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Scherzo news... [message #101174]

Wed, 19 November 2008 16:31

mike audet[1]
Messages: 129
Registered: February 2006

Senior Member

you find the forum offline or experience difficulty connecting it's probably just that, and regular service should resume shortly thereafter.

- KIndeed I did - took the family down into the craziness, and also had some fun gigs. This is last Friday (I'm on bass on the R).

I nearly bailed on Vancouver during this period myself, but in the final analysis I'm glad I didn't. Some stuff was pretty exciting, the weather was pretty decent, the city really never looked better.

I'll admit (grudgingly) that if one's tastes run to enormous corporate en

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101175 is a reply to message #101174]

Wed, 19 November 2008 15:49

EK Sound

Messages: 939
Registered: June 2005

Senior Member

tertainments VANOC gave us a pretty good show. And given the small size of our population, 14 gold medals doesn't hurt. Very Happy

Congrats to the US for a big haul in *overall* medals too!Just a quick update. I've contacted Sean (ModuLR), and he's more than happy to see someone hack away at his code. He's going to try and dig up the latest version of the source if he can.

This is good news....now I need to go and learn the ins and outs of the VST SDK.

Cheers

KriswoooooT!

Very Happy

Two questions:

What does Senderella do that Faderworks doesn't?

What are the latency considerations with this proposed setup? ie: could this be used for a VST stereo buss comp from 8-10 channels all being sent to the same 2 inputs of a native submix?

Thanks for the good work!

Ted

Well, I'm not really sure what exactly Faderworks does. I haven't installed the demo to try it ou

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101177 is a reply to message #101175]

Wed, 19 November 2008 16:07

Aaron Allen

Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008

Senior Member

was to set up the returns first:
1) I wanted a stereo return so I went to a native submix, and on channel 1's 1st native plugin slot instantiated Senderella set to be a return for Senderella's channel 1 (You can have up 64 'channels' in senderella, think of them as mono aux sends). On channel 2 of the native submix I set another Senderella as a return for Senderella's channel 2. This basically sets up a stereo return for Senderella's sends.

2) Next, on channel 1 in the 2nd native plug-in spot I selected a stereo native plug-in (Waves IR reverb), and checked the stereo box.

3) On an EDS submix on a snare drum channel, I instantiated 2 senderella plug-ins in series (the reason for this is I want to send the snare in mono to the reverb, so I need to send equal level to senderella channe l1, and channel 2). This is the interface issue I'd like to address.

4) Panning can be controlled by the balance of channel 1 vs channel 2 send levels on Senderella, and voila there is a native reverb working on an Aux.

Latency implications. I don't think there is any added latency from Senderella...so you can use it for doing parallel compression. BUT, and this is a big one, you'd need to have a compressor with zero latency. Or, otherwise do latency compensation by adding an equivalent delay after each send. This might be a useful addition to my plug-in.

Hopefully this makes some sense. I'll put some more thoughts down on paper tonight.

Cheers

Kris
Having neve

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101178 is a reply to message #101174]

Wed, 19 November 2008 17:24

Ted Gerber

Messages: 705
Registered: January 2009

Senior Member

r used a Native submix this may be the wrong question

Are you saying that this kind of FX send /return (on a Native Submix) can be set up in conjunction with an EDS Submix so that both run simultaneously and by switching views (so to speak) one can alter the FX returns in the native submix view or the sends in the EDS view...if so this has some interesting possibilities.

Assuming I've got this right...dumb Q time

Have you checked to see if there is a difference sonically between plugins inserted in the Native mix and the same inserted on an EDS mix?

You've got it! Except, you're not limited to having the senderella returns on a native submix, you can put them on EDS submixes too. I just figured it made more sense to put them on native submixes to free up EDS submixes for other purposes. A nice side benefit of having the returns on a channel is that you can EQ the returns with the standard paris 4 band EQ controlled by the C16. Also, by having the returns on a pair of channels you can get tweaky with the pan automa

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101181 is a reply to message #101178]

Wed, 19 November 2008 17:07

Tom Bruhl

Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007

Senior Member

or positional sync or transport sync you'll need something else besides. Pity ReWire doesn't work over LAN, that'd be a cool solution. I'll mull on it.yup, many congrats to my neighbors to the great (nearly) white north eh.

i had an opportunity to move to bc 40 years ago but was a bit short on the cash for some land purchase thing. so i guess i'm a bit of a canukistonian on the inside.yup, many congrats to my neighbors to the great (nearly) white north eh.

i had an opportunity to move to bc 40 years ago but was a bit short on the cash for some land purchase thing. so i guess i'm a bit of a canukistonian on the inside.

Here's the tutorial as a web page:

http://web.ncf.ca/fk824/Senderella_tutorial.htm

The images aren't optimized, so the load times aren't great, but it's easier to work with than a PDF for sure.

Cheers

KrisOK, got it, ported it over to the Wiki - look OK to you?

http://www.kerrygalloway.com/WikiPARIS/wikka.php?wakka=Nativ eSubmixSenderellaTut

- Kerry

[edited to add - I'm setting up a submix according to the tutorial right now - this might well become part of my Default Project.PPJ]I thought I'd give this its own topic header in case anyone missed it in the Native Submix thread. drfrankencopter has now posted a truly excellent

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101182 is a reply to message #101181]

Wed, 19 November 2008 18:28

mike audet[1]
Messages: 129
Registered: February 2006

Senior Member

ref="http://www.kerrygalloway.com/WikiPARIS/wikka.php?wakka=NativeSubmixSenderellaTut" target="_blank">step-by-step tutorial on achieving stereo native auxes in PARIS - it's brilliant, and completely easy to follow, with comprehensive screenshots. Enjoy!Hey All,
I'm trying to use the 24 bit converters.
It seem to me they have a veiled sound to them (losings the
excitement ot the performance). If I go
Thu the main converters (on the MEC). Seems like the
one's on the Mec are 16bit right? So is it dithering the
24 bit sound down to 16 on playback?
Every one that I know (that have used Paris) says the same thing.
That the 16bit sounds way better. YES/NO?

Now if I go back Thu the 24 bit output converts too, will it sound right again?

The other thing is Paris seem to lose some of the dynamics
when you try and mix in the box. ( I know a lot of system do this for some reason) But when you assign then back to mono channels they sound better again. Maybe it's my settings or something. My son was thinking it's in the software along the line (sons a programmer).

I was thinking there is a way to optimize Paris that I don't know about Or I'm missing something.

My friend has Pro tools HD and he is summing into a mixer.
Seems like the main mix buss (on most software based) needs more resolution in order handles the main buss mix.

I don't have this problem with 2" tape (but the hiss).Seams like any plug-in I try and use needs to be
adjusted for latency. I do use a wraper on my
UA-1 powed plug-in's too as you know and it's
very late. I just don't know if you adjust in
the wrapper or in Paris Pro.

2) where do you do this at and how??

Thanks guys your the best.

JeffA few notes:

The built-in convertors of the MEC are 20 bit; the 8i and 8o expansion cards are 24-bit. The PARIS clock and converters are excellent for their vintage, but in the big picture a high-quality external clock's been sugges

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101183 is a reply to message #101175]

Wed, 19 November 2008 18:40

mike audet[1]
Messages: 129
Registered: February 2006

Senior Member

ted as a good upgrade, and some have reported good results with higher-quality A/D convertors as well.

I think a lot of folks over the years have found that PARIS suggests more of a "warm" or "vintage" or "analog-like" sound, as compared to say Apogee convertors which I tend to think of as "shiny" or even "crystalline". I find it "punchy" - it treats my bass like I want bass to be treated.

The mix bus of PARIS is widely considered one of PARIS' best features - certainly head and shoulders above many DAWs.

If your son's a programmer, he may find this interesting.Short form - PARIS, which was released in 1997 and discontinued in 2001, has no PDC (latency compensation). One workaround is VertexDSP's FaderWorks; there's some info on it on this page which might also help explain some of the back story.

Yea I do use a Aardvark/AardSync to clock the two Paris systems.
It was the king in it's day also ($1700.00+-) So sure there maybe better now (Big Ben).

Yes Paris is great on the bass.

Just seams to lose something. So maybe need to look in the computer and check everything.

I think I will also sum to my large mixer and see how that will sound.

Something is going on and I'm losing good sound along the way.
Right now I buss right out from the 16 buses of my main mixer.
Straight into Paris.

JA.These are very detailed instructions. Looking forward to trying it out.

Still wondering in advance if you can send more than a stereo pair from the card submix to the same stereo "in" of the Native submix. ie: like a whole drum kit, or background vox group etc. And if so, would they each be returned to the Insert slot from which they were sent, or could you return them elsewhere on the card submix (assuming open tracks)?

Sorry to be a bit dense, I'm just jumping to a key question, without exploring it first myself...

Ted

Ted, to answer your questions:

1. 'wondering in advance if you can send more than a stereo pair from the card submix to the same stereo "in" of the Native submix. ie: like a whole drum kit, or background vox group etc.'

Yes...to my knowledge this is possible. The when Senderella is set to be a 'return' it will

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101185 is a reply to message #101182]

Wed, 19 November 2008 18:12

Tom Bruhl

Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007

Senior Member

delay line)
- Digital delay set to no-feedback
- Phaser, Filter, or Some other kind of modulation
- Senderella send back to the return above

Now you have a delay with phasing/filtering/tape saturation, you name it, in the feedback loop. It's like a modular synth for delays.

Cheers

Kris

Alright - thanks for the input!Also try the spdif out of the MEC if you have a converter that accepts spidf in for monitoring as this is 24bit. I have a sony DAT DTC-700 (also takes lightpipe digital in/out) that I use just for that for what it's worth. I also just got a pair of BAE 1023's and have been trying those on the mix bus (along with a BIG BEN as master clock now) of some mixes and...well....mmmmmm..mmmmmmmm Wink

also on the global mix...

use the EQ4+ and add a 2-3db boost at 20KHz (parametric 1=on) and also a 2-3 db boost with a hi-shelf (1=on) of around 11Khz.

A good stereo comp setting as well that BT used alot...
Thresh- -16.0
Ratio -1.25
Attack - .0032
Release - .034
Lookahead - .02
Output - 3.2

These two additions on the Global Mix bus I think will help a bit as well.
As I don't have Senderella installed yet it's dumb Q time again

Just under the black bar in Senderella is a "(send#1)"

Am I correct in assuming this is user adjustable from 1 - 64 depending on the number of instances of Senderella you have open?

"and also a means to do latency compensation on the pass-thu path of the sends, which should allow for parallel compression in Paris." to do this from one card to another or native would be great!

I will have to give that a shot. Yes the over all mix
seem a little week in the high end. Low end is fine.
So yea that eq setting my help out a lot. Still need to
get more under the hood and test a few things out.

Has anyone had any luck with using the A-dats cards and
using APOGEE AD-8000 24 BIT DIGITAL AUDIO CONVERTER AD8000.

Would this be a huge step above the stock converters for like vocals, real time Lexicon re-verbs? I don't like the tails
of my verbs cut off by the converters. I know, I know we are
not at 96k or better sample rate.

Cheers,

Jeff
just to update...still hit and miss loading paris and different projects with big ben and 4 mecs... still a BSOD here and there...a lot of "not responding" when loading a project. Sometimes it will load a project fine and then when I close and open up another one it goes back to not playing all the cards or again "not responding". Restarting the whole comp always seems to reset everything as just ending the process still leaves the syncs all messed up and PARIS won't reload again. I am trying to be systematic with things but it just seems so random at this point. Just back in town and emailing Mike again so I will see where we get

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101186 is a reply to message #101185]

Wed, 19 November 2008 19:40

mike audet[1]
Messages: 129
Registered: February 2006

Senior Member

. But when I do get it playing on some previously finished mixes it sure does sound good with some new toys across the mix bus. Wink

Hmm - have you ditched the "Default Project" out of your Paris app folder yet? A corrupted default PPJ would give you problems every time you booted the app or selected "New Project", worth trying if you haven't already.

PARIS runs rock solid for a lot of us, let's get to the bottom of this and nail it on your system.that is one thing I am not quite sure at. I have a good copy of Untitled Project on my desktop and in the Paris folder. I have tried loading from both of those and also the Paris.exe itself but I am not exactly sure where the paris.exe is getting the initial project from as when I delete the one from the folder it still loads one and it is not the same one that I saved there.I also had a couple of projects playing earlier today then I went on to another and it started getting funny again and now I am back to certain cards not playing. I though it might have been because I switched cards on the submixes within the project maybe but I can most of the time get my untitled project to load but now it is back to playing only 2 cards again and I cant get a finished project to open again ...just goes into not responding and my cpu hovers around 100...(48-50 in the task manager so I assume this is around 100 for that cpu)if anyone wants to chat online... I am thesandbox1 in yahoo or thesandbox (estematt -skype name)on skype

dnafe wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 15:06

As I don't have Senderella installed yet it's dumb Q time again

Just under the black bar in Senderella is a "(send#1)"

Am I correct in assuming this is user adjustable from 1 - 64 depending on the number of instances of Senderella you have open?

To be quite honest, I'm not sure what that is. I think it's a preset that shows up in the FXPansion wrapper format, but without Paris in front of me I can't say for sure. The only controls in Senderella that I played with are the ones in the green area starting with Channel.

In paris Senderella can create 64 mono virtual auxes, and the channel simply indicates what return the signal is summed at.

I've got some more experimenting to do, but I think I may have found a way to get group aux send automation in paris by using Senderella on the native submix FX Auxes. I'll save that tutorial for later.

Cheers

KGreat job Kris!This is to cool Kris, thanks a bunch.

PS: So your new P55-UD3L MOBO is working ok, I think I have a bit of a IRQ conflict happening with my 3rd EDS and my UAD-1 PCI, seems they are both fighting for bandwidth on IRQ 19. At 50% UAD load, Paris will just stop playback with the streaming error and the UAD card will disappear from the UAD ctrl panel(no card detected), need to reboot pc to get UAD back. I think I have to switch over to "Standard PC" instead of ACPI and then manually assign some IRQs if I can, hope this works.

Chow
Rob_A So far, so good on the Mobo, but I haven't stress tested it. Also, I opted not to put the UAD-1 back in. Too many headaches with advancing tracks, or deleting time.

The only issue I've been running into is an occasional crash on exit. That, and the Soundtoys plug-ins I'm demoing generate a 'ticking' sound (I tried them wrapped into Direct-x, as VSTs, and with Chainer, and the behavior is the same. This only happens in Paris, and it doesn't matter how many tracks I have going at the same time. Too bad...they sound good in Wavelab. I wonder if Paris.cfg settings could affect that. Maybe I need to set the EDSTransfer value

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101187 is a reply to message #101186]

Wed, 19 November 2008 18:49

kerryg

Messages: 1529
Registered: February 2009

Senior Member
Administrator

to something.

Does anyone have the scoop on what the various settings in the paris config file do?

"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101190 is a reply to message #101186]

Wed, 19 November 2008 20:59

Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006

Senior Member

ind the ugly brown interface that paris adds to vst's). Me, I just used it a wrapped direct-x using FXpansion.

Cheers

KrisSenderella acts pretty strange here as a VST - it has gibberish as values and won't save presets (not that this is a big deal given the limited parameters). I'll try it wrapped.

OK, took some more steps towards documenting what's known about the Paris.cfg over here.Senderella has no gui itself, so it uses the host's gui...which I guess doesn't work so well in Paris.

I haven't tried saving a project with Senderella yet. So you're ahead of me th

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101193 is a reply to message #101175]

Wed, 19 November 2008 21:34

Deej [5]
Messages: 373
Registered: March 2008

Senior Member

be "toughening it up" for robustness. Do you think it's a matter of "forcing" the buffers to match what the PARIS FX system expects, or is it a lot more than that?

PS: as time permits I'll get some links up to a couple of other cool PARIS-related things we have source code for - maybe a couple of "no longer supporteds" we might be able to ask if we can adopt too. Not meaning to rope you into anything, but maybe there's other code folk out there in the community as well that mig

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101196 is a reply to message #101193]

Thu, 20 November 2008 01:42

rick

Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006

Senior Member

d silence - and particularly PARIS.

Wasn't there some story about SSC having a shooting range out back of his house where folks were invited to bring Alesis equipment for shotgun practice?There is a decent Color chart here: http://cloford.com/resources/colours/500col.htm
There is also a program called CPick which is very useful...
MBYep that would explain the whole story.

Is there a range for shooting A-dats? Maybe not
yet. They are still the stellar king to (my wife).
If we ever divorce she can take them and I will take
the paris. Seems only fair.

Cheers,

Jeffhey pab,

i tried to email you, but your addy won't fly so could you shoo

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Re: Scherzo news... [message #101197 is a reply to message #101174]

Thu, 20 November 2008 03:58

Robert

Messages: 127
Registered: May 2007

Senior Member

t me your current one.

rick

thesandbox1 wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 14:53

Ok, I just don't see anything on a global mix bus for EQ. I see them on the 16 input channels but not the mix buss or the master buss. Where are you guys finding it. I know I can add comp. on the bus and master.

Oh, yea bye the way my system is sounding much better now with it's wires in phase. Also there where channel 6 that had a strand of wire bridging pin 1 & 2. That's the reason for the poor high end sound also. Looks like someone rewired the harness it did not come that way (im sure).

Cheers,

JeffOk, I try-ed to get some recording done tonight on the Mec(B)
I send a signal to input #1 and

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