Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » FOr those that pray...and even those who don't
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| Re: FOr those that pray...and even those who don't [message #85050 is a reply to message #85049] |
Wed, 23 May 2007 09:15   |
Tom Bruhl
Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
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gt; Here's a 2004 finding
> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>
> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>
> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>
>
> 27 July 2005
>
>
> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
> Year…Do They Take American Express??
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>
> [Bryanna Bevens <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New
> Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year…Do They
> Take American Express??>] [Email This Article]
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
> [Print This Article]
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>
>
> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
> in the U.S.
>
> Silly mortal…what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be–he should have used
> graphs and flow charts…you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity
> for interpretation.
>
> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP–whatever that’s supposed to be)
> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>
> Hmm…I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise…the
> cost is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
> prohibitive.
>
> [extracted from the report linked below]
>
> “Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more.
> Spending $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the
> Department of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more
> than double the annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8
> billion).”
>
> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>
> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
> google warring?
>
> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and how
> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>
> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will it
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| Re: UPDATE- For those that pray...and even those who don't [message #85064 is a reply to message #85062] |
Wed, 23 May 2007 11:53 |
JeffH
Messages: 307
Registered: October 2007
Location: Wamic, OR
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Senior Member |
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> >>>>>> someone
> >>>>>> saying by who??
> >>>>
> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is
> >>>>> because
> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
>"Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>Neil,
>I like much of what you're doing. At your level you should let the pros
=
>in the
>mastering world take your stuff to the next level. Try what Aaron said
=
>and/or take it to=20
>a mastering engineer you trust. That's their gig.
Thanks Tom - I'm not trying to do half-ass mastering (is that
anything like half-speed mastering? lol!), I'm just trying to
get the final stage of what I produce to be closer to that
level. I'm telling the guys I've been working with that they
should get thier stuff mastered, but when all they want is a
promo CD of a few songs to give away at gigs, or to send off to
clubs in other cities in order to try & get gigs, I think it's
hard for them to justify the additional expense. OR... if it's
a work in progress, as in they're recording three songs, and
then three months later they can afford to record three more -
in the meanwhile I can make the three they did sound "finished"
(or closer to it), then that's just an extra benefit that I can
offer, ya know?
NeilChas. Duncan <duncan5199ATsbcglobalDOTnet@> wrote:
>I'm out of the studio this week, helping a guy paint the house, so I
>should have plenty of dB's to spare. I will send you a couple as soon
>as I get a chance.
Excellent... upload them to my FTP site, would you?
>Hope this helps.
Absolutely. Thanks.
:)http://www.tigerdirect.com/email/wem1393.asp?CMP=ILC-FPM02BI Hear ya.. Good job!! onthe project .>Sounds good as is..LAD
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>"LaMont" <jjpdro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>hey Neil.. I know what you mean. when I'm mixing todays R&B/hip hop, which
>>is just as agressive as metal, in Nuendo/SX..I struggle to get the HOTT!!!ness.
>>
>>
>>I've been saying this for awhile now. SX/neundo, starts to breakdown and
>>start echewing artifacts when you start slamming tracks.. Okay Rememdies..
>>
>>-Sum out to any decent mixer with a decent comp..Masterlink
>>-Get a Paris System to Mix ..You already knwo what it can do ..
>>-Strangly, mix the project in PT (LE,M-powered). Todays PT 7.x summing
buss
>>is much improved. Wider than Nuendo/SX
>>
>
>See, I've tried that external summing stuff, remember? I liked
>certain aspects of it, but I really did feel I was losing some
>definition & was gaining "Phatness", but at the cost of also
>getting high-end veiling.
>
>NeilAMD may be getting ready to release the Barcelona quad? That would be my
guess. It's supposed to be a monster...but talk's cheap.
;o)
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:467ab815$1@linux...
>
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/email/wem1393.asp?CMP=ILC-FPM02BAhhhh.....sorry, forgot.
"Neil" <IOUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:467a9e6c$1@linux...
>
> "Deej" <somewheredowntown@durango.net> wrote:
>>
>>Neil,
>>
>>Run your stereo us to Paris via ADAT. Apply NoLimit. You have Paris. Get
>>an ADAT card and be done with this.
>
> Deej, I HAVE an ADAT card... I got it from you!
>
> And I can't run it out to Paris in the digital domain - I'm at
> 88.2k, remember?
>
> NeilI know apple has stated that they will be 64 OXS in October 07, when can expect
MS to give us a true 64 bit OS ..?
2) When acan we expect the current DAW's to recode in 64 bit , rather than
32 bit.
I read somewhere on Nuendo.com that that they (Steinberg) thinks 32 bit is
enough and that 64 bit is not needed. But, they are exploring the feasability
of going 64 bit.
Meanwhile, the hardware market keeps advancing with newer faster stuff. most
of us are already 64 bit compatible. Only waiting for an WIn os and 64 bit
DAW to take full advantage of our current workstations..
We kkep porrign money into a 32 bit system trying to make a 32 bit OS faster,
but we are only seeeing marginal returns. What gives??
I think it's time to put on the brakes and just let the Hardware, software
companies come to an agreement .
I'm sitting on the fence from here on. I'm still looking into Digital mixers,
but that's it..Yeah. That's what I hear as well. AMD's new monster is supposed to have better
floatign point proccessing (%35 percent) than the core2 dual. Also, I hear
that both Apple and Dell wil lbe using this processor.
"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>AMD may be getting ready to release the Barcelona quad? That would be my
>guess. It's supposed to be a monster...but talk's cheap.
>
>;o)
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:467ab815$1@linux...
>>
>> http://www.tigerdirect.com/email/wem1393.asp?CMP=ILC-FPM02B
>
>Haven't we gone over this already? There's minimal advantage to running a
64 bit OS for audio. The '64 bits' are integer bits, so the real advantages
are in the ability to address file space and RAM larger than a 32 bit OS.
The floating point processing (all that matters for audio) has been 64 bits
or more (or less in parallel, which is usually where you get the real bump)
for years now. Some people report incremental improvements using the 64 bit
version of XP but I'll bet you hash brownies to has browns that's because
M$oft is trickling their Server 2003 tech into XP 64 so it has better memory
management.
If you're interested, XP 64 and Vista 64 are pretty much 64 bit through and
through. I don't know about driver support, but at the OS level. Cakewalk
has a '64 bit audio engine' which since it's floating point can be used on
32 bit versions of XP.
Bottom line, unless you want to run more than 3 GB of RAM I don't think 64
bit operating systems make much difference.
TCB
"LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I know apple has stated that they will be 64 OXS in October 07, when can
expect
>MS to give us a true 64 bit OS ..?
>
>2) When acan we expect the current DAW's to recode in 64 bit , rather than
>32 bit.
>
>I read somewhere on Nuendo.com that that they (Steinberg) thinks 32 bit
is
>enough and that 64 bit is not needed. But, they are exploring the feasability
>of going 64 bit.
>
>Meanwhile, the hardware market keeps advancing with newer faster stuff.
most
>of us are already 64 bit compatible. Only waiting for an WIn os and 64 bit
>DAW to take full advantage of our current workstations..
>We kkep porrign money into a 32 bit system trying to make a 32 bit OS faster,
>but we are only seeeing marginal returns. What gives??
>
>I think it's time to put on the brakes and just let the Hardware, software
>companies come to an agreement .
>
>I'm sitting on the fence from here on. I'm still looking into Digital mixers,
>but that's it..The normal hieght of a single rack space is 1.75". I need a couple of them
that are 1/2 height (or 0.875")
Google shows nothing. Anyone know if these are avaliable somewhere? I'm
getting ready to go find a sheet metal source otherwise. Sheet metal
sources are kinda' rare around here (and my time is even rarer) so I
thought I'd ask first.
Thanks,
Deejhttp://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EB1
"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>The normal hieght of a single rack space is 1.75". I need a couple of them
>that are 1/2 height (or 0.875")
>
>Google shows nothing. Anyone know if these are avaliable somewhere? I'm
>getting ready to go find a sheet metal source otherwise. Sheet metal
>sources are kinda' rare around here (and my time is even rarer) so I
>thought I'd ask first.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Deej
>
>Thanks Thad.. So, if I have Server 2003 (64) that's a true 64 bit OS?? I do
have a legit copy of Server 2003 (64 bit)..
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Haven't we gone over this already? There's minimal advantage to running
a
>64 bit OS for audio. The '64 bits' are integer bits, so the real advantages
>are in the ability to address file space and RAM larger than a 32 bit OS.
>The floating point processing (all that matters for audio) has been 64 bits
>or more (or less in parallel, which is usually where you get the real bump)
>for years now. Some people report incremental improvements using the 64
bit
>version of XP but I'll bet you hash brownies to has browns that's because
>M$oft is trickling their Server 2003 tech into XP 64 so it has better memory
>management.
>
>If you're interested, XP 64 and Vista 64 are pretty much 64 bit through
and
>through. I don't know about driver support, but at the OS level. Cakewalk
>has a '64 bit audio engine' which since it's floating point can be used
on
>32 bit versions of XP.
>
>Bottom line, unless you want to run more than 3 GB of RAM I don't think
64
>bit operating systems make much difference.
>
>TCB
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>I know apple has stated that they will be 64 OXS in October 07, when can
>expect
>>MS to give us a true 64 bit OS ..?
>>
>>2) When acan we expect the current DAW's to recode in 64 bit , rather than
>>32 bit.
>>
>>I read somewhere on Nuendo.com that that they (Steinberg) thinks 32 bit
>is
>>enough and that 64 bit is not needed. But, they are exploring the feasability
>>of going 64 bit.
>>
>>Meanwhile, the hardware market keeps advancing with newer faster stuff.
>most
>>of us are already 64 bit compatible. Only waiting for an WIn os and 64
bit
>>DAW to take full advantage of our current workstations..
>>We kkep porrign money into a 32 bit system trying to make a 32 bit OS faster,
>>but we are only seeeing marginal returns. What gives??
>>
>>I think it's time to put on the brakes and just let the Hardware, software
>>companies come to an agreement .
>>
>>I'm sitting on the fence from here on. I'm still looking into Digital mixers,
>>but that's it..
>Sorry DJ, I did not read your post completely.
You could call Mid-Atlantic to see if they will make you a custome size..
"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>The normal hieght of a single rack space is 1.75". I need a couple of them
>that are 1/2 height (or 0.875")
>
>Google shows nothing. Anyone know if these are avaliable somewhere? I'm
>getting ready to go find a sheet metal source otherwise. Sheet metal
>sources are kinda' rare around here (and my time is even rarer) so I
>thought I'd ask first.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Deej
>
>Yup, it's really 64 bit. Of course there is code in there to run legacy 32
bit (and 16 bit, sorta) apps, but the kernel and all of the low level stuff
is really 64 bit. If your hardware has drivers for XP 64 the odds are good
they'll work on Server 2003.
Server 2003 is also just about the best M$oft OS I've ever dealt with. We
had a machine serving up VMs that ran for 600+ days without a reboot and
the reboot happened because we were renovating the office and had to take
_everything_ down while major electrical work was done.
TCB
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>Thanks Thad.. So, if I have Server 2003 (64) that's a true 64 bit OS?? I
do
>have a legit copy of Server 2003 (64 bit)..
>
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Haven't we gone over this already? There's minimal advantage to running
>a
>>64 bit OS for audio. The '64 bits' are integer bits, so the real advantages
>>are in the ability to address file space and RAM larger than a 32 bit OS.
>>The floating point processing (all that matters for audio) has been 64
bits
>>or more (or less in parallel, which is usually where you get the real bump)
>>for years now. Some people report incremental improvements using the 64
>bit
>>version of XP but I'll bet you hash brownies to has browns that's because
>>M$oft is trickling their Server 2003 tech into XP 64 so it has better memory
>>management.
>>
>>If you're interested, XP 64 and Vista 64 are pretty much 64 bit through
>and
>>through. I don't know about driver support, but at the OS level. Cakewalk
>>has a '64 bit audio engine' which since it's floating point can be used
>on
>>32 bit versions of XP.
>>
>>Bottom line, unless you want to run more than 3 GB of RAM I don't think
>64
>>bit operating systems make much difference.
>>
>>TCB
>>
>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>I know apple has stated that they will be 64 OXS in October 07, when can
>>expect
>>>MS to give us a true 64 bit OS ..?
>>>
>>>2) When acan we expect the current DAW's to recode in 64 bit , rather
than
>>>32 bit.
>>>
>>>I read somewhere on Nuendo.com that that they (Steinberg) thinks 32 bit
>>is
>>>enough and that 64 bit is not needed. But, they are exploring the feasability
>>>of going 64 bit.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, the hardware market keeps advancing with newer faster stuff.
>>most
>>>of us are already 64 bit compatible. Only waiting for an WIn os and 64
>bit
>>>DAW to take full advantage of our current workstations..
>>>We kkep porrign money into a 32 bit system trying to make a 32 bit OS
faster,
>>>but we are only seeeing marginal returns. What gives??
>>>
>>>I think it's time to put on the brakes and just let the Hardware, software
>>>companies come to an agreement .
>>>
>>>I'm sitting on the fence from here on. I'm still looking into Digital
mixers,
>>>but that's it..
>>
>Thanks THAD.. I agree with your accessments of Server 2003.. Solid!!
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Yup, it's really 64 bit. Of course there is code in there to run legacy
32
>bit (and 16 bit, sorta) apps, but the kernel and all of the low level stuff
>is really 64 bit. If your hardware has drivers for XP 64 the odds are good
>they'll work on Server 2003.
>
>Server 2003 is also just about the best M$oft OS I've ever dealt with. We
>had a machine serving up VMs that ran for 600+ days without a reboot and
>the reboot happened because we were renovating the office and had to take
>_everything_ down while major electrical work was done.
>
>TCB
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>Thanks Thad.. So, if I have Server 2003 (64) that's a true 64 bit OS??
I
>do
>>have a legit copy of Server 2003 (64 bit)..
>>
>>
>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Haven't we gone over this already? There's minimal advantage to running
>>a
>>>64 bit OS for audio. The '64 bits' are integer bits, so the real advantages
>>>are in the ability to address file space and RAM larger than a 32 bit
OS.
>>>The floating point processing (all that matters for audio) has been 64
>bits
>>>or more (or less in parallel, which is usually where you get the real
bump)
>>>for years now. Some people report incremental improvements using the 64
>>bit
>>>version of XP but I'll bet you hash brownies to has browns that's because
>>>M$oft is trickling their Server 2003 tech into XP 64 so it has better
memory
>>>management.
>>>
>>>If you're interested, XP 64 and Vista 64 are pretty much 64 bit through
>>and
>>>through. I don't know about driver support, but at the OS level. Cakewalk
>>>has a '64 bit audio engine' which since it's floating point can be used
>>on
>>>32 bit versions of XP.
>>>
>>>Bottom line, unless you want to run more than 3 GB of RAM I don't think
>>64
>>>bit operating systems make much difference.
>>>
>>>TCB
>>>
>>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I know apple has stated that they will be 64 OXS in October 07, when
can
>>>expect
>>>>MS to give us a true 64 bit OS ..?
>>>>
>>>>2) When acan we expect the current DAW's to recode in 64 bit , rather
>than
>>>>32 bit.
>>>>
>>>>I read somewhere on Nuendo.com that that they (Steinberg) thinks 32 bit
>>>is
>>>>enough and that 64 bit is not needed. But, they are exploring the feasability
>>>>of going 64 bit.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, the hardware market keeps advancing with newer faster stuff.
>>>most
>>>>of us are already 64 bit compatible. Only waiting for an WIn os and 64
>>bit
>>>>DAW to take full advantage of our current workstations..
>>>>We kkep porrign money into a 32 bit system trying to make a 32 bit OS
>faster,
>>>>but we are only seeeing marginal returns. What gives??
>>>>
>>>>I think it's time to put on the brakes and just let the Hardware, software
>>>>companies come to an agreement .
>>>>
>>>>I'm sitting on the fence from here on. I'm still looking into Digital
>mixers,
>>>>but that's it..
>>>
>>
>Hi Lamont,
The only thing preventing any 64 bit advancement at this point the 3rd
party software and hardware manufacturers to write 64 bit driver and
program support. The host applications need to come first. There is
nothing close to a fully 64 bit audio app on any platform. All the
plug-ins in Sonar are 32 bit and running in a shell to function in a 64
bit. All with anywhere from 5 to 10% resource hit. The plug-ins do get
the benefit of address a full 4 gigs but in most case are performing no
better and in some cases far worse with this method.
Hardware developers right now do not have completely 64 bit coded
drivers. In most cases they played with them enough so that they would
install and function in a 64 bit OS and thats about it.
ASIO is still 32 bit, VST is still 32 bit. There is supposedly 64 bit
available in the VST spec but not in ASIO AFAIK though no one is doing
anything with it.
All of the main host programs run on 64 bit OS es just fine.
32 bit apps like Cubendo, Reaper, Sonar, Samplitude all run great on
Windows 64 bit pro and can address up to 4 gigs of ram. But runs no
better CPU performance wise than 32 bit XP. Windows 64 pro is basically
just a stripped down Server 2003 64. But its more than likely gonna
suffer a quiet death like Windows ME did.
All of these except Nuendo will install correctly in Vista 64. but with
the current bottle necks in Vista and the unfinished audio WaveRT driver
spec don't expect very good performance out of it anytime soon.
Sonar 32 bit no better than the 64 bit version ina 64 bit OS. The
supposed benefit is you can use address beyond 4 gigs. Of course all of
the VSTi in Sonar and all the 3rd party ones are 32 bit and they all
still bottom out using Sonar's bit bridge at 4 gigs soooo.
The blame for this lies with all the parties. MS for not getting
development resources out to companies faster. Companies for using that
as an excuse to be lazy in there development.
Supposedly Steinyha are planning on Nuendo being 64 bit and finally
making it so it can handle 4 or more core properly. But who knows.
Every sense who ever in Germany decided to bail and cash in or whatever
and sold to Pinnacle they have been in Chaos. Just before that point
they were the most innovative and revolutionary company in the native
audio software world and basically made the pro-audio sound card
business outside be what it is today. There is not a single audio
software that basically owes its very current existence to Steinberg
innovations. But now who knows what their future is. Yamaha I think will
hold on to them as long as possible and keep em going. Steinberg need to
get back in focus soon before they loose too much more ground. I'm not
sure who if anybody is actually steering the ship at this if anybody.
They need to get back their creative direction and fast. All the
copycats are circling around them like vultures at this point.
Chris
LaMont wrote:
> Thanks Thad.. So, if I have Server 2003 (64) that's a true 64 bit OS?? I do
> have a legit copy of Server 2003 (64 bit)..
>
>
> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>> Haven't we gone over this already? There's minimal advantage to running
> a
>> 64 bit OS for audio. The '64 bits' are integer bits, so the real advantages
>> are in the ability to address file space and RAM larger than a 32 bit OS.
>> The floating point processing (all that matters for audio) has been 64 bits
>> or more (or less in parallel, which is usually where you get the real bump)
>> for years now. Some people report incremental improvements using the 64
> bit
>> version of XP but I'll bet you hash brownies to has browns that's because
>> M$oft is trickling their Server 2003 tech into XP 64 so it has better memory
>> management.
>>
>> If you're interested, XP 64 and Vista 64 are pretty much 64 bit through
> and
>> through. I don't know about driver support, but at the OS level. Cakewalk
>> has a '64 bit audio engine' which since it's floating point can be used
> on
>> 32 bit versions of XP.
>>
>> Bottom line, unless you want to run more than 3 GB of RAM I don't think
> 64
>> bit operating systems make much difference.
>>
>> TCB
>>
>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I know apple has stated that they will be 64 OXS in October 07, when can
>> expect
>>> MS to give us a true 64 bit OS ..?
>>>
>>> 2) When acan we expect the current DAW's to recode in 64 bit , rather than
>>> 32 bit.
>>>
>>> I read somewhere on Nuendo.com that that they (Steinberg) thinks 32 bit
>> is
>>> enough and that 64 bit is not needed. But, they are exploring the feasability
>>> of going 64 bit.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, the hardware market keeps advancing with newer faster stuff.
>> most
>>> of us are already 64 bit compatible. Only waiting for an WIn os and 64
> bit
>>> DAW to take full advantage of our current workstations..
>>> We kkep porrign money into a 32 bit system trying to make a 32 bit OS faster,
>>> but we are only seeeing marginal returns. What gives??
>>>
>>> I think it's time to put on the brakes and just let the Hardware, software
>>> companies come to an agreement .
>>>
>>> I'm sitting on the fence from here on. I'm still looking into Digital mixers,
>>> but that's it..
>
--
Chris Ludwig
ADK Pro Audio
(859) 635-5762
www.adkproaudio.com
chrisl@adkproaudio.comhttp://www.uaudio.com/
LA-3A and a Neve 88RS Channel Strip. Interesting...
GrahamChris, great post.. Thanks for the history lessons on the state of Steinberg.
On Nuendo.com, Steingerg issues a statement concerning Nunedo 4. Stating
that they wer not going to rush the product out and wanted to make sure they
had properly tested the revision.
It never ends. Well, I think this opens the door for Apple to rush in with
Killer (64bit) DAW along with thier 64 bit OS.
Also, I hear that Digi is already with a 64 bit version of Pro Tools on Both
MS and Apple. So is Motu. So... Steiny better get it together.
Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>Hi Lamont,
>
>The only thing preventing any 64 bit advancement at this point the 3rd
>party software and hardware manufacturers to write 64 bit driver and
>program support. The host applications need to come first. There is
>nothing close to a fully 64 bit audio app on any platform. All the
>plug-ins in Sonar are 32 bit and running in a shell to function in a 64
>bit. All with anywhere from 5 to 10% resource hit. The plug-ins do get
>the benefit of address a full 4 gigs but in most case are performing no
>better and in some cases far worse with this method.
>Hardware developers right now do not have completely 64 bit coded
>drivers. In most cases they played with them enough so that they would
>install and function in a 64 bit OS and thats about it.
>ASIO is still 32 bit, VST is still 32 bit. There is supposedly 64 bit
>available in the VST spec but not in ASIO AFAIK though no one is doing
>anything with it.
>
>All of the main host programs run on 64 bit OS es just fine.
>32 bit apps like Cubendo, Reaper, Sonar, Samplitude all run great on
>Windows 64 bit pro and can address up to 4 gigs of ram. But runs no
>better CPU performance wise than 32 bit XP. Windows 64 pro is basically
>just a stripped down Server 2003 64. But its more than likely gonna
>suffer a quiet death like Windows ME did.
>All of these except Nuendo will install correctly in Vista 64. but with
>the current bottle necks in Vista and the unfinished audio WaveRT driver
>spec don't expect very good performance out of it anytime soon.
>
>Sonar 32 bit no better than the 64 bit version ina 64 bit OS. The
>supposed benefit is you can use address beyond 4 gigs. Of course all of
>the VSTi in Sonar and all the 3rd party ones are 32 bit and they all
>still bottom out using Sonar's bit bridge at 4 gigs soooo.
>
>The blame for this lies with all the parties. MS for not getting
>development resources out to companies faster. Companies for using that
>as an excuse to be lazy in there development.
>
>Supposedly Steinyha are planning on Nuendo being 64 bit and finally
>making it so it can handle 4 or more core properly. But who knows.
>Every sense who ever in Germany decided to bail and cash in or whatever
>and sold to Pinnacle they have been in Chaos. Just before that point
>they were the most innovative and revolutionary company in the native
>audio software world and basically made the pro-audio sound card
>business outside be what it is today. There is not a single audio
>software that basically owes its very current existence to Steinberg
>innovations. But now who knows what their future is. Yamaha I think will
>hold on to them as long as possible and keep em going. Steinberg need to
>get back in focus soon before they loose too much more ground. I'm not
>sure who if anybody is actually steering the ship at this if anybody.
>They need to get back their creative direction and fast. All the
>copycats are circling around them like vultures at this point.
>
>
>Chris
>
>
>
>LaMont wrote:
>> Thanks Thad.. So, if I have Server 2003 (64) that's a true 64 bit OS??
I do
>> have a legit copy of Server 2003 (64 bit)..
>>
>>
>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>> Haven't we gone over this already? There's minimal advantage to running
>> a
>>> 64 bit OS for audio. The '64 bits' are integer bits, so the real advantages
>>> are in the ability to address file space and RAM larger than a 32 bit
OS.
>>> The floating point processing (all that matters for audio) has been 64
bits
>>> or more (or less in parallel, which is usually where you get the real
bump)
>>> for years now. Some people report incremental improvements using the
64
>> bit
>>> version of XP but I'll bet you hash brownies to has browns that's because
>>> M$oft is trickling their Server 2003 tech into XP 64 so it has better
memory
>>> management.
>>>
>>> If you're interested, XP 64 and Vista 64 are pretty much 64 bit through
>> and
>>> through. I don't know about driver support, but at the OS level. Cakewalk
>>> has a '64 bit audio engine' which since it's floating point can be used
>> on
>>> 32 bit versions of XP.
>>>
>>> Bottom line, unless you want to run more than 3 GB of RAM I don't think
>> 64
>>> bit operating systems make much difference.
>>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I know apple has stated that they will be 64 OXS in October 07, when
can
>>> expect
>>>> MS to give us a true 64 bit OS ..?
>>>>
>>>> 2) When acan we expect the current DAW's to recode in 64 bit , rather
than
>>>> 32 bit.
>>>>
>>>> I read somewhere on Nuendo.com that that they (Steinberg) thinks 32
bit
>>> is
>>>> enough and that 64 bit is not needed. But, they are exploring the feasability
>>>> of going 64 bit.
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, the hardware market keeps advancing with newer faster stuff.
>>> most
>>>> of us are already 64 bit compatible. Only waiting for an WIn os and
64
>> bit
>>>> DAW to take full advantage of our current workstations..
>>>> We kkep porrign money into a 32 bit system trying to make a 32 bit OS
faster,
>>>> but we are only seeeing marginal returns. What gives??
>>>>
>>>> I think it's time to put on the brakes and just let the Hardware, software
>>>> companies come to an agreement .
>>>>
>>>> I'm sitting on the fence from here on. I'm still looking into Digital
mixers,
>>>> but that's it..
>>
>
>--
>Chris Ludwig
>
>ADK Pro Audio
>(859) 635-5762
>www.adkproaudio.com
>chrisl@adkproaudio.comhey everybody. i recently moved across the country and my paris driver has,
for some reason, stopped functioning. i thought i had a copy of it in my
computer but cannot find it. i was wondering if anybody could point me to
it or email it to me?
thanks!
-david
davidevanmusic@yahoo.comDid you see the Apple WWDC demo video where they showed a 32 bit application
rendering a vary large photo up against the 64bit version of the same apps?
The 64 bit versions were more than twice as fast.
I think most of the big software companies will be coding for 64 bit soon.
I think Logic will be taking advantage of this.
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>Yeah. That's what I hear as well. AMD's new monster is supposed to have
better
>floatign point proccessing (%35 percent) than the core2 dual. Also, I hear
>that both Apple and Dell wil lbe using this processor.
>
>
>"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>AMD may be getting ready to release the Barcelona quad? That would be my
>
>>guess. It's supposed to be a monster...but talk's cheap.
>>
>>;o)
>>
>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:467ab815$1@linux...
>>>
>>> http://www.tigerdirect.com/email/wem1393.asp?CMP=ILC-FPM02B
>>
>>
>I'm gonna try to just bite one in half.
;o)
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:467ac876$1@linux...
>
> Sorry DJ, I did not read your post completely.
>
> You could call Mid-Atlantic to see if they will make you a custome size..
>
> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>The normal hieght of a single rack space is 1.75". I need a couple of them
>
>>that are 1/2 height (or 0.875")
>>
>>Google shows nothing. Anyone know if these are avaliable somewhere? I'm
>
>>getting ready to go find a sheet metal source otherwise. Sheet metal
>>sources are kinda' rare around here (and my time is even rarer) so I
>>thought I'd ask first.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Deej
>>
>>
>Hi Lamont,
LaMont wrote:
> Chris, great post.. Thanks for the history lessons on the state of Steinberg.
>
> On Nuendo.com, Steingerg issues a statement concerning Nunedo 4. Stating
> that they wer not going to rush the product out and wanted to make sure they
> had properly tested the revision.
This technically is a good thing sense Cubase 4 should never have come
out. I should have come out when Nuendo 4 does. They were basically I
think forced into it unprepared because of market/competition pressure
of Sonar making their "claims" of 64 bit. But in the end only they are
to blame for doing that. Cakewalk just saw the opportunity of
Steinberg's Chaos.
>
> It never ends. Well, I think this opens the door for Apple to rush in with
> Killer (64bit) DAW along with their 64 bit OS.
>
> Also, I hear that Digi is already with a 64 bit version of Pro Tools on Both
> MS and Apple. So is Motu.
Well we'll have to see if it is really a purely 64 bit version or just
made to work on the 64 bit platform.
MOTU and RME are the only units with reliable drivers in XP64 pro or
Vista 64. RME is about to make a big splash on the Mac with all there
HDSP line coming out in PCi-e format.
Now we just gotta wait for all the little podunk plug-in developers
re-write their plug-ins to be 64 bit. Remember how long it took some of
them to get around to doing a VST version or doing a Audio Unit or even
worse a Intel Binary version? Multiply that by 2 lol.
So... Steiny better get it together.
yes I hope they do. Still got the bets over all GUI and concept in the
biz. IMHO.
Chris
> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>> Hi Lamont,
>>
>> The only thing preventing any 64 bit advancement at this point the 3rd
>> party software and hardware manufacturers to write 64 bit driver and
>> program support. The host applications need to come first. There is
>> nothing close to a fully 64 bit audio app on any platform. All the
>> plug-ins in Sonar are 32 bit and running in a shell to function in a 64
>
>> bit. All with anywhere from 5 to 10% resource hit. The plug-ins do get
>> the benefit of address a full 4 gigs but in most case are performing no
>
>> better and in some cases far worse with this method.
>> Hardware developers right now do not have completely 64 bit coded
>> drivers. In most cases they played with them enough so that they would
>> install and function in a 64 bit OS and thats about it.
>> ASIO is still 32 bit, VST is still 32 bit. There is supposedly 64 bit
>> available in the VST spec but not in ASIO AFAIK though no one is doing
>> anything with it.
>>
>> All of the main host programs run on 64 bit OS es just fine.
>> 32 bit apps like Cubendo, Reaper, Sonar, Samplitude all run great on
>> Windows 64 bit pro and can address up to 4 gigs of ram. But runs no
>> better CPU performance wise than 32 bit XP. Windows 64 pro is basically
>
>> just a stripped down Server 2003 64. But its more than likely gonna
>> suffer a quiet death like Windows ME did.
>> All of these except Nuendo will install correctly in Vista 64. but with
>
>> the current bottle necks in Vista and the unfinished audio WaveRT driver
>
>> spec don't expect very good performance out of it anytime soon.
>>
>> Sonar 32 bit no better than the 64 bit version ina 64 bit OS. The
>> supposed benefit is you can use address beyond 4 gigs. Of course all of
>
>> the VSTi in Sonar and all the 3rd party ones are 32 bit and they all
>> still bottom out using Sonar's bit bridge at 4 gigs soooo.
>>
>> The blame for this lies with all the parties. MS for not getting
>> development resources out to companies faster. Companies for using that
>
>> as an excuse to be lazy in there development.
>>
>> Supposedly Steinyha are planning on Nuendo being 64 bit and finally
>> making it so it can handle 4 or more core properly. But who knows.
>> Every sense who ever in Germany decided to bail and cash in or whatever
>
>> and sold to Pinnacle they have been in Chaos. Just before that point
>> they were the most innovative and revolutionary company in the native
>> audio software world and basically made the pro-audio sound card
>> business outside be what it is today. There is not a single audio
>> software that basically owes its very current existence to Steinberg
>> innovations. But now who knows what their future is. Yamaha I think will
>
>> hold on to them as long as possible and keep em going. Steinberg need to
>
>> get back in focus soon before they loose too much more ground. I'm not
>> sure who if anybody is actually steering the ship at this if anybody.
>> They need to get back their creative direction and fast. All the
>> copycats are circling around them like vultures at this point.
>>
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>> LaMont wrote:
>>> Thanks Thad.. So, if I have Server 2003 (64) that's a true 64 bit OS??
> I do
>>> have a legit copy of Server 2003 (64 bit)..
>>>
>>>
>>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>> Haven't we gone over this already? There's minimal advantage to running
>>> a
>>>> 64 bit OS for audio. The '64 bits' are integer bits, so the real advantages
>>>> are in the ability to address file space and RAM larger than a 32 bit
> OS.
>>>> The floating point processing (all that matters for audio) has been 64
> bits
>>>> or more (or less in parallel, which is usually where you get the real
> bump)
>>>> for years now. Some people report incremental improvements using the
> 64
>>> bit
>>>> version of XP but I'll bet you hash brownies to has browns that's because
>>>> M$oft is trickling their Server 2003 tech into XP 64 so it has better
> memory
>>>> management.
>>>>
>>>> If you're interested, XP 64 and Vista 64 are pretty much 64 bit through
>>> and
>>>> through. I don't know about driver support, but at the OS level. Cakewalk
>>>> has a '64 bit audio engine' which since it's floating point can be used
>>> on
>>>> 32 bit versions of XP.
>>>>
>>>> Bottom line, unless you want to run more than 3 GB of RAM I don't think
>>> 64
>>>> bit operating systems make much difference.
>>>>
>>>> TCB
>>>>
>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I know apple has stated that they will be 64 OXS in October 07, when
> can
>>>> expect
>>>>> MS to give us a true 64 bit OS ..?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) When acan we expect the current DAW's to recode in 64 bit , rather
> than
>>>>> 32 bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I read somewhere on Nuendo.com that that they (Steinberg) thinks 32
> bit
>>>> is
>>>>> enough and that 64 bit is not needed. But, they are exploring the feasability
>>>>> of going 64 bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, the hardware market keeps advancing with newer faster stuff.
>>>> most
>>>>> of us are already 64 bit compatible. Only waiting for an WIn os and
> 64
>>> bit
>>>>> DAW to take full advantage of our current workstations..
>>>>> We kkep porrign money into a 32 bit system trying to make a 32 bit OS
> faster,
>>>>> but we are only seeeing marginal returns. What gives??
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's time to put on the brakes and just let the Hardware, software
>>>>> companies come to an agreement .
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sitting on the fence from here on. I'm still looking into Digital
> mixers,
>>>>> but that's it..
>> --
>> Chris Ludwig
>>
>> ADK Pro Audio
>> (859) 635-5762
>> www.adkproaudio.com
>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>
--
Chris Ludwig
ADK Pro Audio
(859) 635-5762
www.adkproaudio.com
chrisl@adkproaudio.comsounds like a job for the pooches :)
AA
"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:467af85e@linux...
> I'm gonna try to just bite one in half.
>
> ;o)
>
> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:467ac876$1@linux...
>>
>> Sorry DJ, I did not read your post completely.
>>
>> You could call Mid-Atlantic to see if they will make you a custome size..
>>
>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>>The normal hieght of a single rack space is 1.75". I need a couple of
>>>them
>>
>>>that are 1/2 height (or 0.875")
>>>
>>>Google shows nothing. Anyone know if these are avaliable somewhere? I'm
>>
>>>getting ready to go find a sheet metal source otherwise. Sheet metal
>>>sources are kinda' rare around here (and my time is even rarer) so I
>>>thought I'd ask first.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Deej
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>hehe...went online & found it
"David Evan" <davidevanmusic@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:467af6ed@linux...
> hey everybody. i recently moved across the country and my paris driver
has,
> for some reason, stopped functioning. i thought i had a copy of it in my
> computer but cannot find it. i was wondering if anybody could point me to
> it or email it to me?
>
> thanks!
> -david
>
> davidevanmusic@yahoo.com
>
>Yes, but is it the right version for your time zone? That's
why the old one stopped working when you relocated, you know.
"David Evan" <davidevanmusic@yahoo.com> wrote:
>hehe...went online & found it
>
>"David Evan" <davidevanmusic@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:467af6ed@linux...
>> hey everybody. i recently moved across the country and my paris driver
>has,
>> for some reason, stopped functioning. i thought i had a copy of it in
my
>> computer but cannot find it. i was wondering if anybody could point me
to
>> it or email it to me?
>>
>> thanks!
>> -david
>>
>> davidevanmusic@yahoo.com
>>
>>
>
>yes, i know. I'm trying to get the deom to work. It automatically expired.
Nice
"Graham Duncan" <graham@grahamduncan.com> wrote in message
news:467aeb33@linux...
> http://www.uaudio.com/
>
> LA-3A and a Neve 88RS Channel Strip. Interesting...
>
> GrahamStrangly, mix the project in PT (LE,M-powered). Todays PT 7.x summing buss
> is much improved. Wider than Nuendo/SX
LaMont........this widening and phattening is exactly what the Portico 5042
does. I't so amazing obvious. I strap mine across the mix bus using Mytek
Stereo AD/DA. It just does the "BIG/WIDE" thing so well.
DeejMaybe they expect you to buy it right away? ;)
I'm sort of stuck between buying 3 more UAD-1s and a Magma chassis, or
going for the WAVES SSL + V Series. I hate having to buy an ilok to try
them out, but if they're as good as some folks say, it would be nice to
have that many instances and be more portable for working in different
rooms.
How much does a 7 or 13 space PCI Magma go for these days?
Graham
DJ wrote:
> yes, i know. I'm trying to get the deom to work. It automatically expired.
> NiceI thought I saw some at the local G.C. or maybe it was another
place around here recently - if you can wait 'til the weekend
I'll be happy to check for you.
Neil
"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>The normal hieght of a single rack space is 1.75". I need a couple of them
>that are 1/2 height (or 0.875")
>
>Google shows nothing. Anyone know if these are avaliable somewhere? I'm
>getting ready to go find a sheet metal source otherwise. Sheet metal
>sources are kinda' rare around here (and my time is even rarer) so I
>thought I'd ask first.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Deej
>
>Wait????.....you know damn good and well what will happen if I have to
wait!!!.....
;o)
....errrr.well......OK.....I'll wait. I think it would be a frickin' miricle
to find something like this. In the meantime, I'm gonna start gnawin on one.
;o)
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:467b12de$1@linux...
>
> I thought I saw some at the local G.C. or maybe it was another
> place around here recently - if you can wait 'til the weekend
> I'll be happy to check for you.
>
> Neil
>
>
> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>The normal hieght of a single rack space is 1.75". I need a couple of them
>
>>that are 1/2 height (or 0.875")
>>
>>Google shows nothing. Anyone know if these are avaliable somewhere? I'm
>
>>getting ready to go find a sheet metal source otherwise. Sheet metal
>>sources are kinda' rare around here (and my time is even rarer) so I
>>thought I'd ask first.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Deej
>>
>>
>"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>Wait????.....you know damn good and well what will happen if I have to
>wait!!!.....
You'll have to quit out of frustration & sell me all your high-
end gear at 10 cents on the dollar?
:)A 13 Space Magma can be had for around $450.00 - $500.00. If you're
interfacing PCI, a 7 space Magma won't work for 4 UAD-1 cards without some
mighty risky IRQ sharing. I wouldn't even go there. I'm speaking from some
pretty extensive experience.
I went ahead and bought the LA-3A because I had a voucher and they can
always deauthorize me if I decide I don't want it....but I'll tell you
what.....of all of the "vintage" UA processors, the LA-3A is the one I have
the mos experience with and this plugin nails it. Forward and cleanly "in
your face", just like the real deal. I'm very impressed.
Deej
"Graham Duncan" <graham@grahamduncan.com> wrote in message
news:467b10e9$1@linux...
> Maybe they expect you to buy it right away? ;)
>
> I'm sort of stuck between buying 3 more UAD-1s and a Magma chassis, or
> going for the WAVES SSL + V Series. I hate having to buy an ilok to try
> them out, but if they're as good as some folks say, it would be nice to
> have that many instances and be more portable for working in different
> rooms.
>
> How much does a 7 or 13 space PCI Magma go for these days?
>
> Graham
>
> DJ wrote:
>> yes, i know. I'm trying to get the deom to work. It automatically
>> expired. Nice......no, not Paris........I've got a Frontier Apache digital PB here. this
box runs very hot. Not recommended to rack this without space above.
DeejThere is a problem with AMDs and certain chipsets and the UAD1 isn't there?
DJ wrote:
> AMD may be getting ready to release the Barcelona quad? That would be my
> guess. It's supposed to be a monster...but talk's cheap.
>
> ;o)
>
> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:467ab815$1@linux...
>> http://www.tigerdirect.com/email/wem1393.asp?CMP=ILC-FPM02B
>
>Deportation is not necessary. If we spent $100 mill putting Americans
who hire illegals in jail, in short order there would be no jobs and the
illegals would have to go home (unless of course we put them all on
welfare).
Aaron Allen wrote:
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote in
> message news:467591fd@linux...
> >
> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of providing
> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
> >
> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
> >
> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by the
> > low wages they are paid?
> >
> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are
> using.
>
> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've
> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
> of states all the way to Cali.
>
> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on
> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when
> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of
> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an
> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
> $29 billion.
> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>
> Washington Post found about the same thing
> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in
> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in
> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>
> Here's a 2004 finding
> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>
> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>
> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>
>
> 27 July 2005
>
>
> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
> Year…Do They Take American Express??
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>
> [Bryanna Bevens <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New
> Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year…Do They
> Take American Express??>] [Email This Article]
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
> [Print This Article]
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>
>
> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
> in the U.S.
>
> Silly mortal…what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be–he should have used
> graphs and flow charts…you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity
> for interpretation.
>
> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP–whatever that’s supposed to be)
> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>
> Hmm…I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise…the
> cost is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
> prohibitive.
>
> [extracted from the report linked below]
>
> “Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more.
> Spending $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the
> Department of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more
> than double the annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8
> billion).”
>
> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>
> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
> google warring?
>
> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and how
> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>
> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will it
> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in
> goods/services but the big question lies in will the spending in the
> medical expenses and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how
> does our legal low end applicants play into that? How many of our legal
> jobless will suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves
> and family, and better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs,
> Mexicans or any other cultures. It's about responsibility to our house
> and ourselves and those around us. Perhaps others just
> see responsibility in a different way than I do.
>
> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all
> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay
> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money
> pit volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for
> it too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am
> not a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my
> dudes/dudettes. I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say
> plenty about that spirit, and things not generally public knowledge
> about me. I don't mind giving. But I want to give smart.
>
> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my
> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to stay
> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for themselves
> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my family's
> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of my
> house bank account?
>
> >
> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens. We
> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
> >
>
> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just
> have to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the
> last year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain
> tumor. She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro,
> first hand. I could relate some horror stories.
>
>
> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such :)
>
> > Cheers,
> > -Jamie
> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>
> Cheers back atcha'
>
> AA
>
>
> >
> >
> > Aaron Allen wrote:
> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>> wrote
> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like
> you
> >>> is:
> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
> >>
> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate
> since you
> >> don't see what I meant.
> >>
> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator,
> then
> >> hold the
> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
> >>> because
> >>> of govt mandates.
> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
> the fed
> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
> >>
> >>
> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd
> >> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life,
> and see
> >> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region,
> >> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained,
> cure/easing of
> >> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....
> >> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think
> the very
> >> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders.
> Illegals?
> >> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired
> of you
> >> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be in
> line
> >> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other
> programs. Don't
> >> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes and
> >> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary?
> At this
> >> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train
> wreck for
> >> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this point
> >> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going
> too
> >> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take
> the best
> >> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I
> have to
> >> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
> >>
> >> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people
> feel
> >> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free
> health care
> >> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has got
> a real
> >> historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement
> becomes
> >> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not
> necessarily
> >> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery
> like
> >> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't
> and I'm
> >> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to
> survive so
> >> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously
> not see
> >> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
> >>
> >>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
> >>> employer
> >>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic end.
> >>> Even
> >>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
> >>> employee
> >>> top notch medical care.
> >>
> >> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being
> bilked
> >> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That
> is very
> >> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and
> free
> >> loaders.
> >>
> >>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who
> belive that
> >>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford
> it..
> >>
> >> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them
> from my
> >> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal
> entry
> >> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to that,
> >> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories.
> Unfortunately we
> >> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into the
> >> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
> >>
> >>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can
> pay for
> >>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many
> >>> families
> >>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With rising
> >>> fuel
> >>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these
> days..
> >>
> >> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
> >> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to those
> >> numbers as an average.
> >>
> >>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only one
> >>> catstrophic
> >>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
> >>> horrible!!
> >>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked
> from you
> >>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has some
> >>> debilitating
> >>> disorder ????
> >>
> >> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or
> super broke
> >> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your
> money
> >> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is
> considered a
> >> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks, but
> it's a
> >> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into
> retirement or
> >> beyond.
> >>
> >>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70
> percent
> >>> "supplement"
> >>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have
> dignified
> >>> health
> >>> coverage.
> >>
> >> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal
> (how
> >> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on
> welfare or
> >> don't have insurance/money?
> >>
> >> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what
> they can
> >> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are
> now. Those
> >> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take
> it away
> >> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets
> screwed
> >> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the
> health
> >> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool
> can look
> >> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen.
> I've
> >> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon.
> I'm not
> >> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it
> doesn't work
> >> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
> >>
> >> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've
> got to
> >> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because so
> many
> >> things are a result of this root issue.
> >>
> >> AA
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude
> <mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude>> wrote:
> >>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that the
> >>>> 'govt'
> >>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then
> hold the
> >>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
> >>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
> >>>> because
> >>>> of govt mandates.
> >>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
> the fed
> >>>> gov't doing it? NO.
> >>>>
> >>>> AA
> >>>>
> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com <http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>>
> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
> >>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
> >>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those
> >>> who
> >>>>>> say
> >>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you
> and yours
> >>>>>> then
> >>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a
> even wost
> >>>>>> job.
> >>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
> >>>>>> someone
> >>>>>> saying by who??
> >>>>
> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is
> >>>>> because
> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
>Exactly. Cut off the free ride and the money and they'll be leaving. I'd be
just fine with paying a one time fee to scoot them out of the country, as
long as records are kept and they don't get a 2nd ride out/funds spent are
verifiable.
AA
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:467b3fb6@linux...
> Deportation is not necessary. If we spent $100 mill putting Americans who
> hire illegals in jail, in short order there would be no jobs and the
> illegals would have to go home (unless of course we put them all on
> welfare).
>
> Aaron Allen wrote:
>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote in
>> message news:467591fd@linux...
>> >
>> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of
>> providing
>> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
>> >
>> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
>> >
>> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by the
>> > low wages they are paid?
>> >
>> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are
>> using.
>> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
>> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've
>> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
>> of states all the way to Cali.
>> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
>> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on
>> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
>> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when
>> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
>> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of
>> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an
>> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
>> $29 billion.
>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>> Washington Post found about the same thing
>> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in
>> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in
>> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
>> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>> Here's a 2004 finding
>> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>>
>>
>> 27 July 2005
>>
>>
>> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
>> Year…Do They Take American Express??
>>
>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>>
>> [Bryanna Bevens <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
>> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New Study:
>> Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year…Do They Take
>> American Express??>] [Email This Article]
>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
>> [Print This Article]
>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
>> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
>> in the U.S.
>>
>> Silly mortal…what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
>> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be–he should have used
>> graphs and flow charts…you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity
>> for interpretation.
>>
>> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
>> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP–whatever that’s supposed to be)
>> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
>> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
>> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>>
>> Hmm…I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise…the cost
>> is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
>> prohibitive.
>>
>> [extracted from the report linked below]
>>
>> “Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
>> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
>> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more. Spending
>> $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the Department
>> of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more than double the
>> annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8 billion).”
>>
>> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
>> google warring?
>> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
>> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
>> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
>> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and how
>> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will it
>> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in goods/services
>> but the big question lies in will the spending in the medical expenses
>> and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how does our legal low
>> end applicants play into that? How many of our legal jobless will
>> suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves and family, and
>> better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, Mexicans or any other
>> cultures. It's about responsibility to our house and ourselves and those
>> around us. Perhaps others just see responsibility in a different way than
>> I do.
>>
>> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all
>> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
>> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
>> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay
>> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money pit
>> volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for it
>> too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am not
>> a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my dudes/dudettes.
>> I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty about that
>> spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't mind
>> giving. But I want to give smart.
>>
>> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my
>> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to stay
>> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for themselves
>> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
>> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my family's
>> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of my
>> house bank account?
>>
>> >
>> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens. We
>> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
>> >
>>
>> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just have
>> to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the last
>> year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain tumor.
>> She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro, first hand.
>> I could relate some horror stories.
>> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such :)
>>
>> > Cheers,
>> > -Jamie
>> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>>
>> Cheers back atcha'
>>
>> AA
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Aaron Allen wrote:
>> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>> wrote
>> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like
>> you
>> >>> is:
>> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>> >>
>> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate since
>> you
>> >> don't see what I meant.
>> >>
>> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator,
>> then
>> >> hold the
>> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>> >>> because
>> >>> of govt mandates.
>> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the
>> fed
>> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd
>> >> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life,
>> and see
>> >> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region,
>> >> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained, cure/easing
>> of
>> >> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....
>> >> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think
>> the very
>> >> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders.
>> Illegals?
>> >> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired
>> of you
>> >> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be in
>> line
>> >> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other
>> programs. Don't
>> >> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes and
>> >> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary?
>> At this
>> >> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train wreck
>> for
>> >> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this
>> point
>> >> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going
>> too
>> >> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take
>> the best
>> >> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I
>> have to
>> >> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>> >>
>> >> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people
>> feel
>> >> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free
>> health care
>> >> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has got
>> a real
>> >> historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement
>> becomes
>> >> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not
>> necessarily
>> >> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery
>> like
>> >> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't
>> and I'm
>> >> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to
>> survive so
>> >> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously
>> not see
>> >> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>> >>
>> >>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
>> >>> employer
>> >>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic
>> end.
>> >>> Even
>> >>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
>> >>> employee
>> >>> top notch medical care.
>> >>
>> >> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being
>> bilked
>> >> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That is
>> very
>> >> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and
>> free
>> >> loaders.
>> >>
>> >>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who
>> belive that
>> >>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford
>> it..
>> >>
>> >> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them
>> from my
>> >> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal
>> entry
>> >> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to
>> that,
>> >> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories. Unfortunately
>> we
>> >> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into the
>> >> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>> >>
>> >>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can
>> pay for
>> >>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many
>> >>> families
>> >>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With
>> rising
>> >>> fuel
>> >>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these
>> days..
>> >>
>> >> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
>> >> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to
>> those
>> >> numbers as an average.
>> >>
>> >>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only one
>> >>> catstrophic
>> >>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
>> >>> horrible!!
>> >>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked
>> from you
>> >>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has
>> some
>> >>> debilitating
>> >>> disorder ????
>> >>
>> >> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or
>> super broke
>> >> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your
>> money
>> >> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is
>> considered a
>> >> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks, but
>> it's a
>> >> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into
>> retirement or
>> >> beyond.
>> >>
>> >>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70
>> percent
>> >>> "supplement"
>> >>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have
>> dignified
>> >>> health
>> >>> coverage.
>> >>
>> >> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal
>> (how
>> >> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on
>> welfare or
>> >> don't have insurance/money?
>> >>
>> >> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what
>> they can
>> >> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are
>> now. Those
>> >> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take
>> it away
>> >> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets
>> screwed
>> >> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the
>> health
>> >> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool
>> can look
>> >> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen.
>> I've
>> >> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon.
>> I'm not
>> >> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it
>> doesn't work
>> >> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>> >>
>> >> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've
>> got to
>> >> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because so
>> many
>> >> things are a result of this root issue.
>> >>
>> >> AA
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude
>> <mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude>> wrote:
>> >>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that
>> the
>> >>>> 'govt'
>> >>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then hold
>> the
>> >>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>> >>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care
>> worker
>> >>>> because
>> >>>> of govt mandates.
>> >>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
>> the fed
>> >>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> AA
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com <http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>>
>> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>> >>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
>> wrote in message
>> >>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>> >>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand
>> those
>> >>> who
>> >>>>>> say
>> >>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and
>> yours
>> >>>>>> then
>> >>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a
>> even wost
>> >>>>>> job.
>> >>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can
>> hear
>> >>>>>> someone
>> >>>>>> saying by who??
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is
>> >>>>> because
>> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >>
>>Issues with both NForce 4 and the older AMD 8131 AFAIK.
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:467b3d99@linux...
> There is a problem with AMDs and certain chipsets and the UAD1 isn't
> there?
>
> DJ wrote:
>> AMD may be getting ready to release the Barcelona quad? That would be my
>> guess. It's supposed to be a monster...but talk's cheap.
>>
>> ;o)
>>
>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:467ab815$1@linux...
>>> http://www.tigerdirect.com/email/wem1393.asp?CMP=ILC-FPM02B
>>Thanks DJ. I guess I'll demo these tomorrow...
GrahamWow.. Now, we can have today a mix template of SSL and Neve 88rs channles
strips. I love my Sonalkis plugs.. This new Plugin from UAD might make me
finnaly purchase a dongle card just for the 88rs plug..
Graham Duncan <graham@grahamduncan.com> wrote:
>http://www.uaudio.com/
>
>LA-3A and a Neve 88RS Channel Strip. Interesting...
>
>GrahamOn 22 Jun 2007 10:43:58 +1000, "Neil" <OIOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>Wait????.....you know damn good and well what will happen if I have to
>>wait!!!.....
>
>You'll have to quit out of frustration & sell me all your high-
>end gear at 10 cents on the dollar?
>
>:)
I'll give you 11-1/2 cents. That cheap-ass Neil is no good, and
doesn't deserve your equipment.
pabThat's my point all along. I've been able to get that vinatge plugin sound
with native plugins. The Sonalkis really does impart color and mimics vicage
gear really well.. The waves SSL are very sweet and the word on the Waves
V series is that they a Killer!!..
I was never sold on the whole power PCI card thing ..even with superior plugings
such as the UADs.
Plus, UAD has not imprived their card DSP power which begs the question of
: Does the card really speed up the plugins or is it just a dongle?
UAD has been using the same DSP card for 5 years now!! What gives? The one
article I read inwhich the interviewer asked why there has not been a more
powerful DSP card, they (UAD) responded with the Lame(est) answer to amounted
to really no answer at all. Saying things like we researching it, it a detailed
process..LAME...Even worst, the PCI-e cards offers no real improvement over
the current dsp card..
Graham Duncan <graham@grahamduncan.com> wrote:
>Maybe they expect you to buy it right away? ;)
>
>I'm sort of stuck between buying 3 more UAD-1s and a Magma chassis, or
>going for the WAVES SSL + V Series. I hate having to buy an ilok to try
>them out, but if they're as good as some folks say, it would be nice to
>have that many instances and be more portable for working in different
>rooms.
>
>How much does a 7 or 13 space PCI Magma go for these days?
>
>Graham
>
>DJ wrote:
>> yes, i know. I'm trying to get the deom to work. It automatically expired.
>> NiceSo Deej, what's the LA3A give you that's different from the LA2A? I read
the stuff about faster response and all, but in terms of application and
gut response, what's the difference? From the blurb about it, I would guess
it's more like an 1176 if you put it on the highest ratio and a fast attack.
I've never worked with a real one myself.
Rod
"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>A 13 Space Magma can be had for around $450.00 - $500.00. If you're
>interfacing PCI, a 7 space Magma won't work for 4 UAD-1 cards without some
>mighty risky IRQ sharing. I wouldn't even go there. I'm speaking from some
>pretty extensive experience.
>
>I went ahead and bought the LA-3A because I had a voucher and they can
>always deauthorize me if I decide I don't want it....but I'll tell you
>what.....of all of the "vintage" UA processors, the LA-3A is the one I have
>the mos experience with and this plugin nails it. Forward and cleanly "in
>your face", just like the real deal. I'm very impressed.
>
>Deej
>
>
>"Graham Duncan" <graham@grahamduncan.com> wrote in message
>news:467b10e9$1@linux...
>> Maybe they expect you to buy it right away? ;)
>>
>> I'm sort of stuck between buying 3 more UAD-1s and a Magma chassis, or
>> going for the WAVES SSL + V Series. I hate having to buy an ilok to try
>> them out, but if they're as good as some folks say, it would be nice to
>> have that many instances and be more portable for working in different
>> rooms.
>>
>> How much does a 7 or 13 space PCI Magma go for these days?
>>
>> Graham
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>>> yes, i know. I'm trying to get the deom to work. It automatically
>>> expired. Nice
>
>I know this has been done, but...
If you haven't got this CD GET IT! Mine arrived this week after much procrastinating
and I just gave it a first listen and I've got to say, despite the rave reviews
it already received here, I have been blown away. It's really really *really*
good.
At track eleven I looked at the stereo, noted track eleven on the display
and thought "Oh no, it CAN'T be over!". Fortunately there were still three
tracks to go. Admittedly it's a 14 track disk running only 45 odd minutes,
and it probably sits nicely at that length, but the songs are all relatively
short. This however keeps the disk alive throughout.
New ideas are thrown up constantly, and it is always interesting and yet
always appealing. I have confidence it will survive many listens, and yet
is amazing from the first. Timing tricks, unexpected yet comfortable chord
changes, wonderful harmonies and performances, and from what I could tell
on the little boom box that scored the first play, an excellent production
and sound quality.
I won't go on and on, but I could. If you've been wondering about buying
this, get it. I can't wait to play it to my friends.
Cheers,
Kim.Yep, I said that 4 months ago here. hehe
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>Exactly. Cut off the free ride and the money and they'll be leaving. I'd
be
>just fine with paying a one time fee to scoot them out of the country, as
>long as records are kept and they don't get a 2nd ride out/funds spent are
>verifiable.
>
>AA
>
>
>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:467b3fb6@linux...
>> Deportation is not necessary. If we spent $100 mill putting Americans
who
>> hire illegals in jail, in short order there would be no jobs and the
>> illegals would have to go home (unless of course we put them all on
>> welfare).
>>
>> Aaron Allen wrote:
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote
in
>>> message news:467591fd@linux...
>>> >
>>> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of
>>> providing
>>> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
>>> >
>>> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
>>> >
>>> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by
the
>>> > low wages they are paid?
>>> >
>>> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are
>>> using.
>>> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
>>> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've
>>> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
>>> of states all the way to Cali.
>>> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
>>> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused
on
>>> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
>>> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when
>>> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
>>> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level
of
>>> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an
>>> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
>>> $29 billion.
>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>>> Washington Post found about the same thing
>>> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion
in
>>> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in
>>> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
>>> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>>> Here's a 2004 finding
>>> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>>> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>>> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>>>
>>>
>>> 27 July 2005
>>>
>>>
>>> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
>>> Year…Do They Take American Express??
>>>
>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>>>
>>> [Bryanna Bevens <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
>>> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New Study:
>>> Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year…Do They Take
>>> American Express??>] [Email This Article]
>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
>
>>> [Print This Article]
>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>
>>> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
>>> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
>>> in the U.S.
>>>
>>> Silly mortal…what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
>>> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be–he should have used
>>> graphs and flow charts…you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity
>>> for interpretation.
>>>
>>> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
>>> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP–whatever that’s supposed to be)
>>> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
>>> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
>>> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>>>
>>> Hmm…I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise…the
cost
>>> is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
>>> prohibitive.
>>>
>>> [extracted from the report linked below]
>>>
>>> “Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
>>> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
>>> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more. Spending
>>> $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the Department
>>> of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more than double
the
>>> annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8 billion).”
>>>
>>> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>>> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
>>> google warring?
>>> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
>>> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
>>> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
>>> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and
how
>>> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>>> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will
it
>>> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in goods/services
>>> but the big question lies in will the spending in the medical expenses
>>> and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how does our legal low
>>> end applicants play into that? How many of our legal jobless will
>>> suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves and family,
and
>>> better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, Mexicans or any other
>>> cultures. It's about responsibility to our house and ourselves and those
>>> around us. Perhaps others just see responsibility in a different way
than
>>> I do.
>>>
>>> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all
>>> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
>>> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
>>> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay
>>> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money pit
>>> volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for
it
>>> too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am
not
>>> a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my dudes/dudettes.
>>> I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty about
that
>>> spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't mind
>>> giving. But I want to give smart.
>>>
>>> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my
>>> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to stay
>>> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for themselves
>>> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
>>> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my family's
>>> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of
my
>>> house bank account?
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens.
We
>>> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
>>> >
>>>
>>> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just
have
>>> to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the last
>>> year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain tumor.
>>> She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro, first hand.
>>> I could relate some horror stories.
>>> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such
:)
>>>
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > -Jamie
>>> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>>>
>>> Cheers back atcha'
>>>
>>> AA
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Aaron Allen wrote:
>>> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>> wrote
>>> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>>> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like
>>> you
>>> >>> is:
>>> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>>> >>
>>> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate since
>>> you
>>> >> don't see what I meant.
>>> >>
>>> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator,
>>> then
>>> >> hold the
>>> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>>> >>> because
>>> >>> of govt mandates.
>>> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
the
>>> fed
>>> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth.
I'd
>>> >> approach it
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