
>>>>> 4) Apple signs exclusive deal with Apogee for Symphony, Ensemble,
etc
>> for
>>>>> Logic/Mac only
>>>>> 5) Symphony reports lower latency and better performance than other
>> apps
>>>>> under core audio
>>>>> 6) Speculation (no, I can't prove it - yet) is that Apple gave Apogee
>> lower
>>>>> level access to core audio that isn't in the SDK, thereby giving the
>>>>> Apogee/Logic combo a significant edge over Digital Performer,
>>>>> Nuendo/Cubase,
>>>>> RME, MOTU, Digidesign, etc.
>>>>> 7) Apple drops the price of Logic to $500, with additional software/etc
>>>>> thrown in (imho, this is below average market value for a DAW software
>> and
>>>>> most likely a loss leader).
>>>>> 8) Why? To sell Macs and Apogee interfaces. Logic is priced too
low
>> to
>>>> be
>>>>> a profit center - it's just a marketing tool now to expand the Mac's
>>>>> position in consumer, prosumer, hobby, and beginner, lower end musician
>>>>> markets, to the detriment of other 3rd party companies also developing
>> for
>>>>> the platform.
>>>>>
>>>>> In both cases, Apple is using applications to push their hardware,
even
>>>>> though there are competing applications, and the Microsoft argument
would
>>>>> suggest that using applications and exclusivity of them, and hardware,
>> is
>>>> a
>>>>> conflict of interest for an operating system developer, much less a
>>>>> computer
>>>>> builder.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my .02 - can't prove it any more than anyone can *prove* Microsoft
>>>> is
>>>>> evil. I don't like MS, but Apple isn't making friends in my end of
the
>>>> pro
>>>>> audio world - just putting this in perspective. Btw, I'm not the only
>> one
>>>>> with this supposition - there are some other well respected audio people
>>>> in
>>>>> agreement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Btw - didn't post this to get deeper into an argument - just since
you
>> asked
>>>>> for an example, and I had read the same supposition of Apple's move
with
>>>>> core audio from another Nuendo user just today, so might as well pass
>> it
>>>> on
>>>>> here.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't hate Apple - but I do hate exclusive deals, and lock outs that
>> do
>>>>> nothing but hurt the consumer by limiting options. I have yet to verify
>>>>> that core audio really is faster with Apogee interfaces, so take that
>> with
>>>> a
>>>>> grain of salt - Apogee claims they are, of course. Point is, if to
get
>>>> the
>>>>> most out of your Mac for audio, you not only have to buy and Apogee
>>>>> interface (an Apple partner), but Logic as well, and don't have the
option
>>>>> of running a MOTU interface, RME, Lynx, M-Audio, etc with any other
>>>>> software, your are sacrificing options.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like a text book Digidesign move to me, but it's Apple doing
the
>>>>> price cuts and exclusive deals to undercut the market and sell more
Macs
>>>> and
>>>>> other Apple-partner products. If there were no Mac support from other
>>>>> companies (MOTU, RME, Lynx, etc), you could call it "their product,
their
>>>>> market", but we are comparing operating systems and computers here,
so
>> that
>>>>> doesn't stand. It may not be illegal (but I believe it is close),
but
>> it
>>>> is
>>>>> hurting consumers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>He kind of likes the snow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sUL0KCIc48&feature=relat edHmmm...can we hear the difference a saturday evening...hmmmm?-;)
"John" <no@no.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:47bf0769$1@linux...
>
> isn't it 3ms latency and not 0.03ms ?Don't be sorry, John. It will all get an end.
erlilo
"John" <nah@no.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:47bcbbb2$1@linux...
> And to think all I wanted to do was to take a nice shit on Vista. Look at
> the trouble I've caused. I'm sorry.
>
> John
>
> casual observer wrote:
>>> I always hear something stupid like, somebody wanting to buy movies from
>>> the iTunes store to play on their MS Zune ( an MS rip off of the iPod).
>>
>>
>> So why aren't you all bent out of shape that the iPod was "ripped off"
>> from
>> Compaq and HanGo (which beat the iPod by 2 years)? Being the device that
>> breathed new life into the company, isn't that a pretty major "crime"?
>> Feel
>> free to rationalize how that is different than MS "stealing" their OS."James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47c06f32$1@linux...
>>PT plugins cost? Yep - it's ridiculous - it's a captive customer base so
>>they charge more.
>>
> I agree, also keep in mind that, that proprietary development does cost
> more
> money.
That's what Digi claims, but in truth it doesn't cost more money - it costs
the same. The
dsp design is the significant portion of any plugin, not the interface to
the processor.
Digi is just using it as an excuse. It's not a new one though - that's been
the case in the tech
industry for years - proprietary formats (although the Motorola dsps Digi
uses are as commonplace
and bland as it gets), do garner higher prices, regardless of development
time.
> Your making assumptions about Apple and Apogee, you don't know, and
> neither
> do I, but it is likely the hardware. Not all hardware is created equal.
Not as much of an assumption as you are guessing. No, Apogee's hardware
isn't going to offload
native mixing, plugin dsp or disk streaming from Logic any more than any
other audio interface. I do know that for a fact.
And that is what we are talking about: latency to VSTi's, plugins, mixing
load, etc - round trip in and out of the native app. Even TDM doesn't do
that for "native" plugins - only for TDM plugins that run on the hardware
(as Paris' EQ, comps, etc did). Apogee's hardware doesn't do any offloading
of native mixing and plugin processing. AU plugins still run native to the
Mac cpu. Apogee's system is just an I/O card like any other (a good one no
doubt, but no different in terms of native interface to drivers, and the
native app than RME, MOTU, etc).
Check the plugin reports here:
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony_performance.p hp
These are native plugins. If anyone has more details, I'm all ears. The
reason claimed that Apogee is getting higher plugin counts with Symphony
than other hardware would be it's implementation with core audio (I would
like to know what they compared to, but it's probably RME or MOTU). Since
Apogee is new to the interface driver game, and initial performance was
quite poor compared to RME, etc, it isn't much of an assumption that they
most likely got help from Apple to boost their performance past hardware
they weren't competing with before (and probably hired some more savvy
programmers too - but remember, RME (and Lynx on the PC side) have led the
performance marks for years - it isn't likely Apogee would just jump into
the game and all of a sudden deliver a much faster core audio implementation
when RME has had more time with it and much more driver experience in
general, unless RME etc didn't know something about core audio that Apogee
does.
No, this isn't coming from Apogee's competitors. It's coming from guys who
build DAWs, run high end systems, etc.
You might be surprised at how little stake in this these guys have, and I
have (I'm personally just trying to find out if I would be wasting my time
moving to a Mac down the road, or if performance really is comparable to a
WinXP system). It's also coming from my own knowledge of this industry
after being involved in it for close to 20 years now, and having been a
former hardware/software developer, with a strong background in digital
audio, dsp, etc. To the outside observer, Apple (and many manufacturers)
make their products appear to function almost "magically", and that's fine,
but it isn't the real technical story. The latter is what gains us the last
10-15% performance and reliability when comparing hardware and software.
The former is just fun to talk about.
Regards,
Dedric
>
>
>>
>>So, as I said, Apple's moves are very much the same as Digidesign, and
>>since
>>we seem to agree on Digidesign's practices not being in the best interest
> of
>>users, we should be able to agree the same on many of Apple's practices
>>(locking iPhone to AT&T only, etc).
>
> Apple wasn't in the telecommunications business, they needed a partner to
> get in the game, AT&T was the biggest in the US. There exclusive deal is
> temporary, I think you might find this out tuesday???
>>
>>You asked where these business practices functioned to the detriment of
>>users - that's always been my biggest beef with Apple. I really don't
>>care
>>about whether business practices are viewed as "evil" by anyone as many
>>large companies have a dirty side to them, even if by nature of becoming
>>bigger than any one individual's ethics.
>>
>>Dedric
>
> Again, your making assumptions about Apple, you don't know. No I don't
> agree,
> you can't tie Apple to Digidesign, they're not the same. Apple does
> support
> it's other developers. Who's to say this pile isn't being leaked covertly
> by Apogee's competitors? Anybody can make blind accusations.
>
> Apple supports it's customers generally speaking. They continue to
> develop
> their products like Logic and FCP. Generally speaking, Apple makes great
> products that work with out a bunch of hassle, there is value in that,
> even
> at what you guys consider a premium price.
>
>>
>>On 2/23/08 1:28 AM, in article 47bfcb36$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hey Gibson bought opcode and dropped PC development, what do you think
> about
>>> that? Hey where's the Mac versions of Cakewalk, sonar, Audition, Acid,
> Vegas,
>>> Sound forge, etc? What about the slow development of Steinberg products
>>> for Mac? Always a second class citizen.
>>>
>>> Did you ever notice that PT plugins cost more than native or VST?
>>> Hmmmm...I
>>> wonder why that is???
>>>
>>> One other thing I believe the apogee latency thing has to do with the
> DSP
>>> hardware on the apogee cards, not a special deal??? Not the same
>>> hardware.
>>>
>>> Someone said that Apple was evil, or just as evil as MS, I took issue
> with
>>> that.
>>>
>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>> On 2/22/08 11:22 PM, in article 47bfad7b$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A lot of this is speculation, not fact. I will say over the years
>>>>> many
>>>>> companies
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, maybe not. So far we haven't found objective Mac users to
>>>> report
>>>> anything scientifically yet. But I'm not the only one looking into
>>>> this,
>>>> and not the only one proposing that Apple is holding back to make other
>>> OSX
>>>> apps and hardware appear inferior (and that was only one example -
>>>> there
>>> are
>>>> others). Some pretty sharp and connected guys are saying this as well,
>>> so
>>>> there is more than speculation behind it - the numbers aren't adding
> up
>>>> (Nuendo/RME/Lynx aren't performing nearly as well on OSX as on XP, same
>>>> hardware - so either Apogee is lying about their 96k 1.6ms performance
>>>> stats, or Apple gave only them the keys to the kernel).
>>>>
>>>> Anyone want to loan me a dual quad G5? Seriously. I'm looking for a
> way
>>> to
>>>> make this testing happen objectively and accurately, and I know a few
> other
>>>> guys that are as well. If Apple is holding back, users need to know
> so
>>> they
>>>> don't go in expecting unrealistic performance, and why. If not, users
> need
>>>> to know which are the best performing software/hardware combos,
>>>> regardless
>>>> of Apple/MS preferences. It's kind of a big deal to a lot of users
>>>> right
>>>> now, where trying to prove/disprove if Microsoft is more or less evil,
>>>> really doesn't help us in the least.
>>>>
>>>> Dedric
>>>>
>>>>> dropped support for the Mac platform, one example was when Parsons
>>>>> dropped
>>>>> Quick Books for Mac, luckily we got that one back. Mac users have had
>>> to
>>>>> deal with this for years.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why should Apple develop for another platform when it does not benefit
>>> them?
>>>>> They are trying to grow the Mac market not the PC market! I'll remind
>>> you
>>>>> that they offered PC users special pricing, including on hardware.
> PC
>>> users
>>>>> were not left out in the cold. If you haven't noticed, Apple unlike
> MS,
>>>>> sells integrated hardware and software, they have a different business
>>> model.
>>>>> Yes, they use Hardware and software to push each other.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, if you haven't heard, anti trust cases were brought
>>>>> against
>>>>> Microsoft,
>>>>> these cases were adjudicated and Microsoft was found guilty. Thanks
> to
>>> Bush
>>>>> and friends, MS has gotten a slap on the wrist instead of a break up.
>>> MS
>>>>> is back to their old tricks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_v._Microsoft
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Think what you want!
>>>>>
>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/22/08 8:36 PM, in article 47bf86b2$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> What I do expect you to share is the basic idea that NEITHER of
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> perfect and NEITHER of them are COMPLETELY evil. They are both a
> mix.
>>>>>>>> Sometimes
>>>>>>>> they see a competitor and use their power to club them over the
>>>>>>>> head
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> detriment of all of us. Both of them do it. One has more ability
> to
>>> do
>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> than the other.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you give me an example of Apple doing this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about more than one:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Shake is a $9900 application in 1999 ($3900 render only)
>>>>>> 2) Apply buys it, drops the price a couple of times (OSX version
>>>>>> less
>>> than
>>>>>> other versions), offering free double licenses for users upgrading
> to
>>> OSX.
>>>>>> 3) Apple discontinues Windows support for it.
>>>>>> 4) Fast forward to 2003, Shake is still $2999 for both OSX and
>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>> 5) Apple drops the OSX version price to $499. Linux version remains
>>> $2999.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See more here for the price change details and decide for yourself:
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shake_(software)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just my opinion, but anytime an app is dropped from $3k to $500,
>>>>>> selling
>>>>>> software as a profitable product isn't the goal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Next:
>>>>>> 1) Apple buys Emagic (there's a song in this one somewhere...;-)
>>>>>> 2) Drops PC support for Logic promptly.
>>>>>> 3) Slow development ensues...then finally core audio appears
>>>>>> 4) Apple signs exclusive deal with Apogee for Symphony, Ensemble,
> etc
>>> for
>>>>>> Logic/Mac only
>>>>>> 5) Symphony reports lower latency and better performance than other
>>> apps
>>>>>> under core audio
>>>>>> 6) Speculation (no, I can't prove it - yet) is that Apple gave
>>>>>> Apogee
>>> lower
>>>>>> level access to core audio that isn't in the SDK, thereby giving the
>>>>>> Apogee/Logic combo a significant edge over Digital Performer,
>>>>>> Nuendo/Cubase,
>>>>>> RME, MOTU, Digidesign, etc.
>>>>>> 7) Apple drops the price of Logic to $500, with additional
>>>>>> software/etc
>>>>>> thrown in (imho, this is below average market value for a DAW
>>>>>> software
>>> and
>>>>>> most likely a loss leader).
>>>>>> 8) Why? To sell Macs and Apogee interfaces. Logic is priced too
> low
>>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>>> a profit center - it's just a marketing tool now to expand the Mac's
>>>>>> position in consumer, prosumer, hobby, and beginner, lower end
>>>>>> musician
>>>>>> markets, to the detriment of other 3rd party companies also
>>>>>> developing
>>> for
>>>>>> the platform.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In both cases, Apple is using applications to push their hardware,
> even
>>>>>> though there are competing applications, and the Microsoft argument
> would
>>>>>> suggest that using applications and exclusivity of them, and
>>>>>> hardware,
>>> is
>>>>> a
>>>>>> conflict of interest for an operating system developer, much less a
>>>>>> computer
>>>>>> builder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just my .02 - can't prove it any more than anyone can *prove*
>>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>> is
>>>>>> evil. I don't like MS, but Apple isn't making friends in my end of
> the
>>>>> pro
>>>>>> audio world - just putting this in perspective. Btw, I'm not the
>>>>>> only
>>> one
>>>>>> with this supposition - there are some other well respected audio
>>>>>> people
>>>>> in
>>>>>> agreement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Btw - didn't post this to get deeper into an argument - just since
> you
>>> asked
>>>>>> for an example, and I had read the same supposition of Apple's move
> with
>>>>>> core audio from another Nuendo user just today, so might as well pass
>>> it
>>>>> on
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't hate Apple - but I do hate exclusive deals, and lock outs
>>>>>> that
>>> do
>>>>>> nothing but hurt the consumer by limiting options. I have yet to
>>>>>> verify
>>>>>> that core audio really is faster with Apogee interfaces, so take that
>>> with
>>>>> a
>>>>>> grain of salt - Apogee claims they are, of course. Point is, if to
> get
>>>>> the
>>>>>> most out of your Mac for audio, you not only have to buy and Apogee
>>>>>> interface (an Apple partner), but Logic as well, and don't have the
> option
>>>>>> of running a MOTU interface, RME, Lynx, M-Audio, etc with any other
>>>>>> software, your are sacrificing options.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like a text book Digidesign move to me, but it's Apple doing
> the
>>>>>> price cuts and exclusive deals to undercut the market and sell more
> Macs
>>>>> and
>>>>>> other Apple-partner products. If there were no Mac support from
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> companies (MOTU, RME, Lynx, etc), you could call it "their product,
> their
>>>>>> market", but we are comparing operating systems and computers here,
> so
>>> that
>>>>>> doesn't stand. It may not be illegal (but I believe it is close),
> but
>>> it
>>>>> is
>>>>>> hurting consumers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>I reinstalled XP and threw Vista in the shitter. Sidebar cool...dreamscenes
cool.... dreamscene freezing when i maximize a window ....not cool....
|
|
|
|
| Re: Error 7/7 mystery.... ...is still a mystery. [message #93960 is a reply to message #93934] |
Mon, 24 December 2007 11:14 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
e, but it's very very rare. They do a
long
>>>> more wrong IMHO than you give them credit for, and claiming they don't
>> buy
>>>> market share, well...
>>>>
>>>> <rant off>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Kim.
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>I think what they were getting at is using one's market share and
>financial resources to give things away that smaller companies
>simply cannot afford to match.
Kinda. Personally I think in a fair world you'd sell what you sell at an
appropriate price and that would be the game. If somebody sells honey let
them do that. As soon as car manufacturers give away honey for free to whoever
buys their car you're doing some pretty hefty stuff against poor people who
are trying to make an honest living in the honey game. Of course were the
government to start banning free stuff the public would scream because honody
seems to notice that you pay for it somehow in the end regardless.
But Bill certainly has a point or two. It's certainly not uncommon, and this
sure is a pointless rant. ;o)
Cheers,
Kim.yeah it bothers me that some doctors will allow that to happen.
actually the post op pain is was less than the pre op daily
grind...for which i took nothing but the 81mg aspirin you would do for
the heart thing.
this typing with a hand that looks like a cows udder is a bit tedious
though.
On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 11:26:35 -0700, "Mr. Simplicity" <noway@jose.net>
wrote:
>You need to get you some of that Oxycontin stuff. It will be your friend
>really quick and forever if you're not careful.
>
>Does it ever bother you that we. the public, can now tell doctors what
>prescription drugs we think they should prescribe for us thanks to TV ads?
>
>
>
>"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:v8svr3tv0ka7kugogtk9u11l1t65h2luto@4ax.com...
>>i don't see what's so great about the big V; 2 aspirin seem to do more
>> for me than the Vicodin ES.
>>
>> On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:21:05 -0700, "Mr. Simplicity" <noway@jose.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>My Phenergan/Codiene cough syrup can kick your Vicodin's butt any day.
>>>
>>>
>>>"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:uhatr3leus43r9373l4j1luoi4mjf0la1s@4ax.com...
>>>>i don't get it...must be the vicodin. ;o)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 23:05:52 -0600, "Aaron Allen"
>>>> <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>While walking down the street one day a US
>>>>>senator is tragically hit by a truck and dies.
>>>>>His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at
>>>>>the Golden Gate.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Welcome to heaven," says St. Peter. "Before you
>>>>>settle in, it seems
>>>>> there is a problem. We seldom see a high official
>>>>>around these parts,
>>>>> you see, so we're not sure what to do with you." "No
>>>>>problem, just
>>>>> let me in," says the man. "Well, I'd like to, but I
>>>>>have orders from
>>>>> higher up. What we'll do is have you spend one day
>>>>>in hell and one in
>>>>> heaven. Then you can choose where to spend
>>>>>eternity." "Really, I've made
>>>>> up my mind. I want to be in heaven," says the
>>>>>senator. "I'm sorry, but
>>>>> we have our rules."
>>>>>
>>>>>And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator
>>>>>and he goes down,
>>>>> down, down to hell. The doors open and he finds
>>>>>himself in the middle
>>>>> of a green golf course. In the distance is a
>>>>>clubhouse and standing in
>>>>> front of it are all his friends and other politicians
>>>>>who had worked
>>>>> with him.
>>>>>
>>>>>Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run
>>>>>to greet him,
>>>>> shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times
>>>>>they had while
>>>>> getting rich at the expense of the people. They play
>>>>>a friendly game of golf
>>>>> and then dine on lobster, caviar and champagne.
>>>>>
>>>>>Also present is the devil, who really is a very
>>>>>friendly guy who has a
>>>>> good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having
>>>>>such a good time
>>>>> that before he realizes it, it is time to go.
>>>>>
>>>>>Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while
>>>>>the elevator
>>>>> rises...
>>>>>
>>>>>The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on
>>>>>heaven where St.
>>>>> Peter is waiting for him.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Now it's time to visit heaven."
>>>>>
>>>>>So, 24 hours pass with the senator joining a group of
>>>>>contented souls
>>>>> moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and
>>>>>singing. They have a
>>>>> good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours
>>>>>have gone by and St.
>>>>> Peter returns.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Well then, you've spent a day in hell and another in
>>>>>heaven. Now choose your eternity."
>>>>>
>>>>>The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers:
>>>>>"Well, I would
>>>>> never have said it before, I mean heaven has been
>>>>>delightful, but I think
>>>>> I would be better off in hell."
>>>>>
>>>>>So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes
>>>>>down, down, down to hell.
>>>>>
>>>>>Now the doors of the elevator open and he's in the
>>>>>middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage.
>>>>>
>>>>>He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up
>>>>>the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from
>>>>>above.
>>>>>
>>>>>The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around
>>>>>his shoulder. "I don't understand," stammers the senator. "Yesterday
>>>>>I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate
>>>>>lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time.
>>>>>Now
>>>>>there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable.
>>>>>What happened?"
>>>>>
>>>>>The devil looks at him, smiles and says, "Yesterday we
>>>>>were campaigning...... Today you voted."
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>this is on a brand new dell m6300 dual core laptop with 4 gb ram that rates
4.8 out of 5 on microsoft's own performance test. win98 on a 586 ran faster.i tried to buy inflatable balls that walmart sells at 93 cents a piece already
inflated. i called the company that makes them and said i wanted a box of
100 DEFLATED and they said it would cost me 95 cents plus shipping. that's
the problem ! big business kills little businessYep, Lotsa stuff sucks!
Gotta tell you guys about one of my Behringer experiences.
I'll just copy/paste from here:
Summary: 240v AC shock hazard.
Product Level 1: BCA2000 B-CONTROL AUDIO
Category Level 1: Operational Tech Support / Post-Sales
Date Created: 05/08/2007 01.18 AM
Last Updated: 05/08/2007 01.18 AM
Status: Unresolved
Software version:
Serial number:
Discussion Thread
------------------------------------------------------------ ---
Customer (Kim Webster) - 05/08/2007 01.18 AM
Greetings.
I purchased this unit a couple of years ago with a specific use in
mind, which never eventuated.
Hence, it has been sitting on a shelf until now. (Warranty has
expired).
I decided to donate it to a friend, for use with his laptop,
but figured I should test it first.
I powered up the unit, (unconnected to any external equipment), and received
a fairly hefty shock
when touching the rear panel audio sockets.
I powered down, then took my trusty multi-meter out of the cupboard.
(I am an ex- Defence technician).
Sure enough, I measured anywhere between 50-240 VAC relative to mains
ground, depending on which rear-panel socket I tested.
Figuring I had no comeback as far as warranty goes, I decided to open
the unit to investigate further.
I found that the unit employs a switch-mode power supply to power the
circuitry.
Given the amount of exposed steel in the construction of this unit,
coupled with the fact that it does employ a switch-mode power supply,
(mounted on the main circuit board, alongside the audio/digital circuitry),
should not this unit have a 3 pin plug, with mains earth tied to the
chassis????
Where do I go from here? Modify your design and incorporate a grounded
3-pin power cord?, or throw the unit in the bin?? Any enlightenment at
this point would be appreciated.
Regards,
Kim Webster.
THE REPLY!!!!:
Hi Kim,
I have been thinking for a number of days exactly what to repsond with. I
have decided some facts.
The BCA2000 is not our finest work. It was the first audio interface we did.
The product is now discontinued and only some what supported.
The unit can be repaired and even modified for earth pin if you like it althoght
it is not neccessary. Shock out the back does not get reported very often.
Even if you went to all that trouble with the huge amount of intel chipsets
and mainboards coming out for computers there is no promise the OS will detech
the device.
I hope there is something helpful there but to be honest an axe down the
center so no body gets hurt from it is the direction I would take.
Regards,
Behringer Support.
How can a company release a product with so much promise, yet be
riddled with fundamental design flaws??
"alex plasko" <alex.plasko@snet.net> wrote:
>Lets face it . everything sucks!
>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:47c01c3c$1@linux...
>>
>> Behringers brother ?
>
>Hi all
where do you guys buy your downloadable music?
Thanks
Demusic.com is cool, however they don't pay well. I still mosty buy CD's and
rip em I tunes is ok when I to hear need a certain song right away.
"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>Hi all
>
>where do you guys buy your downloadable music?
>
>Thanks
>
>D
>
>HI Lamont,
Yes I sure they sure do like to "push" that stuff and good luck to them
for doing it.
As long as they are around we get more and more business anyways but
thats mainly from the computer side of things.
:)
Chris
Lamont wrote:
> Nope..Quite the opposite.. They really push Motu stuff like they do Digi stuff..
>
> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>
>> HI Lamont,
>> Easy to to do in the numbers game of
|
|
|
|
| Re: Error 7/7 .... not software. [message #93964 is a reply to message #93940] |
Mon, 24 December 2007 12:50 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
e repaired and even modified for earth pin if you like it
> althoght
> it is not neccessary. Shock out the back does not get reported very often.
> Even if you went to all that trouble with the huge amount of intel
> chipsets
> and mainboards coming out for computers there is no promise the OS will
> detech
> the device.
>
> I hope there is something helpful there but to be honest an axe down the
> center so no body gets hurt from it is the direction I would take.
>
> Regards,
>
> Behringer Support.
>
> How can a company release a product with so much promise, yet be
> riddled with fundamental design flaws??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "alex plasko" <alex.plasko@snet.net> wrote:
>>Lets face it . everything sucks!
>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:47c01c3c$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Behringers brother ?
>>
>>
>On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 05:27:06 -0500, rick <parnell68@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>this typing with a hand that looks like a cows udder is a bit tedious
>though.
Now THERE'S a visual for ya.....
pabI and most of the studios around hear (Motown) use Rahpsody. I have the Rhapsody
To Go- service..Meaning I can download to my MP3 player for only the cost
of the main service which is 14.00 per month.. This way my MP3 player (
Creative Zen Sleek Photo) have the full Rahpsody catalog, which is the largest
at my disposal..
"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>Hi all
>
>where do you guys buy your downloadable music?
>
>Thanks
>
>D
>
>Rhapsody totally rocks. I hate iTunes. I have the Rhapsody subscription
that allows listening to any music anytime, plus radio stations that are
pretty hip.
I AM curious if one company has higher quality files than another.
Anyone know?
LaMont wrote:
> I and most of the studios around hear (Motown) use Rahpsody. I have the Rhapsody
> To Go- service..Meaning I can download to my MP3 player for only the cost
> of the main service which is 14.00 per month.. This way my MP3 player (
> Creative Zen Sleek Photo) have the full Rahpsody catalog, which is the largest
> at my disposal..
>
>
> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> where do you guys buy your downloadable music?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> D
>>
>>
>What's funny to me about this is I was selling software wholesale back
in '81 or '82 and we sold a couple Microsoft programs, a language and a
compiler IIRC, but they were one of the dinkiest companies we sold -
strictly small potatoes at that time. Who'd a figgered?
John wrote:
> i tried to buy inflatable balls that walmart sells at 93 cents a piece already
> inflated. i called the company that makes them and said i wanted a box of
> 100 DEFLATED and they said it would cost me 95 cents plus shipping. that's
> the problem ! big business kills little businessOK I got everything working with the new MoBo and thought I would finally
get to try some of Mikes plugs ( will donate when I can use ) followed instructions
on his page, went to start PARIS and got the message-App has failed to start
because Stock Fx dll was not found. Reinstall app. What did I do wrong. I
put the dll and ini files in system32\ensoniq\plugins. I tried to change
my path as per his instructions. One thing confused me though, When I got
to En. variables box the path says
( C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;...) I double clicked it as the instructions
said. A second box opened the top line "variable path" says path. the second
"variable value" says
(%SystemRoot%\system32;%SystemRoot%;%SystemRoot%\System32\Wb en)The instructions
said to copy the path to variable path.I must have done something wrong because
now both of these boxes are the same but PARIS won't start. What did I do
wrong. In the system variable box nest to path though it shows as ( C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;...)if
I highlight copy and paste it it is the exactly the same as the variable
value on the next page second box. If you can understand this you deserve
a metal :^).. What should these boxes read. Thanks JimThat is cool.... looks like the bass player had some serious latency to deal
with...
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>it's cool, but those dudes need to practice with a metronome, LOL
>
>AA
>
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:47bcb299$1@linux...
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh0VX74alwk
>
>To James & all you mac guys,
I bought a Mirror Door Drive G4 mac (single processor) on Ebay about a year
ago, with the idea of making it my Paris machine, but I thought I would test
it first without Paris. At first it seemed to work fine, but it soon started
freezing up, usually after a few hours of use. I opened the case and put
a 12" fan pointed directly at the processor, and it worked perfectly for
awhile, but after a few months it was back to the old tricks. Definitely
heat related, as it's worse on hot days or if I keep my computer closet closed
with the light on.
Any ideas on what I might try?
Thanks,
Daletell me about it. walked past a cattle ranch the other day and the
bulls started to follow me...kina weird...
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:23:36 -0600, Paul Braun
<cygnus_nospam@ctgonline.org> wrote:
>On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 05:27:06 -0500, rick <parnell68@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>this typing with a hand that looks like a cows udder is a bit tedious
>>though.
>
>Now THERE'S a visual for ya.....
>
>pabI'll pick up my medal after work today.. hehe
Your path should be " %SystemRoot%\system32;%SystemRoot%;%SystemRoot%\System32\Wbe m; "
plus whatever else you want appended to the end.
Like you might want this:
" %SystemRoot%\system32;%SystemRoot%;%SystemRoot%\System32\Wbe m;%SystemRoot%\system32\ensoniq\plugins;
John
"jim drago" <jamesd@prospect.k12.or.us> wrote:
>
>OK I got everything working with the new MoBo and thought I would finally
>get to try some of Mikes plugs ( will donate when I can use ) followed instructions
>on his page, went to start PARIS and got the message-App has failed to start
>because Stock Fx dll was not found. Reinstall app. What did I do wrong.
I
>put the dll and ini files in system32\ensoniq\plugins. I tried to change
>my path as per his instructions. One thing confused me though, When I got
>to En. variables box the path says
>( C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;...) I double clicked it as the instructions
>said. A second box opened the top line "variable path" says path. the second
>"variable value" says
> (%SystemRoot%\system32;%SystemRoot%;%SystemRoot%\System32\Wb en)The instructions
>said to copy the path to variable path.I must have done something wrong
because
>now both of these boxes are the same but PARIS won't start. What did I do
>wrong. In the system variable box nest to path though it shows as ( C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;...)if
>I highlight copy and paste it it is the exactly the same as the variable
>value on the next page second box. If you can understand this you deserve
>a metal :^).. What should these boxes read. Thanks JimHere's your medal John. Thanks Jim
__________
/ Thanks \
\ John /
/ You Rock \
\__________/
"John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>
>I'll pick up my medal after work today.. hehe
>
>Your path should be " %SystemRoot%\system32;%SystemRoot%;%SystemRoot%\System32\Wbe m; "
> plus whatever else you want appended to the end.
>
>Like you might want this:
>" %SystemRoot%\system32;%SystemRoot%;%SystemRoot%\System32\Wbe m;%SystemRoot%\system32\ensoniq\plugins;
>
>John
>
>"jim drago" <jamesd@prospect.k12.or.us> wrote:
>>
>>OK I got everything working with the new MoBo and thought I would finally
>>get to try some of Mikes plugs ( will donate when I can use ) followed
instructions
>>on his page, went to start PARIS and got the message-App has failed to
start
>>because Stock Fx dll was not found. Reinstall app. What did I do wrong.
>I
>>put the dll and ini files in system32\ensoniq\plugins. I tried to change
>>my path as per his instructions. One thing confused me though, When I got
>>to En. variables box the path says
>>( C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;...) I double clicked it as the instructions
>>said. A second box opened the top line "variable path" says path. the second
>>"variable value" says
>> (%SystemRoot%\system32;%SystemRoot%;%SystemRoot%\System32\Wb en)The instructions
>>said to copy the path to variable path.I must have done something wrong
>because
>>now both of these boxes are the same but PARIS won't start. What did I
do
>>wrong. In the system variable box nest to path though it shows as ( C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;...)if
>>I highlight copy and paste it it is the exactly the same as the variable
>>value on the next page second box. If you can understand this you deserve
>>a metal :^).. What should these boxes read. Thanks Jim
>My Dual Mirror door G4 dual 1.25 runs hot as well,but I've never had problems
with freeze up. Your problem may be hardware/heat related, but my first
guess is software. There was a firmware down load related to heat and noise.
I would check Apple's support site for the latest firmware. Are you freezing
when running OS 9 or OSX? If your freezing in OS9, don't forget that OS
9 does not have protected memory, so you may need to allocate more memory
to programs. It was the biggest flaw with Mac OS 9 and prior, users would
forget to up the memory for all the programs they are running and they'd
get a lock up or crash.
I hope this helps!
James
"dale" <dalebradleycello@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>To James & all you mac guys,
>
>I bought a Mirror Door Drive G4 mac (single processor) on Ebay about a year
>ago, with the idea of making it my Paris machine, but I thought I would
test
>it first without Paris. At first it seemed to work fine, but it soon started
>freezing up, usually after a few hours of use. I opened the case and put
>a 12" fan pointed directly at the processor, and it worked perfectly for
>awhile, but after a few months it was back to the old tricks. Definitely
>heat related, as it's worse on hot days or if I keep my computer closet
closed
>with the light on.
>
>Any ideas on what I might try?
>
>Thanks,
>Dalethanks James,
If I make this machine my Paris rig, I will be running OS9, but have not
tried that yet. I'm currently running 10.4.9, but also using Classic. I think
it freezes up with classic running or not---but I can try not using Classic
and see if that makes a difference. Do you think I need to change some kind
of settings in classic? Or allocate more memory to OS9 apps? I thought OSX
automatically handled memory.
Thanks,
Dale
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>My Dual Mirror door G4 dual 1.25 runs hot as well,but I've never had problems
>with freeze up. Your problem may be hardware/heat related, but my first
>guess is software. There was a firmware down load related to heat and noise.
> I would check Apple's support site for the latest firmware. Are you freezing
>when running OS 9 or OSX? If your freezing in OS9, don't forget that OS
>9 does not have protected memory, so you may need to allocate more memory
>to programs. It was the biggest flaw with Mac OS 9 and prior, users would
>forget to up the memory for all the programs they are running and they'd
>get a lock up or crash.
>
>I hope this helps!
>
>James
>
>"dale" <dalebradleycello@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>To James & all you mac guys,
>>
>>I bought a Mirror Door Drive G4 mac (single processor) on Ebay about a
year
>>ago, with the idea of making it my Paris machine, but I thought I would
>test
>>it first without Paris. At first it seemed to work fine, but it soon started
>>freezing up, usually after a few hours of use. I opened the case and put
>>a 12" fan pointed directly at the processor, and it worked perfectly for
>>awhile, but after a few months it was back to the old tricks. Definitely
>>heat related, as it's worse on hot days or if I keep my computer closet
>closed
>>with the light on.
>>
>>Any ideas on what I might try?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Dale
>We still have a "Classic" around here somewhere if you need a spare... ;-)
David.
dale wrote:
> thanks James,
>
> If I make this machine my Paris rig, I will be running OS9, but have not
> tried that yet. I'm currently running 10.4.9, but also using Classic. I think
> it freezes up with classic running or not---but I can try not using Classic
> and see if that makes a difference. Do you think I need to change some kind
> of settings in classic? Or allocate more memory to OS9 apps? I thought OSX
> automatically handled memory.
>
> Thanks,
> Dale
>
>
>
> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>My Dual Mirror door G4 dual 1.25 runs hot as well,but I've never had problems
>>with freeze up. Your problem may be hardware/heat related, but my first
>>guess is software. There was a firmware down load related to heat and noise.
>>I would check Apple's support site for the latest firmware. Are you freezing
>>when running OS 9 or OSX? If your freezing in OS9, don't forget that OS
>>9 does not have protected memory, so you may need to allocate more memory
>>to programs. It was the biggest flaw with Mac OS 9 and prior, users would
>>forget to up the memory for all the programs they are running and they'd
>>get a lock up or crash.
>>
>>I hope this helps!
>>
>>James
>>
>>"dale" <dalebradleycello@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>To James & all you mac guys,
>>>
>>>I bought a Mirror Door Drive G4 mac (single processor) on Ebay about a
>
> year
>
>>>ago, with the idea of making it my Paris machine, but I thought I would
>>
>>test
>>
>>>it first without Paris. At first it seemed to work fine, but it soon started
>>>freezing up, usually after a few hours of use. I opened the case and put
>>>a 12" fan pointed directly at the processor, and it worked perfectly for
>>>awhile, but after a few months it was back to the old tricks. Definitely
>>>heat related, as it's worse on hot days or if I keep my computer closet
>>
>>closed
>>
>>>with the light on.
>>>
>>>Any ideas on what I might try?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Dale
>>
>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>What the hell is evil about giving away product to gain market share. I
>bet if you were on the receiving end you wouldn't call it evil. It's
>just business. Ever been at a cosmetic counter with your gal? The shit
>they give away is unbelievable - I wish to hell Apple or MS would pile
>it on like that to me. 'Course the markup on cosmetics, man, that's true
>evil, but the ladies don't complain, so suck it up. This kind of ranting
>is juvenile. They're just computers, right?
>
This is an over-simplification of the situation. MS did not give away a
IE as a promotion, they gave IE away to put Netscape out of business. They
also threaten to pull MS products and licensing from any builder that stripped
out IE and Installed Netscape. MS also tried to imbed IE in to the OEM version
of Windows so that it would be hard to strip out. This is only one example
of MS tactics with one company.
There is nothing wrong with giving away something for free with a purchase
or giving something away for a time as a promotion.
This thread is on the general NG.
>Kim wrote:
>> Dude, all I'm saying is that we have two evil companies, and one has more
>> money, hence power, than the other. Hence the one with more power obviously
>> is in a better position to do all this evil stuff. Apple have less examples
>> of questionable business practises, yes, but they have a smaller budget
so
>> what do you expect?
>>
>> Why does M$ need yahoo? Why did Apple need any of a number of companies
they
>> have absorbed? Why does society think we need to grow all the time when
the
>> size of the planet has been fairly stable since its existence? Got me
stuffed.
>>
>> Like I said I don't really want to get into this.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market share?
>> I
>>> have seen Apple do some things strait out of the MS play book, but it's
>> not
>>> vary often.
>>>
>>> Somebody vary close to me was an executive at a software company (N)
and
>>> was over their HR department. MS was hiring away (N) top software engineers
>>> by giving them 1 to 3 million dollar starting bonuses, (bribes). They
hired
>>> way (N) intellectual technology to work on IE, and they gave IE away
for
>>> free to drive (N) out of business. How many times have you heard of
Apple
>>> stomping their competition to death? How many times have you heard of
Apple
>>> coming in to a market and giving products away for free in order to drive
>>> their competition out of business? How many times have you heard of
Apple
>>> threatening to pull all products from a VAR for installing a competing
software
>>> product on a system? To say that they are the same is not true. MS
copies
>>> from, steals from or buys out from their competition at their price,
and
>>> if that doesn't work they crush their competition, they almost never
play
>>> ethically. When it comes to ethics and business practices these companies
>>> are not even close.
>>>
>>> Why does MS need Yahoo so bad? Isn't MSN and all their products good
enough?
>>> Why must they do a hostile take over of Yahoo? It will be interesting
>> to
>>> see how many products MS gives away for free if they get Yahoo. It's
not
>>> about competition, it's about conquering. MS must control all. It's
an
>>> ego trip for them.
>>>
>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080220/D8UTN3800.html
>>>
>>>
>>> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bottom line, MS Vista sucks and so do their business practices.
>>>> Dude, I don't really want to get into this, but the fine print reads
that
>>>> pretty much everybody agrees with you on that. What they don't agree
on
>>> is
>>>> your claim that Apple aren't similar.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, the latest OSX is much nicer than Vista. It's plausible that Apple's
>>>> business practices are not quite as bad as M$. It's very highly plausible
>>>> that this is because they don't have a monopoly with which to exercise
>> that
>>>> power.
>>>>
>>>> Most people I know agrees that M$ and Apple both act extremely suspiciously
>>>> whenever they get the chance, with M$ having the upper hand because
they
>>>> have the upper hand in muscle. How you can claim Apple have never tried
>>> to
>>>> buy market share I just don't get.
>>>>
>>>> Just because one company is very evil doesn't mean you are forced to
become
>>>> blind to the evils of the other. Most people on this group see evils
in
>>> both.
>>>> I have seen you criticise Apple, but it's very very rare. They do a
long
>>>> more wrong IMHO than you give them credit for, and claiming they don't
>> buy
>>>> market share, well...
>>>>
>>>> <rant off>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Kim.
>>Mac OSX has protected memory, so I'd check the support site for the latest
firmware. Is the machine locking up running OSX? Do you have an Apple retail
store near you?
"dale" <dalebradleycello@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>thanks James,
>
>If I make this machine my Paris rig, I will be running OS9, but have not
>tried that yet. I'm currently running 10.4.9, but also using Classic. I
think
>it freezes up with classic running or not---but I can try not using Classic
>and see if that makes a difference. Do you think I need to change some kind
>of settings in classic? Or allocate more memory to OS9 apps? I thought OSX
>automatically handled memory.
>
>Thanks,
>Dale
>
>
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>My Dual Mirror door G4 dual 1.25 runs hot as well,but I've never had problems
>>with freeze up. Your problem may be hardware/heat related, but my first
>>guess is software. There was a firmware down load related to heat and
noise.
>> I would check Apple's support site for the latest firmware. Are you
freezing
>>when running OS 9 or OSX? If your freezing in OS9, don't forget that OS
>>9 does not have protected memory, so you may need to allocate more memory
>>to programs. It was the biggest flaw with Mac OS 9 and prior, users would
>>forget to up the memory for all the programs they are running and they'd
>>get a lock up or crash.
>>
>>I hope this helps!
>>
>>James
>>
>>"dale" <dalebradleycello@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>To James & all you mac guys,
>>>
>>>I bought a Mirror Door Drive G4 mac (single processor) on Ebay about a
>year
>>>ago, with the idea of making it my Paris machine, but I thought I would
>>test
>>>it first without Paris. At first it seemed to work fine, but it soon started
>>>freezing up, usually after a few hours of use. I opened the case and put
>>>a 12" fan pointed directly at the processor, and it worked perfectly for
>>>awhile, but after a few months it was back to the old tricks. Definitely
>>>heat related, as it's worse on hot days or if I keep my computer closet
>>closed
>>>with the light on.
>>>
>>>Any ideas on what I might try?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Dale
>>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0338_01C877CE.04A3C870
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3D6693909 #6693909 =
(should take you to the next to last post on that page)
Apparently Apogee's numbers are only while tracking. Sounds like they =
only posted part of the story with their great low latency figures.
It is hard to say if this is the case for everyone though, except for =
Apogee's response when the user called, but since I brought it up in the =
Vista thread, I thought I would pass it along to try and sort through =
marketing myth and real world facts. I was actually kind of hoping the =
Apogee Symphony would smoke at low latency with Core audio and any app, =
just because it would be cool to have such a breakthrough, but this =
really just shows that ASIO is pushing the limits of current OSs =
already, and we haven't really exceeded it yet.
The reports on Nuendo performance is quite a bit faster on XP and ASIO2, =
but it's running fine at low latency on
OSX/core audio - just about 20-30% higher (my adjusted estimate) plugin =
load on the same hardware, same latency: it's really 76 Nuendo multiband =
comps at 64 samples on XP/ASIO, vs 45 on OSX/core audio at 64, which is =
almost 50% more, but I'm assuming there are other plugins in that =
benchmark test to compensate for, and vary part of that loading (I'll =
have to find out for sure when I have more time) - same dual quad =
hardware configs in both cases. I don't know for sure if some of this =
is Nuendo not being optimized for the lower level OSX code base (maybe =
already), or still on Cocoa or whatever - or if it is truly a limitation =
of OSX and core audio. Based on the Logic thread, the latter seems to =
have a bit more weight than it being a Nuendo-only performance issue.
Fwiw,
Dedric
------=_NextPart_000_0338_01C877CE.04A3C870
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16587" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D" http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3D6693909 #6693=
909"> http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3D6693909 #6693909=
</A> (should=20
take you to the next to last post on that page)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Apparently Apogee's numbers =
are only=20
while tracking. Sounds like they only posted part of the story =
with their=20
great low latency figures.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is hard to say if this is the case =
for everyone=20
though, except for Apogee's response when the user called, but since I =
brought=20
it up in the Vista thread, I thought I would pass it along to try and =
sort=20
through marketing myth and real world facts. I was actually kind =
of hoping=20
the Apogee Symphony would smoke at low latency with </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Core audio and any app, just because it would be cool to have =
such a=20
breakthrough, but this really </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>just =
shows that=20
ASIO is pushing the limits of current OSs already, and we haven't really =
exceeded it yet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The reports on Nuendo performance is =
quite a bit=20
faster on XP and ASIO2, but it's running fine at low latency =
on</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>OSX/core audio - just about 20-30% =
higher (my=20
adjusted estimate) plugin load on the same hardware, same=20
latency: it's really 76 Nuendo multiband comps at 64 samples on =
XP/ASIO, vs=20
45 on OSX/core audio at 64, which is almost 50% more, </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>but I'm assuming there are other plugins in that =
benchmark test to=20
compensate for, and vary part of that loading (I'll have to find =
out for=20
sure when I have more time) - same dual quad hardware configs in =
both=20
cases. I don't know for sure if some of this is Nuendo not being =
optimized=20
for the lower level OSX code base (maybe already), or still on Cocoa or =
whatever=20
- or if it is truly a limitation of OSX and core audio. Based on =
the Logic=20
thread, the latter seems to have a bit more weight than it being a =
Nuendo-only=20
performance issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Fwiw,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dedric</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR clear=3Dleft><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0338_01C877CE.04A3C870--I not sure I see any false claim, Apogee's info is here to see. I don't see
them talking about running software instruments.
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony_performance.p hp
Lowest Latency: 1.6 milliseconds at 96kHz* (Analog to Analog)
*Hardware/Session Details:
• Computer configuration: 
Mac Pro, 2.66GHz Dual-Core with three internal
500 GB, 7200 RPM drives configured as a RAID and 4 GB of ram.
• Software: 
Logic 7.2.2 session running at 96k.
• Track count during latency test: 
32 tracks playback, 32 tracks
recording
• Plug ins engaged during latency test: 
10 Adaptive Limiters, 10
Linear Phase EQs, 6 Space Designers (default preset)
• Buffer setting: 
32
"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>
>
> http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3D6693909 #6693909 =
>(should take you to the next to last post on that page)
>
>Apparently Apogee's numbers are only while tracking. Sounds like they =
>only posted part of the story with their great low latency figures.
>It is hard to say if this is the case for everyone though, except for =
>Apogee's response when the user called, but since I brought it up in the
=
>Vista thread, I thought I would pass it along to try and sort through =
>marketing myth and real world facts. I was actually kind of hoping the
=
>Apogee Symphony would smoke at low latency with Core audio and any app,
=
>just because it would be cool to have such a breakthrough, but this =
>really just shows that ASIO is pushing the limits of current OSs =
>already, and we haven't really exceeded it yet.
>
>The reports on Nuendo performance is quite a bit faster on XP and ASIO2,
=
>but it's running fine at low latency on
>OSX/core audio - just about 20-30% higher (my adjusted estimate) plugin
=
>load on the same hardware, same latency: it's really 76 Nuendo multiband
=
>comps at 64 samples on XP/ASIO, vs 45 on OSX/core audio at 64, which is
=
>almost 50% more, but I'm assuming there are other plugins in that =
>benchmark test to compensate for, and vary part of that loading (I'll =
>have to find out for sure when I have more time) - same dual quad =
>hardware configs in both cases. I don't know for sure if some of this =
>is Nuendo not being optimized for the lower level OSX code base (maybe =
>already), or still on Cocoa or whatever - or if it is truly a limitation
=
>of OSX and core audio. Based on the Logic thread, the latter seems to =
>have a bit more weight than it being a Nuendo-only performance issue.
>
>Fwiw,
>Dedric
>
>
>
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16587" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
>href=3D" http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3D6693909 #6693=
>909"> http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3D6693909 #6693909=
></A> (should=20
>take you to the next to last post on that page)</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Apparently Apogee's numbers =
>are only=20
>while tracking. Sounds like they only posted part of the story =
>with their=20
>great low latency figures.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is hard to say if this is the case =
>for everyone=20
>though, except for Apogee's response when the user called, but since I =
>brought=20
>it up in the Vista thread, I thought I would pass it along to try and =
>sort=20
>through marketing myth and real world facts. I was actually kind =
>of hoping=20
>the Apogee Symphony would smoke at low latency with </FONT><FONT =
>face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2>Core audio and any app, just because it would be cool to have =
>such a=20
>breakthrough, but this really </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>just =
>shows that=20
>ASIO is pushing the limits of current OSs already, and we haven't really
=
>
>exceeded it yet.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Error 7/7 mystery.... ...is still a mystery. [message #93973 is a reply to message #93960] |
Mon, 24 December 2007 15:37 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
hese are the kind of real world reports that make or break a buying
>decision for those of us looking for really powerful systems and wanting
to
>know exactly what we are getting, not just assume because we love the
>company behind it....
>
>If you track all day for living, it sounds like a great system (but so is
an
>RME MADI rig). If you run VSTi's, investigate it more and try before you
>buy, or look elsewhere in known waters (ASIO 2 systems), at least for now
>until there's either more info and/or Apogee beefs up their system/drivers.
>
>The point isn't to defend or attack anyone - it's just to get to the bottom
>of what products *really* do so we know before we buy.
>As long as customers defend manufacturers out of blind loyalty, getting
an
>honest answer and better products from those developers will only get more
>and more difficult.
>
>Dedric
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:47c35daf$1@linux...
>>
>> I not sure I see any false claim, Apogee's info is here to see. I don't
>> see
>> them talking about running software instruments.
>>
>> http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony_performance.p hp
>>
>> Lowest Latency: 1.6 milliseconds at 96kHz* (Analog to Analog)
>>
>> *Hardware/Session Details:
>> . Computer configuration: 
Mac Pro, 2.66GHz Dual-Core with three
>> internal
>> 500 GB, 7200 RPM drives configured as a RAID and 4 GB of ram.
>> . Software: 
Logic 7.2.2 session running at 96k.
>> . Track count during latency test: 
32 tracks playback, 32 tracks
>> recording
>> . Plug ins engaged during latency test: 
10 Adaptive Limiters, 10
>> Linear Phase EQs, 6 Space Designers (default preset)
>> . Buffer setting: 
32
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3D6693909 #6693909 =
>>>(should take you to the next to last post on that page)
>>>
>>>Apparently Apogee's numbers are only while tracking. Sounds like they
=
>>>only posted part of the story with their great low latency figures.
>>>It is hard to say if this is the case for everyone though, except for
=
>>>Apogee's response when the user called, but since I brought it up in the
>> =
>>>Vista thread, I thought I would pass it along to try and sort through
=
>>>marketing myth and real world facts. I was actually kind of hoping the
>> =
>>>Apogee Symphony would smoke at low latency with Core audio and any app,
>> =
>>>just because it would be cool to have such a breakthrough, but this =
>>>really just shows that ASIO is pushing the limits of current OSs =
>>>already, and we haven't really exceeded it yet.
>>>
>>>The reports on Nuendo performance is quite a bit faster on XP and ASIO2,
>> =
>>>but it's running fine at low latency on
>>>OSX/core audio - just about 20-30% higher (my adjusted estimate) plugin
>> =
>>>load on the same hardware, same latency: it's really 76 Nuendo multiband
>> =
>>>comps at 64 samples on XP/ASIO, vs 45 on OSX/core audio at 64, which is
>> =
>>>almost 50% more, but I'm assuming there are other plugins in that =
>>>benchmark test to compensate for, and vary part of that loading (I'll
=
>>>have to find out for sure when I have more time) - same dual quad =
>>>hardware configs in both cases. I don't know for sure if some of this
=
>>>is Nuendo not being optimized for the lower level OSX code base (maybe
=
>>>already), or still on Cocoa or whatever - or if it is truly a limitation
>> =
>>>of OSX and core audio. Based on the Logic thread, the latter seems to
=
>>>have a bit more weight than it being a Nuendo-only performance issue.
>>>
>>>Fwiw,
>>>Dedric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>>><HTML><HEAD>
>>><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>>>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
>>><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16587" name=3DGENERATOR>
>>><STYLE></STYLE>
>>></HEAD>
>>><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
>>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
>>>href=3D" http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3D6693909 #6693=
>>>909"> http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3D6693909 #6693909=
>>></A> (should=20
>>>take you to the next to last post on that page)</FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Apparently Apogee's numbers =
>>>are only=20
>>>while tracking. Sounds like they only posted part of the story =
>>>with their=20
>>>great low latency figures.</FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is hard to say if this is the case
=
>>>for everyone=20
>>>though, except for Apogee's response when the user called, but since I
=
>>>brought=20
>>>it up in the Vista thread, I thought I would pass it along to try and
=
>>>sort=20
>>>through marketing myth and real world facts. I was actually kind =
>>>of hoping=20
>>>the Apogee Symphony would smoke at low latency with </FONT><FONT =
>>>face=3DArial=20
>>>size=3D2>Core audio and any app, just because it would be cool to have
=
>>>such a=20
>>>breakthrough, but this really </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>just
=
>>>shows that=20
>>>ASIO is pushing the limits of current OSs already, and we haven't really
>> =
>>>
>>>exceeded it yet.</FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The reports on Nuendo performance is
=
>>>quite a bit=20
>>>faster on XP and ASIO2, but it's running fine at low latency =
>>>on</FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>OSX/core audio - just about 20-30% =
>>>higher (my=20
>>>adjusted estimate) plugin load on the same hardware, same=20
>>>latency: it's really 76 Nuendo multiband comps at 64 samples on =
>>>XP/ASIO, vs=20
>>>45 on OSX/core audio at 64, which is almost 50% more, </FONT><FONT =
>>>face=3DArial=20
>>>size=3D2>but I'm assuming there are other plugins in that =
>>>benchmark test to=20
>>>compensate for, and vary part of that loading (I'll have to find =
>>>out for=20
>>>sure when I have more time) - same dual quad hardware configs in =
>>>both=20
>>>cases. I don't know for sure if some of this is Nuendo not being =
>>>optimized=20
>>>for the lower level OSX code base (maybe already), or still on Cocoa or
>> =
>>>whatever=20
>>>- or if it is truly a limitation of OSX and core audio. Based on =
>>>the Logic=20
>>>thread, the latter seems to have a bit more weight than it being a =
>>>Nuendo-only=20
>>>performance issue.</FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Fwiw,</FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dedric</FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><BR clear=3Dleft><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>
>>>
>>>
>>
>Um... okay. Sounds like you are just defending Apogee for no good reason,
esp. considering I didn't attack them, so give me a break with the "not good
to make assumptions" lecture. For the last time - I posted this so people
who have a real world interest in working with this kind of gear would know
what to look out for, and you jump in to defend Apogee's marketing.
If you have experience with real world use as a composer on an Apogee
Symphony system and think the Logic user misguided in his evalution, I'm
sure the Logic forum would be most interested in your input.
It's getting way too difficult to post anything that even hints at the word
"Apple" here, so I'll take future technical discussions to other forums with
more objectivity and interest in the real world reports rather than
marketing interpretation debates.
Dedric
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47c37654$1@linux...
>
> Dedric, I see the truth as the truth. It's good to be educated as to what
> a system is capable of. It's not good to assume things. It is explained
> that they are running 26 fx plugins with 32 tracks at 96k with a buffer
> setting of 32 and getting 1.6 millisecond of latency using Logic 7.2.2.
> If what they are saying is not true somebody should sue them. On the
> other
> hand, if somebody assumes that they can run a different version of Logic
> with a different set up and run virtual instruments, I don't think you can
> expect to get the same results. Apogee is clear about the set up, however
> I do think they should have more information and be more clear about the
> plugins counts. They should separate the maximum plugin count and the
> latency
> test, it's a bit confusing.
>
> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>Apparently some Logic users see it as misleading (as do quite a few other
>
>>pros I know), and those numbers quote plugin counts. With most DAWs, that
>
>>equates directly to VSTi's (which are also plugins...). It's isn't the
>
>>whole story. The website never says - "you won't get this kind of latency
>
>>with VSTis the way you do with other DAWs on ASIO". ;-)) And that's
>>exactly what I said in my post: Apogee only posted *part* of the story.
>>
>>Really, I only posted this for those that might be interested in actually
>
>>knowing what systems will do vs. what marketing would lead you to believe.
>
>>These are the kind of real world reports that make or break a buying
>>decision for those of us looking for really powerful systems and wanting
> to
>>know exactly what we are getting, not just assume because we love the
>>company behind it....
>>
>>If you track all day for living, it sounds like a great system (but so is
> an
>>RME MADI rig). If you run VSTi's, investigate it more and try before you
>
>>buy, or look elsewhere in known waters (ASIO 2 systems), at least for now
>
>>until there's either more info and/or Apogee beefs up their
>>system/drivers.
>>
>>The point isn't to defend or attack anyone - it's just to get to the
>>bottom
>
>>of what products *really* do so we know before we buy.
>>As long as customers defend manufacturers out of blind loyalty, getting
> an
>>honest answer and better products from those developers will only get more
>
>>and more difficult.
>>
>>Dedric
>>
>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:47c35daf$1@linux...
>>>
>>> I not sure I see any false claim, Apogee's info is here to see. I don't
>
>>> see
>>> them talking about running software instruments.
>>>
>>> http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony_performance.p hp
>>>
>>> Lowest Latency: 1.6 milliseconds at 96kHz* (Analog to Analog)
>>>
>>> *Hardware/Session Details:
>>> . Computer configuration: 
Mac Pro, 2.66GHz Dual-Core with three
>
>>> internal
>>> 500 GB, 7200 RPM drives configured as a RAID and 4 GB of ram.
>>> . Software: 
Logic 7.2.2 session running at 96k.
>>> . Track count during latency test: 
32 tracks playback, 32 tracks
>>> recording
>>> . Plug ins engaged during latency test: 
10 Adaptive Limiters, 10
>>> Linear Phase EQs, 6 Space Designers (default preset)
>>> . Buffer setting: 
32
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3D6693909 #6693909 =
>>>>(should take you to the
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