Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Spam!
| Spam! [message #69980] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 01:31  |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
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Member |
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t; and then
left
> >> it
> >>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than competition.
> >>
> >> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
> >> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
> >> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
> >> they do? All is permitted.
> >>
> >> This is not God's plan for us.
> >>
> >>
> >
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| Re: Spam! [message #69984 is a reply to message #69980] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 02:58  |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
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Senior Member |
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/>
>
>Ok, here's the short version. (It's my wife's birthday and we are
>getting out of town)
>
>I will do a longer version, with pics, later.
>
>I started thinking about all this a year or so ago when I got my
>Petersen Virtual Strobe tuner. On the chromatic setting you can
>check the intonation very easily at the nut by perfectly tuning the
>open string and the pressing down the string at the first fret.
>
>Ouch, my guitars averaged 4 out of 6 strings out of tune.
>
>(btw, let me add, that you cannot fix this problem with adjusting
>your tuning. You can make it a bit better, in certain keys, but you
>can't fix it. oh, also, if the height of the string slot is right, the
>pressing down of the string is not significant here in terms of tuning
>accuracy. a fact I doubted, un
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| Re: Spam! [message #69990 is a reply to message #69988] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 07:50 |
Tom Bruhl
Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
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igh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I learned
>>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel compelled
> to
>>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently wrong
> in
>>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still trying to
> view
>>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to call
> "me."
>>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant. Faith is
>>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not rest
> on
>>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own definition
> if
>>> you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to me. If
> you
>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I believe in
>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
>>>
>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I personally
> do
>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I see no
>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent claims.
> I
>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel truly
>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe this
>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very superficial
> and
>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think it's
> silly
>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in the
> sky."
>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the opposite, my
>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient dogma
> that
>>> I have no reason to believe.
>>>
>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer words: I
>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG time
> ago),
>>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to believe
> that
>>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and a
> smattering
>>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because it
> claims
>>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient human
> beings
>>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible is the
>>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme being.
>>>
>>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you believe in a
> way
>>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know WHAT you
>>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some years.
> What I
>>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope? Because
> you
>>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your parents
>>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because you
> happened
>>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been born in
>>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
>>>
>>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
>>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does this
> make
>>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough of a
> threat
>>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill him?
>>>
>>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to share with
>>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no right or
>>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in God,
> Heaven,
>>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to behave
>>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on
>>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is
>>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained
> by
>>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein
>>>
>>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because the
> evil of
>>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about what
> has
>>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I believe
>>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about the
>>> potential consequences of this.
>>>
>>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another hour
> that I
>>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by now
> that
>>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer clings to
>>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again,
> beliefs
>>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs are not
>>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
>>>
>>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
>>>
>>> Sarah
>>>
>>>
>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message news:44e23a46$1@linux...
>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahton
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| Re: Spam! [message #70004 is a reply to message #69981] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 14:31 |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
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Member |
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't explain it to you. It's obviously,
> >>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
> >>>
> >>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
personally
> > do
> >>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I see
no
> >>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
claims.
> > I
> >>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel truly
> >>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe this
> >>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very superficial
> > and
> >>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think it's
> > silly
> >>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in the
> > sky."
> >>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the opposite,
my
> >>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limi
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| Re: Spam! [message #70007 is a reply to message #69990] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 14:43 |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
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Member |
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br />
> >>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
restrained
> > by
> >>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein
> >>>
> >>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because the
> > evil of
> >>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about
what
> > has
> >>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
believe
> >>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about the
> >>> potential consequences of this.
> >>>
> >>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another hour
> > that I
> >>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by now
> > that
> >>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer clings
to
> >>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again,
> > beliefs
> >>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs are
not
> >>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
> >>>
> >>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
> >>>
> >>> Sarah
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message news:44e23a46$1@linux...
> >>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
> >>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by
faith.
> >>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
> >>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call God
> >>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
> >>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views are
> >>>> human at the source.
> >>>>
> >>>> I disagree emphatically.
> >>>>
> >>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
> >>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
> >>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and then
> > left
> >>>> it
> >>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
competition.
> >>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
> >>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
> >>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
> >>>> they do? All is permitted.
> >>>>
> >>>> This is not God's plan for us.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> The
> >>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical and
> >>>>> effective
> >>>>> way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
> >>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
> >>>> rules".
> >>>>
> >>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
> >>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm fine
> > with
> >>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be fun to
> > say
> >>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be honest
> > here
> >>>> --
> >>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even then.
> > And
> >>>> I'm
> >>>>> sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me.
It's
> > just
> >>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
backward
> >>>>> human
> >>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been
inspired
> > by
> >>>> a
> >>>>> supreme being.
> >>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
> >>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
> >>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
> >>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
> >>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
> >>>> themselves...
> >>>>
> >>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
> >>>> assumptions about existence.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead Iraqis
> >>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile. What
> > do
> >>>> you
> >>>>> think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of
brown
> >>>>> rice?
> >>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists?
100?
> >>>> 500?
> >>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were innocent
and
> >>>>> their
> >>>>> families.
> >>>&g
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| Re: Spam! [message #70008 is a reply to message #69991] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 14:47 |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
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Member |
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t;>
> >>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded or
> > maimed.
> >>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can think
> > of
> >>>> some
> >>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't, but
it's
> > a
> >>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
jumpsuits
> > and
> >>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sarah
> >>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
> >>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in all
> >>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
> >>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules, you
> >>>> would have to.
> >>>>
> >>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring themselves
to
> > do
> >>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
> >>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
> >>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
> >>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
> >>>>
> >>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
> >>>> ghouls
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| Re: Spam! [message #70009 is a reply to message #69998] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 14:53 |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
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Member |
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and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
> >>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms, to
kill
> >>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
> >>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
> >>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
> >>>>
> >>>> DC
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >
> >Elephant's Memory - Touching Story.
In 1986, Mkele Mbembe was on holiday in Kenya after graduating
from college. On a hike through the bush, he came across a young
bull elephant standing with one leg raised in the air. The elephant seemed
distressed so Mbembe approached it very carefully.
He got down on one knee and inspected the elephant's foot, and
found a large thorn deeply embedded in it. As carefully and as
gently as he could, Mbembe worked the thorn out with his hunting
knife, after which the elephant gingerly put down its foot.
The elephant turned to face the man and with a rather stern look
on its face, stared at him. For several tense moments Mbembe
stood frozen, thinking of nothing else but being trampled.
Eventually the elephant trumpeted loudly, turned and walked away.
Mbembe never forgot that elephant or the events of that day
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| Re: Spam! [message #70011 is a reply to message #70009] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 15:09 |
Tony Benson
Messages: 453
Registered: June 2006
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Senior Member |
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preemptive retaliation!
Preemptive retaliation, think about that oxymoron. Very creative. Lots
of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of what
you observed there illustrates the challenge we're talking about.
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
DJ wrote:
>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
> them?
> Interesting that you should ask. there was recently a forum held at a local
> church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and American
> Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims whether they
> would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of other
> religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds before the
> Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and he never
> gave a straight answer.
>
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e3f062@linux...
>> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
>> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing for
>> disagreement.
>>
>> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the nightly
>> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
>>
>> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to Durango to
>> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors concluded
>> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on 'em!
>>
>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
> them
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| Re: Spam! [message #70019 is a reply to message #70008] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 17:38 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
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Senior Member |
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ars ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel compelled
to
>make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently wrong
in
>your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still trying to
view
>me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to call "me."
So, what you believe does not need to be actually true (as in
reflecting reality) but can be true for you alone? Your reality?
This, of course, begs the question of the existence of God, since
your system does not allow for objectivity. You define the "god"
that you need, correct?
Christians believe in an objective creator and absolute morality.
We do not know all of it, and we certainly don't live up to it very
often, but we aspire to it because we believe it to be *real*. It is
a truth claim.
Reality is that which makes universal claims to truth, not a unique
set of views that works for one person only. I believe in a perfect
and objective reality that I aspire to understand some day. I firmly
believe that there is all the evidence I need to understand my role
in life and what the future holds for me however.
>First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant. Faith is
>essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not rest on
>logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own definition if
>you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to me.
It's inadequate. Faith is really the active participation of humanity,
in the context of millions of pieces of supportive evidence,
with our eyes wide open, in the creative activity of understanding
and being a part of, existence, as it really is.
It is not blind in the least.
>If you
>have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I believe in
>gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
>demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
No one else can explain it either. It's kind of.. ummm... the warping
of the space-time fabric around objects that possess sufficent mass.
Whatever that means.
Ok, the universe is expanding. Hubble's constant, supported
by thousands of observations and experiments, proves it.
But wait, there's not
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| Re: Spam! [message #70020 is a reply to message #70019] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 17:41 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
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Senior Member |
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enough mass to explain this... Ok, it must be
"dark matter" (don't ask), oh no, it's actually "vibrating strings"
which account for the missing mass (really, don't ask!).
No one has ever seen such things. But they make the equations
work out, so they or something like them, may be true.
Does this process sound a lot like my description of faith above?
Of course it does
You simply must discard the mistaken notion that there is objective
evidence that makes faith blind. There is not.
>Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I personally
do
>not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I see no
>evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent claims.
I
>do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel truly
>connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe this
>"supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very superficial and
>frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think it's silly
>to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in the sky."
>I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the opposite, my
>mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient dogma
that
>I have no reason to believe.
No, you can make it up as you go along. Which of course, makes
you "god", doesn't it? How can you possibly be so sure that
God has not tried to contact us, and that Jesus was not who he said
he was? You believe he was not and your belief is based upon
at minimum, the work and traditions of atheists.
But, if God is real, the Creator God whose son was called Jesus,
then it is reasonable that He is interested in communicating with
us. Who has cast "god" solely in her own "unique" model, and who
has placed God outside of us all and needing to be known?
Who has anthropomorphized whom?
How does your "god" differ from an idealized Sarah Jane? How do
you answer atheists and natrualists who call your ideas mere
wishful thinking and comforting myth making?
My God does not fill me with warm feelings very often. He rarely
thrills me and makes me feel loved. Mostly He teaches me, and
sometimes in brutal fashion, how far I need to go from this
wretched being I am. I sometimes really dislike God a lot for kicking
my ass so hard and so regularly.
Religious? I dunno how you can call me that...
Now, when I look backwards at my life, and I see how God has
led me through things that should have literally killed me, or at least
*ruined* my life, and I look at who I am vs. who I would have been
without Him, I shudder at how close a call it has been, and I thank
Him again for saving me in spite of myself.
>Which leads me to the real po
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| Re: Spam! [message #70023 is a reply to message #70019] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 19:24 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
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Senior Member |
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bible was handy?
No, because I hated the church, and I called out to God, and he
led me back. I still hate it, but I am learning how to make it better.
>Because your parents believed it?
That lasted till about10 years old for me...
>Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus?
Never dropped acid. Always seemed a dumb-sh*t thing to do. sorry
>Because you happened to be born here rather than India or Iran?
See above...
>And if you had been born in India or Iran, would you be just as fervently
Hindu or Muslim?
See above...
>Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
>omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does this make
>any sense?
Do you have sins? I know I do. Where did this come from? This
"sin" thing? It happened first when humans decided they knew
better than God, what they should do. Boy, I wish we could take
that one back. And so we sin to this day. We needed a way out,
a way to escape the natural consequences of sin, that being
seperation from God, the source of life. When they Deluxe Reverb
gets unplugged from the wall, the music goes away. When the
human gets unplugged from God, the human goes away. Jesus
was the great liberator of humanity. He provided a way to re-enter
a healthy relationship with the almighty, and hey, it only requires
a bit of trust and faith. What a deal!
>You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to share with
>other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no right or
>wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in God, Heaven,
>or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to behave
>accordingly.
I never said that! I said without God, there is no basis for right and
wrong other than what you think and what I think. Obviously, we
think a lot about all this, and we have been trying to come up with
secular models for morality since the Enlightenment, but they have
all failed because they are all purely self-referential. Your model,
for instance, rests on the assumption that "everyone just knows
these things". I assure you they do not. This will get worse, not
better, in the future.
We can threaten people, we can impose our version or morality
with a gun, we can blather about "social contracts" and more,
but we cannot come up with a morality that is transcendant
and permanent. That's because only God has one.
Oh, and BTW, once again, you are arguing as an atheist:
----
>One does not need to believe in God, Heaven,
>or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong
----
But you claim to not be an atheist! But you also claim to not need
God for much of anything other than good feelings. Does God
inform your morality? In what way? If he does not, do you need Him?
>"A man's ethical behavior should b
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| Re: Spam! [message #70027 is a reply to message #69980] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 01:00 |
steve the artguy
Messages: 308
Registered: June 2005
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Senior Member |
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course. Survive, don't survive, bake
>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
>>>> they do? All is permitted.
>>>>
>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The
>>>>>"Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical and
>>>>>effective
>>>>
>>>>>way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
>>>>
>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
>>>> rules".
>>>>
>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm fine
>with
>>>>
>>>>>the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can
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| Re: Spam! [message #70028 is a reply to message #70005] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 02:02 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
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Senior Member |
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be fun to
>say
>>>>
>>>>>"what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be honest here
>>>> --
>>>>>none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even then.
>And
>>>> I'm
>>>>>sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me. It's
>just
>>>>
>>>>>stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly backward
>
>>>>>human
>>>>
>>>>>societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been inspired
>by
>>>> a
>>>>>supreme being.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
>>>> themselves...
>>>>
>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
>>>> assumptions about existence.
>>>>
>
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| Re: Spam! [message #70033 is a reply to message #70011] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 08:04 |
neil[1]
Messages: 164
Registered: October 2006
|
Senior Member |
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|
Aug 2006 23:35:56 -0600, "Chris Latham"
<latham_c@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Elephant's Memory - Touching Story.
>
> In 1986, Mkele Mbembe was on holiday in Kenya after graduating
>from college. On a hike through the bush, he came across a young
>bull elephant standing with one leg raised in the air. The elephant seemed
>distressed so Mbembe approached it very carefully.
>
>He got down on one knee and inspected the elephant's foot, and
> found a large thorn deeply embedded in it. As carefully and as
>gently as he could, Mbembe worked the thorn out with his hunting
>knife, after which the elephant gingerly put down its foot.
>
>The elephant turned to face the man and with a rather stern look
>on its face, stared at him. For several tense moments Mbembe
>stood frozen, thinking of nothing else but being trampled.
>Eventually the elephant trumpeted loudly, turned and walked away.
> Mbembe never forgot that elephant or the events of that day.
>
>Twenty years later he was walking through a zoo with his teenaged
>son. As they approached the elephant enclosure, one of the
>creatures turned and walked over to near where Mbembe and his son Tapu
>were standing. The large bull elephant stared at Mbembe and lifted
>its front foot off the ground then put it down. The elephant did
>that several times then trumpeted loudly, all the while staring at the
>man.
>
>Remembering the encounter in 1986, Mbembe couldn't help
>wondering if this was the same elephant. Mbembe summoned up his courage,
>climbed over the railing and made his way into the enclosure. He walked
>right
>up to the elephant and stared back in wonder.
>
> Suddenly the elephant trumpeted again, wrapped its trunk around
>one of the man's legs and swung him wildly back and forth along
>the railing, killing him.
>
>Probably wasn't the same elephant.
>Hi Wayne, you still need a nice clean (no pace) Paris.exe?
Wayne Carson" <carson_wayne@msn.com> wrote in message news:44e33dfb@linux...
> Thanks Aaaron.
>
> Jim, I've tried to find antipace. Could you steer me
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| Re: Spam! [message #70039 is a reply to message #70019] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 14:15 |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
|
Member |
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about the
>>
>>>>potential consequences of this.
>>>>
>>>>But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another hour
that
>>I
>>>>could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by now
>>that
>>>>the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer clings
to
>>
>>>>them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again, beliefs
>>
>>>>are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs are
not
>>
>>>>wrong simply because they contradict yours.
>>>>
>>>>OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
>>>>
>>>>Sarah
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message news:44e23a46$1@linux...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>>>>>The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by faith.
>>>>>>(Speaking from personal experience).
>>>>>
>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call God
>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views are
>>>>> human at the source.
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
>>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and then
>>left
>>>>> it
>>>>>>up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than competition.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The
>>>>>>"Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical and
>>>>>>effective
>>>>>
>>>>>>way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
>>>>> rules".
>>>>>
>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
>>>>>
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| Re: Spam! [message #70040 is a reply to message #70011] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 14:17 |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
|
Member |
|
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/>
>>>>>
>>>>>>As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm fine
>>with
>>>>>
>>>>>>the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be fun to
>>say
>>>>>
>>>>>>"what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be honest
here
>>>>> --
>>>>>>none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even then.
>>And
>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me. It's
>>just
>>>>>
>>>>>>stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly backward
>>
>>>>>>human
>>>>>
>>>>>>societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been inspired
>>by
>>>>> a
>>>>>>supreme being.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
>>>>> themselves...
>>>>>
>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
>>>>> assumptions about existence.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead Iraqis
>>>>>>(conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile. What
>>do
>>>>> you
>>>>>>think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of brown
>>
>>>>>>rice?
>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists? 100?
>>>>> 500?
>>>>>>1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were innocent and
>&g
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| Re: Spam! [message #70041 is a reply to message #70033] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 14:20 |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
|
Member |
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t;
>>>>>>their
>>>>>
>>>>>>families.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded or maimed.
>>>>>
>>>>>>If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can think
>>of
>>>>> some
>>>>>>heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't, but it's
>>a
>>>>>
>>>>>>nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange jumpsuits
>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sarah
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in all
>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules, you
>>>>> would have to.
>>>>>
>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring themselves
>>to do
>>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
>>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
>>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
>>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
>>>>>
>>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
>>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
>>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms, to
kill
>>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
>>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
>>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
>>>>>
>>>>> DC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>That's right, continuing the staggering pace of release that brought us SEVEN
versions in TEN years, Debian will be getting another major upgrade this
December!
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/News/2006/20060 811
Now with a (completely useless) graphical installer! And boot time installation
of encrypted partitions!
TCBJamie,
Can you name even one instance wherein a population becaume Muslim by any
means other
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| Re: Spam! [message #70043 is a reply to message #70023] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 14:37 |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
|
Member |
|
|
hat oxymoron. Very creative. Lots
> of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
>
> I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of what
> you observed there illustrates the challenge we're talking about.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> DJ wrote:
> >> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
> > them?
> > Interesting that you should ask. there was recently a forum held at a
local
> > church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and
American
> > Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims whether
they
> > would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of
other
> > religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds before
the
> > Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and he
never
> > gave a straight answer.
> >
> >
> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e3f062@linux...
> >> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
> >> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing for
> >> disagreement.
> >>
> >> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the nightly
> >> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
> >>
> >> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to Durango
to
> >> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors concluded
> >> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on 'em!
> >>
> >> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
> > them?
> >> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people with
> >> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used and
> >> manipulated in the process.
> >>
> >> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
> >>
> >> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet. They're
> >> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -Jamie
> >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>
> >>
> >> DJ wrote:
> >>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about the
> >>>> nature of reality.
> >>> I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the
nightly
> > news
> >>> bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who is
> >>> justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think I'd
> > rather
> >>> be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife would
> > rather
> >>> die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Jamie K" <<
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| Re: Spam! [message #70045 is a reply to message #70028] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 14:44 |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
|
Member |
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|
, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to me.
> > If
> >>> you
> >>>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I believe
in
> >>>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
> >>>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
> > personally
> >>> do
> >>>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I see
> > no
> >>>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
> > claims.
> >>> I
> >>>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel
truly
> >>>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe
this
> >>>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very
superficial
> >>> and
> >>>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think
it's
> >>> silly
> >>>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in
the
> >>> sky."
> >>>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the
opposite,
> > my
> >>>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient
> > dogma
> >>> that
> >>>>> I have no reason to believe.
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| Re: Spam! [message #70046 is a reply to message #70039] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 14:43 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
/>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer
words:
> > I
> >>>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG
time
> >>> ago),
> >>>>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to
believe
> >>> that
> >>>>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and a
> >>> smattering
> >>>>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because it
> >>> claims
> >>>>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient
human
> >>> beings
> >>>>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible is
> > the
> >>>>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme
being.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you believe
in
> > a
> >>> way
> >>>>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know WHAT
> > you
> >>>>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some years.
> >>> What I
> >>>>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope?
Because
> >>> you
> >>>>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your
> > parents
> >>>>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because you
> >>> happened
> >>>>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been born
> > in
> >>>>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
> >>>>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does this
> >>> make
> >>>>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough of
a
> >>> threat
> >>>>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill
him?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to share
> > with
> >>>>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no right
or
> >>>>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in God,
> >>> Heaven,
> >>>>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to behave
> >>>>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually
> > on
> >>>>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis
is
> >>>>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
> > restrained
> >>> by
> >>>>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert
Einstein
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because the
> >>> evil of
> >>>>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about
> > what
> >>> has
> >>>>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
> > believe
> >>>>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about
the
> >>>>> potential consequences of this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another hour
> >>> that I
> >>>>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by
now
> >>> that
> >>>>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer clings
> > to
> >>>>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again,
> >>> beliefs
> >>>>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs are
> > not
> >>>>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sarah
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "DC" <Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Spam! [message #70052 is a reply to message #70046] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 22:00 |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
|
Member |
|
|
ef="http://www.JamieKrutz.com" target="_blank">http://www.JamieKrutz.com
DJ wrote:
> Jamie,
>
> Can you name even one instance wherein a population becaume Muslim by any
> means other than military conquest?
>
> Deej
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e40472@linux...
>> It's all retaliatory. That's the beauty of the Hatfield/McCoy vicious
> cycle.
>> We retaliated against Iraq for 9/11, even though Iraq was not involved
>> in the attack.
>>
>> No problem, we created a new policy of preemptive retaliation!
>> Preemptive retaliation, think about that oxymoron. Very creative. Lots
>> of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
>>
>> I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of what
>> you observed there illustrates the challenge we're talking about.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
>>> them?
>>> Interesting that you should ask. there was recently a forum held at a
> local
>>> church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and
> American
>>> Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims whether
> they
>>> would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of
> other
>>> religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds before
> the
>>> Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and he
> never
>>> gave a straight answer.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e3f062@linux...
>>>> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
>>>> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing for
>>>> disagreement.
>>>>
>>>> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the nightly
>>>> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
>>>>
>>>> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to Durango
> to
>>>> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors concluded
>>>> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on 'em!
>>>>
>>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
>>> them?
>>>> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people with
>>>> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used and
>>>> manipulated in the process.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
>>>>
>>>> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet. They're
>>>> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about the
>>>>>> nature of reality.
>>>>> I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the
> nightly
>>> news
>>>>> bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who is
>>>>> justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think I'd
>>> rather
>>>>> be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife would
>>> rather
>>>>> die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> news:44e3ae02@linux...
>>>>>> One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive
>>> dialog
>>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about the
>>>>>> nature of reality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Great post, Sarah.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>>>> (heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I
>>> learned
>>>>>>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel
>>> compelled
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently
>>> wrong
>>>
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| Re: Spam! [message #70053 is a reply to message #70048] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 22:04 |
macle
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2006
|
Member |
|
|
>> in
>>>>>>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still trying
>>> to
>>>>> view
>>>>>>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to call
>>>>> "me."
>>>>>>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant.
> Faith
>>> is
>>>>>>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not
>>> rest
>>>>> on
>>>>>>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own
> definition
>>>>> if
>>>>>>> you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to me.
>>> If
>>>>> you
>>>>>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I believe
> in
>>>>>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
>>>>>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
>>> personally
>>>>> do
>>>>>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I see
>>> no
>>>>>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
>>> claims.
>>>>> I
>>>>>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel
> truly
>>>>>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe
> this
>>>>>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very
> superficial
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think
> it's
>>&
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| Re: Spam! [message #70087 is a reply to message #70053] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 08:52 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
you gonna do
>>> about
>>>>>>> them?
>>>>>>> Interesting that you should ask. there was recently a forum held at
> a
>>>>> local
>>>>>>> church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and
>>>>> American
>>>>>>> Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims
>>> whether
>>>>> they
>>>>>>> would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of
>>>>> other
>>>>>>> religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds
> before
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and
> he
>>>>> never
>>>>>>> gave a straight answer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>> news:44e3f062@linux...
>>>>>>>> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
>>>>>>>> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing
>>> for
>>>>>>>> disagreement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the
>>> nightly
>>>>>>>> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to
> Durango
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors
>>> concluded
>>>>>>>> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on
> 'em!
>>>>>>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do
>>> about
>>>>>>> them?
>>>>>>>> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people
>>> with
>>>>>>>> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used
>>> and
>>>>>>>> manipulated in the process.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet.
> They're
>>>>>>>> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> b
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| Re: Spam! [message #70094 is a reply to message #70087] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 09:38 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
rld. Scary huh?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and
> > then
> >>>>> left
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
> >>> competition.
> >>>>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
> >>>>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
> >>>>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
> >>>>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical
and
> >>>>>>>>> effective
> >>>>>>>>> way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
> >>>>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
> >>>>>>>> rules".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
> >>>>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm
> > fine
> >>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be
fun
> > to
> >>>>> say
> >>>>>>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be
honest
> >>>>> here
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even
> > then.
> >>>>> And
> >>>>>>>> I'm
> >>>>>>>>> sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me.
> >>> It's
> >>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
> >>> backward
> >>>>>>>>> human
> >>>>>>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or ma
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| Re: Spam! [message #70095 is a reply to message #70094] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 10:21 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
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y not have been
> >>> inspired
> >>>>> by
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> supreme being.
> >>>>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
> >>>>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
> >>>>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
> >>>>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
> >>>>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
> >>>>>>>> themselves...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
> >>>>>>>> assumptions about existence.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead
> > Iraqis
> >>>>>>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile.
> > What
> >>>>> do
> >>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>> think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of
> >>> brown
> >>>>>>>>> rice?
> >>>>>>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists?
> >>> 100?
> >>>>>>>> 500?
> >>>>>>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were
innocent
> >>> and
> >>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>> families.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded
or
> >>>>> maimed.
> >>>>>>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can
> > think
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't,
but
> >>> it's
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
> >>> jumpsuits
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sarah
> >>>>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
> >>>>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in
all
> >>>>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
> >>>>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules,
you
> >>>>>>>> would have to.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring
> > themselves
> >>> to
> >>>
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| Re: Spam! [message #70102 is a reply to message #70042] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 14:00 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
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>> memorial to victims of Katrina - one that includes a cross. The land is
>> private as is the funding, but as it is in public view, the ACLU is taking
>> issue. If we exercise equality of "rights" would that not give me the right
>> as a Christian to file suit against an adult nightclub for a billboard
>> promoting topless dancing, with suggestive photos? No, that would violate
>> the owner's right to free speech, and others' opinion of what is
>> "suggestive" and whether that could "suggest" anything objectionable for
>> anyone. What is the difference? A cross isn't going to tempt anyone to get
>> drunk, spend money that should be going to support a family, or worst case,
>> rape a woman (really worst case, not a statistical norm that I know of, at
>> least hope not) - it is actually more likely to cause the exact opposite,
>> but yet it is becoming a more common source of public outcry than crime
>> rates or corporate corruption.
>>
>> My prediction is that Christian churches will start being targeted by the
>> ACLU and other "rights" groups not wanting structures of any kind that
>> promote Christianity in public view. And it wouldn't be much of a leap from
>> there to having something as simple as praying over one's meal in public
>> become grounds for dismissal from a restaurant, if not legal or criminal
>> action. Sure, that's extrapolation, but that may give you a bit of insight
>> into why there seems to be more of a push by Christians to get Christians
>> involved in political issues - not to take over or dictate, but to protect
>> the freedom we are also supposed to be allowed. There are other examples of
>> how this trend is progressing, bu
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