| RIP "Si" [message #101203] |
Thu, 20 November 2008 10:29  |
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ason why it's known as an "analog sounding" system. It's obvious if i compare with m audio ADDA for example. Those sounds really hard, i don't like at all.The Eq (EQ+4) is the one from Mike Audet's page. I just started using that on the Global Insert after talking to the mastering engineer on one of my last projects and noticing that was one area that he was bumping on about every song.
ALSO....not sure if this is anywhere or not but for those that use other platforms in conjunction with PARIS here is a copy of the PARIS EQ in VST I found and has always been well liked.
http://www.hometracked.com/2007/05/09/download-the-paris-eq- vst/
| TriSound Recording wrote on Thu, 11 March 2010 04:54 | | thesandbox1 wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 14:53 | also on the global mix...
use the EQ4+ and add a 2-3db boost at 20KHz (parametric 1=on) and also a 2-3 db boost with a hi-shelf (1=on) of around 11Khz.
A good stereo comp setting as well that BT used alot...
Thresh- -16.0
Ratio -1.25
Attack - .0032
Release - .034
Lookahead - .02
Output - 3.2
These two additions on the Global Mix bus I think will help a bit as well.
|
Ok, I just don't see anything on a global mix bus for EQ. I see them on the 16 input channels but not the mix buss or the master buss. Where are you guys finding it. I know I can add comp. on the bus and master.
Oh, yea bye the way my system is sounding much better now with it's wires in phase. Also there where channel 6 that had a strand of wire bridging pin 1 & 2. That's the reason for the poor high end sound also. Looks like someone rewired the harness it did not come that way (im sure).
Cheers,
Jeff
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| TriSound Recording wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 14:08 | Yep that would explain the whole story.
Is there a range for shooting A-dats? Maybe not
yet. They are still the stellar king to (my wife).
If we ever divorce she can take them and I will take
the paris. Seems only fair.
Cheers,
Jeff
|
I did a little hunting around for the source of the story I just relayed about SSC and it seems I misremembered some important details. In the version of the story I could find, it was a Lexicon 480L and the weapon was a .44  I just thinking about useing my real Effects (rack mounted reverbs,compressor, ect.) after cutting my main tracks.
1) Will Paris let you use all the input and outputs on the cards to do this and still play back your tracks too.
2) Is there any down side to doing this sort of thing (latency)?
3) Can you set it up for muti-card to get the same reverb on all Aux's?
4) If I instll more input/output cards can the system find them.
I was thinking if i did that maybe could keep the Effects/mixer or outborad gear hooked up at all times.
I would think that would work but just double ckecking with you all.
5) Seams with the latency with plut-in's this my be a good work around and sound better.
Pretty sure you guys have thought about this also and would know for sure.
Cheers,
JeffKerry,
I managed to hear the problem with Senderella too. I loaded up a session, solo'd the Senderella returns, while the sends were coming from a vocal and heard a sort of 'stutter' effect.
For me, setting EDSTransfer=8,16 or EDSTransfer=8,8 made the problem go away. I suspect that EDSTransfer=8,8 was better, but I wasn't really scientific in my testing. I did remove the EDSTransfer line, and the stuttering came back.
Next I will try using a smaller disk I/O size, as I had a smaller size when I first experimented with Senderella and didn't notice the problem. However, truth be told since my send source was a snare drum maybe it was there and I just didn't notice.
Oh, and I tried it with Senderella as a Paris VST, FXpansion wrapped, and in Chainer...its behaviour was the same with all three.
I'll try the disk I/O experiment tomorrow. I noticed that paris' meters are slower with 128 K I/O...especially in the native submixes.
Cheers
Kris
PS: I tried polarity inverting the channel with the Senderella send's, and while I didn't get a perfect null, it was only high frequencies that remained. I suspect there is a delay of a few samples (not sure if it's the EDS submix delay, or Senderella's delay...but I suspect the EDS submix, as it was submix 2 I was sending from).| Quote: | 1) Will Paris let you use all the input and outputs on the cards to do this and still play back your tracks too.
|
Yes.
| Quote: | 2) Is there any down side to doing this sort of thing (latency)?
|
No, not really. PARIS' latency is more or less identical to older Iz RADAR systems (according to those figures from Iz, PARIS actually appears to have less latency than the more modern RADARS). I'm trying to find the roundtrip latencies for ProTools HD at the moment - I suspect it's actually lower than that too. If you'd use external hardware with either of those systems (I would) then the miniscule latency of PARIS will be no issue. The only thing significantly faster than PARIS seems to be true analog.
| Quote: | 3) Can you set it up for muti-card to get the same reverb on all Aux's?
|
That's a little bit trickier, both with internal and external FX - PARIS thinks in terms of discrete 16 channel submixes. You can't patch or route across submixes without external hardware - eg you can't address the FX on Submix 1 from a track on Submix 2.
A good workaround to get the "aux outs" from different submixes into one external unit is to mult the various signals in to it and then bring the unit's returns back into Submix A. With a board at your disposal it shouldn't be hard to get some useful routings worked out.
| Quote: | 4) If I instll more input/output cards can the system find them. I was thinking if i did that maybe could keep the Effects/mixer or outboard gear hooked up at all times.
I would think that would work but just double ckecking with you all.
|
Yes.
| Quote: | 5) Seams with the latency with plut-in's this my be a good work around and sound better.
|
Good hardware is always going to be a lot of folks' first choice, but lots of plugins have no latency and some of them sound pretty darned good too. The better choice will depend on what you have - the internal effects in PARIS are essentially those of the Ensoniq DPPro.1. YES
2. No downside but there is the roundtrip latency going out to the outboard and back in. It is 60 samples or just over 1ms if using the analog i/o. SPIDF is only 1 sample ( http://www.kerrygalloway.com/WikiPARIS/wikka.php?wakka=Paris Latency ) Not much of a deal unless you are going to do parallel compression or such and then will get slight phasing if you don't allign the track... FADERWORKS!
3. This is the disappointing answer as no this is not possible as the cards do not cross. Not sure if the new work being tried with senderella and the native submixes will/can do this. ???? What I usually will try to do is put the tracks or mults of what I want to go outboard with on one card and do it that way either individually with the external inserts on the channel or the insert on the aux on that submix for use on more than one...pretty much like you normally would do but yes that aux is only good for the 16 channels on that card. The setup in the patchbay is pretty easy once you do it a couple of times. There is small section in the manual on how to make the connections. I am not at home but If I am remembering in my hear correctly drag either the insert effects or aux box for what ever card you are using down onto the patchbay and connect from your module i/o the channel that that you are coming out of the mec into the channel or aux you are using the effect for and then take that same channel out of the effect and back into whatever number i/o on the module you are using coming back into the mec. note...you can take the output of the module you are using and go in to as many channels you would like on the insert or aux boxes...use that effect on 3 inserts if you want only the processed signal coming back pre eq, fader, etc....
4. YES...the MEC should see the i/o once you install them and relaunch PARIS
5. And yes...good outboard still beats plugins with latency only again becoming an issue if doing parallel compression on like maybe drums or vox as you will get the slight phasing of the 60 samples.
Hope this helps.
Matt
www.sandboxproductions.com
www.eightdayslater.comhehehehe| thesandbox1 wrote on Thu, 11 March 2010 18:47 |
Not sure if the new work being tried with senderella and the native submixes will can do this. ????
|
It should...I haven't tried it to confirm, but I don't see anything in Senderella's source code that would prevent it from working across the various submixes (well, except virtual ones). I'll try tomorrow.
I am getting closer to being able to compile & build Senderella from the source, and once I get there I will change the level settings (currently in %) into dB. This will treat the biggest issue I have with the plug-in (it's sort of like having a linear pot where there should be a log pot...the sensitivity isn't right).
Cheers
Kris
Great Will have to give it a try.
You guys are great.
Cheers,
Jeff
| Quote: | For me, setting EDSTransfer=8,16 or EDSTransfer=8,8 made the problem go away. I suspect that EDSTransfer=8,8 was better, but I wasn't really scientific in my testing. I did remove the EDSTransfer line, and the stuttering came back.
Next I will try using a smaller disk I/O size, as I had a smaller size when I first experimented with Senderella and didn't notice the problem. However, truth be told since my send source was a snare drum maybe it was there and I just didn't notice.
Oh, and I tried it with Senderella as a Paris VST, FXpansion wrapped, and in Chainer...its behaviour was the same with all three.
I'll try the disk I/O experiment tomorrow. I noticed that paris' meters are slower with 128 K I/O...especially in the native submixes.
|
I really want to get the interactions between configuration settings mapped out. I'd love to make an interactive calculator that one could plug a desired outcome into and it would suggest optimal settings.
Dimitrios has some absolutely killer posts about these sort of issues, he did a ton of pioneering on this topic. Some of these may be useful:
Aux channels compression
Paris Workarounds Update
Did you see that Wormhole has gone open source? That's pretty exciting stuff.Yeah, I saw that about Wormhole....I tried it, but the latency was huge. I just couldn't make it work with a reasonable value.
Cheers
Kris| thesandbox1 wrote on Thu, 11 March 2010 18:49 | hehehehe
|
LOL - snap!Hiya Kerry
You sure can - in the patchbay, just route the audio input (A8iT-24 or ADI-O1, SPDIF, whatever) input directly to an ADAT output. Then it's hardwired to your external ADAT device. You don't even have to have PARIS record-enabled.
I've uploaded a screen-shot of an example of how to do this, using an A8iT-24 as the input and an ADI-O1 as the output. (Later, I tested the concept using the ADI-O1 as both the input and the output, and it works, but I neglected to take a screenshot).
You can use the same trick to send audio out of PARIS via SPDIF.
I used to run PARIS and Logic 5 on separate computers, using PARIS as the master while slaving Logic via MTC. All the audio was recorded into PARIS and the MIDI generated stuff from Logic came into PARIS via lightpipe. The Logic PC had an RME HDSP9652 card installed, and with my two ADAT cards plus SPDIF I was able to get 9 stereo busses back into PARIS for mixing. The MTC sync was a bit flaky at times but the audio sync was rock-solid.
When Logic 7 came about I decided to simplify my life and record audio into Logic, using PARIS as a front end ("latency, what latency ?"), kinda like an 02R or whatever, with multiple audio streams being sent via SPDIF and ADAT lightpipe.
Now that I have a reasonable audio interface for the Mac I tend to do all my recording and mixing inside Logic ("ah, I now understand this 'latency' of which you speak"), but I plan to experiment with using PARIS as a summing bus, especially after watching the BT DVD a few times (my favourite "new" DVD - thanks again Ted !).
Sorry for the ramble  .
Cheers,
Stewart.
Oh my, that *is* ingenious - right, of course, you can mult "outs" in PARIS, you just can't mult "ins".
I was overthinking it - puzzling it over in terms of pulling individual outs off of mixer channels, a way more complicated idea than just pulling them off the ADAT ins themselves.
Thanks much - I'll be making my new Patch Bay setup tonight!
- KerryWhat do you mean, "mult ins" ? You can send a single input to all 16 tracks within a submix I thought - is that what you mean ?
Stewart.
Right, maybe I implied that backwards - in the patchbay, you can mult any output into many inputs, but you can't feed multiple outputs into one single input.Aha (light bulb goes on)It took me a long time to identify the brain twister about the Patch Bay that causes some people I know to recoil from it in fear.
It's the way the terminology is used. For all connections between software objects in the Patch Bay - mixer to FX, for example - "outputs" go to "inputs" just like they do in the rest of the audio universe. Ditto for the connection between ADAT in and ADAT out you just illustrated - hardware being patched to hardware.
But the brain-twisting exception comes in when you're patching between hardware and software objects in the Patch Bay. That's where the universe turns upside down and you patch inputs to inputs (MEC MASTER INPUT 1 to MIXER CHANNEL 1 IN) and outputs to outputs (MONITOR OUT LEFT to MEC MASTER OUT 1). Try that with a guitar pedal.
It took me an embarrassingly long time to put my finger on exactly what was causing me such confusion. Once I figured out that simple transposition, life was far easier.Dimitrios, I don't know if you've been following the developments with AATranslator ($59), but as of last month it supports the import of PARIS OMFs and their conversion to a range of session formats, including ones readable by Cubase/Nuendo. My script provides a way to get things into PARIS, and now AATranslator gives us a way to get them out.
Workflow:
1) Export your session from PARIS as an OMF.
2) Boot AATranslator and select "OMF" file type in the import tab; navigate to your OMF.
3) Set your options and convert your OMF to the format you want (for Cubase or Nuendo, choose Steinberg Track Archive; Nuendo can also use that or AES31 ADL).
It's that easy. I've been using it regularly for a month now and it's been nothing short of perfect in its translations.it's all about "flow through"  ...or ball bearings or something.Hi,
after a fresh installation with the new Xp driver, the EDS effects didn't show up. Can someone help me to fix this? I remember this issue from the early PARIS days in the late 90s, but I can't remember what the resolution was.
Thanks,
Endre
P.S.:
I'm sorry if this topic has been covered already, but I'm too exhausted to search through the forum, since I've spent the last few days/nights with putting together my most complex PC to date:
12 cores in 2 CPUs,
8GB RAM,
UAD2 Quad Omni,
TC Powercore 6000,
RME Fireface 800
fully loaded VirtuaVia Expansion Chassis with 4 EDS-1000s
8 channel hardware RAID with a net 5.5 TB RAID50 storage capacity
Innovatek water cooling for the CPUs, RAM and all 10 HDDs
The weight of the machine is over 40 kg!
I think it's pretty unique for an audio PC, especially for PARIS, so I'll post some pics once I'll finish with everything.
Heya Endre; by not showing up, you mean you don't get a dropdown list of FX in your inserts when you click?
I think the solution for me was going back through Mike's driver install instructions, checking each step carefully - there was one I'd skimmed over (I think it was adding the path info).
- KerryIt is indeed. Hey, what are you doing in Italy anyway? Holidays? What part are you in?
Have you thought of dropping Dimitrios a message? There's a ferry from Brindisi down at the heel of Italy, isn't there? The dropdown menu has no EDS effect, it only shows External. I'll go back to the instructions and check all the steps again.anyone have paul's email addy?Can you Wiki that little patch bay anomaly Kerry
Could come in handy - I know it would for me| dnafe wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 03:39 | Can you Wiki that little patch bay anomaly Kerry
Could come in handy - I know it would for me
|
Honestly, I hesitated before harping on it. So many folks are so far beyond my level of understanding of the Patch Bay. But frankly the thing always intimidated me a bit, and I couldn't figure out why, I was always afraid of messing up a working configuration and not being able to get it back.
But I know for a fact there are others in exactly the same boat, and it's really just a matter of understanding a couple of simple tricks about how it thinks and then anyone can make custom spaghetti in seconds Hi There.
I just bought another EDS-card and want to use both, i understand that you need to connect them together whith wires.
Can someone please tell me how to do it and if someone have a photo that would be so much help.
Waiting for reply.
Pelle/SwedenRegister for the wiki page ( http://www.kerrygalloway.com/WikiPARIS/wikka.php?wakka=HomeP age)
And you can download the reference manual. The card interconnections are shown clearly there. I don't mean to be an RTFM sort of guy, but a proper drawing necessary. You'll end up crossing 2 of the ribbon cables together when it's done right.
For a 2 card setup IIRC you'll connect 3 ribbon cables (one is the clock signal from the master-card).
Cheers
Kris| Sound Dog wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 00:11 | but I plan to experiment with using PARIS as a summing bus, especially after watching the BT DVD a few times (my favourite "new" DVD - thanks again Ted !).
Sorry for the ramble .
Cheers,
Stewart.
|
Really glad to see it helping! Just curious if anyone has tried them and have any issues showed up.Ok, here we go again with the Mec-B. 
Seems for some reason, if you change which Mec is the master
then It will record fine. So the slave card will not show up
on the VU's in the mixer window & will not record at all.
I use a Master clock and have both Mec's synced to them.
This works fine they lock up good. So don't think it's a
clocking problems at all.
Now I know I added this second card later after I loaded my first Paris a few years ago. I was told I did not need to reload the software for the second card. YES/NO?
Also I heard if you have a older EDS 1000 it may not work.
YES/NO? This one has a Serial #060000317
I think I have one that is a EDS-X1000 I think that's what it's
called. But a newer one and I used that for the master card "A".
So I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I must turn to you guys for help on this one.
Cheers,
JeffHmm. First things first:
1) you shouldn't need to reload the software, the new resources should normally just show up.
2) all EDS1000 are the same as far as I know
3) an EDS1000x, as far as I know, is just an EDS1000 - the "X" meant that it came bundled with the ribbon cables that you must use to interconnect multiple EDS cards.
You have to be very careful when installing those ribbon cables, by the way, because in a rare bit of thoughtless engineering (most of the PARIS design is seriously well-engineered) the ribbon cable interconnects aren't "keyed" and don't even have sockets, so basically it's easy to either 1) install them backwards or 2) miss one row of pins so that only eight of the ten pins engage (naturally that means they're the wrong pins for the sockets too). Very worth re-checking.
Did you hit the Wiki yet? There are some tips about "MECs that won't pass audio". The Bugs/Troubleshooting page is the place to start, but you might be looking at this problem or a variant.
Yes I did look at the Wiki. The one about my problem the link will not work.
The other, the guy was getting VU's in his mixer.
Soooooooo, I guess I will take the computer apart again and
check the cable and look for any sign of a problem.
I did go by the Paris book in it. But hey Im human so need to recheck again.
I will let you know what I fine.
Buy Hey the other 16 channels work great and sound good to.
Now the cable is in phase again.
So things are looking up. Just need the other channels is all.
Thanks guys,
JeffI was having a good editing session with Paris using my new i7 machine, and things were going great until I started hearing clicking sounds in the tracks I was editing. I was working on tightening up a kick drum track by cutting out some of the snare leakage. So I had tons of crossfade handles on the go, which wasn't really a problem until I got to some that just made a clicking sound everytime the now line hit them. It didn't matter what the fade shape was set to, or how long of a fade I gave it...it just went 'click' as it passed the handle.
Is this just a quirk that can pop up after a long session, or is there some kind of workaround that I should be aware of? Has anyone else experienced this?
Kinda sucks because now 1 hour of editing has gone down the drain....
Cheers
KrisI've not seen that before. PARIS has always been remarkable for its "click free" editing for me, so there's got to be something up.
Couple of quick experiments you could try -
1) click the track number to select all segments on that track; drag them all into a jail cell; drag them back with the same tool (does this make PARIS regenerate a playlist? don't know).
2) Any native plugins on that track? If so try disabling them (DC offset possibly being introduced? Dunno, but turn off the PARIS EQ too).the only time I've had clicking problems is when I've had a Native Plugin installed on the offending track.
The solution is quite simple
1) finish your edits and render the track
2) If you want to continue editing - create another track of silence that's as long as the track you're editing and then copy the edited track on to the silent track, put the original edited track in a jail (just in case) and then move the newly created track back to your original track (channel)
The silent track will fill the spaces between the edits and keep the native plug active
2a) If there is a LARGE amount of time before the edited track begins playing OR the track has LARGE gaps between edits, i.e. a quiet bridge with no drums, just fill the those gaps with a silent track.
Make sense?I wonder if it's possible that this "clicking crossfade" thing is DC offset being introduced by PARIS' native plugin chain (or - since it's not consistent across different PARIS rigs and native plugin chains - just not filtering out plugin-introduced DC offsets properly).
Here's a couple of freeware DC offset filter plugs. Might be worth experimenting with putting one of these in different slots of your Native FX chain for that channel (starting with the last slot) and seeing if that fixes the clicking.
DC Killer! in the Tobybear utilbag
DC Offset by AnalogX
Whenever you get a session that has that behaviour, before you take any steps to fix anything manually (ie rendering) save a copy of the session along with the audio and zip it into an archive. That's lame behaviour and I want to see a solution for this one permanently nailed.Just wanted to give this a bump: I know "no news is good news", but if there's anyone running into any issues do let us know so we can nail them.Was just in Naples for about 30 hours...work. I will write from Germany tomorrow and change my flag again! 
| kerryg wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 00:10 | It is indeed. Hey, what are you doing in Italy anyway? Holidays? What part are you in?
Have you thought of dropping Dimitrios a message? There's a ferry from Brindisi down at the heel of Italy, isn't there?
|
It seems you need an invatation code to register, how do i get one ?
PelleHi Pelle - this link will give you the invite code.I tried to install one of the old skins (Black), and got real close. For some reason XN Resource editor wouldn't let me save the executable once I had made the changes.
I'll try again using a different install of XN.
Cheers
KrisYup, I tried it again using XN Resource Editor, and I get a 'System Error 19: media is write protected error'.
So, I gave up on XN, and tried this one out: http://www.heaventools.com/download-resource-editor.htm
So far so good. It's a pretty easy process to edit the exe...no bitmaps to delete, and the files save.
I haven't tried running the exe's though. We'll see how it goes!!!
Cheers
KRis
Hi Kris, I had never seen that problem with XN the issue we ran into with it was the crashes caused by replacing the MIXER bmp with it. You are right Resourcer is so much better. With the old black set I didn't include a MIXER bmp because of the problems with XN so the area above the auxes will be tan. Thnks for the response.Ok, Resource Editor worked!
I tried out the bronze skin that looks sort of like an MCI desk, and the black skin. Both worked well, with no crashes. So far, the black one is easier on my eyes, but I still like the look of the bronze.
Thanks for your work Jim!
Cheers
KrisGreat Kris. If you are using the old black and the bronze above the auxes annoys you just grab the MIXER bmp from black with flames and add it. No harm mixing and matching. Hi folks. Those of Mike's plugins with a ton of parameters - Big Reverb, DP4/DPPro Halls, Class A etc - can be tweaked to extreme coolness but building them up from a cold start during a session can be an involved process.
I've taken stabs at making presets, but I'm thinking that's likely not going to be the best contribution I can make from a finite pool of free time. I'm a musician/producer rather than an engineer myself, so I'm not sure how much value any presets I made would have to others anyway - certainly not to most pro engineers, who will have much better ideas than myself on "what's useful to have in the toolbox". The free time I can dedicate is probably more effectively spent pushing things forward in other ways - finishing the configuration database etc. Mike's working hard on driver-related stuff in the background, and I know we'd probably all agree that's the most effective use of his time - he's literally the only person alive who embodies both the highly specialized skills and the motivation needed to pull that off.
So I thought I'd start a thread for users to upload PPJs with any presets they feel like sharing with the community (not just for Mike's plugins either - if you have presets for other FX, that's useful too). I'll take anything that's contributed and compile it into organized and downloadable PPJs and serve them on the Wiki. The more quality ones we get, and the more they reinforce "real world" use and workflow, the more the value of those plugins increases.
Thanks in advance for any contributions! - K
PS: the upload process is simple. Zip (or stuff) your PPJ first. Then
1) click "reply"
2) click "Choose File", navigate to your PPJ and hit "OK"
3) click "Upload File" and wait while it uploads
4) when that's done, hit "Submit Reply"
black working here with no problems...thanks for those updates Jim.
...had to reply to something to see my flag change again Excellent resource idea Kerry.Glad they're working for you.Hi Hungaristan,
I just saw this thread. Send me an email if you are still having trouble.
All the best,
MikeHey Endre, how'd it work out? Did you find the issue?
- KHi folks - latency's a hot issue for many PARISians, so I put a little latency explainer up on the Wiki. If any folks with relevant expertise want to run their eye over it and make sure I'm not totally out to lunch on what I've written (particularly the math) I'd be grateful for any corrections.Wow, one can only dream about support like this, thank you guys:))
No, I didn't get lost, but had to proceed with the hardware installation and system configuration. Although it's gone pretty smoothly so far, the setup is really complex and I have to do everything twice (Xp + Win7), so it takes a long time.
I'm expecting to be able to get back to the PARIS issue tomorrow, I'll keep you posted.
EndreWell, personally I think it makes more sense to describe latency in terms of time, and distance (speed of sound), than MIDI ticks, but I guess some folks would appreciate the reference in a musical timing sense.
By my math, here's a sample delay chart (for 44.1 kHz). Remember that sound travels about 1 foot per millisecond, which can also give you an equivalent sonic reference point (e.g. would you worry about the timing of a track that you mic'd an extra 2 feet back from the performer?). Anyways, here's the chart (please note that these values rounded off to 2 decimal places):
#of samples | delay
1 | 22 micro seconds
64 | 1.45 ms
128 | 2.9 ms
256 | 5.8 ms
512 | 11.61 ms
1024 | 23.22 ms
2048 | 46.44 ms
4096 | 92.88 ms
Cheers
Krishttp://www.svn.net/artguy/paris.notes/2-6-03
"That's as good as it gets in my experience. Analog input to channel with compressor and EQ to
stereo bus to monitor out in 1.5ms at 44.1KHz is incredible. And I do think it matters. All
over the internet, I hear Native DAW owners yakking about "8ms latency is just the same as
being 8 feet from the speakers", etc. No, it's not. Not if you're wearing headphones as in the
majority of recording, certainly singing, not to mention drumming. Not that timing really
matters for drumming or anything.
I talk to pro drummers who absolutely DREAD going to project studios with "low latency" Native
rigs. No fun at all. Of course, the together types will monitor through a digital console
(still with more latency than Paris) and resolve the issue that way. But how much $$$ have you
saved and complexity have you gained by having to own a console just to monitor properly for
ODs?
The comb filter effect introduced into headphones by larger latencies is a big factor in the
way a singer feels about the sound of their own voice in the cans, IMO. Higher latencies create
enough lag between bone conduction and what's hitting the ears from the cue feed to create
issues for many singers, including pitch. Many variables here, but latency does not help
anything."
| drfrankencopter wrote on Mon, 15 March 2010 06:52 |
By my math, here's a sample delay chart (for 44.1 kHz). Remember that sound travels about 1 foot per millisecond, which can also give you an equivalent sonic reference point (e.g. would you worry about the timing of a track that you mic'd an extra 2 feet back from the performer?). Anyways, here's the chart (please note that these values rounded off to 2 decimal places):
|
Latency is such a hot-button issue - how much latency is "acceptable" is going to vary from player to player, and often style to style. Small amounts bug me during tracking.
I want to get "hard numbers" for the rountrip latency of ProTools HD in there - anyone got exact data?Hi Kerry -
Thanks for the great work as per usual. Two things:
1. I believe the UAD latency is specific to the host computer, and the new (vs 5 & up) UAD control panel displays that particular system's latency.
2. Q: I'm planning on going the Vertex route, but how is audio latency across submixes accounted for? That is plugins used on submix 1 resulting in a delay of the rest of the audio on that submix, but what about the audio on subix 2?
Or is Senderella used for this?
Ted
Hey Ted
I used faderworks on my last project across two cards and subgroups and I didn't notice any comb filtering or anything odd sounding for that matter.
Now if Senderella can cross submixes and you have a common FX across several tracks split between two submixes I would think there is a real possibility of hearing some odd latency generated artifacts.
thanks Don| dnafe wrote on Tue, 16 March 2010 10:08 |
Now if Senderella can cross submixes and you have a common FX across several tracks split between two submixes I would think there is a real possibility of hearing some odd latency generated artifacts.
|
This will require further testing, because it depends on where the source of the latency across submixes lies. If the latency originates from the way the editor window feeds tracks to the mixer, then there WILL be potential for latency artifacts on the Senderella sends, but if the latency is generated in the EDS mixer itself, then the Senderella sends will not be affected as they occur in the native plug-in chain before the EDS mixer.
I hope that makes sense.
It's something that's easy enough to check by a null test across 2 submixes.
Cheers
Kris
PS: For most aux type effects this latency would be no big deal...but for parallel compression it could be a deal breaker!
Yet another PS: I've managed to get the Senderella source code to compile under the VST 2.3 SDK. Unfortunately the source that I have is not the same as the most recent version, but the core components are all there. I'm now going through the process of documenting the code, and hope to begin modifying it to better suit Paris this week(March break). | drfrankencopter wrote on Tue, 16 March 2010 17:04 | | dnafe wrote on Tue, 16 March 2010 10:08 |
Now if Senderella can cross submixes and you have a common FX across several tracks split between two submixes I would think there is a real possibility of hearing some odd latency generated artifacts.
|
This will require further testing, because it depends on where the source of the latency across submixes lies. If the latency originates from the way the editor window feeds tracks to the mixer, then there WILL be potential for latency artifacts on the Senderella sends, but if the latency is generated in the EDS mixer itself, then the Senderella sends will not be affected as they occur in the native plug-in chain before the EDS mixer.
I hope that makes sense.
|
Makes perfect sense
Here's another cool one that showed up this morn.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370351 311267&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1123Does anyone here know what Paris uses as it's pan law?
Cheers
Kris<----- = Left and -----> = Right  Sorry couldn't resist. I have no idea what the law is..I remember that data being around, but it seems to have been lost over time. It should be easy enough to re-discover with a test tone though, so if you do I'll Wiki the result.Paris is -3dB for a center panned signal.
What I'm having a hard time establishing though is the relationship between the panning numbers and the amount of attenuation for a signal panned between hard left/right and center.
These aren't linear, and aren't strictly log either....looks like I'll need to come up with a bit of a curve fit to get something smooth.
Cheers
KrisHowdy -
Since I've just switched to a new quad core Intel i7 running Mike A's drivers on XP, I'm a bit lost when it comes to basic audio stuff on Windows. For instance, if I want to rip a tune from a CD for reference, so far I can only get it into Windows audio format, which most DAWs won't recognize. On a Mac, any conversion would be done in Peak with the batch processor when needed.
What are the standard windows formats? What do you guys use to get things into Paris and other apps easily? Is it easy to get audio into .wav format? Are most files in .wav format "Broadcast waves"? and therefore needing to be run through Stripwav before being usable in Paris?
Thanks
Ted
I use MP3 for all compressed audio - can't stand WMA, such a PITA getting "listeners" to do what I want on my OSX Mac. I use WAV for everything else. Many PC apps I've tried seem to write BWF by default, but Reaper can be set to write "PARIS-friendly" (ie non-BWF) WAV by default in preferences.
I use Reaper to do most of my "to PARIS" file prep now, it has a great batch processor so it's quick to translate a whole bunch at once.
Going the other way - getting audio *out* of PARIS - I use AATranslator to export OMFs of full sessions (they come out as WAV). It can now read PAFs and work with them directly on the edit screen, and since we now have the source code for the wrapper that allows that PAF reading, a little bit of coding time will see Reaper writing PAF as well. There are lots of very practical translation options shaping up, going either way.First of all I would like to thank everyone here for the help I have gotten here and all the other sites wiki etc. I am fairly new to this program as I have always been an analog guy but I must say the recordings I have gotten with Paris are exceptional far beyond the thin sound of protools. I recently went from windows 98 to dual core xp and bought the drivers but my problem is when I try to load adat to the adat card the window in paris has no effect on the operaton of the adat machine. When I use the c16 I get it to spot to the "go to" on the adat position but when I hit play and record paris starts to record but the adat goes back to "0". My config in the MEC is {2x 8in} {1 8out} {2x adat cards} and {1 more 8 in card}. I see that some people have said that the position of the adat card should be last in the MEC sequence, but on the treepad it says the adat card should be first. I didn't have any problems loading adat into one card in windows 98 but now I can't get any reaction. If anyone can shed a light in my tunnel of confusion I would deeply appreciate it. By the way I set up patchbays and everything the same way I did in windows 98. Thanks RonThanks KerryI finally managed to redo the installation and it's all fine now.
During my first attempt I think I replaced the PARIS_StudioControlLibrary.dll file before running parisxpeffects.exe and not after, as it's written in the intructions.I haven't figured out what the exact pan law is, but I have graphed it here:
http://web.ncf.ca/fk824/paris/paris_pan_law.jpg
It's certainly not linear...
Cheers
KrisNot sure how many C/C++ coders there are here, but I've posted the Senderella source here: http://web.ncf.ca/fk824/paris/senderella.cpp
I've marked up the source code to the best of my current understanding, but if there's any other Parisians that could have a look and possibly answer some of the questions I've raised in the comments, that would be great.
I've been PM'ing ModuLR (the original developer) regarding this code, but don't want to keep pestering him as he's moved on.
I'm looking to make this plug-in more Paris friendly, have the same pan law, support mono send to stereo receive, and maybe more.
Any help would be more than welcome...
Cheers
KrisI uninstalled Autotune 4 and now Paris wont start. Any suggestions?
Windows 98 Pentium 4Late reply to your post but I still amd going strong with Paris !!
2- EDS
2 - C16 Black Running 3.0
1 - MEC with 8 in cardsHey Gantt -
Nice to see you again! Congrats on your Grammy nomination.
Regards
Ted
Hey Phil! What's up? Why don't you email me - ganttmann at gmail dot com.
GanttHi, you could try deleting/moving your "default project file" (assuming you have one) from the Paris directory. This will cause Paris to start with a standard config/layout. Since this prob started when you un-installed autotune, it may be related to your default project file. Worth a shot.
Good luck, keep us posted.
Rob_AHi Kris, I don't know much about code but just wanted to show my support for the project. If you need to beta test anything, I have a 3 card, 2 Mec, 3 c16 sys.
Good luck
Rob_A This will be a perennially 'beta' project. I'm not going to sell the result, just give back to the paris community.
I've had some success with MS Visual studio's debugger mode, coupled with Reaper. I am making some headway on this project. I've also now figured out Paris' pan-law to within a percent or so.
My next step is to find a way to do remote debugging on my Paris rig (which doesn't have MS Visual studio installed on it). If I can do this, then I will also gain some further insight into how Paris' VST implementation works.
Cheers
Kris Ok guys,
I've got Paris' pan law implemented into the version of Senderella that I'm working on, and am just about work on changing the volume control to be in dB...and that brings me to my request for your opinions.
What volume range would you like to see in the senderella plug-in? For reference, Paris' auxes go from -20dB to +20dB. This seems like a little too much in the positive sense. Do users actually make use of that positive gain? I was thinking of going with a similar range, but maybe more like -30dB to +10dB. What do folks think about that? Do you want more aux range? Less? When Senderella is instantiated as a return, the volume control will act as an effect send master volume just like those controls in Paris.
Realize that there is a tradeoff between range and resolution to be negotiated here.
Another thing to think about...do you want saturation on the aux buss? Should there be headroom limits, or go with typical native behaviour of full floating point resolution?
Any opinions on desired aux behaviour would be great,
Cheers
Kris-30 to +10 seems more useful than +/-20, though I could live with less range (if I want to do more profound gain trimming I'll do it elsewhere).
Saturation? What kind of saturation are we talking about here and what would it sound like? My first instinct is that there are many other ways of generating that if desired, but I guess it'd depend.
Maybe the conceptual key is making it behave like the rest of PARIS, ie "forgiving".Hi Folks-
Currently I'm using Mike A's drivers running PARIS 3 on an i7 Quad. For all my VST plugs, I'm wrapping them with FXpansion VST-DX wrapper utility and accessing them from the insert on the channel strip using FF4 Chainer.
Is there any way of running VSTs in PARIS (windows xp) without wrapping them? If so, can I use wrapped and unwrapped plugs simultaneously?
My problem is that so far, Nebula 3 can't be wrapped. Nebula 3 Free wraps fine, which makes me think it's a permission thingy (they say on their site to test Nebula on your particular system using the free version first).
I am pursuing this with Acustica as well and on the Nebula forums, but thought I'd ask about any and all other options for PARIS here.
TedSure, you can use VST's directly in Paris. Just drop the *.dll file (probably Nebula.dll) into your Paris VST directory. Paris' VST interface is ugly, but can load VST's just fine.
I'm not sure what version of the VST SDK Paris supports though...
Oh, and yes, you can use wrapped and unwrapped plugins together....
Cheers
Kris| kerryg wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 15:18 |
Maybe the conceptual key is making it behave like the rest of PARIS, ie "forgiving".
|
EXACTLY... Paris lets you saturate in so many different places, I just though that since this version of Senderella is just for us, maybe we'd want to replicate that ability to saturate the aux sends as well. I'll only treat it as a low priority item, as bug fixing is the top order of business.
Cheers
Kris
Thanks Kris -
I don't know how to do this. The Nebula .dll was already in the VST folder with everything else. FFX4 Chainer was the only option and Disable Direct X was selected. When I moved the Nebula .dll into a new folder and pointed Paris to it, Paris still loaded up the other plugs but without the chainer...
Sorry to be a bit dense, but I'm new to the XP world...
TedHeya Ron - I don't have a solution myself, just thought I'd give your question a bump in case anyone else has any ideas.Ted,
Can you load nebula without the chainer, as a straight vst by pointing paris (you need to change the configuration file to do this) at the directory containing its dll ? Otherwise, if you want to use the chainer, you'd need to drop its *.dll file into the paris VST folder as well.
Cheers
Kris| drfrankencopter wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 23:57 | Ted,
Can you load nebula without the chainer, as a straight vst by pointing paris (you need to change the configuration file to do this) at the directory containing its dll ? Otherwise, if you want to use the chainer, you'd need to drop its *.dll file into the paris VST folder as well.
Cheers
Kris
|
That's the thing, the chainer .dll is not in the VST folder, but all the plugs in that folder are available through the chainer. (which is in a different folder) unless I am missing its name somehow.
No Nebula will not show up in the inserts even tho it's in the VST folder. Nebula free will not work unless it is wrapped, but Nebula commercial doesn't even show up.
hmmm
I must be missing some basic plugin path knowledge with XP. I had no problems like this with Mac OS9
Thanks again for your help.
Ted
| Ted Gerber wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 21:44 | hmmm... I must be missing some basic plugin path knowledge with XP. I had no problems like this with Mac OS9
|
It should be just as straightahead as it is on OS9 - you set the path and off it goes. There's probably some other problem here. Check that Nebula doesn't need something else installed too, a folder structure or another piece of itself that needs to be in there with the dll.
Also if you now (like myself) have more than one folder with VST plugins in it, double-check that it's not telling you it's pointed at one folder while still actually being pointed at another - PARIS on PC seems to have a hard time letting go of that path sometimes. You may need to go as far as closing PARIS, using a text editor to open your paris.cfg, manually deleting that file path (just that!), saving it, rebooting and resetting the file path from inside PARIS again, just to be sure.Yeah it sounds like it might be something like that. I wondered if there was a different protocol with PC, and that the VST path pointed to the folder with the wrapper and chainer in it, which then pointed to the VST folder itself.
I'll check it out later today.
Ted
Hi guys,
for the very few using Midi of Paris:
under "Midi Devices" my midi interface (a simple Motu PC Flyer) appears only as Midi Out and not as Midi In. (With other windows apps i have no problem, instead).
Any insight?
Thanks allHi,
sorry to disturb for a non-Paris issue;
maybe some Logic 5 user can help me.
Days ago i put some Vst plug-ins in various Logic's mixer "Audio instrument" channels to control their params by external midi keyboard(this is a tip not known by all folks..!),initially it all worked fine. Then something gone wrong and i found them un-available and disappeared from the list of available plug-ins, and i can't get them back.
I don't remember exactly what i did (was late night!), but i guess the trouble is caused either by:
1)switching monitoring audio from ASIO(Paris' interfaces as recording into Logic) to my pc souncard, and back.
2)using "non-universal" mode under "Audio hardware and settings"(i was working on a Vocoder plug-in path, too...)
Problem is, so far i can't understand exactly how to make the plugs be present and work again.
Thanks allHi,
i made a useful discover:
if you have the COMB FILTER plug-in available amongst the mixer channel list, the one made by Mike Audet(..or Chuck Duffy, don't remember), you can get excellent Early Reflections capable of making FAR RICHER sounding the Paris "Plate reverbs" or the "Drum Plate" made by Mike Audet, in general all Paris Reverbs who don't have adjustable Early Reflections inside, especially.
Furthermore you can set surgically eq's, pan, level, phase invert and reverb mix for each reflection, this helps to enhance carefully the frequencies of every instrument to be reverberd and makes you get a "modern" sounding reverb, too.
Here's how:
-put a "Comb Filter" plug on ANY mixer channel you desire (i had a great result by copyng a stereo file 4 times on other channels, by the Editor Window, thus using 8 mono comb filters).
-adjust their "Delay" and "Feedback" params as you like, then mute their channels and set a PRE-FADER aux send towards preferably Mike Audet's "Drum Plate", which has a stereo in bus (that's better in order to have panned reflections) as an Aux Return.
-set a different Aux PAN value for any "Comb"(TIP: please note that Paris sends Pan information EVEN in Pre-Fader mode, that's not obvious being strangely the value hidden in that mode)
-on the mixer channels eq every Comb filter as required(extreme settings welcome on midrange, with narrow-bands), then adjust their Send level; inverting the phase to some also dramatically change the overall sound of Reverb.
That's time consuming by when i heard the power of the newly-created reverb i had the impression to have a big Lexicon in the studio!!!
'Bye allIf I am reading your post correctly you say you have a total of 3 8in's in the MEC? Not sure if that would cause any issues or not since 16 inputs is the max for a MEC maybe that has something to do with it....worth a try to pull one out if that is the case.I moved all the modules yesterday to 3x "ins" 1x "out" and 2x "adat" in the mec and got the adats to sync but am still having problems with the adats returning to "0" when putting the c16 in record. Also now the second adat is not sounding in the 9-16 and I get a window saying there is no 2nd machine. I will try removing the 3rd "in" and see if that relieves the problem. Thanks for the help....RonHi,
is there someone using the MEC SMPTE module for synchronizing video or older machines to Paris?
What's its use for? What services to clients can do this unit?
Any examples to make a bit of extra-money by it?
Years ago i bought one on E-bay just to complete my Paris rig, i also have its manual, but i don't have any idea of that "alien" object.
Thanks allWhat are you using to generate your sync with the ADAT machine?Just to keep straight... but the PARIS VST forlder is a completely different folder than your regular VST folder under Steinberg or where ever that may be.| Ted Gerber wrote on Mon, 22 March 2010 03:51 | Yeah it sounds like it might be something like that. I wondered if there was a different protocol with PC, and that the VST path pointed to the folder with the wrapper and chainer in it, which then pointed to the VST folder itself.
I'll check it out later today.
Ted
|
Yes, sorry if I was unclear, you've got that right when using chainers. Wrappers I'm a bit less certain about. I'm looking forward to getting these sections of the wiki fleshed out more so I'll know more myself.
http://www.kerrygalloway.com/WikiPARIS/wikka.php?wakka=VstDx Paris
http://www.kerrygalloway.com/WikiPARIS/wikka.php?wakka=Nativ eFxSetup
http://www.kerrygalloway.com/WikiPARIS/wikka.php?wakka=VstDx WrappersChainersThat's odd - have you tried reinstalling the driver for the interface?I am using the EDS-ADI-01 expansion module. Like I said everything was good to go in Windows 98 but with XP I seem to be getting a miscommunication of some sort....Thanks RonIf you're using (as I'd guess) the 9-pin ADAT sync cable to sync them, are you getting the same results regardless of which ADAT card the cable is plugged into?
Fortunately, the ADAT.dll and the underlying drivers are stuff Mike has the source code for - meaning if there are issues I'd bet he can find them and fix them. To be clear, are you using the old ADAT.dll or the new one that Mike revised?Heya Andrea - what is it that disappeared? The objects in Logic's Environment? Or all your VST plugs in Logic? I'm not a Logic 5 PC user but I am a longterm Logic user, maybe we can figure this out if you can describe it in a bit more detail.
By the way - check out Reaper, it's *way* more up to date than Logic and has some really cool PARIS-related functionality.Mike did some work on the smpte.dll last year and fixed some of the issues in it. Check out this post.I am using the new drivers from Mike and I have tried using the other card and it is still the same scenario. I have put in a request to Mike for answers but he is a busy man. I hooked everything up according to the ADAT manual for Paris. Thanks RonHi,
Have I missed something here ??
What do you mean by "Paris" senderella working on ??
Does someone work on a senderella version upgrade ?
Regards,
DimitriosHi Dimitrios - yep, by permission of Senderella's developer, Kris is working on a version of Senderella more customized for PARIS use. First stop is getting the pan and gains in musically useful increments.
By the way - I was thinking of organizing your previous tutorials into the same sort of illustrated "step by step" tutorial shape as this for the Wiki, would that be OK with you?
Incidentally - Senderella isn't the only thing that's gone open source and is thus available for tweaking for PARIS-friendliness - so has Wormhole. So there's new and fun avenues to explore. We could use more coding eyes on all of this though, if there's folks out there that are interested.
- KerryHi Dimitrios,
It was your posts that inspired me to try Senderella, and sure enough it worked. But, there are little issues that bug me with it. So, I found a copy of the source code to an older version, and contacted the developer (ModuLR) and asked if he minded if I branched his code. ModuLR was more than happy to let me hack at his code, and here's what I'm working towards:
1) Send volume to be in dB instead of % (I never like working in % for audio)
2) Integrated pan knob that follows the Paris pan behaviour. I managed to get this working tonight (at least in Reaper....I haven't tested on my Paris rig yet). This means that it's no longer necessary to use 2 instances of senderella (set to different channels) per channel in order to get a panned signal.
3) Latency compensation. Here's my idea...on a return instance, there will be a slider that allows you to delay the direct pass-through path of the sends by the selected # of samples. This would let you insert say waves Ren-compressor on the return, and delay the sends to match its 64 sample latency.
4) Variable delay on each send instance...this could serve as a variable pre-delay for a reverb send. I've always wanted to have different pre-delays on different instruments in order to 'place' them in different spots in the reverb...and now it's possible.
5) Bug fixes...the source code is pretty messy in spots, and there is code in there that will never be executed. I understand the original was never really considered anything more than a hack.
If you've got some feature requests, let me know....
Cheers
KrisHeya Kris - is a wet/dry mix feasible?Yep -
Got it. VST path to Chainer folder which points to all the wrapped plugs in another folder.
So - regarding Nebula, Giancarlo - the mastermind - sent me a patch to install, and Nebula now wraps fine.
Also I reported a few months back that Altiverb inserted and saved into a project would cause Paris to crash on load. The current questions I've had about these plugin issues led me to place the Altiverb .dll into the VST folder (Chainer) directly as an unwrapped VST plugin, and now it works properly too.
Next up is installing Senderella +/or Faderworks to get routing and delay compensation happening.
Very cool
TedI'm about to build a new PC running win xp sp2 for Paris
i'm thinking of going with one of these mobos which one do u guys think i should go with?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813186 192
or
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182 151
both have 5 PCI slots ^_^
Last night I took the third "in" out of the MEC and loaded the modules 2x"in" 1x"out" and 2x "ADAT" to no avail. Same problem. Mike got with my tech and sent me a "debug view" that I will be loading tonight. He is also getting with my tech and are going to get to the root of this problem. I will keep you updated....RonLets have a huge thumbs up for Mike.
The dude is amazing always willing to go above and beyond
Thanks MikeYep totally agree!!
THuge ups to Mike for his hard work - and although I don't want to steal Mike's thunder, I know more cool stuff is under way.
Mad props to Kris as well for stepping up to the plate on Senderella too! Exciting times.
- KHi folks - I just downloaded the newest beta of AATranslator, and sure enough, there it was: PT5 export as an export choice. So now with AATranslator your PARIS sessions can be exported to ProTools (PT5 is read by later versions).
Why just PT5? After version 5, Digi started to encrypt the PT session format (one might surmise to prevent people from doing this exact thing). But PT5 covers the important stuff anyway - audio files (converted to WAV), track names, fades etc.
So if you were looking for a way to export your projects to ProTools, as of the next release (imminent) of AATranslator that'll be just one more of the many formats it supports. Have fun!Re: Wet/dry...
It might be possible, but I'm not sure how you think it would work from a user interface perspective. As it stands, wet dry is determined by the fader positions. You could get a true wet/dry implementation by using Paris 3.0 fader groups....that might be the best way to do it.
Cheers
KrisI posted that before I'd really grasped your latency compensation idea, which looks like a better way of achieving what I was thinking about - ways of making certain wet and dry signals remain sample locked...I found a great deal on a 13 PCI magma chasis
it is 5 volt
http://cgi.ebay.com/Magma-PCI-Expansion-Chassis-13-Slot_W0QQ itemZ120547982863QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash= item1c11383e0f#ht_601wt_1167
looks good correct?
I'd like to win this for $225. The guy has a few at least that is how it looked when I clicked on completed listing!Hi,
NICE !
One thing is that edstransfer should be 8,8 or 8,16 the latter working better with disk transfer on many audio tracks.
I suspect though that this edstransfer might overheat cards.
I had a couple burned out that might be of that cause but could not either...
I have also read from other posters that this eds transfer might overheat cards...
So better have plenty of ventilation to blow some good air right on the cards.
Senderella must be wrapped. Chainer was right so ffx4 as you say is ok too BUT ffx4 is DX so you have the 64 plugin limit !!
Chainer is vst so there is no 64 plugin limit there...
Regards,
Dimitrios
Update: I received the PCI to PCIe adapter and so far, the UAD-1 card seems happy.
Rob Ok, I learned a few things last night.
1) I managed to get VSTMonitor to work. This is a plug-in that is provided with the VST SDK. I probably shouldn't distribute it, but it will help the community learn more about the Paris VST configuration. So, here's the download from my site (This link will not be left active for more than a couple of weeks).
http://web.ncf.ca/fk824/paris/VSTMonitor.dll
I'd ask that folks who're interested in getting Senderella working well in Paris install VST monitor in their system (it can be easily un-installed later by deleting the dll file). What I'm interested in seeing is the block size that different paris configuration settings use. The way to look for this is to insert the VST monitor plug-in on a channel, click on the 'Display' button, and look for an entry that is like PROCESSREPLACING(2048). Here, 2048 is the block size that paris is calling the VST plug-in with.
I'm curious to see if the EDSTRANSFER setting has something to do with the VST blocksize or not, or perhaps it's affected by Disk I/O size. I'd do this all myself, but since there's a re-start of paris required for each setting change it's a long process. If other folks can just run VSTmonitor on their setups, and tell me what the blocksize is, then it'll be faster (and I won't need to test extreme values).
2) I installed my built version of senderella into the Paris VST path, and it while it certainly did something, it was not as promising as the results were in Reaper (which I was testing on a different machine too). I was not getting stereo returns, and the audio was 'stuttering'. My current suspicion is that this is a multi-core problem, as the Senderella source code puts no protection on the shared data between plug-in instances, and relies on the Host to determine the order of processing. So, you can conceivably run into a situation where if the load gets split between multiple cores, that the returns get processed before the sends, and the buffers are empty. I'll need to do more analysis to see if this is the case.
3) Paris VST does not call the 'process()' VST function, but rather calls 'processReplacing()'....I found this out by setting breakpoints in the code, and found that no breakpoints in the 'process()' function were ever executed. Getting breakpoints enabled in the code executing within paris was a bit of a breakthrough...but the data contained in the shared memory buffer (the data shared between Senderella instances), did not look like what I expected, nor did it look like what it did when I tested in Reaper. This behaviour may be different when wrapped...I'm not sure, and it will need to be tested.
4) My dx-vst wrapper expired...I bought FXpansion 3.0 eons ago, but lost the activation code. I understand it's free now, does anyone have the link?
Cheers
KrisHi,
I can't help with new mobo's.
all i can say is it works perfects with those two chipsets :
VIA KT400 (found on ASUS A7V8X board)
nvidia Nforce3 (found on a MSI neo platinium).
XP "standard" driver, with XP pro.
i second the good comments on mike's reverbs.
| kerryg wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 13:47 |
I use Reaper to do most of my "to PARIS" file prep now, it has a great batch processor so it's quick to translate a whole bunch at once.
|
Hi Kerry -
Is there a .paf patch I need to DL and add to Reaper program files in order to get the
PARIS functionality? .paf is not an output option in the Reaper batch file converter...
Ted
Hi Ted, I use Wavelab to rip to wav from cd/dvd, then stripwave to get rid of the header data, then into paris.
Rob_AIs that vdx33b?
if so email me at dnafe@rogers.comThanks Rob -
I am using the demo version of stripwav, and it worked for the first batch I needed, but
would not for the second. I'm not talking about the 10 second "buy" prompt. It said it could not output the files...
So I thought I'd try for something easier.
Ted
Learned a bit more about Paris.
Disk I/O, and EDSTRANSFER does not appear to affect the block size (buffer) sent to VST plugins. It appears that the plugin transfer block is fixed at 2048 samples.
Cheers
Kris
PS: My version of senderella also behaves completely wrong under Paris VST. I'll soon be checking it under a DX wrapper.| Ted Gerber wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 09:58 | Is there a .paf patch I need to DL and add to Reaper program files in order to get the
PARIS functionality? .paf is not an output option in the Reaper batch file converter...
|
Hey Ted... the current version of the Xenakios' libsndfile wrapper is available here; download it and drop it in (it goes in a subfolder in the Reaper program folder - can't remember which at the moment, I'm on family vacation right now). It doesn't write PAF yet, it just lets Reaper read it. For the time being you have to output audio from Reaper to PARIS as WAV (it's under Project settings; uncheck "write BWF header" or whatever they call it).
We have the source code, so the "write" part of the functionality will just be a matter of someone taking that ball and running with it. The "read" part took Xenakios a couple of hours, the "write" part's a bit more involved and will probably take between a day and a week's free time. I'd do it myself but I have zero coding skills, but I daresay someone will step up and tackle it before too long.Hi Jeff,
Assuming all of your hardware and connections are working and correct I'd suggest you try wiring your Mecs as follows. Master wordclock out to Mec A in. Mec A out to Mec B in. Termination can't hurt on Mec B. This doesn't make sense I know but worked for me with an ASUS P4 mobo. I am assuming you only have a two card system. If you have more than two cards make sure the last mec is attached to the last EDS card.
I hope one of these fixes solves the problem !
Good luck,
Tom
Hello Tom,
I'm using a master clock to clock all the paris systems.
So I'm coming out the master clock to each input on both Paris
system. I have no Termination as of yet.
So each EDS-1000 gets it's own input clock form the master.
I will be opening my computer soon to recheck the cables. Maybe
I got them wrong. The Pictures are not the best on this. So I could have the cards back word.
So like I was saying I can use ether card as a master but not hooked up as one system. So it has to be the clocking or the cables (i would think).
My on Vacation as of now so I will give it a shot when I return.
Cheers,
Jeff Albro
Tri-Sound Recording.
Missing-Link-Productions.Bump
just want to make sure this would work with Paris etc
Any particular cable I'd need?Learned a whole ton about Paris' native FX oddness this weekend.
1) Paris tells VST plugins that it is using a 1024 sample block size (comparable to an ASIO buffer size, it's the size of the data 'chunks' that Paris passes to the plug-ins). BUT, Paris actually sends 2048 as the number of samples to process. What's even more strange is that if you look at the actual samples that are sent to be processed, it's only the 1st 2000 that actually contain data, and the final 47 are all zeros
2) I ran into all sorts of problems running a send and return on the same submix. I was running the send on channel 1, and the return on channel 3/4 and I was getting stuttering sort of sounds. I fought with these sounds all weekend, and made no headway. But, out of desperation I tried moving the returns to a native submix, and VOILA....the problem rectified itself, and the return audio sounded just fine. My best guess is that there is an order of operations issue that needs to be worked out, and the moving the returns to the native submixes fixes it as they are processed last.
3) The plugin behaved very differently when wrapped by FXpansion versus under Paris' native VST host. The paris implementation was unpredictable at best.
Cheers
KrisI have tried the new skins and they seem to work fine. I especially like the plasma meters! I also modified the bronze skin to a "wet black" look by modifying the bitmap in Photoshop as for my setup a black color scheme seems to give me the best visibility. It was very straight forward and easy to do. Thanks!
I have also been toying around with the .dat file as in Kerry's thread and been getting good results with that as well...I'd love to see your results. Post a screen capture or email to
jim at jimdragoministries dot orgHi guys
I've got a 15 year old guitarist who's fairly decent for his age looking to buy his first real amp. He's got between $500 - $1000 to spend.
His musical tastes are quite varied but he likes that killer Who / AC-DC / Nickelbark power rhythm guitar sound.
Any suggestions
thanksVox AC 15 Custom Classic with the Alnico Blue speaker...
http://www.voxamps.com/us/customclassic/ac15cc/
TGI just got an Egnater Rebel 20 for the studio that seems to do a lot of things really well....has 2 sets of tubes (6v6's and EL84's) that can be blended as well. Also have a new Rebel 30 that would be in that price range as well. But the 20 will drive any 2x12 with no problem.
http://www.egnateramps.com/Products/Rebel/Rebel20Head.html
Hi guys, I wonder if anyone could help me with these errors. There is no info on them in the wiki as of yet. I am mixing a project on my 3 card system and as soon as I start using automation, I start getting these errors. This is my new i7 box with 1 UAD card.
agSetClip: can not nest agSetClip() in win32
Then I press ok and get the second one
***ASSERTION FAILED: aGDIWin.c:483 cp->theWindow!=NULL
Press ok on this one and Paris shuts down, I restart Paris and I'm good for another half hour or so. Sometimes it will crash again rite away.
There is mention of a "nest" in the first error, I wonder if this is related to Easter..?
Happy Easter Everyone.
Thanks
Rob_AHappy Easter to you too!
Thanks for the heads-up - as it happens that error message is one that I've seen within the last few months myself.
I can't recall why it cropped up, or what I did to beat it - but I know I don't get it any more. It was flushed into the light by something we did over the last year, so reducing variables will help us nail it.
If you're using a "skinned" PARIS app, eliminate that first by booting your original "unskinned" EXE instead. Then revert to a plain "vanilla" version of the PARIS.dat. If that doesn't clear things up we'll run it by Mike to check whether a bug was introduced somewhere in the revisions to the drivers (or alternately whether the new drivers now cause PARIS to give a new error message for an old bug).still version 2.2 on pc .... Ready to upgrade to 3.0 .. Where can I find 3.0 ? thx1. is it possible to fix bugs in v3.0 paris?
2. is it possible to use real time 2 adat cards per mec.. 2 mec with 2 adats each setup as converter to or out of LOGIC thru ray gun optical I/O card from RME on other computer!
3. is it possible to ask ID to share software free after 10 years of discontinued PARIS??? or to share software info so third party can work within software
.. few questions for start!!! 1) Nothing that's in the app itself without source code. There are still lots of possibilities in the drivers and DLLs. What are your top bugs you'd like to see addressed?
2) Yes, I do it every day. Two ADAT modules in one MEC, one and an 8i in the other, for a total of 24 optical and 8 analog i/o (plus eight more in the MEC master sections). Works great.
I'll let Mike chime in on the last point.Hi Kerry, so you have seen this error as well. Its a weird one, it only starts happening when I start using automation. I lay down automation across my 3 card mixs using 3 c16s, then go back and start editing fader moves via mouse, typical tweeks, and bam..sure as hell, it starts happening. I have noticed that if I reboot the computer rather than just rebooting Paris, I seem to be able to run longer. Paris is not skinned, I haven't ventured down that path YET but I must say, it looks pretty sweet.
Things I've tried so far with no luck:
-Pulling out 1 stick of Ram (ddr3 2 gig stick) and just running on one stick.
-Un-pluging my 3rd c16
-disable virtual desktop
I wonder if a bad VST plugin could do this?
Thanks
Robert
In writing up my variant of Senderella aimed at paris I have discovered a number of odd things about Paris' VST/DX implementation. They are summarized in the document I linked below.
http://web.ncf.ca/fk824/paris/Paris-VST-issues.pdf
Cheers
KrisI got Mike's OK to talk about this one in a bit more detail. We know what this is, and it's being caused by an issue inside the application itself where we can't get at it, so it's not fixable.
So of course Mike's gone ahead and come up with a fix nonetheless.
Background from my layman's perspective: there's always been a window of time in the app where a Windows screen re-draw can "collide" with PARIS automation data and get "smooshed", resulting in this "agSetClip" error. Even old single-CPU computers were theoretically vulnerable to it, there's always been a miniscule chance of getting this error whenever you used automation, no matter what kind of processor you used. But on single core CPUs the window of time in which it could happen was so miniscule and the chance of hitting it by chance sufficiently low that we don't seem to have any reports of it having been accidentally stumbled upon before.
Then we moved to multiple processors, and the chance of encountering this "window" increased - not just by a simple multiple of probability, but by an enormously greater factor. So now a heavy automation session has a better chance of triggering it than not, and you're actually the third user who's reported it now. In fact Mike can replicate it there at his place with a heavy automation session.
Mike can't *cure* this without the app's source code - so instead he's worked around it with a soon-to-be-released update of the PSCL that drops your chance of encountering it back down to the original numbers (ie very unlikely), as well as containing a number of other tweaks, enhancements and updates. It's essentially finished and ready to go now, and Mike's just figuring out the best way to roll this update out to existing users via email (a lot of peoples' ISPs filter out those sort of attachments even if zipped) - contact him directly in the mean time and he'll send you a copy.Wow.
I mean come on!
How cool is that?!?!?Thanks Kris. Am reading it shortly. Never an issue for mew prior to going XP...
Ted
Hi folks. Just thought I'd give this thread a bump - all contributions welcome.Once again Mike and Kerry save the day (or session)...! A big hooray to you both. Keep up the great work.
Rob_ALearned a bit more this morning.
Paris handles 24 bit files differently than 16 bit. I get different results with Senderella when using a 16 bit 'silence' track versus a 24 bit 'silence' track.
With a 24 bit silence track I get 960 samples of latency (21 ms) on the return with my variant of Senderella. But, the audio is not garbled at all. This delay is acceptable in some cases (long predelay reverbs and delays), but certainly no good for parallel processing.
I've got more experimenting to do. I'm starting to suspect that the only way to handle Paris' VST/DX implementation is to force a full block of delay on each senderella instance (which will require it to be inserted on every channel of a mix). This would be about 44ms of delay, and I'm not sure how folks would feel about how that would affect their automation line-up.
Cheers
KrisI can see some serious head scratching happening
Can we rally together to push ID to release the code? Would this take a petition, or some $, or both?
Maybe not make it open-source (I can see ID's resistance to that), but subject to a non-disclosure agreement, and available only to a few people who could ultimately tweak it up, and release new executables, or patches.
I really think that the VST implementation in Paris is broken, and could probably be fixed with a re-write of the Paris_fxVst.dll file. But, it's hopeless without the source.
I've emailed ID about obtaining the source, and further information regarding some the 'secret' config file parameters, but it's like talking to a wall and I've received no signs of life from their end.
Perhaps with a united effort we'd have more 'pull' with them.
Cheers
KrisHappy to help, Rob - that's all Mike though, I'm working hard just to translate what he told me into English
So did you get the new PSCL? Is it solving the situation for you?
- KAll I can say is WOW...!!! My 3 card Paris rig is an entirely new beast with this updated code from Mike. I mixed all afternoon, not one error where 2 days ago, I would have rebooted at least 10 times. Even the dreaded loop error didn't show up and I was pushing my luck, driving paris hard and it stayed rock solid....amazing work.
Paris + Mike = Kickass
Thanks again Mike and Kerry
Rob_A
 Didn't see a post about it in here, so here it goes. i just hope it's true. See the wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoniq
Timeline of major products
* 1985 - Ensoniq Mirage
* 1986 - Ensoniq ESQ-1
* 1986 - Ensoniq SDP-1 Sampled Digital Piano
* 1988 - Ensoniq SQ-80
* 1988 - Ensoniq EPS
* 1988 - Ensoniq VFX
* - Ensoniq SQ-1
* 1990 - Ensoniq EPS 16 Plus
* 1990 - Ensoniq SD-1
* - Ensoniq SQ-2
* - Ensoniq SQ-R
* 1992 - Ensoniq KS-32
* 1992 - Ensoniq ASR-10
* 1993 - Ensoniq TS 10
* 1993 - Ensoniq DP/4
* - Ensoniq DP/2
* 1996 - Ensoniq MR61
* 1996 - Ensoniq KT-76
* 1997 - Ensoniq ASR X
* 1997 - Ensoniq E Prime
* 1998 - Ensoniq Fizmo
* 1998 - Ensoniq ZR-76
* 1998 - Ensoniq ASR X Pro
* 1998 - Ensoniq PARIS Digital Audio Workstation
* 2002 - Ensoniq Halo (Creative Labs product using Ensoniq name)
* 2010- Ensoniq announces its relaunch plans for 2011[citation needed]
sweet
just what i needed
will be getting it as soon as i get a chance
thanks for the info KGFirst time I'd heard that rumour; no additional info seems to be available. Interestingly, the person who edited the Wiki article to add that info made their post from the IP of 198.95.32.195, which resolves to cli-pat-fe01.cli.creative.com.
let's see what the future brings. also the Ensoniq website no longer has any links on the images like it used to have
interesting things ahead, let's see what happensHi all. I have a two card/two MEC setup with an 8i and an ADAT card in Mec #1 and two ADAT cards in MEC #2. I'm using PARIS in conjunction with Reaper/RME9652 on the same computer via lightpipe and ADAT sync - works like a charm, the old days when computers lacked the processor power to handle both at the same time without glitches and staggers are finally gone (and this is on a several-year-old PC too).
My current project is a bit different to my normal workflow - it's being done entirely in Reaper since it's heavy on edits and virtual instruments. But I want to use PARIS as the "front end" for some additional acoustic tracks, recording them straight through PARIS to Reaper via lightpipe. In other words - routing the analog signals being sent to my 8i directly back out of one of the ADAT "out" channels and thus straight into the RME's ADAT in.
I'm kind of "blanking" on the routing - this can be done, right? How do I go about tackling it in the Patch Bay? I think you have a couple of options:
1) Use your Aux sends set to 'External' to get the channel input out to your Adat card.
2) Use the EDS inserts set to 'External'.
The only gottcha is that Paris is going to want a return of some sort before it lets you send the audio out. You might need to patch the returns to the ADAT input (which is physically not connected to anything)...which will force you to go with option (1) if you want to monitor from Paris. Actually, you might run into a 'streams' limit if you try to route too many tracks this way. I forget what the streams limit is, but I think it might be 24 per card, which would get you 8 analog ins, 8 adat outs, and 8 returns, but no monitor outs.
Either approach should work out...at least for 7 analogs or less (unless I'm wrong on the streams limit).
Cheers
KrisOk, I'm getting somewhere with Senderella now.
It turns out there is a trick to getting it to work with Paris...with only limited testing this is working for me:
(1) The 'silence tracks' (note, that they don't need to be silent, at least in my re-write of senderella) on the return need to be 24 bit (when used on EDS submixes)
(2) The transport 'now-line' must be started well inside all send/return objects. There are problems when object start boundaries are encountered. On some plugins this gives a 'click', on Senderella this introduces a latency on the return. I'm trying to fix this now that I've narrowed it down a bit.
(3) Send/return objects must be continuous (maybe crossfades will work...still needs investigation)
(4) It needs to be wrapped to DX...I suspect this is due to the way paris handles stereo VST's, but I may be wrong.
One of the downsides with (2) is that if you rewind to zero time on the now line (double press rewind button on the C16), you will pass the now line over the start handles for all objects, and Senderella will go out of sync.
And, another discovery:
After getting senderella to work with zero latency (got a perfect null with phase reversed send/return on a single EDS submix), I tried putting the send on EDS submix 1, and the return on EDS submix 2. I could not get a null, but got close (within a few samples) I haven't counted the exact sample delay, but I suspect it's the 9 (is it 9?) sample submix 2+ delay that was identified a few years ago. This would seem to suggest that the delay comes from the EDS mixer itself, and not from the way the tracks are spooled up in the editor window.
I've got a bit more investigation to do, and will continue to report my findings in this 'blog' style.
Cheers
KrisThanks Kris -
Having the chance to send out to VST/DX on a virtual submix will be great. I'll wait until you feel really confidant with it before I wade in...
Ted
Well, there you go. I've been so irritated by the conversion situation, ( I mix 30% of my projects in HD3) , using ADATs etc, that I bought a 001 BloTools (on ebay for $120.) so I could light pipe all my PAF stuff in real time to ProTools, and ease up the conversion process. I spoke with Sweetwater Sound today, and the dude on the other end had NEVER heard of Paris,(what?) (didn't they used to sell it?) and was really pushing an HD3 or 003. RIGHT! Not gonna happen, I live in Zion Park (nearly) where it's tourists, and BROKE natives! Well, I tire of defending my loyalty to Paris, (man you can push that low stuff! 2in tapeish) but will press forward, and congrats to the Grammy Nom dudes! John HoustonHello, I am wanting to change my op system to XP from Windows 98.
I am not a 'computer guy' but, close. Have built computers, installed systems. But, always running into things I can't get done correctly.
I need 'Changing to XP for dummies' kind of help. any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
I have the black viper web site saved. their suggestions are difficult for me to understand.
thanks,
Stephen
stevenashville@gmail.comI have been out of the recording business for quite some time. The XP/98 debate was going on back in the day. Now, still seems to be going on today.
I have a fairly quick, newer computer, with over 2.6 gig processor, a couple gigs of ram.
I use 2 hard drives. A system drive that uses Windows to run Paris (only) and a file drive that keeps all my music files.
I only use this computer for Paris.
It never sees the Internet and appears to work fine.
I copy data from Paris to a disk and import it to my more modern XP computer to master with an assortment of 24 bit tools, Wave Lab, Waves and others, bla bla bla.
So, is there really any reason to change this process, go through the hassle of tweaking XP to make it work in my Paris computer? Or, if it ain't broke, should I fix it?
The only other question is, are there any updates for Paris that have happened over the last 3 or 4 years?
Or, any updates for windows 98?
For that matter, are there any issues that should be addressed?
Thanks for any news on this!
Also, would appreciate any feed back on the new web site I am building
Stephen
Stephens email: StephenNashville@gmail.com
Web site: guitarstudio.org
All feedback is welcome
StephenSeems perhaps a bit unfinished at this point...
formerly Nashville Matt
www.sandboxproductions.com
www.eightdayslater.comYep, very unfinished. Was wanting to have more done. But, other stuff got in the way
StephenHi,
Senderella can work 0 latency on EDS submixes (Not native ones) if you use the EdsTransfer 8,8 or 8,16
DimitriosHi,
I have 5 eds cards NO magma or other chassis expansion.
Just use a PB4 ausu motherboard that has 6 pci slots.
Use to have four mecs attached each with two adat cards all working at that time for quite so long until I sold adta cards and most of mecs.
I use one now with one adat card and two 24 input cards...
Regards,
DimitriosDimitrios,
I have set my EDSTransfer to 8,8 and my results with Senderella are:
1) It will not work as a pure VST in Paris. It needs to be wrapped.
2) The dummy tracks feeding the returns need to be 24 bit (when the sends are 24 bit. Further checking is required when the sends are 16 bit.
3) The 'now line' must not cross any non-continuous object start handles on the sends, or you'll get a nearly random (but < 100 ms) delay for each start handle encountered. The best way to avoid this would be to past all your edits on top of another silence track.
4) Sending a track from EDSsubmix 1 (channel 1) to channel 16 on the same submix resulted in no latency (except for a 100 ms block where the return is briefly muted). Sending from EDSsubmix 1 to EDSsubmix 2 resulted in some latency. If you use Faderworks, you probably wouldn't see this latency.
Cheers
Kris
Hi,
If your 98 is stable enough, the only signifiant factor for a migration is compatibility with new hardware or software that you want to run on your paris PC, like new fancy VST plugin, or dual CPU support.
From my experience, XP do well with paris, it's no triky at all, nothing special : fresh install, (not a migration), no tweeking, just set up following the XP or audet 's drivers instruction, and it's ready to make music IF paris is compatible with your PC hardware, wich i suppose it is.
You can find 3.0 @ Intelligent Devices. You'll have to pay $300 for it !?##^#&#^
Under Products>Legacy Products.
Interesting to note that they have links both to this site (old news) and a link to Paris OMF developments referenced in a Reaper thread.
OR - you can buy a system from someone else, and 3.0 would likely be bundled with it.
Ted
Ok, now I'm really getting somewhere...
Found out some more nuggets about Senderella and Paris:
Regarding 16 bit and 24 bit files:
1) 16 bit source (send) tracks will work fine with 16 bit 'silence' tracks for the return.
2) 16 bit source tracks will work fine with 24 bit 'silence' tracks for the return.
3) 24 bit source tracks will work fine with 24 bit 'silence' tracks for the return.
4) 24 bit source tracks will work fine with 16 bit 'silence' tracks IF the returns are on a native submix.
5) 24 bit source tracks will not work right with 16 bit 'silence' tracks if the returns are on an EDS submix
Regarding object start handles, crossfades, etc:
1) 'return to zero time' can be easily re-set using the locator. Doing this will allow your double rewind press to bring the 'now line' to a position other than the far left extent of the editor window playing field.
2) Crossfades in a send track will result in timing errors on the return...even if the crossfade is full length, and seemingly continuous. For that matter the Paris 'tape' tool refused to see the splices as continuous either...
3) Track #1 is the most picky about the start handles @ time zero on the editor playing field.
Latencies with Senderella:
1) Send on EDS submix 1 to return on EDS submix 2 = 14 samples
2) Send on EDS submix 1 to return on EDS submix 3 = 12 samples (seems odd....)
3) Send on EDS submix 1 to return on native submix 4 = 12 samples
4) Send on EDS submix 2 to return on EDS submix 3 = 2 samples
5) Send on EDS submix 2 to return on native submix 4 = 2 samples
Regarding the FXPansion VST/DX wrapper:
1) It will not save your parameter settings, unless you define at least one program. This would have only affected early releases of Senderella.
Regarding Paris, DX & object edits:
1) Paris uses a block size of 2000 for DX plugins.
2) When paris encounters an edited object (or more correctly an end handle) it will send a smaller block to the plugin. (This is not abnormal)
3) When paris encounters a new start handle, it will always a block of 2000 samples, even if this sample block technically doesn't line up on a 2000 block chunk with respect to the other tracks (This IS abnormal). Because of this, the audio sent to the VST/DX chain on that track is no longer in sync with other tracks that have no edits. The result ends up being okay in the Paris mixer because Paris keeps track of the timing offsets, and corrects them after the VST/DX chain is processed. That's fine for normal DX/VST plugins, which don't communicate to one another, but it wrecks havoc on Senderella. I suspect this is also the reason why stereo DX/VST plugins don't like some edits.
4) Paris does not send sample position, or any other useful timing information to the VST/DX chain. It only reports tempo, time sig, and sample rate.
Unfortunately, because of 3 & 4 above, there are some serious limitations to Senderella in Paris that cannot be addressed. I've tried real hard, but can see no way to handle object start handles/edits because of the way Paris handles them. BUT, at least it can be made to work in a mixdown situation, once all edits are rendered to a continuous file.
I'm moving on in development, and trying to build up the feature set that I want, including latency compensation, and available delay in the send path (for source dependent pre-delay on reverbs).
Cheers
Kris| drfrankencopter wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 14:51 | Ok, now I'm really getting somewhere...
Found out some more nuggets about Senderella and Paris:
Unfortunately, because of 3 & 4 above, there are some serious limitations to Senderella in Paris that cannot be addressed. I've tried real hard, but can see no way to handle object start handles/edits because of the way Paris handles them. BUT, at least it can be made to work in a mixdown situation, once all edits are re
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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