Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Re: OT:movie on 911-youve got to see this
| Re: OT:movie on 911-youve got to see this [message #71535] |
Mon, 21 August 2006 07:25  |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>
>
> >for distortion of any kind. And while I can't really tell you how or
=
>why
> I=20
> >decided that these were my best option, they remain just that. Next
=
>to
> a=20
> >good FOH eng, these are the most significant components in my signal
=
>path.
>
> >I've never looked back. Maybe because my 1x12's were custom built =
>and based
>
> >on an old Pacific (Michael Forest) design and employ high grade, slow
=
>
> >growth, light-but-dense Norwegien fir. I use just one primarily but
=
>when
>
> >the stage is big enough and the players be fine, I switch the old =
>50/50
> to=20
> >stereo and run the twin cabs about 20' apart, 10' away, pointing =
>back, up
>
> >and and slightly in and jump feet first into what one of my gig =
>compadres
>
> >calls "one big luxurious stereo sonic bathtub."
> >
> >W.
> >
> >"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote in message=20
> >news:450a08d7@linux...
> >> I'm looking at picking up a 4x12 to club gig with. Anybody got =
>experience
>
> >> to share with me about these models??
> >> Is there 'really' a $1000 dollars worth of difference in tone from
=
>bottom
>
> >> to top with them, is it mechanics (like say, casters and handles)?
> >> I will be driving it with a 60wpc tube amp with a tube preamp front
=
>end.
>
> >> I want the elusive 'brown sound' distortion and super clear =
>cleans...
>
> >> which the amp/preamp combo is certainly capable of giving me. It's
=
>the
>
> >> cabs that suck on my current gear (2 unmatched 2x12's) - I wish to
=
>move
> to=20
> >> one stereo matched cab, and I'm not afraid to rewire it if that =
>matters.
> >> Many thanks in advance!
> >>
> >>
> >> https://www.zzounds.com/item--MSHMG412A
> >> $450.00 $279.95
> >> Angled-front version.
> >> Power: 120 watts
> >> Impedance: 8 ohms
> >> Speakers: 4 x 12 in. Marshall/Celestion custom-designed speakers =
>(30W
>
> >> each)
> >> Dimensions (W x H x D): 26.4 x 26.4 x 14.0 in.
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.zzounds.com/item--MSH1960A
> >> $1,150.00 $649.95
> >> Angled-front version.
> >> Black grille cloth
> >> White piping
> >> Black elephant grain vinyl
> >> Speaker: 4 x 12 in. G12T-75
> >> Power: 300 watt
> >> Impedance: 4 or 16 ohms mono/8 ohms stereo
> >> Dimensions: 760 x 830 x 360mm
> >> Weight: 36.4 kg
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.zzounds.com/item--MSH1960AX
> >> $1,500.00 $1,049.00
> >> Angled front
> >> Vintage-circa early 70's
> >> Checkered cloth
> >> White piping
> >> Medium size white logo
> >> Black Levant vinyl
> >> Gold beading on Cab
> >> Speakers: 4 Celestion G12 M-25w SPKR-00016
> >> Power: 100 watts
> >> Impedance: 16 ohm
> >> Dimensions: 760 x 830 x 360 mm
> >> Weight: 37.7 kg
> >> Cover: COVR-00022 optional
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.zzounds.com/item--MSH1960AHW
> >> $1,800.00 $1,200.00
> >> Loaded with Celestion G12H-30 re-issue speakers.
> >> To complement the 1959HW's visual and sonic majesty, Marshall =
>offers the
>
> >> 1960AHW (angled) 4x12 cabinet. It boasts basket weave fret cloth, =
>metal
>
> >> handles, "100" logos, and is loaded with Celestion's =
>highly-acclaimed
>
> >> G12H-30 re-issue speakers.
> >>
> >>
> >>=20
> >
> >
>
>
>
>I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
>http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>DC,</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I never thought of that?!!! It =
>makes sense=20
>though.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE=20
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV>"DC" <<A =
>href=3D"mailto:dc@spammersinLA.org">dc@spammersinLA.org</A>>=20
> wrote in message <A=20
> href=3D"news:45104da6$1@linux">news:45104da6$1@linux</A>...</DIV><BR>I
=
>had a=20
> Mesa MKII-C with a seperate vented box with an =
>EVM12-L.<BR><BR>Yeoww! =20
> That thing was *loud*, and clean too. Good =
>tone.<BR><BR>Most=20
> players don't know that a 1x12 cuts through a lot better<BR>than a =
>4x12, all=20
> else being equal. If you just want a clear, =
>powerful<BR>lead tone,=20
> a single speaker just rules. If you want a huge sound, =
>and<BR>can=20
> live with a bit less clarity, then a 4x12 is the=20
> ticket.<BR><BR>DC<BR><BR>"Dubya Mark Wilson" <<A=20
> =
>href=3D"mailto:mark.xspam@avidrecording.com">mark.xspam@avidrecording.com=
></A>>=20
> wrote:<BR>>I know this will probably be met with a lot of =
>"you-oughta=20
> try's" but I<BR>have <BR>>been using 1x12's exclusively for 21 =
>years. =20
> Morever, loaded with EV 12-L<BR><BR>>Series II spkrs. Rated @ =
>300w,=20
> most players would run, not walk, from these<BR><BR>>for distortion =
>of any=20
> kind. And while I can't really tell you how or why<BR>I =
><BR>>decided=20
> that these were my best option, they remain just that. Next =
>to<BR>a=20
> <BR>>good FOH eng, these are the most significant components in my =
>signal=20
> path.<BR><BR>>I've never looked back. Maybe because my 1x12's =
>were=20
> custom built and based<BR><BR>>on an old Pacific (Michael Forest) =
>design=20
> and employ high grade, slow <BR>>growth, light-but-dense Norwegien=20
> fir. I use just one primarily but when<BR><BR>>the stage is =
>big=20
> enough and the players be fine, I switch the old 50/50<BR>to =
><BR>>stereo=20
> and run the twin cabs about 20' apart, 10' away, pointing back,=20
> up<BR><BR>>and and slightly in and jump feet first into what one of =
>my gig=20
> compadres<BR><BR>>calls "one big luxurious stereo sonic=20
> bathtub."<BR>><BR>>W.<BR>><BR>>"Aaron Allen" <<A=20
> =
>href=3D"mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude">know-spam@not_here.dude</A>> =
>wrote in=20
> message <BR>>news:450a08d7@linux...<BR>>> I'm looking at =
>picking up a=20
> 4x12 to club gig with. Anybody got experience<BR><BR>>> to share =
>with me=20
> about these models??<BR>>> Is there 'really' a $1000 dollars =
>worth of=20
> difference in tone from bottom<BR><BR>>> to top with them, is it =
>
> mechanics (like say, casters and handles)?<BR>>> I will be =
>driving it=20
> with a 60wpc tube amp with a tube preamp front end.<BR><BR>>> I =
>want the=20
> elusive 'brown sound' distortion and super clear =
>cleans...<BR><BR>>>=20
> which the amp/preamp combo is certainly capable of giving me. It's=20
> the<BR><BR>>> cabs that suck on my current gear (2 unmatched =
>2x12's) - I=20
> wish to move<BR>to <BR>>> one stereo matched cab, and I'm not =
>afraid to=20
> rewire it if that matters.<BR>>> Many thanks in=20
> advance!<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> <A=20
> =
>href=3D"https://www.zzounds.com/item--MSHMG412A">https://www.zzounds.com/=
>item--MSHMG412A</A><BR>>>=20
> $450.00 $279.95<BR>>> Angled-front=20
> version.<BR>>> Power: 120 watts<BR>>> Impedance: 8=20
> ohms<BR>>> Speakers: 4 x 12 in. Marshall/Celestion =
>custom-designed=20
> speakers (30W<BR><BR>>> each)<BR>>> Dimensions (W x H x =
>D): 26.4 x=20
> 26.4 x 14.0 in.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> <A=20
> =
>href=3D"http://www.zzounds.com/item--MSH1960A">http://www.zzounds.com/ite=
>m--MSH1960A</A><BR>>>=20
> $1,150.00 $649.95<BR>>> Angled-front=20
> version.<BR>>> Black grille cloth<BR>>> White =
>piping<BR>>>=20
> Black elephant grain vinyl<BR>>> Speaker: 4 x 12 in. =
>G12T-75<BR>>>=20
> Power: 300 watt<BR>>> Impedance: 4 or 16 ohms mono/8 ohms=20
> stereo<BR>>> Dimensions: 760 x 830 x 360mm<BR>>> Weight: =
>36.4=20
> kg<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> <A=20
> =
>href=3D"http://www.zzounds.com/item--MSH1960AX">http://www.zzounds.com/it=
>em--MSH1960AX</A><BR>>>=20
> $1,500.00 $1,049.00<BR>>> Angled=20
> front<BR>>> Vintage-circa early 70's<BR>>> Checkered=20
> cloth<BR>>> White piping<BR>>> Medium size white =
>logo<BR>>>=20
> Black Levant vinyl<BR>>> Gold beading on Cab<BR>>> =
>Speakers: 4=20
> Celestion G12 M-25w SPKR-00016<BR>>> Power: 100 =
>watts<BR>>>=20
> Impedance: 16 ohm<BR>>> Dimensions: 760 x 830 x 360 =
>mm<BR>>>=20
> Weight: 37.7 kg<BR>>> Cover: COVR-00022=20
> optional<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> <A=20
> =
>href=3D"http://www.zzounds.com/item--MSH1960AHW">http://www.zzounds.com/i=
>tem--MSH1960AHW</A><BR>>>=20
> $1,800.00 $1,200.00<BR>>> Loaded with =
>Celestion=20
> G12H-30 re-issue speakers.<BR>>> To complement the 1959HW's =
>visual and=20
> sonic majesty, Marshall offers the<BR><BR>>> 1960AHW (angled) =
>4x12=20
> cabinet. It boasts basket weave fret cloth, metal<BR><BR>>> =
>handles,=20
> "100" logos, and is loaded with Celestion's =
>highly-acclaimed<BR><BR>>>=20
> G12H-30 re-issue speakers.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>=20
> <BR>><BR>><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR>I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, =
>and=20
>you?<BR><A=20
>href=3D"http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html">http://www.polesoft.com/refer=
>.html</A> </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
>;o)
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>I'm never going to start another political thread here as long as I
>live........which may not be that long because the terrorists
>are........ahhh...nevermind......
>
>;o)
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:450ff17a$1@linux...
>>
>>
>> Does anybody remember that post from Chuck? ;o)
>>
>> Just a little hint. I love talking politics as much as the next man of
>course...
>> but I refrain these days due to my role as head newsgroup dude...
>>
>> Mind you we seem to be staying fairly civil about things generally which
>> is great to see. No intolerable meaningless abuse that I've noticed.
>Perhaps
>> we could move some of the politics on to the General group though if we
>want
>> to keep it going. I know some on the group aren't fans of politics in
the
>> main group, which I understand and appreciate.
>>
>> Finish your discussions if you feel the need, but any new threads might
be
>> better placed in General if that's cool... I don't want to damp
|
|
|
|
| Re: OT:movie on 911-youve got to see this [message #71544 is a reply to message #71535] |
Mon, 21 August 2006 09:28  |
Rod Lincoln
Messages: 883
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
gt;>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
>Bill is most certainly running again......he's just wearing a dress this
time.
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:45107e39@linux...
>
> Our situation is directly related to more than half a century of our
> decisions and actions, smart and stupid.
>
> It's of limited usefulness to hone in on the last administration as if
> that's the entire problem, surely you would have to take into account
> decisions made before then and since then.
>
> So while I agree with your point to an extent, it's insufficient to
> inoculate the current admin from its own significant problems.
>
> Bill and George aren't running again so we don't have to argue that one.
> I am not writing off either major party or a third party, but we need a
> change on many levels.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> DJ wrote:
> >> But again, merely pointing fingers backwards
> >> in no way excuses the mistakes and failures of the current government.
> >
> > Our situation is directly related to the fact that our leaders based
their
> > decisions on disinformation that was a result of the policies of the
Clinton
> > administration. I'm not pointing the finger backwards for any other
reason
> > than I feel it is important to keep this in mind lest we elect the same
> > misguided souls with the same naieve and misguided foriegn policy ideas
to
> > office once again and end up in an even bigger mess.........and
yes.......it
> > could be much bigger if the liberals take control of the national
> > legislature.......much less, god forbid, having another Clinton in the
white
> > House.
> >
> >
> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:451035a7@linux...
> >> For most of the Clinton years the balance of power was divided between
> >> both parties. Again, there is plenty of finger pointing to go around.
> >> It's easy enough in hindsight to criticize the previous administration
> >> on a number of counts.
> >>
> >> And in retrospect, those dems made a mistake trusting Bush with that
> >> vote. OTOH, it was a moment of unity.
> >>
> >> Flash forward. Today all branches of national government are controlled
> >> by one party. It doesn't bother me if you want to point blame at some
of
> >> the policies under Clinton. But again, merely pointing fingers
backwards
> >> in no way excuses the mistakes and failures of the current government.
> >>
> >> They walked in stating in clear terms that they felt the previous
> >> government was wrong about almost everything, and then fell flat
> >> overall, domestically and internationally.
> >>
> >> Looking at both governments, we can do better. We must do better.
> >> At some point, and we're coming up on six years, the buck stops with
> >> those in charge now.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -Jamie
> >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> DJ wrote:
> >>> The dems you mentioned authorized the military attack on Iraq as a
last
> >>> resort and I don't believe they were satisfied it was done as such.
> >>>
> >>> How convenient for them when it was the intelligence service that they
> >>> created over 8 years of hard work that they now attempt to slag and
> > blame
> >>> for their decisdions so they can vote for the war before they vote
> > against
> >>> it.
> >>>
> >>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
news:450f8aec@linux...
> >>>> There is plenty of finger pointing to go around. No doubt specific
> >>>> things could have been handled better under the previous government.
> >>>>
> >>>> The transition of power between the previous and current governments
> > was
> >>>> pretty rocky, and a "not invented here" syndrome may have doomed the
> >>>> hand-off of some al-Qaida related work that was in progress.
> >>>>
> >>>> In any case, no government gets a pass by blaming the previous
> >>>> government. The current government, for example, failed to follow
> >>>> through and prioritize the al-Qaida threat ahead of 9/11 and failed
to
> >>>> prevent 9/11; failed to find and capture Bin Laden in Afghanistan;
> >>>> failed to overcome Taliban control of large areas of Afghanistan;
> >>>> allowed record drug production to reestablish itself there; failed to
> >>>> plan for post Iraq invasion problems predicted by their own state
> >>>> department; and they have continually exploited the "war on
terrorism"
> >>>> for domestic political ends.
> >>>>
> >>>> You assert the WMDs were there. However Bush's chief inspector, and
> > Bush
> >>>> himself, say they weren't there after all. It was a bluff. One of the
> >>>> Iraqi expatriate promoters of the bluff got the ear of our
government,
> >>>> was believed, and, last I heard, had parlayed it into a position of
> >>>> power in Iraq after the invasion.
> >>>>
> >>>> The dems you mentioned authorized the military attack on Iraq as a
last
> >>>> resort and I don't believe they were satisfied it was done as such.
> >>>>
> >>>> Preemptive invasion is new as part of the "Bush (Jr.) Doctrine."
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> -Jamie
> >>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> DJ wrote:
> >>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> > news:450f3862@linux...
> >>>>>> Neither, actually. And what we ought to do would depend on the
nature
> >>> of
> >>>>>> the threat.
> >>>>> Agreed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> We might want to start with recommendations published in 1999, well
> >>>>>> before the 9/11 attack.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Terroris m
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We can disagree about whether our current policy is one of
> > overreacting
> >>>>>> or not. We can probably really disagree about the newly minted
> >>>>>> preemptive attack policy. :^)
> >>>>> I don't think there is any newly minted attack policy. There has
> > always
> >>> been
> >>>>> the *clear and present danger* perogative but it needs to be based
on
> >>>>> accurate intelligence. Had this been available, then I doubt that
> > Bush,
> >>>>> Kerry, Kennedy Pelosi and the rest would have authorized the
invasion
> > of
> >>>>> Iraq, or perhaps they would have been able to find the WMD's before
> > they
> >>>>> were shipped out of the country or hidden. I just find it hard to
> >>> stomach
> >>>>> the hypocracy of the democrats whose policies neutered our
> > intelligence
> >>>>> services in the '90's when they trun around and blame Bush for the
> >>> decisions
> >>>>> made based on the intellegence blunders they created in the first
> > place.
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Deej
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> -Jamie
> >>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> DJ wrote:
> >>>>>>> I don't see us overreacting Jamie. However, if there is indication
> > of
> >>>>> some
> >>>>>>> sort of major threat, do we run and tell the NY times or do we
blow
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> threat away before it pays us a visit?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:450f0b12@linux...
> >>>>>>>> Of course they came out with a blustery ultimatum. That's not
news,
> >>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>> an old pattern. It works for them to sit back and suggest that
> > others
> >>>>> do
> >>>>>>>> something via terror-grams such as this. If it makes you afraid
as
> >>>>> well,
> >>>>>>>> my guess is they would see that as a bonus.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> By goading the USA into overreacting it helps them grow, raise
> > money
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> convince others to actually see us as evil and act accordingly.
It
> >>>>>>>> works, we keep falling for it. OTOH, for those here with a
declared
> >>>>>>>> interest in emptying the US treasury, it's likewise beneficial to
> >>> have
> >>>>>>>> the specter of an enemy out there. Fear sells.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We have yet to actually declare war on anyone in this whole mess.
> > How
> >>>>> do
> >>>>>>>> you declare war on a tactic?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Forced conversion and head taxes would go over like a lead
balloon
> > in
> >>>>>>>> the USA. Not gonna happen. We're far more sectarian than, say,
> > Iraq.
> >>>>>>>> Responsible leadership is needed in the world to calm extremist
> >>>>>>>> tendencies on all sides and help rational people who are trying
to
> >>> get
> >>>>>>>> by in worsening times. At the same time we need to be, and are
> >>>>>>>> attempting to be, vigilant against any self righteous group with
> >>>>>>>> fantasies of violence in the USA.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Any rush to some sort of "holy war" is irrational. There is
nothing
> >>>>> holy
> >>>>>>>> about war.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>> -Jamie
> >>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> DJ wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> I haven't seen us react with irrationality.............yet. Al
> >>> Quaeda
> >>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>> came out with an ultimatim stating that it's full on war now and
> > the
> >>>>>>> west
> >>>>>>>>> will be destroyed. The only way to save ourselves is to convert
to
> >>>>>>> Islam. So
> >>>>>>>>> where to you draw the line between irrationality and self
defense?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:450ee7ef@linux...
> >>>>>>>>>> Let's keep from reacting to irrationality with irrationality of
> > our
> >>>>>>> own.
> >>>>>>>>>> There's a lot of fear mongering. Chicken Little is back.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>> -Jamie
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> DJ wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't matter at all whether this was the Pope. The bottom
> >>> line
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> it is rationality as opposed to irrationality.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>> news:450ec970@linux...
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Catholic church doesn't speak for Christianity. Certainly
> > not
> >>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lutherans, and for good reason.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> A Pope criticizing other religions (even other Christian
sects,
> >>>>> even
> >>>>>>>>>>>> other Catholics) is nothing new. Certainly much harsher
things
> >>> have
> >>>>>>>>> been
> >>>>>>>>>>>> said about Islam by some (not all) extreme fundamentalist
> >>>>> Christians.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> And certainly much harsher things have been said by certain
> >>>>> extremist
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Islamists about Christianity. The more extremist of both
camps
> >>> seem
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> be spoiling to relive the crusades. With some of the more
power
> >>>>>>> hungry
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ready to endanger civilization by attempting to incite
> > religious
> >>>>> wars
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for their own questionable ends.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's a vast generalization to say the "the left&q
|
|
|
|
| Re: OT:movie on 911-youve got to see this [message #71545 is a reply to message #71535] |
Mon, 21 August 2006 09:37 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
uot; or
> > "secularists"
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>> even "Christians" are demanding an apology from the Pope. I
> > think
> >>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> whole lot of people think the Pope can say whatever he wants.
> > It
> >>>>>>>>> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> matter to most non-Catholics in the USA and in reality, Papal
> >>>>>>>>>>>> declarations are ignored by a fair number of Catholics here,
> > too.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously some Moslems are upset in some places, but how deep
> >>> does
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> go? When black churches were burning in the USA, it would
have
> >>> been
> >>>>>>> an
> >>>>>>>>>>>> exaggeration to blame everyone in the USA for that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to the Catholic church which only
> > very
> >>>>>>>>>>>> recently apologized for the oppression of Galileo. The church
> >>> hung
> >>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>>>>> tenaciously to the dogma of an earth-centered view of the
> >>> universe
> >>>>>>>>> while
> >>>>>>>>>>>> denying the heliocentric theory of Copernicus, which
describes
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> actual way the solar system works.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It also extends to a few Christian sects who, feeling
similarly
> >>>>>>>>>>>> insecure, tenaciously cling to the notion that the earth is
> > only
> >>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 6,000 years old, by virtue of the biblical interpretations
and
> >>>>> clever
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (at the time) calculations of an Irish Bishop several
centuries
> >>>>> ago,
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> in the face of solid current scientific evidence to the
> > contrary.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some (not all) Christian
churches
> >>>>> who,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> feeling similarly insecure, deny the solid and ever-mounting
> >>>>> evidence
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> evolution, responding with dogma in psuedo-scientific
clothing,
> >>> and
> >>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>>>>>>> seek to water down scientific education in the USA.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to power hungry industries who pay
> > big
> >>>>>>> bucks
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to spread denial about global warming for short term gain.
Who
> >>> push
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> control oil in the middle east with force. With our guns
> > blazing,
> >>>>> our
> >>>>>>>>>>>> soldiers dying and our debt rising astronomically. And who
> >>>>> sometimes
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hide behind Christianity to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some neoconservatives who find
> > ways
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> pretend that everyone is aligning against Christianity. And
in
> >>>>>>>>> spreading
> >>>>>>>>>>>> this fear attempt to incite Christians to vote to keep them
in
> >>>>> power.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> And in so pandering, help to continue the denial of reason
and
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>>> focus
> >>>>>>>>>>>> on the use of force.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Not that I'll change your mind, DC, so go ahead and declare
> >>>>> victory.
> >>>>>>>>> ;^)
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Have a great week!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> -Jamie
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> DC wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought this was worth reading if any of you are
interested.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Have a great Monday!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Unholy Alliance Rolls Over the Pope
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> By Andrew Walden
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In what has suddenly been made into a highly controversial
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> speech, the day after September 11, at Bavaria’s University
of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regensberg, Pope Benedict describes Christian belief in a
God
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> whose words and acts are bound by reason, truth and the law
of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> non-contradiction. Benedict contrasts this with Islamic
> > belief
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in a God not bound by anything—including his own words.
> >>> Benedict
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> further contrasts Christian belief with that of secular
> >>> humanists
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> who see reason as being completely unbound of God.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In response, both Islamists and secularists have demanded
the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Pope apologize. Benedict’s speech is a work of enlightened
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> genius. He has clearly laid out the differences between
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian culture and Islamic culture and the basis of the
> > clash
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of civilizations we now experience as the War on Terror. His
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> analysis also explains the underlying cause of the alliance
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> between the western Left and the Islamofascist Right.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Islamist reaction focuses on one sentence in the speech.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Reaching back to 1391, Benedict quotes Byzantine Emperor
> > Manuel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> II: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and
> > there
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his
> > command
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Four days later, according to AP: “Pakistan's legislature
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> unanimously condemned Pope Benedict XVI. Lebanon's top
Shiite
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cleric demanded an apology. And in Turkey, the ruling party
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> likened the pontiff to Hitler and Mussolini and accused him
of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> reviving the mentality of the Crusades.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> “Across the Islamic world Friday, Benedict's remarks on
Islam
> >>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> jihad in a speech in Germany unleashed a torrent of rage
that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> many fear could burst into violent protests like those that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> followed publication of caricatures of the Prophet
Muhammad.”
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Reuters quoted other sources expressing fears for the Pope’s
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> safety and even fear of an attack on Vatican City.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Islamist reaction proves Manuel II’s 600-year-old point.
> >>> The
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> reaction is not one of anger but a calculated attempt to
force
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Pope to parrot the PC line on Islam. Since Islam need
not
> > be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> internally consistent and it is not bound by reason, it’s
only
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> objective can be to assert the power of a God who is so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> transcendent that He is not bound by anything. If man is
> > created
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in God’s image then by extension Islamic man is not bound by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anything. (This explains the predilection on the part of
some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Muslims to lie.) Islamists are not responding to any
‘offense’
> >>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> their non-existent morality. They are asserting the only
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ‘morality’ they have—the will to power.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> “Will to Power” is a key element of Nietzsche ’s
> >>> philosophy—hence
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the root of the term, Islamofascist. Moreover the Western
> > “Left’
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is today guided far more by Nietzsche existentialist thought
> >>> than
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> by Marxist thought—hence the alliance between the Western
> > “Left”
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Islamofascist ‘Right.’
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Reuters quotes an Indian Muslim leader doing precisely what
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Manuel II said they would: “Syed Ahmed Bukhari, the chief
> > cleric
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of New Delhi's historic Jama Masjid, India's largest mosque,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> extolled Muslims to ‘respond in a manner which forces the
Pope
> >>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> apologize.’” Note they intend to use “force” not reason.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Reuters quotes an unnamed diplomat pointing out the Pope
was,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> “calling a spade a spade”.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The secularist mouthpiece, New York Times,editorializes,
“Pope
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Benedict XVI has insulted Muslims….” This is false. The
Pope
> > ’s
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> description of the Islamic God as being unbound by reason is
> > not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> an insult, it is an Islamic article of faith. What Muslims
> > and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> secularists fear is the Pope’s decision to choose to enter
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> dialogue asserting his belief in Christianity. How dare he
> > not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> “apologize” for being a Christian? That is the so-called
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> “insult.”
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One might “reasonably” ask when will Muslims “apologize” for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> being Muslim? But they are not bound by reason to the point
is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lost on them.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazingly the Times continues: “Muslim leaders the world
over
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> have demanded apologies… For many Muslims, holy war —
jihad —
> > is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a spiritual struggle, and not a call to violence.” In
saying
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> this, the Times implicitly recognizes the Islamists are
waging
> > a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> propaganda jihad against the Pope and by extension against
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Christianity—and they explicitly endorse and join this
jihad.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Times is saying to Islamists, ‘we can join your
‘spiritual
> > ’
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> jihad, but not your violent jihad.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Times editors are living in a fool’s paradise. The
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> “spiritual” non-violent jihad of propaganda is merely the
flip
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> side of the violent jihad. Nowhere is that more clear than
in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Islamist reaction to the Pope.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the Pope scheduled to visit Turkey in November the
> >>> Islamists
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> are rejecting any apology from Vatican spokespersons and
> > demand
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to hear from the Pope himself. This would place raging mobs
> > of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> semi-literate Islamist thugs in the position of forcing the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> leader of Christendom to bow before them.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In this demand for submission they are joined by the
> > secularist
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> mouthpiece. In its September 16 edition the Times
> >>> editorializes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> “He needs to offer a deep and persuasive apology…” The
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> secularists too seek the Pope’s submission. Like the
> > Islamists,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the secularists are driven only by their will to power.
While
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Islamists represent their demented version of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> God--unrestrained by reason, the secularists represent their
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> demented version of reason--unrestrained by God. They are
> >>> united
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> by their self-worshipping world view.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It should be noted that the carefully
|
|
|
|
| Re: OT:movie on 911-youve got to see this [message #71548 is a reply to message #71535] |
Mon, 21 August 2006 10:43 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
at he considers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tenable in matters of religion, and the subjective
‘conscience
> > ’
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> becomes the sole arbiter of what is ethical.”
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Benedict asserts that without reason, or without God, there
> > can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> be no modern system of morality. He explains, “In this
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> way…ethics and religion lose their power to create a
community
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and become (instead) a completely personal matter.”
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Islamist and secularist seek to break God and reason
> > apart.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Each claims superiority over the Christian West. They
believe
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolute moral license makes them powerful. As
globalization
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> carries the Western tradition of reason throughout the
world,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> both are in decline.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Where the force of reason is defeated, Islamist and
secularist
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> will meet in combat, just as Hitler’s fascists broke their
> > pact
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with the Soviet Union, invading in June, 1941 after the
> > collapse
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the allied forces on the western front.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What the Islamists and the New York Times both fear is
having
> > to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> reply to the Pope’s key point, borrowed from the Byzantine
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Emperor: “‘Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos
(word
> >>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> reason) is contrary to the nature of God,’.… It is to this
> >>> great
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our
partners
> > in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the dialogue of cultures.”
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Their fear of reason can only lead the world to disaster.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>
> >
> >No. I think the situation in Iraq, as it stands right now, is a result of
the left undercutting the administration at every turn and thereby giving
aid and encouragement to our enemies who, when they see the country so
divided, can take it to the bank that the left will do their fair share to
defeat our efforts. I'm just blaming the intelligence deficit and the lack
of leadership that led to the UN sanctions being undercut at every turn on
Clinton, otherwise the war that started in 1991, would not still be
happening. Thius is a war that never stopped. It could have if Clinton would
have had his eye on the ball and exercised some of the great *international
leadership* that his supporters fantisize so much about.........but he
didn't. He allowed the sanctions to be undercut by *our allies*.
"Uptown Jimmy" <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:45108022@linux...
> So...you're blaming the situation in Iraq on Bill Clinton? Is that right?
>
> Cuz that seems absurd to me.
>
> Just sayin'.
>
> Jimmy
>
>
> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
> news:4510721c@linux...
> > >But again, merely pointing fingers backwards
> > >in no way excuses the mistakes and failures of the current government.
> >
> > Our situation is directly related to the fact that our leaders based
their
> > decisions on disinformation that was a result of the policies of the
> Clinton
> > administration. I'm not pointing the finger backwards for any other
reason
> > than I feel it is important to keep this in mind lest we elect the same
> > misguided souls with the same naieve and misguided foriegn policy ideas
to
> > office once again and end up in an even bigger mess.........and
> yes.......it
> > could be much bigger if the liberals take control of the national
> > legislature.......much less, god forbid, having another Clinton in the
> white
> > House.
> >
> >
> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:451035a7@linux...
> > >
> > > For most of the Clinton years the balance of power was divided between
> > > both parties. Again, there is plenty of finger pointing to go around.
> > > It's easy enough in hindsight to criticize the previous administration
> > > on a number of counts.
> > >
> > > And in retrospect, those dems made a mistake trusting Bush with that
> > > vote. OTOH, it was a moment of unity.
> > >
> > > Flash forward. Today all branches of national government are
controlled
> > > by one party. It doesn't bother me if you want to point blame at some
of
> > > the policies under Clinton. But again, merely pointing fingers
backwards
> > > in no way excuses the mistakes and failures of the current government.
> > >
> > > They walked in stating in clear terms that they felt the previous
> > > government was wrong about almost everything, and then fell flat
> > > overall, domestically and internationally.
> > >
> > > Looking at both governments, we can do better. We must do better.
> > > At some point, and we're coming up on six years, the buck stops with
> > > those in charge now.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > -Jamie
> > > http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > DJ wrote:
> > > > The dems you mentioned authorized the military attack on Iraq as a
> last
> > > > resort and I don't believe they were satisfied it was done as such.
> > > >
> > > > How convenient for them when it was the intelligence service that
they
> > > > created over 8 years of hard work that they now attempt to slag and
> > blame
> > > > for their decisdions so they can vote for the war before they vote
> > against
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> news:450f8aec@linux...
> > > >> There is plenty of finger pointing to go around. No doubt specific
> > > >> things could have been handled better under the previous
government.
> > > >>
> > > >> The transition of power between the previous and current
governments
> > was
> > > >> pretty rocky, and a "not invented here" syndrome may have doomed
the
> > > >> hand-off of some al-Qaida related work that was in progress.
> > > >>
> > > >> In any case, no government gets a pass by blaming the previous
> > > >> government. The current government, for example, failed to follow
> > > >> through and prioritize the al-Qaida threat ahead of 9/11 and failed
> to
> > > >> prevent 9/11; failed to find and capture Bin Laden in Afghanistan;
> > > >> failed to overcome Taliban control of large areas of Afghanistan;
> > > >> allowed record drug production to reestablish itself there; failed
to
> > > >> plan for post Iraq invasion problems predicted by their own state
> > > >> department; and they have continually exploited the "war on
> terrorism"
> > > >> for domestic political ends.
> > > >>
> > > >> You assert the WMDs were there. However Bush's chief inspector, and
> > Bush
> > > >> himself, say they weren't there after all. It was a bluff. One of
the
> > > >> Iraqi expatriate promoters of the bluff got the ear of our
> government,
> > > >> was believed, and, last I heard, had parlayed it into a position of
> > > >> power in Iraq after the invasion.
> > > >>
> > > >> The dems you mentioned authorized the military attack on Iraq as a
> last
> > > >> resort and I don't believe they were satisfied it was done as such.
> > > >>
> > > >> Preemptive invasion is new as part of the "Bush (Jr.) Doctrine."
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers,
> > > >> -Jamie
> > > >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> DJ wrote:
> > > >>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> > news:450f3862@linux...
> > > >>>> Neither, actually. And what we ought to do would depend on the
> nature
> > > > of
> > > >>>> the threat.
> > > >>> Agreed.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> We might want to start with recommendations published in 1999,
well
> > > >>>> before the 9/11 attack.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Terroris m
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> We can disagree about whether our current policy is one of
> > overreacting
> > > >>>> or not. We can probably really disagree about the newly minted
> > > >>>> preemptive attack policy. :^)
> > > >>> I don't think there is any newly minted attack policy. There has
> > always
> > > > been
> > > >>> the *clear and present danger* perogative but it needs to be based
> on
> > > >>> accurate intelligence. Had this been available, then I doubt that
> > Bush,
> > > >>> Kerry, Kennedy Pelosi and the rest would have authorized the
> invasion
> > of
> > > >>> Iraq, or perhaps they would have been able to find the WMD's
before
> > they
> > > >>> were shipped out of the country or hidden. I just find it hard to
> > > > stomach
> > > >>> the hypocracy of the democrats whose policies neutered our
> > intelligence
> > > >>> services in the '90's when they trun around and blame Bush for the
> > > > decisions
> > > >>> made based on the intellegence blunders they created in the first
> > place.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Regards,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Deej
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>> -Jamie
> > > >>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> DJ wrote:
> > > >>>>> I don't see us overreacting Jamie. However, if there is
indication
> > of
> > > >>> some
> > > >>>>> sort of major threat, do we run and tell the NY times or do we
> blow
> > > > the
> > > >>>>> threat away before it pays us a visit?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:450f0b12@linux...
> > > >>>>>> Of course they came out with a blustery ultimatum. That's not
> news,
> > > >>> it's
> > > >>>>>> an old pattern. It works for them to sit back and suggest that
> > others
> > > >>> do
> > > >>>>>> something via terror-grams such as this. If it makes you afraid
> as
> > > >>> well,
> > > >>>>>> my guess is they would see that as a bonus.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> By goading the USA into overreacting it helps them grow, raise
> > money
> > > >>> and
> > > >>>>>> convince others to actually see us as evil and act accordingly.
> It
> > > >>>>>> works, we keep falling for it. OTOH, for those here with a
> declared
> > > >>>>>> interest in emptying the US treasury, it's likewise beneficial
to
> > > > have
> > > >>>>>> the specter of an enemy out there. Fear sells.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> We have yet to actually declare war on anyone in this whole
mess.
> > How
> > > >>> do
> > > >>>>>> you declare war on a tactic?
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Forced conversion and head taxes would go over like a lead
> balloon
> > in
> > > >>>>>> the USA. Not gonna happen. We're far more sectarian than, say,
> > Iraq.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Responsible leadership is needed in the world to calm extremist
> > > >>>>>> tendencies on all sides and help rational people who are trying
> to
> > > > get
> > > >>>>>> by in worsening times. At the same time we need to be, and are
> > > >>>>>> attempting to be, vigilant against any self righteous group
with
> > > >>>>>> fantasies of violence in the USA.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Any rush to some sort of "holy war" is irrational. There is
> nothing
> > > >>> holy
> > > >>>>>> about war.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>> -Jamie
> > > >>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> DJ wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> I haven't seen us react with irrationality.............yet.
Al
> > > > Quaeda
> > > >>>>> just
> > > >>>>>>> came out with an ultimatim stating that it's full on war now
and
> > the
> > > >>>>> west
> > > >>>>>>> will be destroyed. The only way to save ourselves is to
convert
> to
> > > >>>>> Islam. So
> > > >>>>>>> where to you draw the line between irrationality and self
> defense?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> > > >>> news:450ee7ef@linux...
> > > >>>>>>>> Let's keep from reacting to irrationality with irrationality
of
> > our
> > > >>>>> own.
> > > >>>>>>>> There's a lot of fear mongering. Chicken Little is back.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>>>> -Jamie
> > > >>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> > > >>>>>>>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: OT:movie on 911-youve got to see this [message #71549 is a reply to message #71545] |
Mon, 21 August 2006 10:46 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
r />
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> DJ wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>> It doesn't matter at all whether this was the Pope. The
bottom
> > > > line
> > > >>> is
> > > >>>>>>> that
> > > >>>>>>>>> it is rationality as opposed to irrationality.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> > > >>>>> news:450ec970@linux...
> > > >>>>>>>>>> The Catholic church doesn't speak for Christianity.
Certainly
> > not
> > > >>> for
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Lutherans, and for good reason.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> A Pope criticizing other religions (even other Christian
> sects,
> > > >>> even
> > > >>>>>>>>>> other Catholics) is nothing new. Certainly much harsher
> things
> > > > have
> > > >>>>>>> been
> > > >>>>>>>>>> said about Islam by some (not all) extreme fundamentalist
> > > >>> Christians.
> > > >>>>>>>>>> And certainly much harsher things have been said by certain
> > > >>> extremist
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Islamists about Christianity. The more extremist of both
> camps
> > > > seem
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>> be spoiling to relive the crusades. With some of the more
> power
> > > >>>>> hungry
> > > >>>>>>>>>> ready to endanger civilization by attempting to incite
> > religious
> > > >>> wars
> > > >>>>>>>>>> for their own questionable ends.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> It's a vast generalization to say the "the left" or
> > "secularists"
> > > >>> or
> > > >>>>>>>>>> even "Christians" are demanding an apology from the Pope. I
> > think
> > > > a
> > > >>>>>>>>>> whole lot of people think the Pope can say whatever he
wants.
> > It
> > > >>>>>>> doesn't
> > > >>>>>>>>>> matter to most non-Catholics in the USA and in reality,
Papal
> > > >>>>>>>>>> declarations are ignored by a fair number of Catholics
here,
> > too.
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Obviously some Moslems are upset in some places, but how
deep
> > > > does
> > > >>>>> that
> > > >>>>>>>>>> go? When black churches were burning in the USA, it would
> have
> > > > been
> > > >>>>> an
> > > >>>>>>>>>> exaggeration to blame everyone in the USA for that.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to the Catholic church which
only
> > very
> > > >>>>>>>>>> recently apologized for the oppression of Galileo. The
church
> > > > hung
> > > >>> on
> > > >>>>>>>>>> tenaciously to the dogma of an earth-centered view of the
> > > > universe
> > > >>>>>>> while
> > > >>>>>>>>>> denying the heliocentric theory of Copernicus, which
> describes
> > > > the
> > > >>>>>>>>>> actual way the solar system works.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> It also extends to a few Christian sects who, feeling
> similarly
> > > >>>>>>>>>> insecure, tenaciously cling to the notion that the earth is
> > only
> > > >>>>> about
> > > >>>>>>>>>> 6,000 years old, by virtue of the biblical interpretations
> and
> > > >>> clever
> > > >>>>>>>>>> (at the time) calculations of an Irish Bishop several
> centuries
> > > >>> ago,
> > > >>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>> in the face of solid current scientific evidence to the
> > contrary.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some (not all) Christian
> churches
> > > >>> who,
> > > >>>>>>>>>> feeling similarly insecure, deny the solid and
ever-mounting
> > > >>> evidence
> > > >>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>> evolution, responding with dogma in psuedo-scientific
> clothing,
> > > > and
> > > >>>>> who
> > > >>>>>>>>>> seek to water down scientific education in the USA.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to power hungry industries who
pay
> > big
> > > >>>>> bucks
> > > >>>>>>>>>> to spread denial about global warming for short term gain.
> Who
> > > > push
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>> control oil in the middle east with force. With our guns
> > blazing,
> > > >>> our
> > > >>>>>>>>>> soldiers dying and our debt rising astronomically. And who
> > > >>> sometimes
> > > >>>>>>>>>> hide behind Christianity to do so.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some neoconservatives who
find
> > ways
> > > >>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>> pretend that everyone is aligning against Christianity. And
> in
> > > >>>>>>> spreading
> > > >>>>>>>>>> this fear attempt to incite Christians to vote to keep them
> in
> > > >>> power.
> > > >>>>>>>>>> And in so pandering, help to continue the denial of reason
> and
> > > > the
> > > >>>>>>> focus
> > > >>>>>>>>>> on the use of force.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Not that I'll change your mind, DC, so go ahead and declare
> > > >>> victory.
> > > >>>>>>> ;^)
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Have a great week!
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>>>>>> -Jamie
> > > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> DC wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> I thought this was worth reading if any of you are
> interested.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Have a great Monday!
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> The Unholy Alliance Rolls Over the Pope
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> By Andrew Walden
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> In what has suddenly been made into a highly controversial
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> speech, the day after September 11, at Bavaria's
University
> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Regensberg, Pope Benedict describes Christian belief in a
> God
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> whose words and acts are bound by reason, truth and the
law
> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> non-contradiction. Benedict contrasts this with Islamic
> > belief
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> in a God not bound by anything-including his own words.
> > > > Benedict
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> further contrasts Christian belief with that of secular
> > > > humanists
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> who see reason as being completely unbound of God.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> In response, both Islamists and secularists have demanded
> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Pope apologize. Benedict's speech is a work of enlightened
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> genius. He has clearly laid out the differences between
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Christian culture and Islamic culture and the basis of the
> > clash
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> of civilizations we now experience as the War on Terror.
His
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> analysis also explains the underlying cause of the
alliance
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> between the western Left and the Islamofascist Right.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Islamist reaction focuses on one sentence in the speech.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Reaching back to 1391, Benedict quotes Byzantine Emperor
> > Manuel
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> II: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and
> > there
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his
> > command
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Four days later, according to AP: "Pakistan's legislature
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> unanimously condemned Pope Benedict XVI. Lebanon's top
> Shiite
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> cleric demanded an apology. And in Turkey, the ruling
party
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> likened the pontiff to Hitler and Mussolini and accused
him
> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> reviving the mentality of the Crusades.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> "Across the Islamic world Friday, Benedict's remarks on
> Islam
> > > > and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> jihad in a speech in Germany unleashed a torrent of rage
> that
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> many fear could burst into violent protests like those
that
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> followed publication of caricatures of the Prophet
> Muhammad."
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Reuters quoted other sources expressing fears for the
Pope's
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> safety and even fear of an attack on Vatican City.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> The Islamist reaction proves Manuel II's 600-year-old
point.
> > > > The
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> reaction is not one of anger but a calculated attempt to
> force
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> the Pope to parrot the PC line on Islam. Since Islam need
> not
> > be
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> internally consistent and it is not bound by reason, it's
> only
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> objective can be to assert the power of a God who is so
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> transcendent that He is not bound by anything. If man is
> > created
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> in God's image then by extension Islamic man is not bound
by
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> anything. (This explains the predilection on the part of
> some
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Muslims to lie.) Islamists are not responding to any
> 'offense'
> > > > to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> their non-existent morality. They are asserting the only
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> 'morality' they have-the will to power.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> "Will to Power" is a key element of Nietzsche 's
> > > > philosophy-hence
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> the root of the term, Islamofascist. Moreover the Western
> > "Left'
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> is today guided far more by Nietzsche existentialist
thought
> > > > than
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> by Marxist thought-hence the alliance between the Western
> > "Left"
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> and the Islamofascist 'Right.'
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Reuters quotes an Indian Muslim leader doing precisely
what
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Manuel II said they would: "Syed Ahmed Bukhari, the chief
> > cleric
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> of New Delhi's historic Jama Masjid, India's largest
mosque,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> extolled Muslims to 'respond in a manner which forces the
> Pope
> > > > to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> apologize.'" Note they intend to use "force" not reason.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Reuters quotes an unnamed diplomat pointing out the Pope
> was,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> "calling a spade a spade".
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> The secularist mouthpiece, New York Times,editorializes,
> "Pope
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Benedict XVI has insulted Muslims.." This is false. The
> Pope
> > 's
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> description of the Islamic God as being unbound by reason
is
> > not
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> an insult, it is an Islamic article of faith. What
Muslims
> > and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> secularists fear is the Pope's decision to choose to enter
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> dialogue asserting his belief in Christianity. How dare
he
> > not
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> "apologize" for being a Christian? That is the so-called
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> "insult."
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> One might "reasonably" ask when will Muslims "apologize"
for
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> being Muslim? But they are not bound by reason to the
point
> is
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> lost on them.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Amazingly the Times continues: "Muslim leaders the world
> over
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> have demanded apologies. For many Muslims, holy war -
> jihad -
> > is
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> a spiritual struggle, and not a call to violence." In
> saying
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> this, the Times implicitly recognizes the Islamists are
> waging
> > a
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> propaganda jihad against the Pope and by extension against
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Christianity-and they explicitly endorse and join this
> jihad.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> The Times is saying to Islamists, 'we can join your
> 'spiritual
> > '
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> jihad, but not your violent jihad.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> The Times editors are living in a fool's paradise. The
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> "spiritual" non-violent jihad of propaganda is merely the
> flip
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> side of the violent jihad. Nowhere is that more clear
than
> in
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> the Islamist reaction to the Pope.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> With the Pope scheduled to visit Turkey in November the
> > > > Islamists
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> are rejecting any apology from Vatican spokespersons and
> > demand
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> to hear from the Pope himself. This would place raging
mobs
> > of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> semi-lite
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Wed Sep 09 05:06:52 PDT 2026
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.00820 seconds
|
The PARIS Forums
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
