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| Re: Paris on Vista? [message #78149 is a reply to message #78136] |
Wed, 10 January 2007 12:08   |
Chris Ludwig
Messages: 868
Registered: May 2006
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Senior Member |
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wrote:
>Neil some rooms are inherantly better than others because of
>their dimensions...this is physics at work. As for your
>recordings and mixing I'd also say that your years of
>experience have as much to do with the final result as do the
>acoustics of the room..probably more.
Thanks for the compliment, but think about it... if I couldn't
hear what I was doing, it wouldn't matter if I had one year of
of experience, or a thousand. I'm not saying: "work in a shitty
acoustic environment because it's fun when you've got more of a
challenge, mates!", I'm saying that you should let the room be
the room and treat it minimally in terms of absorption because:
1.) You're right what you say about physics, and based on that,
no amount of bass trapping or other treatment is going to
COMPLETELY overcome the ENTIRE structure surrounding the space
you're working in. No practical or realistic amount, anyway.
2.) Hence, there is no "perfect" environment.
(Again, if there was, every top-notch studio would have this
exact same "perfect" environment, yes?).
3.) The best mixing environment is one you're used to.
4.) The best recording environment is one you know how to make
work for instrument "a" or vocal "b".
5.) If you overtreat a room, you've got a room with no "life"
to it. This goes for recording rooms (70's drum sounds,
anyone?) AND mixing rooms (ever sit an anechoic chamber? I've
been in a near-anechoic one... your eardrums sound like they
"compress" when the door closes - that, or any degree OF that,
can't be good for mixing, can it?).
6.) Skip six... numerologically, it would bring bad karma to
this thread.
7.) You don't need near as many bass traps as Ethan Winer &
various mode calculating spreadsheets might suggest... most
of you HAVE bass traps already built in... walls that are
constructed of drywall with an air gap & then sheet insulation
behind them fastened to the other side of the interior wall...
hmmm....? Sound familiar? :) Kinda just like.... oh, I
dunno - A BASS TRAP???
8.) You probably DO need SOME trapping, though, and if you can
trap a little bit of bass & get rid of standing waves to the
point where they'd be even as ridiculously high as -30 or
-40db, you could probably get a decent mix in a shower stall -
assuming you've done more than a handful of mixes in said
shower stall.
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| Re: Paris on Vista? [message #78154 is a reply to message #78151] |
Wed, 10 January 2007 13:44 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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$1@linux, "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com>
wrote:
>
> I did miss that follow up, you're right. Didn't mean to be too harsh, but
> because of my day job I see the spectacular dedication and quality that
> Chinese
> and Indian programmers have. It's awe inspiring, to be honest. I apologize
> if my reponse was a bit harsh. Let's call it quits and be open to some really
> exciting coding talent that might come from unexpected places.
>
> TCB
>
> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>> Thad - you missed my follow up post where I retracted this comment, but
> that
>> was too late anyway.
>>
>> You are right, my joke wasn't funny, or even a joke - it was supposed to
> be
>> a take off on the whole C1 vs. U87 "debate" that rooted itself in the pro
>> audio community for several years, not a slight on the developers or the
>> Chinese in general. I apologize.
>>
>> There's nothing wrong with these plugins - they aren't superb, but the
>> developer is on the right track and I hope he keeps going strong with these,
>> eventually making money off of them, competing with the best of them. Other
>> than some issues with the limiters, they are better than most freeware
>> plugins.
>>
>> I tried all of them just to give them a chance - good ideas there. Yes,
> you
>> are right, and even the whole "Chinese mic" stereotype is ill-conceived
> and
>> unfair.
>>
>> I changed the subject to keep from propagating the poor analogy.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dedric
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/29/07 10:26 PM, in article 45bec905$1@linux, "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> So, they're from China. Therefore they're 'emulations of emulations?'
> Because
>>> that's not in the least bit, well, you know, kind of, uh, racial
>>> stereotyping?
>>> Right? Those Orientals, well, they're good at copying, but that's all.
> Right?
>>> All the good ideas come from here where, you know, Europeans live. Those
>>> other people just rip off our good ideas and make them cheaper.
>>>
>>> Dedric, you're a good guy, I know that from all of the posts I've seen
> from
>>> you here. But there are incredibly brilliant coders in China and India
> right
>>> now trying to make a living doing what they love. Some of them will do
> audio
>>> DSP. Dismissi
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| Re: Paris on Vista? [message #78169 is a reply to message #78149] |
Wed, 10 January 2007 15:13 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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onse in the room is fairly flat but there is a 5db dip
> between 100 and 500 and a 5 db bump between 8 and 12K at which point it
> starts a gentle roll off to 20K...there are a few spikes and dips across
> that and I will see if they are worth addressing in terms of $$$...afterall
> this is just a homebrew mixing room. This is not to say that I can't improve
> on the room it's just at this point in time it's not practical...but soon.
>
> On the downside I do have an anomaly...the sound coming from my left speaker
> is louder than the right...now I initially thought signal chain and tested
> every individual component in my monitoring chain from the MEC to the
> speakers including having all the components tested and everything is in
> proper working order so after much discussion with a few more knowledgeable
> people in the field I (we) have come to the conclusion that the difference
> in wall construction of the two exterior walls vs the interior walls, as
> well as the windows that are on my long wall are the main cause of the
> problem....the fix...well the easiest was to just adjust the volume on the
> amp...do some mixes and test them...so far so good but come spring I'm going
> to look at this and other areas (mentioned above) and see if a cost
> effective solution can be found.
>
> In conclusion I want to say that my room sounds very similar to a typical
> control room, at least the ones I've been in...it's fairly quiet but not
> unpleasing and the sound is very focused at the mixing position and this was
> what this whole project was about.
>
> I'd also like to say that after reviewing my expenses the total cost for the
> renovation (inc labour) , new speakers, new amp, speaker stands and the
> room's acoustic treatment came in at roughly $5000 and the cost for the
> treatment was roughly $500 although it should have been about $1000 as I got
> some deals on a few materials from friends.
>
> you may now return to your regularly scheduled programming
>
> Don
>
>
>
> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:45bed419$1@linux...
>
>>"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Neil some rooms are inherantly better than others because of
>>>their dimensions...this is physics at work. As for your
>>>recordings and mixing I'd also say that your years of
>>>experience have as much to do with the final result as do the
>>>acoustics of the room..probably more.
>>
>>Thanks for the compliment, but think about it... if I couldn't
>>hear what I was doing, it wouldn't matter if I had one year of
>>of experience, or a thousand. I'm not saying: "work in a shitty
>>acoustic environment because it's fun when you've got more of a
>>challenge, mates!", I'm saying that you should let the room be
>>the room and treat it minimally in terms of absorption because:
>>
>>
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| Re: Paris on Vista? [message #78172 is a reply to message #78169] |
Wed, 10 January 2007 16:05 |
Chris Ludwig
Messages: 868
Registered: May 2006
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Senior Member |
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r variations on that theme
:-)
Don
"EK Sound" <askme@nospam.com> wrote in message news:45bf6c35@linux...
> Hey Don,
>
> For the window, make a '703 insert for it. Simply cover the window when
> mixing. A large studio I worked at in Vancouver did this and it worked
> well.
>
> David.
>
> Don Nafe wrote:
>> Neil, I think most of what you've said rings true, especially your
>> comments in Dimitrios' second post above, very observant, although there
>> are a couple of things that I will "agree to disagree with you" about.
>>
>> For everyone else, I want to qualify this next diatribe by saying I am
>> no expert in the field but I did a lot of research, spoke personally to a
>> number of people who are a lot more knowledgeable than I am AND had the
>> room evaluated by two companies. And between me and the fence post I came
>> up with my basic room treatment plan.
>>
>> sorry it's a little long in the tooth but I kept adding things I felt
>> were relevant as want along and what you have below is pretty well the
>> whole shebang (and a fun read I hope)
>>
>>
>> Now after a few months of research, asking really dumb questions, posing
>> scenarios etc. I went ahead and bought my materials then went to town
>> and the very first step was to rip out the walls between two bedrooms to
>> make a room roughly 20' X 10' X 8' not exactly a "golden" room but a
>> heck of a lot better than the 10' X 8' room I had been mixing in...talk
>> about a friggin acoustic nightmare.
>>
>> I also purchased a Hafler P1500 power amp and a pair of Noteperfect Alpha
>> Pro's from Australia (sight unseen) after auditioning more monitors than
>> I care to remember. Everything from Mackie HR 824's through the JBL, KRK,
>> Genelec & Quested lines etc. to B&W 800 series and all I can say was that
>> process was an ear opening experience.
>>
>> For those who might be interested in the Alpha's (shameless plug here)
>> I can best describe them as B&W 805 book shelf speakers with the bottom
>> end of the 804 floor model...and at 1/2 the price of the 805's I can say
>> it was the scariest moment in this whole process but I wasn't
>> disappointed at all...quite surprised actually. Mike Kontor at
>> Noteperfect was dead on when he said the Alpha's will blow away the
>> competition at double the price.
>>
>> But I digress...get to the acoustic treatment....
>>
>> So after construction was complete and the room painted I went about
>> setting up my room
>>
>> My treatment went up in four steps
>>
>> 1) the bass traps in the corners - immediately the bottom end tightened
>> up and lost much of it's muddiness
>>
>> 2) the wall panels went up next and there was a marked improvement of the
>> overall tightness across most of the frequencies and the stereo image
>> became more focused...the last wall panel to go up was the one behind the
>> speakers and believe it or not I noticed an improvement in the stereo
>> imaging after it was up.
>>
>> 3) the ceiling panels went up last as I had left over batts I thought
>> what the hell can't hurt if I put them at the mirror reflection points on
>> the ceiling and as soon as they went up a bit more skewing or smearing of
>> the mid / upper mid frequencies was cleared up as a result of taming more
>> of the room reverb / reflectivity in the room
>>
>> 4) The last step was speaker placement...this was this most analytical of
>> the process. Using a specific room mode calculator (I can pass it along
>> to anyone who'd like it) and some graph plotting as well as talking to
>> the builder of my speakers I was able to determine the sweet spots for my
>> speakers AND the optimum listening position for my room...I then put
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| Re: Paris on Vista? [message #78173 is a reply to message #78172] |
Wed, 10 January 2007 16:11 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
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r />
>> together an adjustable stand set up that allowed me to place the speakers
>> in these sweet spots and very quickly determined one was the best for my
>> room. I then had sand filled speaker stands built and placed them into
>> the known sweet spot. Now here's a little side note - the sweet spot was
>> a cube roughly 12" square and by moving the speakers around in the sweet
>> spot you can actually hear differences in the stereo field, but I
>> digress.
>>
>> The very last step was to put shelving on the rear wall and fill it up
>> with all sorts of things to break up the sound hitting the rear wall. Did
>> I hear a noticeable difference...not really because things went up on it
>> over time and it's more a storage spot than a diffuser so I wasn't really
>> expecting much from it. I'm pretty sure it didn't hurt the sound any.
>>
>> Now about a month ago I spent three days clearing out the non studio
>> items in the room and began moving panels around as well as removing some
>> panels. During this process I was shooting my room using three different
>> ETF type programs and my results are pretty good for the expense and work
>> involved. One thing I did notice was when I took out the panels in the
>> back half of the room the sound at my mixing position started smearing
>> again. Once they went back things tightened up...so there's my vote for
>> treating the back half of the room.
>>
>> The not so final analysis:
>>
>> Overall the freq response in the room is fairly flat but there is a 5db
>> dip between 100 and 500 and a 5 db bump between 8 and 12K at which point
>> it starts a gentle roll off to 20K...there are a few spikes and dips
>> across that and I will see if they are worth addressing in terms of
>> $$$...afterall this is just a homebrew mixing room. This is not to say
>> that I can't improve on the room it's just at this point in time it's not
>> practical...but soon.
>>
>> On the downside I do have an anomaly...the sound coming from my left
>> speaker is louder than the right...now I initially thought signal chain
>> and tested every individual component in my monitoring chain from the MEC
>> to the speakers including having all the components tested and everything
>> is in proper working order so after much discussion with a few more
>> knowledgeable people in the field I (we) have come to the conclusion
>> that the difference in wall construction of the two exterior walls vs the
>> interior walls, as well as the windows that are on my long wall are the
>> main cause of the problem....the fix...well the easiest was to just
>> adjust the volume on the amp...do some mixes and test them...so far so
>> good but come spring I'm going to look at this and other areas (mentioned
>> above) and see if a cost effective solution can be found.
>>
>> In conclusion I want to say that my room sounds very similar to a typical
>> control room, at least the ones I've been in...it's fairly quiet but not
>> unpleasing and the sound is very focused at the mixing position and this
>> was what this whole project was about.
>>
>> I'd also like to say that after reviewing my expenses the total cost for
>> the renovation (inc labour) , new speakers, new amp, speaker stands and
>> the room's acoustic treatment came in at roughly $5000 and the cost for
>> the treatment was roughly $500 although it should have been about $1000
>> as I got some deals on a few materials from friends.
>>
>> you may now return to your regularly scheduled programming
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:45bed419$1@linux...
>>
>>>"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Neil some rooms are inherantly better than others because of
>>>>their dimensions...this is physics at work. As for your
>>>>recordings and mixing I'd also say that your years of
>>>>experience have as much to do with the final result as do the
>>>>acoustics of the room..probably more.
>>>
>>>Thanks for the compliment, but think about it... if I couldn't
>>>hear what I was doing, it wouldn't matter if I had one year of
>>>of experience, or a thousand. I'm not saying: "work in a shitty
>>>acoustic environment because it's fun when you've got more of a
>>>challenge, mates!", I'm saying that you should let the room be
>>>the room and treat it minimally in terms of absorption because:
>>>
>>
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| Re: Paris on Vista? [message #78196 is a reply to message #78169] |
Thu, 11 January 2007 13:28 |
Ed
Messages: 199
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
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>
>> Having said all of that, Drummagog is a God Send!! I use it on every Proejct.
>> I have 2 X 80 gig drives just for Drums from a vast array of Drum libs.
I
>> will be builinga Drum only VST computer for all these wonderfull drum
libs
>> and drum VSTi..
>>
>> Like, Drum-core.WOW!! Amazing sounds and playing. As well as hese guys
(Additive
>> Audio) are really on to something good as far virtual drum recording..
>> http://www.xlnaudio.com/index.php?page=products&p_page=a udio
>>
>>
>> But, back to the subject.. I'd like to trigger DKFH(CV) from Drumagog.
Trigerring
>> hose raw sounds requires too much work..
>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>From Rim at Drumagog:
>>> We are proud to announce the arrival of two exciting new products in
the
>> =
>>> Drumagog lineup: Drumagog BFD and Drumagog Platinum. These new versions
>> =
>>> add the ability to directly trigger Fxpansion's BFD. If you're not =
>>> familiar with BFD, it's an acoustic drum module plug-in with an amazing
>> =
>>> library of sounds (see www.fxpansion.com).
>>>
>>> These new Drumagog products enable instant access to BFD's samples from
>> =
>>> within the Drumagog screen, by directly triggering BFD. This is all
=
>>> done without MIDI or other complicated setups, and no additional latency
>> =
>>> is introduced. =20
>>>
>>> Note: A copy of BFD is required to use the new features.
>>>
>>> Two new products are available:
>>> Drumagog BFD is a simple version of Drumagog which is only designed to
=
>>> trigger BFD. It does not contain any internal sounds, or permit loading
>> =
>>> of external WAV, AIF or SDII files.
>>> Drumagog Platinum is a full-blown version of Drumagog Pro (with all the
>> =
>>> regular drumagog features), plus the ability to trigger BFD.
>>>
>>> If you own a copy of Drumagog Pro, you are eligible for a discounted
=
>>> upgrade to Drumagog Platinum. The upgrade price is $89. For ordering
=
>>> info, please visit the drumagog order page: www.drumagog.com/buy.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Drumagog BFD is very cool. It's great to be able to replace a kick that
>> =
>>> sounds like a cardboard box with a kick from one of the BFD kits and
=
>>> then blend the Eldorado Studio room into the track as well. It was =
>>> working very well for me before NAMM. I thought they would announce it
=
>>> then, but they weren't quite there.
>>>
>>> Anyway....there it is.
>>>
>>> :o)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>>> <HTML><HEAD>
>>> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>>> charset=3Diso-8859-1">
>>> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.5730.11" name=3DGENERATOR>
>>> <STYLE></STYLE>
>>> </HEAD>
>>> <BODY>
>>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From Rim at Drumagog:</FONT></DIV>
>>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>>> <DIV>
>>> <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>We are proud to announce the =
>>> arrival of two=20
>>> exciting new products in the Drumagog lineup: Drumagog BFD and Drumagog=20
>>> Platinum. These new versions add the ability to directly trigger =
>>> Fxpansion's=20
>>> BFD. If you're not familiar with BFD, it's an acoustic drum module =
>>> plug-in=20
>>> with an amazing library of sounds (see </STRONG></FONT><A=20
>>> href=3D"http://www.fxpansion.com/"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>>> size=3D2><STRONG>www.fxpansion.com</STRONG></FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial
>> =
>>> size=3D2><STRONG>).</STRONG></FONT></P>
>>> <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>These new Drumagog products =
>>> enable instant=20
>>> access to BFD's samples from within the Drumagog screen, =
>>> by directly=20
>>> triggering BFD. This is all done without MIDI or other =
>>> complicated=20
>>> setups, and no additional latency is introduced. =
>>> <BR><BR>Note: A copy=20
>>> of BFD is required to use the new features.</STRONG></FONT>&
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| Linux. Was: Paris on Vista? [message #78217 is a reply to message #78196] |
Thu, 11 January 2007 21:39 |
Doug Wellington
Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
|
Senior Member |
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|
>>>>> Turner Broadcasting System Inc., a unit of Time Warner Inc., said"
>>>>
>>>
>>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Has anybody tried this? Any thoughts?
>
>http://www.zeta-os.com/cms/custom/zeta/indexe.php"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Has anybody tried this? Any thoughts?
>
>http://www.zeta-os.com/cms/custom/zeta/indexe.php
Uh, the really really obvious one, why not use linux?
TCBPersonally, I'd be a little concerned about the source of the wind...
(especially with two adolescents in the house!!!)
:-)
JH
DJ wrote:
> the wind speaks to me. It doesn't matter from whence............
>
> "rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3vh4s2pdku3qeott2a8vlcfc6e8241mjm8@4ax.com...
>
>>you sure you're not just hearing a reflection of blowing your own
>>nose???
>>
>>On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:13:40 -0700, "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I've quit watching TV or reading the paper. I do, however listen for the
>>>sound of the drums echoing through the canyons at night and the bugling of
>>>the spirit elk. They tell me what I must do.
>>>
>>>;o)
>>>
>>>"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:k244s2tb3k1jg8qqfekim46dj0r2fidfut@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>>guess i'll have to get cable one of these days...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 07:25:52 -0600, "Mark McCurdy" <mark@mccurdy.net>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Yea, when I first saw one of the devices I thought "IT'S A LIGHT
>>>>>BRITE!".
>>>>>That being said it is now bei
http://www.parisfaqs.com
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