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| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71353 is a reply to message #71343] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 06:29   |
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Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
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l
>>>>>>> speech, the day after September 11, at Bavaria’s University of
>>>>>>> Regensberg, Pope Benedict describes Christian belief in a God
>>>>>>> whose words and acts are bound by reason, truth and the law of
>>>>>>> non-contradiction. Benedict contrasts this with Islamic belief
>>>>>>> in a God not bound by anything—including his own words. Benedict
>>>>>>> further contrasts Christian belief with that of secular humanists
>>>>>>> who see reason as being completely unbound of God.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In response, both Islamists and secularists have demanded the
>>>>>>> Pope apologize. Benedict’s speech is a work of enlightened
>>>>>>> genius. He has clearly laid out the differences between
>>>>>>> Christian culture and Islamic culture and the basis of the clash
>>>>>>> of civilizations we now experience as the War on Terror. His
>>>>>>> analysis also explains the underlying cause of the alliance
>>>>>>> between the western Left and the Islamofascist Right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Islamist reaction focuses on one sentence in the speech.
>>>>>>> Reaching back to 1391, Benedict quotes Byzantine Emperor Manuel
>>>>>>> II: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there
>>>>>>> you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command
>>>>>>> to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Four days later, according to AP: “Pakistan's legislature
>>>>>>> unanimously condemned Pope Benedict XVI. Lebanon's top Shiite
>>>>>>> cleric demanded an apology. And in Turkey, the ruling party
>>>>>>> likened the pontiff to Hitler and Mussolini and accused him of
>>>>>>> reviving the mentality of the Crusades.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “Across the Islamic world Friday, Benedict's remarks on Islam and
>>>>>>> jihad in a speech in Germany unleashed a torrent of rage that
>>>>>>> many fear could burst into violent protests like those that
>>>>>>> followed publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reuters quoted other sources expressing fears for the Pope’s
>>>>>>> safety and even fear of an attack on Vatican City.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Islamist reaction proves Manuel II’s 600-year-old point. The
>>>>>>> reaction is not one of anger but a calculated attempt to force
>>>>>>> the Pope to parrot the PC line on Islam. Since Islam need not be
>>>>>>> internally consistent and it is not bound by reason, it’s only
>>>>>>> objective can be to assert the power of a God who is so
>>>>>>> transcendent that He is not bound by anything. If man is created
>>>>>>> in God’s image then by extension Islamic man is not bound by
>>>>>>> anything. (This explains the predilection on the part of some
>>>>>>> Muslims to lie.) Islamists are not responding to any ‘offense’ to
>>>>>>> their non-existent morality. They are asserting the only
>>>>>>> ‘morality’ they have—the will to power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “Will to Power” is a key element of Nietzsche ’s philosophy—hence
>>>>>>> the root of the term, Islamofascist. Moreover the Western “Left’
>>>>>>> is today guided far more by Nietzsche existentialist thought than
>>>>>>> by Marxist thought—hence the alliance between the Western “Left”
>>>>>>> and the Islamofascist ‘Right.’
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reuters quotes an Indian Muslim leader doing precisely what
>>>>>>> Manuel II said they would: “Syed Ahmed Bukhari, the chief cleric
>>>>>>> of New Delhi's historic Jama Masjid, India's largest mosque,
>>>>>>> extolled Muslims to ‘respond in a manner which forces the Pope to
>>>>>>> apologize.’” Note they intend to use “force” not reason.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reuters quotes an unnamed diplomat pointing out the Pope was,
>>>>>>> “calling a spade a spade”.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The secularist mouthpiece, New York Times,editorializes, “Pope
>>>>>>> Benedict XVI has insulted Muslims….” This is false. The Pope’s
>>>>>>> description of the Islamic God as being unbound by reason is not
>>>>>>> an insult, it is an Islamic article of faith. What Muslims and
>>>>>>> secularists fear is the Pope’s decision to choose to enter
>>>>>>> dialogue asserting his belief in Christianity. How dare he not
>>>>>>> “apologize” for being a Christian? That is the so-called
>>>>>>> “insult.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One might “reasonably” ask when will Muslims “apologize” for
>>>>>>> being Muslim? But they are not bound by reason to the point is
>>>>>>> lost on them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Amazingly the Times continues: “Muslim leaders the world over
>>>>>>> have demanded apologies… For many Muslims, holy war — jihad — is
>>>>>>> a spiritual struggle, and not a call to violence.” In saying
>>>>>>> this, the Times implicitly recognizes the Islamists are waging a
>>>>>>> propaganda jihad against the Pope and by extension against
>>>>>>> Christianity—and they explicitly endorse and join this jihad.
>>>>>>> The Times is saying to Islamists, ‘we can join your ‘spiritual’
>>>>>>> jihad, but not your violent jihad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Times editors are living in a fool’s paradise. The
>>>>>>> “spiritual” non-violent jihad of propaganda is merely the flip
>>>>>>> side of the violent jihad. Nowhere is that more clear than in
>>>>>>> the Islamist reaction to the Pope.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the Pope scheduled to visit Turkey in November the Islamists
>>>>>>> are rejecting any apology from Vatican spokespersons and demand
>>>>>>> to hear from the Pope himself. This would place raging mobs of
>>>>>>> semi-literate Islamist thugs in the position of forcing the
>>>>>>> leader of Christendom to bow before them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In this demand for submission they are joined by the secularist
>>>>>>> mouthpiece. In its September 16 edition the Times editorializes:
>>>>>>> “He needs to offer a deep and persuasive apology…” The
>>>>>>> secularists too seek the Pope’s submission. Like the Islamists,
>>>>>>> the secularists are driven only by their will to power. While
>>>>>>> the Islamists represent their demented version of
>>>>>>> God--unrestrained by reason, the secularists represent their
>>>>>>> demented version of reason--unrestrained by God. They are united
>>>>>>> by their self-worshipping world view.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It should be noted that the carefully staged “anger’ from the
>>>>>>> Islamic world does not condemn Benedict’s characterization of
>>>>>>> Islam as a religion where God’s “will is not bound up with any of
>>>>>>> our categories, even that of rationality...(The Islamic) God is
>>>>>>> not bound even by his own word….” This is not seen as an insult.
>>>>>>> Islam embraces this description. In offering this description of
>>>>>>> Islam, Benedict refers to the views of leading modern French
>>>>>>> Islamist R. Arnaldez as discussed in the writings of Professor
>>>>>>> Theodore Khoury of Munster.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Likewise the secularists express no dismay at the pope’s
>>>>>>> characterization of a secularist as: “(A) subject (who) then
>>>>>>> decides, on the basis of his experiences, what he considers
>>>>>>> tenable in matters of religion, and the subjective ‘conscience’
>>>>>>> becomes the sole arbiter of what is ethical.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Benedict asserts that without reason, or without God, there can
>>>>>>> be no modern system of morality. He explains, “In this
>>>>>>> way…ethics and religion lose their power to create a community
>>>>>>> and become (instead) a completely personal matter.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both Islamist and secularist seek to break God and reason apart.
>>>>>>> Each claims superiority over the Christian West. They believe
>>>>>>> absolute moral license makes them powerful. As globalization
>>>>>>> carries the Western tradition of reason throughout the world,
>>>>>>> both are in decline.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where the force of reason is defeated, Islamist and secularist
>>>>>>> will meet in combat, just as Hitler’s fascists broke their pact
>>>>>>> with the Soviet Union, invading in June, 1941 after the collapse
>>>>>>> of the allied forces on the western front.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What the Islamists and the New York Times both fear is having to
>>>>>>> reply to the Pope’s key point, borrowed from the Byzantine
>>>>>>> Emperor: “‘Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos (word or
>>>>>>> reason) is contrary to the nature of God,’.… It is to this great
>>>>>>> logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in
>>>>>>> the dialogue of cultures.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Their fear of reason can only lead the world to disaster.
>>>>>>>
>>>
>
>There you go, clearly faith is not limited to religion. Although just as
clearly it's important for religion.
As to risk, many people have faith that their risks will pan out. Some
people do things because they have such faith. I know people like that.
I am people like that. That doesn't preclude anyone from doing something
for some other reason, of course.
If you want to say you don't have faith in anything, using any of the
definitions below, then that's your prerogative and I don't have a
problem with that.
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
TCB wrote:
> Here's dictionary.com
>
> faith  /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth]
> Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
> –noun
> 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
> 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would
> be substantiated by fact.
> 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith
> of the Pilgrims.
> 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to
> be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
> 5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
> 6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement,
> etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
> 7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance,
> etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
> 8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through
> Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
>
> I don't see anything in there about risk. My point is that people can do
> the things you're talking about knowing full well they might fail, but do
> them anyway. That's taking a risk, not having faith. I don't have faith but
> I've taken lots of personal and professional risks in my life.
>
> TCB
>
> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>> We can disagree about that but the first line is the dictionary definition.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> TCB wrote:
>>> You're confusing 'faith' with 'a willingness to take risks.' Animals take
>>> risks, to get food, create more animals, etc., but I doubt they have faith.
>>> One needs no faith to start businesses, invest money, get married, etc.
>
>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>> Faith is complete trust or confidence in something or someone. Religious
>>>> faith is one form of faith but not the only definition of "faith."
>>>>
>>>> For example I have faith that if I drop a guitar pick it will find its
>
>>>> way to the floor based on the gravitational attraction it has to the
>
>>>> planet. I have faith that I'll breathe my next breath, that I'll see
>
>>>> tomorrow morning. I have faith that other people are put together much
>
>>>> like I am and that I can therefore relate to other folks.
>>>>
>>>> Without faith, people would not invest money. Without faith people would
>>>> not vote. Without faith people would not start businesses, hire other
>
>>>> people, raise children. Without faith people would not ride trains, fly
>>>> in planes or drive cars. Without faith no one would investigate
>>>> scientific questions about reality.
>>>>
>>>> While you can clearly have faith without religion, you cannot have
>>>> religion without faith. Religion depends on faith that one or more
>>>> deities (good and sometimes bad) exist, that their associated stories
>
>>>> actually occurred, and often, that there is some sort of afterlife.
>>>>
>>>> However, religious people believe in a variety of different deities.
>
>>>> Even those who believe in the same deity disagree, sometimes violently,
>>>> about the nature of their deity. Religions sometimes even disagree about
>>>> the nature of reality. If you want to base morality strictly on
>>>> religion, and you look around, you'll notice that religion can be a
>>>> somewhat chaotic basis unless...
>>>>
>>>> Ah, you might say, I want to base morality on MY religion. Well, you
>
>>>> just dissed the majority of religions. No problem because THEY ARE
>>>> WRONG. And people who believe in those religions may just be saying the
>>>> same thing about you and your religion. For those religions who are not
>>>> tolerant of other ideas, you may just have started a war.
>>>>
>>>> So perhaps it's BETTER, in our time, to have a system of justice that
> is
>>>> NOT based on a religion. But one which guarantees everyone the right
> to
>>>> practice the religion of their choice, guarantees other freedoms such
> as
>>>> we in the USA do in our Bill of Rights, encourages honesty and
>>>> integrity, while enforcing some common sense limits such as no human
>
>>>> sacrifices, a minimum age for marriage, no incest, no slavery, no
>>>> murder, no rape, no stealing, those sorts of things.
>>>>
>>>> What is viewed as morality beyond a fair justice system and common sense
>>>> rules of behavior can be left to each freely chosen religion to sort
>
>>>> out, like whether to restrict diet in some way, whether to wear a
>>>> certain type of clothing, how to pray, etc. But none of these additional
>>>> practices should be imposed on society as a whole.
>>>>
>>>> The Golden Rule may also be of use as a basic moral foundation.
>>>>
>>>> So yes, you can have a moral system, one that BTW protects the freedom
>
>>>> to practice religious beliefs (or not), without basing it on any one
>
>>>> religion. And it can protect all religions better than a system based
> on
>>>> any one religion (AKA a theocracy).
>>>>
>>>> There are other issues surrounding religions, such as the many examples
>>>> of selfless dedication to helping others on the one hand, and hijacked
>
>>>> religions used to legitimize earthly power structures in other cases.
>
>>>> Dedric, I look forward to talking with you about the positives and
>>>> negatives of various religions, and where a moral culture ought to go
>
>>> >from here, whenever we next get together.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dedric Terry wrote:
>>>>> Hey Jimmy,
>>>>>
>>>>> No doubt one can be a good person without believing in God - there are
>>> tons
>>>>> of great people with no faith, or very little. That in and of itself
>>> tells
>>>>> me there must be a God so even non-believers would have a strong sense
>>> of
>>>>> right and wrong on a societal and even global level.
>>>>>
>>>>> To walk through some thoughts: with no God, or higher reference point,
>>> what
>>>>> would be considered moral, or at least good? What would one use to
> decide
>>>>> what is right and wrong?
>>>>>
>>>>> Laws? Most would agree that we can't legislate morality now, so with
>>> no
>>>>> basis for what morality is, why would we even bother with laws since
>>>>> everyone would make their own choices anyway?
>>>>>
>>>>> Intellect? That would simply depend on what one chose to accept as
>>>>> "intelligent" thought, based completely on opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reasoning and Logic? Logic is determined by a hypothesis that has a
> proven
>>>>> outcome in a given situation. Change the situation, and the reasoning
>>> or
>>>>> logic behind the "right" or "wrong" could easily change.
>>>>>
>>>>> Experience? What if one's experience is filled with hatred, abuse,
> anger
>>>>> and violence, or worse? Then someone would have to decide whose experience
>>>>> we would use as a reference point. There would be no guarantee that
>
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| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71354 is a reply to message #71353] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 07:01 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
person
>>>>> or persons had experiences that would be best for the good of the whole.
>>>>>
>>>>> Survival instinct? If it were a reference point, then stealing, lying,
>>>>> cheating and even killing would be perfectly justified as those can
> be
>>> means
>>>>> of survival.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would right and wrong even exist? I would think that the differences
>>>>> between societies' definitions of right and wrong, assuming societies
>>> even
>>>>> existed, would be so drastic we would never have ventured into any form
>>> of
>>>>> inter-cultural/inter-geographic interaction, much less relationships,
>>>>> diplomacy, collaboration, trade, and open travel.
>>>>>
>>>>> As long as "morals" are only relative to each individual, they aren't
>>>>> absolute morals that would last longer than the time it takes to make
>>> the
>>>>> choice. We would just have 6.5 billion opinions. There would only
> be
>>> an
>>>>> ever changing perspective on what seems to "make sense" at the time,
> and
>>>>> based on this premise, even "making sense" would vary from person to
> person,
>>>>> day to day, minute to minute. In that case, our prisons would either
>>> be
>>>>> filled with innocent people simply judged "wrong" at the time because
>>> their
>>>>> choices didn't match the preferences of the majority; or we wouldn't
> have
>>>>> prisons, or likely even organized societies.
>>>>>
>>>>> But is the majority always right? How would we know if there were no
>>>>> absolutes that supercede the majority in some form?
>>>>>
>>>>> If there were no right and wrong, there would be no consequences of
> either,
>>>>> or at least we wouldn't view the outcome as a good or bad consequence
>>> - it
>>>>> would just be another event in time.
>>>>>
>>>>> But by grace and as a gift of freedom, God gave us a choice, both in
> whether
>>>>> to believe in Him and whether to make right or wrong decisions. With
>>> moral
>>>>> absolutes (God's word) as a reference we have a way to evaluate drastically
>>>>> differing situations on an equivalent basis; with consistency in reasoning
>>>>> and compassion; by choice and instinct rather than puppetry. Even when
>>> we
>>>>> choose to do wrong, He is willing to forgive us. Without that option
>>> to
>>>>> choose, balanced by God's grace and forgiveness, there would be no power
>>> in
>>>>> choosing to believe in Him. That's what makes God a personal and loving
>>> God
>>>>> rather than a dictator or puppet master.
>>>>>
>>>>> Odd as it may seem to anyone who doesn't believe, I can see God in the
>>> way
>>>>> that 1) we as a group of intelligent people on this forum can discuss
>>>>> completely opposing opinions and still care enough to consider insulting,
>>>>> belittling, slandering and hating one another an intolerable concept;
>>> and 2)
>>>>> in all likelihood agree that peace and compassion completely trump greed
>>> and
>>>>> power in importance to life and survival together on this planet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/17/06 7:12 PM, in article 450df091@linux, "Uptown Jimmy"
>>>>> <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea that one needs to believe in a god in order to have a strong
>>> morals
>>>>>> is absurd, I think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jimmy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:C1325038.358D%dterry@keyofd.net...
>>>>>>> Gene -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You probably didn't realize it (so no offense), but your response
> pretty
>>>>>>> much confirms my assertion that the tendency of our country and even
>>> the
>>>>>>> world society, is to place blame for religious conflict, violence
> and
>>>>>>> religiously motivated terrorism anywhere but with the single largest
>>>>>>> growing, and currently most violent religion in the world. We ignore
>>> car
>>>>>>> bombings, suicide bombers, torched churches, thousands of tortured
> and
>>>>>>> murdered, exiled and ostracized people in favor of blaming the
>>>>>>> administration for anything and everything, as if Bush made the Pope
>>> quote
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> Byzantine emperor by going to war in Iraq.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Islam isn't the passive, peaceful, non-threatening, all-accepting
> religion
>>>>>>> our country seems to blindly want to believe. Some western Muslims
>>> might
>>>>>>> be, but just ask anyone who tried to believe in anything else in many
>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> conservative Islamic countries of the world. I know, have talked
> to,
>>> and
>>>>>>> have heard missionaries to these countries speak - it's a different
>>> world
>>>>>>> from the free discussions and widely varying opinions we have here.
>>>>>> People
>>>>>>> die for converting to anything else, or their families do. At best,
>>> their
>>>>>>> families disown them and they sneak out of the country under threat
>>> of
>>>>>>> death. In fact it's the exact opposite of the "freedom" our country
>>>>>>> continually pushes the limits of. Odd that we would turn on our own
>>>>>> country
>>>>>>> in favor of supporting, or at least turning a blind eye to this kind
>>> of
>>>>>>> ideology, somehow believing that is the more politically correct thing
>>> to
>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem I see isn't religion, but a lack of faith in God, and
> hence
>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> sense of direction and moral guidance. God gives us the choice to
> believe
>>>>>>> or not. Based on documents of their activities - in the name of Allah
>>> the
>>>>>>> 9/11 terrorists pretty much broke every one of the 10 commandments
> in
>>> 24
>>>>>>> hours. That may seem a trivial or even silly fact, but there is a
> sad,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> frightening irony there. Faith in God isn't what one should fear
> -
>>> it's
>>>>>>> believing in anything that conveniently appeases one's personal whims
>>> that
>>>>>>> is the true danger.... the terrorists proved that in one day. That
>>> also
>>>>>>> includes believing in nothing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As Blaise Pascal once said (paraphrased): if one believes in God and
>>> is
>>>>>>> wrong, at worst one has lived a good live and had some false hope
> as
>>> a
>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>> of comfort along the way; if one doesn't believe and is wrong, then
>>> at
>>>>>>> best, all is lost for eternity. This is the paradox that we should
>>> be
>>>>>>> considering, and yet the most fear-inducing thought is that the President
>>>>>>> might believe in something other than nothing. Is no belief really
>>> better
>>>>>>> than belief? What reference point for right and wrong accompanies
>>>>>> disbelief
>>>>>>> in anything higher than one's own decisions? What reference point
> for
>>>>>>> respect for other people's beliefs accompanies a lack of belief in
> any
>>>>>>> guideline for living life and having respect and compassion for others?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It isn't the administration's fault that the Pope quoted a guy Islam
>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>> like just because he called like he saw it - something we do on this
>>> forum
>>>>>>> every single day, ironically. It also isn't Christianity's intent
> to
>>> take
>>>>>>> over the world, or the government. Far from it. The only goal is
> to
>>> give
>>>>>>> people a chance to decide. Yet, those that want to decide to not
> believe
>>>>>>> would rather take that right away and remove Christianity from public
>>>>>> view.
>>>>>>> The only way to force someone to remove their belief from public in
>>> a
>>>>>>> country that promotes the freedom to believe as one wishes, is to
> outlaw
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>> Yet another paradox.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Through our short sighted political glasses we want to see the world
>>> as a
>>>>>>> black and white, free-will, partisan vote where one's party always
> wins
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> the decisions are always in our favor, but fail to see any validity
>>> in
>>>>>>> believing a God that gave us the very moral compass to maintain the
>>>>>> balance
>>>>>>> that kind of choice affords us. In essence we put our trust in the
>>> very
>>>>>>> thing we prove day in and day out to be one of the most fallible
>>>>>>> characteristics of humanity - political and relativistic ideology.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess I ignored my own first comment....sorry about that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I should get back to mourning NI Battery 2's destruction of 10 hours
>>> of
>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> :-((....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/16/06 9:09 PM, in article 450cbc70$1@linux, "gene Lennon"
>>>>>>> <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I don't want to start another religious or political thread -...
>>>>>>>> These are frightening times. While the true neocons in the current
>>>>>>>> administration
>>>>>>>> have had a variety of political, financial and power-based reasons
>>> for
>>>>>>>> perusing
>>>>>>>> the war against Iraq, the president has had an even scarier motivation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Religion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you missed it, this week Bush has announced the "Third Great
>>>>>> Awakening"
>>>>>>>> of the international religious struggle. This is a good thing as
> he
>>> sees
>>>>>>>> it and it has been partially brought on by the new fight against
>>>>>> terrorists
>>>>>>>> (Translation - Due to his good work in God's name). A war that he
>>>>>> depicts
>>>>>>>> as "a confrontation between good and evil."
>>>>>>>> In 2001 he used the word "crusade" and got into quite a bit of trouble
>>>>>> (as
>>>>>>>> has the Pope), but he seems to have the gloves off now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can anyone imagine a worse direction for the world to be headed?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course he also believes in the Rapture, so things could easily
> go
>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> hill from here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More on the "Third Awakening":
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09 /12/AR2006091201
>>>>>> 59
>>>>>>>> 4_pf.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>
>>>> `
>Fiber networks rock. I'm wondering though, when will this all hit a phase
where a guy has to get a variance just to run his network :)
AA
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
news:450ec8f5@linux...
>A Chip That Can Transfer Data Using Laser Light
>
> By JOHN MARKOFF
> Published: September 18, 2006
>
> SAN FRANCISCO, Sept. 17 - Researchers plan to announce on Monday that they
> have created a silicon-based chip that can produce laser beams. The
> advance
> will make it possible to use laser light rather than wires to send data
> between chips, removing the most significant bottleneck in computer
> design.
>
> The development is a result of research at Intel, the world's largest chip
> maker, and the University of California, Santa Barbara. Commercializing
> the
> new technology may not happen before the end of the decade, but the
> prospect
> of being able to place hundreds or thousands of data-carrying light beams
> on
> standard industry chips is certain to shake up both the communications and
> computer industries.
>
> Lasers are already used to transmit high volumes of computer data over
> longer distances - for example, between offices, cities and across
> oceans -
> using fiber optic cables. But in computer chips, data moves at great speed
> over the wires inside, then slows to a snail's pace when it is sent
> chip-to-chip inside a computer.
>
> With the barrier removed, computer designers will be able to rethink
> computers, packing chips more densely both in home systems and in giant
> data
> centers. Moreover, the laser-silicon chips - composed of a spider's web of
> laser light in addition to metal wires - portend a vastly more powerful
> and
> less expensive national computing infrastructure. For a few dollars
> apiece,
> such chips could transmit data at 100 times the speed of laser-based
> communications equipment, called optical transceivers, that typically cost
> several thousand dollars.
>
> Currently fiber optic networks are used to transmit data to individual
> neighborhoods in cities where the data is then distributed by slower
> conventional wire-based communications gear. The laser chips will make it
> possible to send avalanches of data to and from individual homes at far
> less
> cost.
>
> They could also give rise to a new class of supercomputers that could
> share
> data internally at speeds not possible today.
>
> The breakthrough was achieved by bonding a layer of light-emitting indium
> phosphide onto the surface of a standard silicon chip etched with special
> channels that act as light-wave guides. The resulting sandwich has the
> potential to create on a computer chip hundreds and possibly thousands of
> tiny, bright lasers that can be switched on and off billions of times a
> second.
>
> "This is a field that has just begun exploding in the past 18 months,"
> said
> Eli Yablonovitch, a physicist at the University of California, Los
> Angeles,
> a leading researcher in the field. "There is going to be a lot more
> optical
> communications in computing than people have thought."
>
> Indeed, the results of the development work, which will be reported in a
> coming issue of Optics Express, an international journal, indicate that a
> high-stakes race is under way worldwide. While the researchers at Intel
> and
> Santa Barbara are betting on indium phosphide, Japanese scientists in a
> related effort are pursuing a different material, the chemical element
> erbium.
>
> Although commercial chips with built-in lasers are years away, Luxtera, a
> company in Carlsbad, Calif., is already selling test chips that
> incorporate
> most optical components directly into silicon and then inject laser light
> from a separate source.
>
> The Intel-Santa Barbara work proves that it is possible to make complete
> photonic devices using standard chip-making machinery, although not
> entirely
> out of silicon. "There has always been this final hurdle," said Mario
> Paniccia, director of the Photonics Technology Lab at Intel. "We have now
> come up with a solution that optimizes both sides."
>
> In the past it has proved impossible to couple standard silicon with the
> exotic materials that emit light when electrically charged. But the
> university team supplied a low-temperature bonding technique that does not
> melt the silicon circuitry. The approach uses an electrically charged
> oxygen
> gas to create a layer of oxide just 25 atoms thick on each material. When
> heated and pressed together, the oxide layer fuses the two materials into
> a
> single chip that conducts information both through wires and on beams of
> reflected light.
>
> "Photonics has been a low-volume cottage industry," said John E. Bowers,
> director of the Multidisciplinary Optical Switching Technology Center at
> the
> University of California, Santa Barbara. "Everything will change and laser
> communications will be everywhere, including fiber to the home."
>
> Photonics industry experts briefed on the technique said that it would
> almost certainly pave the way for commercialization of the long-sought
> convergence of silicon chips and optical lasers. "Before, there was more
> hype than substance," said Alan Huang, a former Bell Laboratories
> researcher
> who is a pioneer in the field and is now chief technology officer of the
> Terabit Corporation, a photonics start-up company in Menlo Park, Calif.
> "Now
> I believe this will lead to future applications in optoelectronics
>
> If I don't have one of these by next week, I will die......
>
> ;o)
>
>Dude, that is so in line with my thoughts on organized religion that you
might be a long lost brother. As a kid I spent a lot of time in a small town
church were I was told that God was, essentially, a must-fear mean old man
type. I haven't spent a lot of time near that particular sect since I was
able to 'not' be around it. I'm not too sure about all these 'we welcome all
thinking and religion as ok" types either. There's got to be some kind of
middle ground theology out there, I just haven't found it yet.
AA
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:450f2278$1@linux...
>
> Tony,
>
> I think you did pretty well, actually.
>
> "Which God to follow" can be a sincere question, as in:
> "it makes sense to me that God would have a plan for our lives and
> wants the best for us, and I need to know who God really is"
>
> or it can be rhetoric, from a clear atheist position, as in:
> "well, there's a god over here and there's a god over there, and
> another one in Boston, and how are we to know which god is the
> right one?"
>
> and the person really believes in no God whatsover.
>
> The difference is important because if one believes in a creator,
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71355 is a reply to message #71354] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 07:49 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
it is
> reasonable to assume that the creator is interested in him as well.
> This, at least is the Christian position, and the Bible and certainly the
>
> life of Christ centers on the issue of "who cares about humans
> anyway?"
>
> Well, John 3:16 answers that doesn't it, and while secularist
> reasoning can be shown to be utterly self-referential and even
> irrational, in the end spiritual things are spiritually discerned and if
>
> someone simply wishes to dispute, they may do so, forever.
>
> So, as a Christian, believing that Jesus came to save me, and that
> the Bible narrative, while not perfect in the details, nonetheless
> contains His story. I would say on that basis, that the God of the
> Bible is the right one, and I would say that the muslims are mistaken
> and do not serve God at all. "By their fruits you will know them"
>
> *However* there is the obvious case of the righteous Muslim,
> Buddhist, Hindu etc. I do believe that the imprint of our creation
> exists in all of us, granting even the atheist a conscience, despite
> their basic antipathy to absolutes. Beyond that, I also believe that
> God turns no one away, so there is the mystery of those who
> seek God in their own culture and their own religion, clearly *finding*
> Him!
>
>
> We are responsible for what we know, not what the other guy knows.
>
> That doesn't make faiths all equal or the same.
>
> BTW, the case can be made that ANY theistic belief is superior
> to atheism and neo-darwinism, simply because it gives at least some
> basis for universal morality.
>
> What about the righteous atheist? Well, there are a few of these,
> and I think some of them have been called by God to do good despite their
> ideology and that thing they follow that they call
> "conscience" is in reality the Holy Spirit and they may be saved
> on the basis of their reaction to that voice of God. I also think that
> denominations generally thoroughly *suck* (good theological
> term eh?) and have driven away many righteous people who live
> without religion in a righteous manner. I do believe they are all
> called to join the rest of us at some point, but I will not pretend
> to judge them, nor Hindus, Muslims etc on when that is.
>
> Brain Welch (Head) from Korn became a Christian a while back, and
> evidently has a new tune called "Religion Must Die" and I think he
> has a point. Take a look at his new site. I like the music.
>
> http://www.headtochrist.com/
>
> Of course, whatever emerges from the death of religion, even if it
> is the most dynamic Christian community since the 1st century,
> will be called 'religion' by the secularists who so dominate our
> culture, so it's semantics to some extent.
>
> DC
>
>
>
>
> "Tony Benson" <tony@standinghampton.com> wrote:
>>Hi Don,
>>
>>I'm not in the same league with you to debate theology. I'll try to state
> my
>>feelings in the most coherent way, but it will be, at best, clumsy. The
>
>>problem, from my point of view, with relying on "God" to dictate morality
> is
>>that every different religion believes their God is the one true God (or
>
>>God's in some cases). Evidently, fundamentalist Islam's God says it's
>>completely moral and beyond that, an Islamic's duty to kill infidels. So,
>
>>who's God's morals should all of mankind follow. You say yours. They say
>
>>theirs. I can only follow what I believe to be true in my own heart. I
>>feel
>
>>that I can still have faith in something beyond myself (God) and faith
>>that
>
>>for what ever reason, I have the ability to sense right from wrong.
>>Perhaps
>
>>the one true God gave us that ability.? Obviously people do say "who
>>cares"
>
>>to the accepted social moral standards all the time. If not, we wouldn't
>
>>have any murder, theft, rape, etc. But by and large, I think the majority
> of
>>people know in their hearts the difference between right and wrong,
>>regardless of what God they follow or weather they believe in God at all.
>>
>>Tony
>>
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinkabul.com> wrote in message news:450f0ab7$1@linux...
>>>
>>> "Tony Benson" <tony@standinghampton.com> wrote:
>>>>Hi Dedric,
>>>>
>>>>Don't take my comments as an indication that I have no "faith" in a
>>>>higher
>>>
>>>>power, but couldn't our ability to feel empathy be one possible reason
>
>>>>that
>>>
>>>>the majority of people might have similar morals. I don't think an
>>>>atheist
>>>
>>>>knows murder is wrong just because god said "thou shalt not kill". I
>>>>think
>>>
>>>>the golden rule has a lot to do with it. Over time, we have learned as
>>>>empathetic beings what is ultimately right and wrong. At least in the
> very
>>>
>>>>broad sense. Now, how we got to the point where we feel such a vast
>>>>number
>>>
>>>>of emotions and are able to apply them to how we treat others is
>>>>something
>>>
>>>>else to ponder.
>>>>
>>>>Tony
>>>
>>>
>>> The problem, of course, is that without a belief in moral
>>> absolutes, reflecting realites designed into us by our creator,
>>> anyone can say "who cares" to any social construct, contract,
>>> set of mutual obligations, or anthroplogicial observation that
>>> morals do indeed exist.
>>>
>>> In fact, one is invited to do so by an ideology that places
>>> humankind, not God at the center of existence. When the self
>>> is the center of the universe, one easily decides that someone
>>> else's morals and ideas of a social contract are an illusion.
>>> Worse, ideas about morals may even put them at a competitive
>>> disadvantage compared to the person who has none. (welcome
>>> to the music biz!)
>>>
>>> This result is likely given that set of assumptions, but it
>>> becomes inevitable one you go down the road of the neo-darwinists
>>> and socio-biologists who assert than humanity is simply a
>>> vehicle for furthering our "selfish genes" rather than a created
>>> being made to live in community with God and each other.
>>>
>>> The theist (and certainly the Christian) must always live in
>>> submission to a greater power, never being the center of
>>> existence, and deriving morality from a higher power than the
>>> self. Humility is our greatest calling, one I fail at
>>> regularly, but still, it is there.
>>>
>>> Without God, all is permitted.
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>>> "It appears that the great sacred-cow of our culture, the self,
>>> is not automatically interesting".
>>>
>>> -Robert Hughes
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>"Mike R." <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Hope it's ok to post this question here.
>A friend of mine is going to buy a new Mac laptop. She is running Cubase
SE
>on her current 'pute and wants a bigger faster, but portable, machine.
I'm
>most interested in your thoughts regarding both an audio card and what sort
>of external audio drive she could/should use. She generally won't be
>recording more than two tracks at a time, four absolute max. I don't think
>she'd be mixing more than eight tracks at any one time either. I will
>certainly be surfing myself to see what's out there, but I'd take you folk's
>recommendations, even over say... Mr. Spock's --although he did some pretty
>nifty stuff analyzing those whale sounds.
>Thank you, thank you.
>MR
>
>
I would go with a MacBook Pro and run Cubase under XP/ Bootcamp for the next
few months. The UB version should be out soon. For just a few tracks the
internal drive will be fine – even better if she goes with a 7200 drive.
This is an extremely fast box, and with an external drive you can do serious
recording, editing and mixing on it.
For simple needs, I would suggest an M-Audio Firewire interface. Low cost,
good drivers, works Mac and PC fine and she can even go to Pro Tools M-Powered
later if she likes. (Did I say that?)
GeneWhat do buffer and latency matter for anymore, what with ADC on native
systems?
I seriously have no idea, being a Paris junkie since the beginning.
Jimmy
"Chris Ludwig" <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote in message
news:450f2d33@linux...
> HI Mike,
>
>
> Mike R. wrote:
> > Hope it's ok to post this question here.
> > A friend of mine is going to buy a new Mac laptop. She is running
Cubase SE
> > on her current
>
> No Universal Binary yet for Cubase not till 4.0 comes out so I don't
> think it will work if it is a Intel based one.
>
> 'pute and wants a bigger faster, but portable, machine.
>
>
>
> I'm
> > most interested in your thoughts regarding both an audio card and what
sort
> > of external audio drive she could/should use.
>
> On a budget the Presonus Firebox is a great unit. If she want quality
> Mic-Pres and AD/DA, etc then the RME Fireface 400.
> Also the Mackie Spike or Onyx 400f might be a good option sense they
> come with the Tracktion software already.
>
> If she is only recording 2 tracks or so then there is no need for an
> external drive. It would only be needed fore backs ups but the projects
> would more than likely be small enough to easily fit on DVDRW.
> Using an internal 80 or 100 gig drive on the PC would easily allow for
> 32 tracks of 24/48 at 3 ms buffer on the RME Fireface 400. If you raise
> the buffer then 48 tracks should be no problem.
>
>
> She generally won't be
> > recording more than two tracks at a time, four absolute max. I don't
think
> > she'd be mixing more than eight tracks at any one time either. I will
> > certainly be surfing myself to see what's out there, but I'd take you
folk's
> > recommendations, even over say... Mr. Spock's --although he did some
pretty
> > nifty stuff analyzing those whale sounds.
> > Thank you, thank you.
> > MR
> >
> >
>
> The current laptops well use the new Core 2 Duo CPUs.
>
http://www.adkproaudio.com/systems/saved_system.cfm?systemid =103&saved_id=89
35
>
> :)
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
> Chris Ludwig
>
> ADK Pro Audio
> (859) 635-5762
> www.adkproaudio.com
> chrisl@adkproaudio.com"Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>DJ,
>Have you had a chance to hear it yet?
>Tom
Not DJ but...
I had it for a few hours before my temp license timed out prematurely. Sounds
nice and fairly close to the real thing. I did a short comparison to my Portico5043.
The UAD has a similar flavor and controls the dynamics in a very similar
way, but it is missing the creamy sound of the hardware - And I hate people
that describe hardware as creamy :¬)
Since the plug requires an entire card or it must be rendered, I don’t think
I will get it. I might as well render the real thing.
GeneHa! Having been a local downtown business owner, that ain't funny, actually.
Jimmy
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote in message
news:450f401a$1@linux...
> Fiber networks rock. I'm wondering though, when will this all hit a phase
> where a guy has to get a variance just to run his network :)
>
> AA
>I never said faith was limited to religion _at all_ because that would be
silly. I only bring this up because I think it's a very important point.
Nearly every time you read 'without faith there would be no XXXXXXXX' it's
just not true and XXXXXXXX can get along just fine without faith. Probably
the best popular book about risk is called 'Against the Gods' and it's sort
of about this very topic.
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Gods-Remarkable-Story-Risk/dp/ 0471295639/sr=8-1/qid=1158631839/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2500887-29 81628?ie=UTF8&s=books
TCB
Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>
>There you go, clearly faith is not limited to religion. Although just as
>clearly it's important for religion.
>
>As to risk, many people have faith that their risks will pan out. Some
>people do things because they have such faith. I know people like that.
>I am people like that. That doesn't preclude anyone from doing something
>for some other reason, of course.
>
>If you want to say you don't have faith in anything, using any of the
>definitions below, then that's your prerogative and I don't have a
>problem with that.
>
>Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>TCB wrote:
>> Here's dictionary.com
>>
>> faith  /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth]
>> Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
>> –noun
>> 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
>> 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis
would
>> be substantiated by fact.
>> 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm
faith
>> of the Pilgrims.
>> 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:
to
>> be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
>> 5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
>> 6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement,
>> etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
>> 7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath,
allegiance,
>> etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
>> 8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through
>> Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
>>
>> I don't see anything in there about risk. My point is that people can
do
>> the things you're talking about knowing full well they might fail, but
do
>> them anyway. That's taking a risk, not having faith. I don't have faith
but
>> I've taken lots of personal and professional risks in my life.
>>
>> TCB
>>
>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>> We can disagree about that but the first line is the dictionary definition.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Jamie
>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>
>>>
>>> TCB wrote:
>>>> You're confusing 'faith' with 'a willingness to take risks.' Animals
take
>>>> risks, to get food, create more animals, etc., but I doubt they have
faith.
>>>> One needs no faith to start businesses, invest money, get married, etc.
>>
>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>> Faith is complete trust or confidence in something or someone. Religious
>>>>> faith is one form of faith but not the only definition of "faith."
>>>>>
>>>>> For example I have faith that if I drop a guitar pick it will find
its
>>
>>>>> way to the floor based on the gravitational attraction it has to the
>>
>>>>> planet. I have faith that I'll breathe my next breath, that I'll see
>>
>>>>> tomorrow morning. I have faith that other people are put together much
>>
>>>>> like I am and that I can therefore relate to other folks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Without faith, people would not invest money. Without faith people
would
>>>>> not vote. Without faith people would not start businesses, hire other
>>
>>>>> people, raise children. Without faith people would not ride trains,
fly
>>>>> in planes or drive cars. Without faith no one would investigate
>>>>> scientific questions about reality.
>>>>>
>>>>> While you can clearly have faith without religion, you cannot have
>>>>> religion without faith. Religion depends on faith that one or more
>>>>> deities (good and sometimes bad) exist, that their associated stories
>>
>>>>> actually occurred, and often, that there is some sort of afterlife.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, religious people believe in a variety of different deities.
>>
>>>>> Even those who believe in the same deity disagree, sometimes violently,
>>>>> about the nature of their deity. Religions sometimes even disagree
about
>>>>> the nature of reality. If you want to base morality strictly on
>>>>> religion, and you look around, you'll notice that religion can be a
>>>>> somewhat chaotic basis unless...
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, you might say, I want to base morality on MY religion. Well, you
>>
>>>>> just dissed the majority of religions. No problem because THEY ARE
>>>>> WRONG. And people who believe in those religions may just be saying
the
>>>>> same thing about you and your religion. For those religions who are
not
>>>>> tolerant of other ideas, you may just have started a war.
>>>>>
>>>>> So perhaps it's BETTER, in our time, to have a system of justice that
>> is
>>>>> NOT based on a religion. But one which guarantees everyone the right
>> to
>>>>> practice the religion of their choice, guarantees other freedoms such
>> as
>>>>> we in the USA do in our Bill of Rights, encourages honesty and
>>>>> integrity, while enforcing some common sense limits such as no human
>>
>>>>> sacrifices, a minimum age for marriage, no incest, no slavery, no
>>>>> murder, no rape, no stealing, those sorts of things.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is viewed as morality beyond a fair justice system and common
sense
>>>>> rules of behavior can be left to each freely chosen religion to sort
>>
>>>>> out, like whether to restrict diet in some way, whether to wear a
>>>>> certain type of clothing, how to pray, etc. But none of these additional
>>>>> practices should be imposed on society as a whole.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Golden Rule may also be of use as a basic moral foundation.
>>>>>
>>>>> So yes, you can have a moral system, one that BTW protects the freedom
>>
>>>>> to practice religious beliefs (or not), without basing it on any one
>>
>>>>> religion. And it can protect all religions better than a system based
>> on
>>>>> any one religion (AKA a theocracy).
>>>>>
>>>>> There are other issues surrounding religions, such as the many examples
>>>>> of selfless dedication to helping others on the one hand, and hijacked
>>
>>>>> religions used to legitimize earthly power structures in other cases.
>>
>>>>> Dedric, I look forward to talking with you about the positives and
>>>>> negatives of various religions, and where a moral culture ought to
go
>>
>>>> >from here, whenever we next get together.
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dedric Terry wrote:
>>>>>> Hey Jimmy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No doubt one can be a good person without believing in God - there
are
>>>> tons
>>>>>> of great people with no faith, or very little. That in and of itself
>>>> tells
>>>>>> me there must be a God so even non-believers would have a strong sense
>>>> of
>>>>>> right and wrong on a societal and even global level.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To walk through some thoughts: with no God, or higher reference point,
>>>> what
>>>>>> would be considered moral, or at least good? What would one use to
>> decide
>>>>>> what is right and wrong?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Laws? Most would agree that we can't legislate morality now, so with
>>>> no
>>>>>> basis for what morality is, why would we even bother with laws since
>>>>>> everyone would make their own choices anyway?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Intellect? That would simply depend on what one chose to accept as
>>>>>> "intelligent" thought, based completely on opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reasoning and Logic? Logic is determined by a hypothesis that has
a
>> proven
>>>>>> outcome in a given situation. Change the situation, and the reasoning
>>>> or
>>>>>> logic behind the "right" or "wrong" could easily change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Experience? What if one's experience is filled with hatred, abuse,
>> anger
>>>>>> and violence, or worse? Then someone would have to decide whose experience
>>>>>> we would use as a reference point. There would be no guarantee that
>> person
>>>>>> or persons had experiences that would be best for the good of the
whole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Survival instinct? If it were a reference point, then stealing, lying,
>>>>>> cheating and even killing would be perfectly justified as those can
>> be
>>>> means
>>>>>> of survival.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would right and wrong even exist? I would think that the differences
>>>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71356 is a reply to message #71343] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 08:14 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>> between societies' definitions of right and wrong, assuming societies
>>>> even
>>>>>> existed, would be so drastic we would never have ventured into any
form
>>>> of
>>>>>> inter-cultural/inter-geographic interaction, much less relationships,
>>>>>> diplomacy, collaboration, trade, and open travel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As long as "morals" are only relative to each individual, they aren't
>>>>>> absolute morals that would last longer than the time it takes to make
>>>> the
>>>>>> choice. We would just have 6.5 billion opinions. There would only
>> be
>>>> an
>>>>>> ever changing perspective on what seems to "make sense" at the time,
>> and
>>>>>> based on this premise, even "making sense" would vary from person
to
>> person,
>>>>>> day to day, minute to minute. In that case, our prisons would either
>>>> be
>>>>>> filled with innocent people simply judged "wrong" at the time because
>>>> their
>>>>>> choices didn't match the preferences of the majority; or we wouldn't
>> have
>>>>>> prisons, or likely even organized societies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But is the majority always right? How would we know if there were
no
>>>>>> absolutes that supercede the majority in some form?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If there were no right and wrong, there would be no consequences of
>> either,
>>>>>> or at least we wouldn't view the outcome as a good or bad consequence
>>>> - it
>>>>>> would just be another event in time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But by grace and as a gift of freedom, God gave us a choice, both
in
>> whether
>>>>>> to believe in Him and whether to make right or wrong decisions. With
>>>> moral
>>>>>> absolutes (God's word) as a reference we have a way to evaluate drastically
>>>>>> differing situations on an equivalent basis; with consistency in reasoning
>>>>>> and compassion; by choice and instinct rather than puppetry. Even
when
>>>> we
>>>>>> choose to do wrong, He is willing to forgive us. Without that option
>>>> to
>>>>>> choose, balanced by God's grace and forgiveness, there would be no
power
>>>> in
>>>>>> choosing to believe in Him. That's what makes God a personal and
loving
>>>> God
>>>>>> rather than a dictator or puppet master.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Odd as it may seem to anyone who doesn't believe, I can see God in
the
>>>> way
>>>>>> that 1) we as a group of intelligent people on this forum can discuss
>>>>>> completely opposing opinions and still care enough to consider insulting,
>>>>>> belittling, slandering and hating one another an intolerable concept;
>>>> and 2)
>>>>>> in all likelihood agree that peace and compassion completely trump
greed
>>>> and
>>>>>> power in importance to life and survival together on this planet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/17/06 7:12 PM, in article 450df091@linux, "Uptown Jimmy"
>>>>>> <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The idea that one needs to believe in a god in order to have a strong
>>>> morals
>>>>>>> is absurd, I think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jimmy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:C1325038.358D%dterry@keyofd.net...
>>>>>>>> Gene -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You probably didn't realize it (so no offense), but your response
>> pretty
>>>>>>>> much confirms my assertion that the tendency of our country and
even
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> world society, is to place blame for religious conflict, violence
>> and
>>>>>>>> religiously motivated terrorism anywhere but with the single largest
>>>>>>>> growing, and currently most violent religion in the world. We ignore
>>>> car
>>>>>>>> bombings, suicide bombers, torched churches, thousands of tortured
>> and
>>>>>>>> murdered, exiled and ostracized people in favor of blaming the
>>>>>>>> administration for anything and everything, as if Bush made the
Pope
>>>> quote
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> Byzantine emperor by going to war in Iraq.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Islam isn't the passive, peaceful, non-threatening, all-accepting
>> religion
>>>>>>>> our country seems to blindly want to believe. Some western Muslims
>>>> might
>>>>>>>> be, but just ask anyone who tried to believe in anything else in
many
>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> conservative Islamic countries of the world. I know, have talked
>> to,
>>>> and
>>>>>>>> have heard missionaries to these countries speak - it's a different
>>>> world
>>>>>>>> from the free discussions and widely varying opinions we have here.
>>>>>>> People
>>>>>>>> die for converting to anything else, or their families do. At best,
>>>> their
>>>>>>>> families disown them and they sneak out of the country under threat
>>>> of
>>>>>>>> death. In fact it's the exact opposite of the "freedom" our country
>>>>>>>> continually pushes the limits of. Odd that we would turn on our
own
>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>> in favor of supporting, or at least turning a blind eye to this
kind
>>>> of
>>>>>>>> ideology, somehow believing that is the more politically correct
thing
>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The problem I see isn't religion, but a lack of faith in God, and
>> hence
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>> sense of direction and moral guidance. God gives us the choice
to
>> believe
>>>>>>>> or not. Based on documents of their activities - in the name of
Allah
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> 9/11 terrorists pretty much broke every one of the 10 commandments
>> in
>>>> 24
>>>>>>>> hours. That may seem a trivial or even silly fact, but there is
a
>> sad,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> frightening irony there. Faith in God isn't what one should fear
>> -
>>>> it's
>>>>>>>> believing in anything that conveniently appeases one's personal
whims
>>>> that
>>>>>>>> is the true danger.... the terrorists proved that in one day. That
>>>> also
>>>>>>>> includes believing in nothing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As Blaise Pascal once said (paraphrased): if one believes in God
and
>>>> is
>>>>>>>> wrong, at worst one has lived a good live and had some false hope
>> as
>>>> a
>>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>> of comfort along the way; if one doesn't believe and is wrong,
then
>>>> at
>>>>>>>> best, all is lost for eternity. This is the paradox that we should
>>>> be
>>>>>>>> considering, and yet the most fear-inducing thought is that the
President
>>>>>>>> might believe in something other than nothing. Is no belief really
>>>> better
>>>>>>>> than belief? What reference point for right and wrong accompanies
>>>>>>> disbelief
>>>>>>>> in anything higher than one's own decisions? What reference point
>> for
>>>>>>>> respect for other people's beliefs accompanies a lack of belief
in
>> any
>>>>>>>> guideline for living life and having respect and compassion for
others?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It isn't the administration's fault that the Pope quoted a guy Islam
>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>> like just because he called like he saw it - something we do on
this
>>>> forum
>>>>>>>> every single day, ironically. It also isn't Christianity's intent
>> to
>>>> take
>>>>>>>> over the world, or the government. Far from it. The only goal
is
>> to
>>>> give
>>>>>>>> people a chance to decide. Yet, those that want to decide to not
>> believe
>>>>>>>> would rather take that right away and remove Christianity from public
>>>>>>> view.
>>>>>>>> The only way to force someone to remove their belief from public
in
>>>> a
>>>>>>>> country that promotes the freedom to believe as one wishes, is to
>> outlaw
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>> Yet another paradox.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Through our short sighted political glasses we want to see the world
>>>> as a
>>>>>>>> black and white, free-will, partisan vote where one's party always
>> wins
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> the decisions are always in our favor, but fail to see any validity
>>>> in
>>>>>>>> believing a God that gave us the very moral compass to maintain
the
>>>>>>> balance
>>>>>>>> that kind of choice affords us. In essence we put our trust in
the
>>>> very
>>>>>>>> thing we prove day in and day out to be one of the most fallible
>>>>>>>> characteristics of humanity - political and relativistic ideology.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I guess I ignored my own first comment....sorry about that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I should get back to mourning NI Battery 2's destruction of 10 hours
>>>> of
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> :-((....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9/16/06 9:09 PM, in article 450cbc70$1@linux, "gene Lennon"
>>>>>>>> <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I don't want to start another religious or political thread -...
>>>>>>>>> These are frightening times. While the true neocons in the current
>>>>>>>>> administration
>>>>>>>>> have had a variety of political, financial and power-based reasons
>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> perusing
>>>>>>>>> the war against Iraq, the president has had an even scarier motivation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Religion.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you missed it, this week Bush has announced the "Third Great
>>>>>>> Awakening"
>>>>>>>>> of the international religious struggle. This is a good thing as
>> he
>>>> sees
>>>>>>>>> it and it has been partially brought on by the new fight against
>>>>>>> terrorists
>>>>>>>>> (Translation - Due to his good work in God's name). A war that
he
>>>>>>> depicts
>>>>>>>>> as "a confrontation between good and evil."
>>>>>>>>> In 2001 he used the word "crusade" and got into quite a bit of
trouble
>>>>>>> (as
>>>>>>>>> has the Pope), but he seems to have the gloves off now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can anyone imagine a worse direction for the world to be headed?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course he also believes in the Rapture, so things could easily
>> go
>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>> hill from here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> More on the "Third Awakening":
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09 /12/AR2006091201
>>>>>>> 59
>>>>>>>>> 4_pf.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> `
>>Dimitrios,
Were these tested for noise and microphonic distortion prior to you
purchasing them?
Do you offer any guarantee?
If so...please reserve them for me until next week.
Thanks!!
--
Brandon
"Brandon" <a@a.com> wrote:
>Dimitrios,
>
>Were these tested for noise and microphonic distortion prior to you
>purchasing them?
>Do you offer any guarantee?
>If so...please reserve them for me until next week.
>Thanks!!
>--
>Brandon
>
>
>
>"DImitrios" <musurgio@otenet.gr> wrote in message news:4507989b$1@linux...
>>
>> Hello Brandon,
>> Yes there are many fakes out there.
>> I happen to have some NOS Telefunken (original not fake :) so I might
sell
>> a couple.
>> I am asking 100 $ for both.
>> This is a very good price for NOS ones.
>> The only negative is that there are not in original boxes.
>> They were bought on a bulk but they are definetely NOS.
>> Regards,
>> Dimitrios
>>
>> "Brandon" <a@a.com> wrote:
>> >Thanks, I was looking here.
>> >http://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm
>> >Heard of em'?
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Brandon Goodwin
>> >
>> >Process Engineering
>> >Pentech Assembly
>> >"DC" <DC@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:45070dd5$1@linux...
>> >>
>> >> Be aware that these will be expensive. Also, be careful who
>> >> you buy from, since there are lots of fake Telefunkens out there.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dougs has some used ones:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.dougstubes.com/12au7.htm
>> >>
>> >> I haven't bought from these guys, but they list them (do a page
>> >> search for telefunken)
>> >> http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane/tubes.htm
>> >>
>> >> This guy has 'em (again, do a page search)
>> >> http://www.vacuumtube.com/guitar.htm
>> >>
>> >> I would also email Mike at KCA and let him know you are looking
>> >> and he will come up with them at one point or another.
>> >>
>> >> http://kcanostubes.com/content/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> They are available on ebay, but be VERY careful who you buy from!
>> >>
>> >> Good luck.
>> >>
>> >> DC
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Brandon" <a@a.com> wrote:
>> >> >So I am just supposed to get Telefunken brand ECC82s?
>> >> >
>> >> >Would the ECC802 be better?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >ECC82: This is the European version of the 12AU7, and is identical
to
>> it.
>> >> >The brands in demand are Telefunken, Amperex, and Mullard. Telefunken
>> >tubes
>> >> >have a diamond shape molded into the bottom of the glass. Both ribbed
>> >plate
>> >> >and the more famous smoothplate types are available, just like the
>12AX7,
>> >> >but are being hunted down and soon may be an endangered species.
>Amperex
>> >> and
>> >> >Mullard have tiny date codes etched in the glass near the bottom of
>the
>> >> >tube. The most popular Amperex are the Holland made Bugle Boy series,
>> >with
>> >> >the tiny cartoon tube blowing a bugle on the label. They later went
to
>> >just
>> >> >a white label that said "Amperex", and then after that used the orange
>> >label
>> >> >with the world logo. The earlier Mullard tubes had the word "Mullard"
>> >inside
>> >> >of a shield logo, later versions said "IEC Mullard". These are all
>tubes
>> >> of
>> >> >unequalled quality, and are worth the high prices they are commanding
>> >these
>> >> >days. Even used ones will blow away any of the trashy tubes in
>production
>> >> >today. Vintage versions again used the chalky paint, and frequently
>the
>> >> >labels on any of these tubes are usually smeared.
>> >> >
>> >> >ECC802: This is a premium version of the European ECC82, with matched
>> >triode
>> >> >sections. These are very rare in the USA, and often command very high
>> >> >prices.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >Brandon Goodwin
>> >> >
>> >> >Process Engineering
>> >> >Pentech Assembly
>> >> >"Brandon" <a@a.com> wrote in message news:Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71359 is a reply to message #71356] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 08:58 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
; >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Hope this helps
>> >> >> > > Regards,
>> >> >> > > Dimitrios
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>Thanks for the link. It looks like it might be a more interesting read
than what you might expect of a book on probability theory.
Without risk management there would be no insurance.
Seems like we have some major risk management headaches ahead in the
foreign relations area. I don't have much faith that our current
government understands the situation or is capable of brokering a
lasting and beneficial peace.
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
TCB wrote:
> I never said faith was limited to religion _at all_ because that would be
> silly. I only bring this up because I think it's a very important point.
> Nearly every time you read 'without faith there would be no XXXXXXXX' it's
> just not true and XXXXXXXX can get along just fine without faith. Probably
> the best popular book about risk is called 'Against the Gods' and it's sort
> of about this very topic.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Against-Gods-Remarkable-Story-Risk/dp/ 0471295639/sr=8-1/qid=1158631839/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2500887-29 81628?ie=UTF8&s=books
>
> TCB
>
> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>> There you go, clearly faith is not limited to religion. Although just as
>
>> clearly it's important for religion.
>>
>> As to risk, many people have faith that their risks will pan out. Some
>> people do things because they have such faith. I know people like that.
>
>> I am people like that. That doesn't preclude anyone from doing something
>
>> for some other reason, of course.
>>
>> If you want to say you don't have faith in anything, using any of the
>> definitions below, then that's your prerogative and I don't have a
>> problem with that.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> TCB wrote:
>>> Here's dictionary.com
>>>
>>> faith  /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth]
>>> Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
>>> –noun
>>> 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
>>> 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis
> would
>>> be substantiated by fact.
>>> 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm
> faith
>>> of the Pilgrims.
>>> 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:
> to
>>> be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
>>> 5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
>>> 6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement,
>>> etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
>>> 7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath,
> allegiance,
>>> etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
>>> 8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through
>>> Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
>>>
>>> I don't see anything in there about risk. My point is that people can
> do
>>> the things you're talking about knowing full well they might fail, but
> do
>>> them anyway. That's taking a risk, not having faith. I don't have faith
> but
>>> I've taken lots of personal and professional risks in my life.
>>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>> We can disagree about that but the first line is the dictionary definition.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>> You're confusing 'faith' with 'a willingness to take risks.' Animals
> take
>>>>> risks, to get food, create more animals, etc., but I doubt they have
> faith.
>>>>> One needs no faith to start businesses, invest money, get married, etc.
>>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Faith is complete trust or confidence in something or someone. Religious
>>>>>> faith is one form of faith but not the only definition of "faith."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example I have faith that if I drop a guitar pick it will find
> its
>>>>>> way to the floor based on the gravitational attraction it has to the
>>>>>> planet. I have faith that I'll breathe my next breath, that I'll see
>>>>>> tomorrow morning. I have faith that other people are put together much
>>>>>> like I am and that I can therefore relate to other folks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Without faith, people would not invest money. Without faith people
> would
>>>>>> not vote. Without faith people would not start businesses, hire other
>>>>>> people, raise children. Without faith people would not ride trains,
> fly
>>>>>> in planes or drive cars. Without faith no one would investigate
>>>>>> scientific questions about reality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While you can clearly have faith without religion, you cannot have
>
>>>>>> religion without faith. Religion depends on faith that one or more
>
>>>>>> deities (good and sometimes bad) exist, that their associated stories
>>>>>> actually occurred, and often, that there is some sort of afterlife.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, religious people believe in a variety of different deities.
>>>>>> Even those who believe in the same deity disagree, sometimes violently,
>>>>>> about the nature of their deity. Religions sometimes even disagree
> about
>>>>>> the nature of reality. If you want to base morality strictly on
>>>>>> religion, and you look around, you'll notice that religion can be a
>
>>>>>> somewhat chaotic basis unless...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, you might say, I want to base morality on MY religion. Well, you
>>>>>> just dissed the majority of religions. No problem because THEY ARE
>
>>>>>> WRONG. And people who believe in those religions may just be saying
> the
>>>>>> same thing about you and your religion. For those religions who are
> not
>>>>>> tolerant of other ideas, you may just have started a war.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So perhaps it's BETTER, in our time, to have a system of justice that
>>> is
>>>>>> NOT based on a religion. But one which guarantees everyone the right
>>> to
>>>>>> practice the religion of their choice, guarantees other freedoms such
>>> as
>>>>>> we in the USA do in our Bill of Rights, encourages honesty and
>>>>>> integrity, while enforcing some common sense limits such as no human
>>>>>> sacrifices, a minimum age for marriage, no incest, no slavery, no
>>>>>> murder, no rape, no stealing, those sorts of things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is viewed as morality beyond a fair justice system and common
> sense
>>>>>> rules of behavior can be left to each freely chosen religion to sort
>>>>>> out, like whether to restrict diet in some way, whether to wear a
>>>>>> certain type of clothing, how to pray, etc. But none of these additional
>>>>>> practices should be imposed on society as a whole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Golden Rule may also be of use as a basic moral foundation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So yes, you can have a moral system, one that BTW protects the freedom
>>>>>> to practice religious beliefs (or not), without basing it on any one
>>>>>> religion. And it can protect all religions better than a system based
>>> on
>>>>>> any one religion (AKA a theocracy).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are other issues surrounding religions, such as the many examples
>>>>>> of selfless dedication to helping others on the one hand, and hijacked
>>>>>> religions used to legitimize earthly power structures in other cases.
>>>>>> Dedric, I look forward to talking with you about the positives and
>
>>>>>> negatives of various religions, and where a moral culture ought to
> go
>>>>> >from here, whenever we next get together.
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dedric Terry wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey Jimmy,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No doubt one can be a good person without believing in God - there
> are
>>>>> tons
>>>>>>> of great people with no faith, or very little. That in and of itself
>>>>> tells
>>>>>>> me there must be a God so even non-believers would have a strong sense
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> right and wrong on a societal and even global level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To walk through some thoughts: with no God, or higher reference point,
>>>>> what
>>>>>>> would be considered moral, or at least good? What would one use to
>>> decide
>>>>>>> what is right and wrong?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Laws? Most would agree that we can't legislate morality now, so with
>>>>> no
>>>>>>> basis for what morality is, why would we even bother with laws since
>>>>>>> everyone would make their own choices anyway?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Intellect? That would simply depend on what one chose to accept as
>>>>>>> "intelligent" thought, based completely on opinion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reasoning and Logic? Logic is determined by a hypothesis that has
> a
>>> proven
>>>>>>> outcome in a given situation. Change the situation, and the reasoning
>>>>> or
>>>>>>> logic behind the "right" or "wrong" could easily change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Experience? What if one's experience is filled with hatred, abuse,
>>> anger
>>>>>>> and violence, or worse? Then someone would have to decide whose experience
>>>>>>> we would use as a reference point. There would be no guarantee that
>>> person
>>>>>>> or persons had experiences that would be best for the good of the
> whole.
>>>>>>> Survival instinct? If it were a reference point, then stealing, lying,
>>>>>>> cheating and even killing would be perfectly justified as those can
>>> be
>>>>> means
>>>>>>> of survival.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would right and wrong even exist? I would think that the differences
>>>>>>> between societies' definitions of right and wrong, assuming societies
>>>>> even
>>>>>>> existed, would be so drastic we would never have ventured into any
> form
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> inter-cultural/inter-geographic interaction, much less relationships,
>>>>>>> diplomacy, collaboration, trade, and open travel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As long as "morals" are only relative to each individual, they aren't
>>>>>>> absolute morals that would last longer than the time it takes to make
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> choice. We would just have 6.5 billion opinions. There would only
>>> be
>>>>> an
>>>>>>> ever changing perspective on what seems to "make sense" at the time,
>>> and
>>>>>>> based on this premise, even "making sense" would vary from person
> to
>>> person,
>>>>>>> day to day, minute to minute. In that case, our prisons would either
>>>>> be
>>>>>>> filled with innocent people simply judged "wrong" at the time because
>>>>> their
>>>>>>> choices didn't match the preferences of the majority; or we wouldn't
>>> have
>>>>>>> prisons, or likely even organized societies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But is the majority always right? How would we know if there were
> no
>>>>>>> absolutes that supercede the majority in some form?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If there were no right and wrong, there would be no consequences of
>>> either,
>>>>>>> or at least we wouldn't view the outcome as a good or bad consequence
>>>>> - it
>>>>>>> would just be another event in time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But by grace and as a gift of freedom, God gave us a choice, both
> in
>>> whether
>>>>>>> to believe in Him and whether to make right or wrong decisions. With
>>>>> moral
>>>>>>> absolutes (God's word) as a reference we have a way to evaluate drastically
>>>>>>> differing situations on an equivalent basis; with consistency in reasoning
>>>>>>> and compassion; by choice and instinct rather than puppetry. Even
> when
>>>>> we
>>>>>>> choose to do wrong, He is willing to forgive us. Without that option
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> choose, balanced by God's grace and forgiveness, there would be no
> power
>>>>> in
>>>>>>> choosing to believe in Him. That's what makes God a personal and
> loving
>>>>> God
>>>>>>> rather than a dictator or puppet master.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Odd as it may seem to anyone who doesn't believe, I can see God in
> the
>>>>> way
>>>>>>> that 1) we as a group of intelligent people on this forum can discuss
>>>>>>> completely opposing opinions and still care enough to consider insulting,
>>>>>>> belittling, slandering and hating one another an intolerable concept;
>>>>> and 2)
>>>>>>> in all likelihood agree that peace and compassion completely trump
> greed
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> power in importance to life and survival together on this planet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/17/06 7:12 PM, in article 450df091@linux, "Uptown Jimmy"
>>>>>>> <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The idea that one needs to believe in a god in order to have a strong
>>>>> morals
>>>>>>>> is absurd, I think.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jimmy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:C1325038.358D%dterry@keyofd.net...
>>>>>>>>> Gene -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You probably didn't realize it (so no offense), but your response
>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>> much confirms my assertion that the tendency of our country and
> even
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> world society, is to place blame for religious conflict, violence
>>> and
>>>>>>>>> religiously motivated terrorism anywhere but with the single largest
>>>>>>>>> growing, and currently most violent religion in the world. We ignore
>>>>> car
>>>>>>>>> bombings, suicide bombers, torched churches, thousands of tortured
>>> and
>>>>>>>>> murdered, exiled and ostracized people in favor of blaming the
>>>>>>>>> administration for anything and everything, as if Bush made the
> Pope
>>>>> quote
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> Byzantine emperor by going to war in Iraq.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Islam isn't the passive, peaceful, non-threatening, all-accepting
>>> religion
>>>>>>>>> our country seems to blindly want to believe. Some western Muslims
>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>> be, but just ask anyone who tried to believe in anything else in
> many
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> conservative Islamic countries of the world. I know, have talked
>>> to,
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> have heard missionaries to these countries speak - it's a different
>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>> from the free discussions and widely varying opinions we have here.
>>>>>>>> People
>>>>>>>>> die for converting to anything else, or their families do. At best,
>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> families disown them and they sneak out of the country under threat
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> death. In fact it's the exact opposite of the "freedom" our country
>>>>>>>>> continually pushes the limits of. Odd that we would turn on our
> own
>>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>> in favor of supporting, or at least turning a blind eye to this
> kind
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> ideology, somehow believing that is the more politically correct
> thing
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The problem I see isn't religion, but a lack of faith in God, and
>>> hence
>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>> sense of direction and moral guidance. God gives us the choice
> to
>>> believe
>>>>>>>>> or not. Based on documents of their activities - in the name of
> Allah
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> 9/11 terrorists pretty much broke every one of the 10 commandments
>>> in
>>>>> 24
>>>>>>>>> hours. That may seem a trivial or even silly fact, but there is
> a
>>> sad,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> frightening irony there. Faith in God isn't what one should fear
>>> -
>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> believing in anything that conveniently appeases one's personal
> whims
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> is the true danger.... the terrorists proved that in one day. That
>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>> includes believing in nothing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As Blaise Pascal once said (paraphrased): if one believes in God
> and
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> wrong, at worst one has lived a good live and had some false hope
>>> as
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>>> of comfort along the way; if one doesn't believe and is wrong,
> then
>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> best, all is lost for eternity. This is the paradox that we should
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> considering, and yet the most fear-inducing thought is that the
> President
>>>>>>>>> might believe in something other than nothing. Is no belief really
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71360 is a reply to message #71355] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 08:58 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>>>> better
>>>>>>>>> than belief? What reference point for right and wrong accompanies
>>>>>>>> disbelief
>>>>>>>>> in anything higher than one's own decisions? What reference point
>>> for
>>>>>>>>> respect for other people's beliefs accompanies a lack of belief
> in
>>> any
>>>>>>>>> guideline for living life and having respect and compassion for
> others?
>>>>>>>>> It isn't the administration's fault that the Pope quoted a guy Islam
>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>> like just because he called like he saw it - something we do on
> this
>>>>> forum
>>>>>>>>> every single day, ironically. It also isn't Christianity's intent
>>> to
>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>> over the world, or the government. Far from it. The only goal
> is
>>> to
>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>> people a chance to decide. Yet, those that want to decide to not
>>> believe
>>>>>>>>> would rather take that right away and remove Christianity from public
>>>>>>>> view.
>>>>>>>>> The only way to force someone to remove their belief from public
> in
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> country that promotes the freedom to believe as one wishes, is to
>>> outlaw
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> Yet another paradox.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Through our short sighted political glasses we want to see the world
>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>> black and white, free-will, partisan vote where one's party always
>>> wins
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> the decisions are always in our favor, but fail to see any validity
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> believing a God that gave us the very moral compass to maintain
> the
>>>>>>>> balance
>>>>>>>>> that kind of choice affords us. In essence we put our trust in
> the
>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>> thing we prove day in and day out to be one of the most fallible
>>>>>>>>> characteristics of humanity - political and relativistic ideology.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I guess I ignored my own first comment....sorry about that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I should get back to mourning NI Battery 2's destruction of 10 hours
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>> :-((....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9/16/06 9:09 PM, in article 450cbc70$1@linux, "gene Lennon"
>>>>>>>>> <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't want to start another religious or political thread -...
>>>>>>>>>> These are frightening times. While the true neocons in the current
>>>>>>>>>> administration
>>>>>>>>>> have had a variety of political, financial and power-based reasons
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> perusing
>>>>>>>>>> the war against Iraq, the president has had an even scarier motivation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Religion.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you missed it, this week Bush has announced the "Third Great
>>>>>>>> Awakening"
>>>>>>>>>> of the international religious struggle. This is a good thing as
>>> he
>>>>> sees
>>>>>>>>>> it and it has been partially brought on by the new fight against
>>>>>>>> terrorists
>>>>>>>>>> (Translation - Due to his good work in God's name). A war that
> he
>>>>>>>> depicts
>>>>>>>>>> as "a confrontation between good and evil."
>>>>>>>>>> In 2001 he used the word "crusade" and got into quite a bit of
> trouble
>>>>>>>> (as
>>>>>>>>>> has the Pope), but he seems to have the gloves off now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Can anyone imagine a worse direction for the world to be headed?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Of course he also believes in the Rapture, so things could easily
>>> go
>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>> hill from here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> More on the "Third Awakening":
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09 /12/AR2006091201
>>>>>>>> 59
>>>>>>>>>> 4_pf.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> `
>"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:450f3862@linux...
>
> Neither, actually. And what we ought to do would depend on the nature of
> the threat.
Agreed.
>
> We might want to start with recommendations published in 1999, well
> before the 9/11 attack.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Terroris m
>
> We can disagree about whether our current policy is one of overreacting
> or not. We can probably really disagree about the newly minted
> preemptive attack policy. :^)
I don't think there is any newly minted attack policy. There has always been
the *clear and present danger* perogative but it needs to be based on
accurate intelligence. Had this been available, then I doubt that Bush,
Kerry, Kennedy Pelosi and the rest would have authorized the invasion of
Iraq, or perhaps they would have been able to find the WMD's before they
were shipped out of the country or hidden. I just find it hard to stomach
the hypocracy of the democrats whose policies neutered our intelligence
services in the '90's when they trun around and blame Bush for the decisions
made based on the intellegence blunders they created in the first place.
Regards,
Deej
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> DJ wrote:
> > I don't see us overreacting Jamie. However, if there is indication of
some
> > sort of major threat, do we run and tell the NY times or do we blow the
> > threat away before it pays us a visit?
> >
> >
> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:450f0b12@linux...
> >> Of course they came out with a blustery ultimatum. That's not news,
it's
> >> an old pattern. It works for them to sit back and suggest that others
do
> >> something via terror-grams such as this. If it makes you afraid as
well,
> >> my guess is they would see that as a bonus.
> >>
> >> By goading the USA into overreacting it helps them grow, raise money
and
> >> convince others to actually see us as evil and act accordingly. It
> >> works, we keep falling for it. OTOH, for those here with a declared
> >> interest in emptying the US treasury, it's likewise beneficial to have
> >> the specter of an enemy out there. Fear sells.
> >>
> >> We have yet to actually declare war on anyone in this whole mess. How
do
> >> you declare war on a tactic?
> >>
> >> Forced conversion and head taxes would go over like a lead balloon in
> >> the USA. Not gonna happen. We're far more sectarian than, say, Iraq.
> >>
> >> Responsible leadership is needed in the world to calm extremist
> >> tendencies on all sides and help rational people who are trying to get
> >> by in worsening times. At the same time we need to be, and are
> >> attempting to be, vigilant against any self righteous group with
> >> fantasies of violence in the USA.
> >>
> >> Any rush to some sort of "holy war" is irrational. There is nothing
holy
> >> about war.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -Jamie
> >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> DJ wrote:
> >>> I haven't seen us react with irrationality.............yet. Al Quaeda
> > just
> >>> came out with an ultimatim stating that it's full on war now and the
> > west
> >>> will be destroyed. The only way to save ourselves is to convert to
> > Islam. So
> >>> where to you draw the line between irrationality and self defense?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
news:450ee7ef@linux...
> >>>> Let's keep from reacting to irrationality with irrationality of our
> > own.
> >>>> There's a lot of fear mongering. Chicken Little is back.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> -Jamie
> >>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> DJ wrote:
> >>>>> It doesn't matter at all whether this was the Pope. The bottom line
is
> >>> that
> >>>>> it is rationality as opposed to irrationality.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> > news:450ec970@linux...
> >>>>>> The Catholic church doesn't speak for Christianity. Certainly not
for
> >>>>>> Lutherans, and for good reason.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A Pope criticizing other religions (even other Christian sects,
even
> >>>>>> other Catholics) is nothing new. Certainly much harsher things have
> >>> been
> >>>>>> said about Islam by some (not all) extreme fundamentalist
Christians.
> >>>>>> And certainly much harsher things have been said by certain
extremist
> >>>>>> Islamists about Christianity. The more extremist of both camps seem
> > to
> >>>>>> be spoiling to relive the crusades. With some of the more power
> > hungry
> >>>>>> ready to endanger civilization by attempting to incite religious
wars
> >>>>>> for their own questionable ends.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's a vast generalization to say the "the left" or "secularists"
or
> >>>>>> even "Christians" are demanding an apology from the Pope. I think a
> >>>>>> whole lot of people think the Pope can say whatever he wants. It
> >>> doesn't
> >>>>>> matter to most non-Catholics in the USA and in reality, Papal
> >>>>>> declarations are ignored by a fair number of Catholics here, too.
> >>>>>> Obviously some Moslems are upset in some places, but how deep does
> > that
> >>>>>> go? When black churches were burning in the USA, it would have been
> > an
> >>>>>> exaggeration to blame everyone in the USA for that.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The fear of reason extends to the Catholic church which only very
> >>>>>> recently apologized for the oppression of Galileo. The church hung
on
> >>>>>> tenaciously to the dogma of an earth-centered view of the universe
> >>> while
> >>>>>> denying the heliocentric theory of Copernicus, which describes the
> >>>>>> actual way the solar system works.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It also extends to a few Christian sects who, feeling similarly
> >>>>>> insecure, tenaciously cling to the notion that the earth is only
> > about
> >>>>>> 6,000 years old, by virtue of the biblical interpretations and
clever
> >>>>>> (at the time) calculations of an Irish Bishop several centuries
ago,
> >>> and
> >>>>>> in the face of solid current scientific evidence to the contrary.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some (not all) Christian churches
who,
> >>>>>> feeling similarly insecure, deny the solid and ever-mounting
evidence
> >>> of
> >>>>>> evolution, responding with dogma in psuedo-scientific clothing, and
> > who
> >>>>>> seek to water down scientific education in the USA.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The fear of reason extends to power hungry industries who pay big
> > bucks
> >>>>>> to spread denial about global warming for short term gain. Who push
> > to
> >>>>>> control oil in the middle east with force. With our guns blazing,
our
> >>>>>> soldiers dying and our debt rising astronomically. And who
sometimes
> >>>>>> hide behind Christianity to do so.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some neoconservatives who find ways
to
> >>>>>> pretend that everyone is aligning against Christianity. And in
> >>> spreading
> >>>>>> this fear attempt to incite Christians to vote to keep them in
power.
> >>>>>> And in so pandering, help to continue the denial of reason and the
> >>> focus
> >>>>>> on the use of force.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not that I'll change your mind, DC, so go ahead and declare
victory.
> >>> ;^)
> >>>>>> Have a great week!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> -Jamie
> >>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> DC wrote:
> >>>>>>> I thought this was worth reading if any of you are interested.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Have a great Monday!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The Unholy Alliance Rolls Over the Pope
> >>>>>>> By Andrew Walden
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In what has suddenly been made into a highly controversial
> >>>>>>> speech, the day after September 11, at Bavaria’s University of
> >>>>>>> Regensberg, Pope Benedict describes Christian belief in a God
> >>>>>>> whose words and acts are bound by reason, truth and the law of
> >>>>>>> non-contradiction. Benedict contrasts this with Islamic belief
> >>>>>>> in a God not bound by anything—including his own words. Benedict
> >>>>>>> further contrasts Christian belief with that of secular humanists
> >>>>>>> who see reason as being completely unbound of God.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In response, both Islamists and secularists have demanded the
> >>>>>>> Pope apologize. Benedict’s speech is a work of enlightened
> >>>>>>> genius. He has clearly laid out the differences between
> >>>>>>> Christian culture and Islamic culture and the basis of the clash
> >>>>>>> of civilizations we now experience as the War on Terror. His
> >>>>>>> analysis also explains the underlying cause of the alliance
> >>>>>>> between the western Left and the Islamofascist Right.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Islamist reaction focuses on one sentence in the speech.
> >>>>>>> Reaching back to 1391, Benedict quotes Byzantine Emperor Manuel
> >>>>>>> II: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there
> >>>>>>> you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command
> >>>>>>> to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Four days later, according to AP: “Pakistan's legislature
> >>>>>>> unanimously condemned Pope Benedict XVI. Lebanon's top Shiite
> >>>>>>> cleric demanded an apology. And in Turkey, the ruling party
> >>>>>>> likened the pontiff to Hitler and Mussolini and accused him of
> >>>>>>> reviving the mentality of the Crusades.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> “Across the Islamic world Friday, Benedict's remarks on Islam and
> >>>>>>> jihad in a speech in Germany unleashed a torrent of rage that
> >>>>>>> many fear could burst into violent protests like those that
> >>>>>>> followed publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.”
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Reuters quoted other sources expressing fears for the Pope’s
> >>>>>>> safety and even fear of an attack on Vatican City.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The Islamist reaction proves Manuel II’s 600-year-old point. The
> >>>>>>> reaction is not one of anger but a calculated attempt to force
> >>>>>>> the Pope to parrot the PC line on Islam. Since Islam need not be
> >>>>>>> internally consistent and it is not bound by reason, it’s only
> >>>>>>> objective can be to assert the power of a God who is so
> >>>>>>> transcendent that He is not bound by anything. If man is created
> >>>>>>> in God’s image then by extension Islamic man is not bound by
> >>>>>>> anything. (This explains the predilection on the part of some
> >>>>>>> Muslims to lie.) Islamists are not responding to any ‘offense’ to
> >>>>>>> their non-existent morality. They are asserting the only
> >>>>>>> ‘morality’ they have—the will to power.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> “Will to Power” is a key element of Nietzsche ’s philosophy—hence
> >>>>>>> the root of the term, Islamofascist. Moreover the Western “Left’
> >>>>>>> is today guided far more by Nietzsche existentialist thought than
> >>>>>>> by Marxist thought—hence the alliance between the Western “Left”
> >>>>>>> and the Islamofascist ‘Right.’
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Reuters quotes an Indian Muslim leader doing precisely what
> >>>>>>> Manuel II said they would: “Syed Ahmed Bukhari, the chief cleric
> >>>>>>> of New Delhi's historic Jama Masjid, India's largest mosque,
> >>>>>>> extolled Muslims to ‘respond in a manner which forces the Pope to
> >>>>>>> apologize.’” Note they intend to use “force” not reason.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Reuters quotes an unnamed diplomat pointing out the Pope was,
> >>>>>>> “calling a spade a spade”.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The secularist mouthpiece, New York Times,editorializes, “Pope
> >>>>>>> Benedict XVI has insulted Muslims….” This is false. The Pope’s
> >>>>>>> description of the Islamic God as being unbound by reason is not
> >>>>>>> an insult, it is an Islamic article of faith. What Muslims and
> >>>>>>> secularists fear is the Pope’s decision to choose to enter
> >>>>>>> dialogue asserting his belief in Christianity. How dare he not
> >>>>>>> “apologize” for being a Christian? That is the so-called
> >>>>>>> “insult.”
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> One might “reasonably” ask when will Muslims “apologize” for
> >>>>>>> being Muslim? But they are not bound by reason to the point is
> >>>>>>> lost on them.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Amazingly the Times continues: “Muslim leaders the world over
> >>>>>>> have demanded apologies… For many Muslims, holy war — jihad — is
> >>>>>>> a spiritual struggle, and not a call to violence.” In saying
> >>>>>>> this, the Times implicitly recognizes the Islamists are waging a
> >>>>>>> propaganda jihad against the Pope and by extension against
> >>>>>>> Christianity—and they explicitly endorse and join this jihad.
> >>>>>>> The Times is saying to Islamists, ‘we can join your ‘spiritual’
> >>>>>>> jihad, but not your violent jihad.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The Times editors are living in a fool’s paradise. The
> >>>>>>> “spiritual” non-violent jihad of propaganda is merely the flip
> >>>>>>> side of the violent jihad. Nowhere is that more clear than in
> >>>>>>> the Islamist reaction to the Pope.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> With the Pope scheduled to visit Turkey in November the Islamists
> >>>>>>> are rejecting any apology from Vatican spokespersons and demand
> >>>>>>> to hear from the Pope himself. This would place raging mobs of
> >>>>>>> semi-literate Islamist thugs in the position of forcing the
> >>>>>>> leader of Christendom to bow before them.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In this demand for submission they are joined by the secularist
> >>>>>>> mouthpiece. In its September 16 edition the Times editorializes:
> >>>>>>> “He needs to offer a deep and persuasive apology…” The
> >>>>>>> secularists too seek the Pope’s submission. Like the Islamists,
> >>>>>>> the secularists are driven only by their will to power. While
> >>>>>>> the Islamists represent their demented version of
> >>>>>>> God--unrestrained by reason, the secularists represent their
> >>>>>>> demented version of reason--unrestrained by God. They are united
> >>>>>>> by their self-worshipping world view.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It should be noted that the carefully staged “anger’ from the
> >>>>>>> Islamic world does not condemn Benedict’s characterization of
> >>>>>>> Islam as a religion where God’s “will is not bound up with any of
> >>>>>>> our categories, even that of rationality...(The Islamic) God is
> >>>>>>> not bound even by his own word….” This is not seen as an insult.
> >>>>>>> Islam embraces this description. In offering this description of
> >>>>>>> Islam, Benedict refers to the views of leading modern French
> >>>>>>> Islamist R. Arnaldez as discussed in the writings of Professor
> >>>>>>> Theodore Khoury of Munster.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Likewise the secularists express no dismay at the pope’s
> >>>>>>> characterization of a secularist as: “(A) subject (who) then
> >>>>>>> decides, on the basis of his experiences, what he considers
> >>>>>>> tenable in matters of religion, and the subjective ‘conscience’
> >>>>>>> becomes the sole arbiter of what is ethical.”
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Benedict asserts that without reason, or without God, there can
> >>>>>>> be no modern system of morality. He explains, “In this
> >>>>>>> way…ethics and religion lose their power to create a community
> >>>>>>> and become (instead) a completely personal matter.”
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Both Islamist and secularist seek to break God and reason apart.
> >>>>>>> Each claims superiority over the Christian West. They believe
> >>>>>>> absolute moral license makes them powerful. As globalization
> >>>>>>> carries the Western tradition of reason throughout the world,
> >>>>>>> both are in decline.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Where the force of r
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71361 is a reply to message #71360] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 09:03 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
eason is defeated, Islamist and secularist
> >>>>>>> will meet in combat, just as Hitler’s fascists broke their pact
> >>>>>>> with the Soviet Union, invading in June, 1941 after the collapse
> >>>>>>> of the allied forces on the western front.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What the Islamists and the New York Times both fear is having to
> >>>>>>> reply to the Pope’s key point, borrowed from the Byzantine
> >>>>>>> Emperor: “‘Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos (word or
> >>>>>>> reason) is contrary to the nature of God,’.… It is to this great
> >>>>>>> logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in
> >>>>>>> the dialogue of cultures.”
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Their fear of reason can only lead the world to disaster.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >
> >I'm going to be out there again tomorrow. I'll bring my camera and post some
pics.
;o)
"Tony Benson" <tony@standinghampton.com> wrote in message
news:450eca3f@linux...
> Deej,
>
> Three things:
>
> Holy Water
> Silver Bullets (and gun, duh)
> Crucifix
>
> Hey, better safe than sorry!
>
> ;>)
>
> Tony
>
>
> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
> news:450c1c47$1@linux...
> > I'm going to be meeting the owner of the property onsite next week. I'm
> > going to ask him about this. The headstones of these graves are very old
> > and
> > discolored by time and weather. I'll tell you something though, this guy
> > is
> > in his 80's, shoes horses for a living and looks about my age. I know
one
> > of
> > his cousins who is in his 90's, still slings 70 lb bales of hay from the
> > ground to the bed of a flatbed trailer with one arm and looks like he's
in
> > his 50's. He just married a 50 something Phillipino woman. The
Martinez/De
> > La Madrid folks have some mighty impressive genetics. I wonder if some
of
> > them might have long pointy canines.
> >
> > ;o)
> >
> >
> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:450c196d@linux...
> >>
> >> Do you suppose there was a fresh burial in an old grave, or someone
> >> stealing skeletal parts? Might want to report that one to the county
> >> sheriff.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -Jamie
> >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>
> >>
> >> DJ wrote:
> >> > Strange......I know ya'll think I'm nuts anyway so I can be honest
> >> > here.
> >> > Back in 1966 I was driving home from a gig with our drummer about 1AM
> >> > on
> >> > Loop 820 in Ft. Worth Tx. We both saw something sorta like this
except
> > the
> >> > tail wasn't nearly as long and it was moving at incredible speed and
> >> > changing directions instantaneously. It was right over Carswell AFB
and
> > a
> >> > few minutes after whatever this was started dancing across the sky,
you
> >> > could see a couple of jets scrambling, at which time the *thing* just
> > sorta'
> >> > went *poof* and was gone.
> >> >
> >> > I saw something else *incredibly* strange day before yesterday. I was
> > out in
> >> > a very isolated wilderness area bordering an Indian reservation up in
> > the
> >> > mountains. I had parked my car and walked about a mile off the main
> > road. I
> >> > know the guy who owns this property and was scouting a location for a
> > road
> >> > through there to reach an area where some gas wells are going to be
> > drilled
> >> > next year. It was a beautiful fall day with the sagebrush blooming,
> > aspens,
> >> > cottonwoods, elms and oaks are starting to turn and there had been a
> >> > downpour the night before. Everything is green and a thousand other
> > colors.
> >> > Lots of birds, deer, badgers, prarie dogs flying and scurrying around
> >> > getting ready for winter. I was sorta walking along looking at the
> > mountains
> >> > around me and I noticed that the normal bird sound had stopped and so
I
> >> > started scanning the area around me. this can be a sign of bears or
> > cougars
> >> > and I wasn't packin'. About 100' to my left was a fenced area
overgrown
> > with
> >> > vegetation and I walked over to it. It was the family cemetery. It
was
> > about
> >> > 100' x 100' and there were about 20 old grave plots in there. I
started
> >> > checking the names and dates because I am going to need to prepare an
> >> > affidavit of heirship of this family in order to determine who will
> >> > sign
> > the
> >> > paperwork for this roadway and who will get paid. The owner already
> >> > told
> > me
> >> > that the land has been in the family since the early 1900's and was
> > patented
> >> > to his great grandfather. None of his relatives ever left wills so
I'm
> > gonna
> >> > have to unravel this family tree. As I started noting the names and
> > dates of
> >> > birth/death I was walking along a row of graves and there were three
> > graves
> >> > of brothers (I think) that had birth dates in the 1880's and they
each
> > died
> >> > between 1945 and 1947. I noted their names and moved on down the line
> > and
> >> > all of a sudden I got an absolutely wierd feeling and the hari on the
> > back
> >> > of my neck started to tingle. I turned around and it looked at these
> > graves
> >> > again. I could figure out what it was about them that was different.
> > Then it
> >> > struck me. all of the other graves in this cemetery were overgrown.
The
> > dirt
> >> > on top of these three graves was relatively fresh and it was obvious
> > where
> >> > the rain the night before had turned some of the dirt ot mud which
had
> > sorta
> >> > molded to the contour of the crown of the grave but none of theese
> >> > three
> >> > graves had anything at all growing on the graves. How does that
happen
> > when
> >> > theses guys have been dead since the 1940's and every other grave out
> > there
> >> > is overgrown?
> >> >
> >> > Very strange.
> >> >
> >> > Deej
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:rkrkg2psprgevsfi1vet6993tno42apv48@4ax.com...
> >> >> no but i did have a friend who was a flamer....
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 15 Sep 2006 17:52:56 +1000, "steve the artguy"
> >> >> <artguy@somethingorother.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Any of you guys have any friends with flaming spaceships?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> http://tinyurl.com/rnqha
> >> >>>
> >> >>> -steve
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
>
>"Uptown Jimmy" <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>And speaking of Iraq, how the hell are we ever gonna spare the man-power
to
>fight other countries while we are so severely over-taxed in Iraq? Is it
any
>accident that Iran has been so loud and obnoxious recently? They know we
are
>compromised tactically. They laugh loud and long every day at our current
>difficulties.
>Jimmy
>
No one hopes I’m wrong about Bush more than I do. But if I’m not wrong, we
will be going into Iran soon. Military capacity or not. :-(
Genefor ... many times poeple.
THIS IS NOT A POLITIK SITE!!!
This is ...Paris site (Music) Remember...
Keep youre Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>
>Thanks for the link. It looks like it might be a more interesting read
>than what you might expect of a book on probability theory.
>
>Without risk management there would be no insurance.
>
>Seems like we have some major risk management headaches ahead in the
>foreign relations area. I don't have much faith that our current
>government understands the situation or is capable of brokering a
>lasting and beneficial peace.
>
>Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>TCB wrote:
>> I never said faith was limited to religion _at all_ because that would
be
>> silly. I only bring this up because I think it's a very important point.
>> Nearly every time you read 'without faith there would be no XXXXXXXX'
it's
>> just not true and XXXXXXXX can get along just fine without faith. Probably
>> the best popular book about risk is called 'Against the Gods' and it's
sort
>> of about this very topic.
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Against-Gods-Remarkable-Story-Risk/dp/ 0471295639/sr=8-1/qid=1158631839/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2500887-29 81628?ie=UTF8&s=books
>>
>> TCB
>>
>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>> There you go, clearly faith is not limited to religion. Although just
as
>>
>>> clearly it's important for religion.
>>>
>>> As to risk, many people have faith that their risks will pan out. Some
>>> people do things because they have such faith. I know people like that.
>>
>>> I am people like that. That doesn't preclude anyone from doing something
>>
>>> for some other reason, of course.
>>>
>>> If you want to say you don't have faith in anything, using any of the
>>> definitions below, then that's your prerogative and I don't have a
>>> problem with that.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Jamie
>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>
>>>
>>> TCB wrote:
>>>> Here's dictionary.com
>>>>
>>>> faith  /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth]
>>>> Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
>>>> –noun
>>>> 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
>>>> 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis
>> would
>>>> be substantiated by fact.
>>>> 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm
>> faith
>>>> of the Pilgrims.
>>>> 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:
>> to
>>>> be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
>>>> 5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
>>>> 6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement,
>>>> etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
>>>> 7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath,
>> allegiance,
>>>> etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
>>>> 8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made
through
>>>> Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see anything in there about risk. My point is that people can
>> do
>>>> the things you're talking about knowing full well they might fail, but
>> do
>>>> them anyway. That's taking a risk, not having faith. I don't have faith
>> but
>>>> I've taken lots of personal and professional risks in my life.
>>>>
>>>> TCB
>>>>
>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>> We can disagree about that but the first line is the dictionary definition.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>> You're confusing 'faith' with 'a willingness to take risks.' Animals
>> take
>>>>>> risks, to get food, create more animals, etc., but I doubt they have
>> faith.
>>>>>> One needs no faith to start businesses, invest money, get married,
etc.
>>>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Faith is complete trust or confidence in something or someone. Religious
>>>>>>> faith is one form of faith but not the only definition of "faith."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example I have faith that if I drop a guitar pick it will find
>> its
>>>>>>> way to the floor based on the gravitational attraction it has to
the
>>>>>>> planet. I have faith that I'll breathe my next breath, that I'll
see
>>>>>>> tomorrow morning. I have faith that other people are put together
much
>>>>>>> like I am and that I can therefore relate to other folks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Without faith, people would not invest money. Without faith people
>> would
>>>>>>> not vote. Without faith people would not start businesses, hire other
>>>>>>> people, raise children. Without faith people would not ride trains,
>> fly
>>>>>>> in planes or drive cars. Without faith no one would investigate
>>>>>>> scientific questions about reality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While you can clearly have faith without religion, you cannot have
>>
>>>>>>> religion without faith. Religion depends on faith that one or more
>>
>>>>>>> deities (good and sometimes bad) exist, that their associated stories
>>>>>>> actually occurred, and often, that there is some sort of afterlife.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, religious people believe in a variety of different deities.
>>>>>>> Even those who believe in the same deity disagree, sometimes violently,
>>>>>>> about the nature of their deity. Religions sometimes even disagree
>> about
>>>>>>> the nature of reality. If you want to base morality strictly on
>>>>>>> religion, and you look around, you'll notice that religion can be
a
>>
>>>>>>> somewhat chaotic basis unless...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, you might say, I want to base morality on MY religion. Well,
you
>>>>>>> just dissed the majority of religions. No problem because THEY ARE
>>
>>>>>>> WRONG. And people who believe in those religions may just be saying
>> the
>>>>>>> same thing about you and your religion. For those religions who are
>> not
>>>>>>> tolerant of other ideas, you may just have started a war.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So perhaps it's BETTER, in our time, to have a system of justice
that
>>>> is
>>>>>>> NOT based on a religion. But one which guarantees everyone the right
>>>> to
>>>>>>> practice the religion of their choice, guarantees other freedoms
such
>>>> as
>>>>>>> we in the USA do in our Bill of Rights, encourages honesty and
>>>>>>> integrity, while enforcing some common sense limits such as no human
>>>>>>> sacrifices, a minimum age for marriage, no incest, no slavery, no
>>>>>>> murder, no rape, no stealing, those sorts of things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is viewed as morality beyond a fair justice system and common
>> sense
>>>>>>> rules of behavior can be left to each freely chosen religion to sort
>>>>>>> out, like whether to restrict diet in some way, whether to wear a
>>>>>>> certain type of clothing, how to pray, etc. But none of these additional
>>>>>>> practices should be imposed on society as a whole.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Golden Rule may also be of use as a basic moral foundation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So yes, you can have a moral system, one that BTW protects the freedom
>>>>>>> to practice religious beliefs (or not), without basing it on any
one
>>>>>>> religion. And it can protect all religions better than a system based
>>>> on
>>>>>>> any one religion (AKA a theocracy).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are other issues surrounding religions, such as the many examples
>>>>>>> of selfless dedication to helping others on the one hand, and hijacked
>>>>>>> religions used to legitimize earthly power structures in other cases.
>>>>>>> Dedric, I look forward to talking with you about the positives and
>>
>>>>>>> negatives of various religions, and where a moral culture ought to
>> go
>>>>>> >from here, whenever we next get together.
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dedric Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hey Jimmy,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No doubt one can be a good person without believing in God - there
>> are
>>>>>> tons
>>>>>>>> of great people with no faith, or very little. That in and of itself
>>>>>> tells
>>>>>>>> me there must be a God so even non-believers would have a strong
sense
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> right and wrong on a societal and even global level.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To walk through some thoughts: with no God, or higher reference
point,
>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> would be considered moral, or at least good? What would one use
to
>>>> decide
>>>>>>>> what is right and wrong?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Laws? Most would agree that we can't legislate morality now, so
with
>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>> basis for what morality is, why would we even bother with laws since
>>>>>>>> everyone would make their own choices anyway?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Intellect? That would simply depend on what one chose to accept
as
>>>>>>>> "intelligent" thought, based completely on opinion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Reasoning and Logic? Logic is determined by a hypothesis that has
>> a
>>>> proven
>>>>>>>> outcome in a given situation. Change the situation, and the reasoning
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> logic behind the "right" or "wrong" could easily change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Experience? What if one's experience is filled with hatred, abuse,
>>>> anger
>>>>>>>> and violence, or worse? Then someone would have to decide whose
experience
>>>>>>>> we would use as a reference point. There would be no guarantee
that
>>>> person
>>>>>>>> or persons had experiences that would be best for the good of the
>> whole.
>>>>>>>> Survival instinct? If it were a reference point, then stealing,
lying,
>>>>>>>> cheating and even killing would be perfectly justified as those
can
>>>> be
>>>>>> means
>>>>>>>> of survival.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why would right and wrong even exist? I would think that the differences
>>>>>>>> between societies' definitions of right and wrong, assuming societies
>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>> existed, would be so drastic we would never have ventured into any
>> form
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> inter-cultural/inter-geographic interaction, much less relationships,
>>>>>>>> diplomacy, collaboration, trade, and open travel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As long as "morals" are only relative to each individual, they aren't
>>>>>>>> absolute morals that would last longer than the time it takes to
make
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> choice. We would just have 6.5 billion opinions. There would only
>>>> be
>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> ever changing perspective on what seems to "make sense" at the time,
>>>> and
>>>>>>>> based on this premise, even "making sense" would vary from person
>> to
>>>> person,
>>>>>>>> day to day, minute to minute. In that case, our prisons would either
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> filled with innocent people simply judged "wrong" at the time because
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> choices didn't match the preferences of the majority; or we wouldn't
>>>> have
>>>>>>>> prisons, or likely even organized societies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But is the majority always right? How would we know if there were
>> no
>>>>>>>> absolutes that supercede the majority in some form?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If there were no right and wrong, there would be no consequences
of
>>>> either,
>>>>>>>> or at least we wouldn't view the outcome as a good or bad consequence
>>>>>> - it
>>>>>>>> would just be another event in time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But by grace and as a gift of freedom, God gave us a choice, both
>> in
>>>> whether
>>>>>>>> to believe in Him and whether to make right or wrong decisions.
With
>>>>>> moral
>>>>>>>> absolutes (God's word) as a reference we have a way to evaluate
drastically
>>>>>>>> differing situations on an equivalent basis; with consistency in
reasoning
>>>>>>>> and compassion; by choice and instinct rather than puppetry. Even
>> when
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> choose to do wrong, He is willing to forgive us. Without that option
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> choose, balanced by God's grace and forgiveness, there would be
no
>> power
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> choosing to believe in Him. That's what makes God a personal and
>> loving
>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>> rather than a dictator or puppet master.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Odd as it may seem to anyone who doesn't believe, I can see God
in
>> the
>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>> that 1) we as a group of intelligent people on this forum can discuss
>>>>>>>> completely opposing opinions and still care enough to consider insulting,
>>>>>>>> belittling, slandering and hating one another an intolerable concept;
>>>>>> and 2)
>>>>>>>> in all likelihood agree that peace and compassion completely trump
>> greed
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> power in importance to life and survival together on this planet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9/17/06 7:12 PM, in article 450df091@linux, "Uptown Jimmy"
>>>>>>>> <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The idea that one needs to believe in a god in order to have a
strong
>>>>>> morals
>>>>>>>>> is absurd, I think.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jimmy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:C1325038.358D%dterry@keyofd.net...
>>>>>>>>>> Gene -
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You probably didn't realize it (so no offense), but your response
>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>>> much confirms my assertion that the tendency of our country and
>> even
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> world society, is to place blame for religious conflict, violence
>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> religiously motivated terrorism anywhere but with the single largest
>>>>>>>>>> growing, and currently most violent religion in the world. We
ignore
>>>>>> car
>>>>>>>>>> bombings, suicide bombers, torched churches, thousands of tortured
>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> murdered, exiled and ostracized people in favor of blaming the
>>>>>>>>>> administration for anything and everything, as if Bush made the
>> Pope
>>>>>> quote
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> Byzantine emperor by going to war in Iraq.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Islam isn't the passive, peaceful, non-threatening, all-accepting
>>>> religion
>>>>>>>>>> our country seems to blindly want to believe. Some western Muslims
>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>> be, but just ask anyone who tried to believe in anything else
in
>> many
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> conservative Islamic countries of the world. I know, have talked
>>>> to,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> have heard missionaries to these countries speak - it's a different
>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>> from the free discussions and widely varying opinions we have
here.
>>>>>>>>> People
>>>>>>>>>> die for converting to anything else, or their families do. At
best,
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> families disown them and they sneak out of the country under threat
&g
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71362 is a reply to message #71361] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 09:19 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
t;>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> death. In fact it's the exact opposite of the "freedom" our country
>>>>>>>>>> continually pushes the limits of. Odd that we would turn on our
>> own
>>>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>>> in favor of supporting, or at least turning a blind eye to this
>> kind
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> ideology, somehow believing that is the more politically correct
>> thing
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The problem I see isn't religion, but a lack of faith in God,
and
>>>> hence
>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> sense of direction and moral guidance. God gives us the choice
>> to
>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>> or not. Based on documents of their activities - in the name
of
>> Allah
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> 9/11 terrorists pretty much broke every one of the 10 commandments
>>>> in
>>>>>> 24
>>>>>>>>>> hours. That may seem a trivial or even silly fact, but there
is
>> a
>>>> sad,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> frightening irony there. Faith in God isn't what one should fear
>>>> -
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>> believing in anything that conveniently appeases one's personal
>> whims
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> is the true danger.... the terrorists proved that in one day.
That
>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>> includes believing in nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As Blaise Pascal once said (paraphrased): if one believes in God
>> and
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> wrong, at worst one has lived a good live and had some false hope
>>>> as
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>>>> of comfort along the way; if one doesn't believe and is wrong,
>> then
>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> best, all is lost for eternity. This is the paradox that we should
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> considering, and yet the most fear-inducing thought is that the
>> President
>>>>>>>>>> might believe in something other than nothing. Is no belief really
>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>> than belief? What reference point for right and wrong accompanies
>>>>>>>>> disbelief
>>>>>>>>>> in anything higher than one's own decisions? What reference point
>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> respect for other people's beliefs accompanies a lack of belief
>> in
>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> guideline for living life and having respect and compassion for
>> others?
>>>>>>>>>> It isn't the administration's fault that the Pope quoted a guy
Islam
>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> like just because he called like he saw it - something we do on
>> this
>>>>>> forum
>>>>>>>>>> every single day, ironically. It also isn't Christianity's intent
>>>> to
>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>> over the world, or the government. Far from it. The only goal
>> is
>>>> to
>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>> people a chance to decide. Yet, those that want to decide to
not
>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>> would rather take that right away and remove Christianity from
public
>>>>>>>>> view.
>>>>>>>>>> The only way to force someone to remove their belief from public
>> in
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> country that promotes the freedom to believe as one wishes, is
to
>>>> outlaw
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> Yet another paradox.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Through our short sighted political glasses we want to see the
world
>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>> black and white, free-will, partisan vote where one's party always
>>>> wins
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> the decisions are always in our favor, but fail to see any validity
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> believing a God that gave us the very moral compass to maintain
>> the
>>>>>>>>> balance
>>>>>>>>>> that kind of choice affords us. In essence we put our trust in
>> the
>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>> thing we prove day in and day out to be one of the most fallible
>>>>>>>>>> characteristics of humanity - political and relativistic ideology.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I guess I ignored my own first comment....sorry about that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I should get back to mourning NI Battery 2's destruction of 10
hours
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>> :-((....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/16/06 9:09 PM, in article 450cbc70$1@linux, "gene Lennon"
>>>>>>>>>> <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't want to start another religious or political thread
-...
>>>>>>>>>>> These are frightening times. While the true neocons in the current
>>>>>>>>>>> administration
>>>>>>>>>>> have had a variety of political, financial and power-based reasons
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> perusing
>>>>>>>>>>> the war against Iraq, the president has had an even scarier motivation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Religion.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you missed it, this week Bush has announced the "Third Great
>>>>>>>>> Awakening"
>>>>>>>>>>> of the international religious struggle. This is a good thing
as
>>>> he
>>>>>> sees
>>>>>>>>>>> it and it has been partially brought on by the new fight against
>>>>>>>>> terrorists
>>>>>>>>>>> (Translation - Due to his good work in God's name). A war that
>> he
>>>>>>>>> depicts
>>>>>>>>>>> as "a confrontation between good and evil."
>>>>>>>>>>> In 2001 he used the word "crusade" and got into quite a bit of
>> trouble
>>>>>>>>> (as
>>>>>>>>>>> has the Pope), but he seems to have the gloves off now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Can anyone imagine a worse direction for the world to be headed?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course he also believes in the Rapture, so things could easily
>>>> go
>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>>> hill from here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> More on the "Third Awakening":
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09 /12/AR2006091201
>>>>>>>>> 59
>>>>>>>>>>> 4_pf.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> `
>>You know, if the Hindus are right, then the man in that video
was Adolf Hitler in the last life, and NOW he must have sex with
THAT woman...
Bends the mind just to think of it huh?
More fun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqqQdRimuG0
DC
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>I think this one is just as much fun:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCODIhAXbQM&NR
>
>.....and these are pretty cool, dont'cha think?
>http://www.armorofgodpjs.com/
>
>Yep....there are whack jobs everywhere out there. I wonder how much of this
>stuff is backlash from the broadcasts we've been seeing for years of the
>automations produced by the madrasas
>
>
>
>
>"gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSP.com> wrote in message news:450f256f$1@linux...
>>
>> "gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSP.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >Sorry - I can't help myself.
>> >
>> >
>> >I assume we all think that schools in the Middle East where children
are
>> >indoctrinated with anti-western ideas mixed with big dose of religious
>zeal
>> >and combined with preaching the virtues of martyrdom are a bad thing.
>right?
>> >
>> >Gene
>> >
>>
>> Right.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM
>
> http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,23663,20437931- 10388,00.html
I was present at a few recording sessions with Willie & friends back in the
early/mid 80's. I thought we smoked up all of the pot on earth then and
there wasn't any left. I've still got a hangover from one of those
sessions.........
As stupid as this was, the stupidity is likely a result of haviung smoked so
much pot so maybe he can plead insanity. I hope he doesn't do time......and
he very possibly coundThere is plenty of finger pointing to go around. No doubt specific
things could have been handled better under the previous government.
The transition of power between the previous and current governments was
pretty rocky, and a "not invented here" syndrome may have doomed the
hand-off of some al-Qaida related work that was in progress.
In any case, no government gets a pass by blaming the previous
government. The current government, for example, failed to follow
through and prioritize the al-Qaida threat ahead of 9/11 and failed to
prevent 9/11; failed to find and capture Bin Laden in Afghanistan;
failed to overcome Taliban control of large areas of Afghanistan;
allowed record drug production to reestablish itself there; failed to
plan for post Iraq invasion problems predicted by their own state
department; and they have continually exploited the "war on terrorism"
for domestic political ends.
You assert the WMDs were there. However Bush's chief inspector, and Bush
himself, say they weren't there after all. It was a bluff. One of the
Iraqi expatriate promoters of the bluff got the ear of our government,
was believed, and, last I heard, had parlayed it into a position of
power in Iraq after the invasion.
The dems you mentioned authorized the military attack on Iraq as a last
resort and I don't believe they were satisfied it was done as such.
Preemptive invasion is new as part of the "Bush (Jr.) Doctrine."
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
DJ wrote:
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:450f3862@linux...
>> Neither, actually. And what we ought to do would depend on the nature of
>> the threat.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> We might want to start with recommendations published in 1999, well
>> before the 9/11 attack.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Terroris m
>>
>> We can disagree about whether our current policy is one of overreacting
>> or not. We can probably really disagree about the newly minted
>> preemptive attack policy. :^)
>
> I don't think there is any newly minted attack policy. There has always been
> the *clear and present danger* perogative but it needs to be based on
> accurate intelligence. Had this been available, then I doubt that Bush,
> Kerry, Kennedy Pelosi and the rest would have authorized the invasion of
> Iraq, or perhaps they would have been able to find the WMD's before they
> were shipped out of the country or hidden. I just find it hard to stomach
> the hypocracy of the democrats whose policies neutered our intelligence
> services in the '90's when they trun around and blame Bush for the decisions
> made based on the intellegence blunders they created in the first place.
>
> Regards,
>
> Deej
>
>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>>> I don't see us overreacting Jamie. However, if there is indication of
> some
>>> sort of major threat, do we run and tell the NY times or do we blow the
>>> threat away before it pays us a visit?
>>>
>>>
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:450f0b12@linux...
>>>> Of course they came out with a blustery ultimatum. That's not news,
> it's
>>>> an old pattern. It works for them to sit back and suggest that others
> do
>>>> something via terror-grams such as this. If it makes you afraid as
> well,
>>>> my guess is they would see that as a bonus.
>>>>
>>>> By goading the USA into overreacting it helps them grow, raise money
> and
>>>> convince others to actually see us as evil and act accordingly. It
>>>> works, we keep falling for it. OTOH, for those here with a declared
>>>> interest in emptying the US treasury, it's likewise beneficial to have
>>>> the specter of an enemy out there. Fear sells.
>>>>
>>>> We have yet to actually declare war on anyone in this whole mess. How
> do
>>>> you declare war on a tactic?
>>>>
>>>> Forced conversion and head taxes would go over like a lead balloon in
>>>> the USA. Not gonna happen. We're far more sectarian than, say, Iraq.
>>>>
>>>> Responsible leadership is needed in the world to calm extremist
>>>> tendencies on all sides and help rational people who are trying to get
>>>> by in worsening times. At the same time we need to be, and are
>>>> attempting to be, vigilant against any self righteous group with
>>>> fantasies of violence in the USA.
>>>>
>>>> Any rush to some sort of "holy war" is irrational. There is nothing
> holy
>>>> about war.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>> I haven't seen us react with irrationality.............yet. Al Quaeda
>>> just
>>>>> came out with an ultimatim stating that it's full on war now and the
>>> west
>>>>> will be destroyed. The only way to save ourselves is to convert to
>>> Islam. So
>>>>> where to you draw the line between irrationality and self defense?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> news:450ee7ef@linux...
>>>>>> Let's keep from reacting to irrationality with irrationality of our
>>> own.
>>>>>> There's a lot of fear mongering. Chicken Little is back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>>> It doesn't matter at all whether this was the Pope. The bottom line
> is
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> it is rationality as opposed to irrationality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>> news:450ec970@linux...
>>>>>>>> The Catholic church doesn't speak for Christianity. Certainly not
> for
>>>>>>>> Lutherans, and for good reason.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A Pope criticizing other religions (even other Christian sects,
> even
>>>>>>>> other Catholics) is nothing new. Certainly much harsher things have
>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> said about Islam by some (not all) extreme fundamentalist
> Christians.
>>>>>>>> And certainly much harsher things have been said by certain
> extremist
>>>>>>>> Islamists about Christianity. The more extremist of both camps seem
>>> to
>>>>>>>> be spoiling to relive the crusades. With some of the more power
>>> hungry
>>>>>>>> ready to endanger civilization by attempting to incite religious
> wars
>>>>>>>> for their own questionable ends.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's a vast generalization to say the "the left" or "secularists"
> or
>>>>>>>> even "Christians" are demanding an apology from the Pope. I think a
>>>>>>>> whole lot of people think the Pope can say whatever he wants. It
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>> matter to most non-Catholics in the USA and in reality, Papal
>>>>>>>> declarations are ignored by a fair number of Catholics here, too.
>>>>>>>> Obviously some Moslems are upset in some places, but how deep does
>>> that
>>>>>>>> go? When black churches were burning in the USA, it would have been
>>> an
>>>>>>>> exaggeration to blame everyone in the USA for that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to the Catholic church which only very
>>>>>>>> recently apologized for the oppression of Galileo. The church hung
> on
>>>>>>>> tenaciously to the dogma of an earth-centered view of the universe
>>>>> while
>>>>>>>> denying the heliocentric theory of Copernicus, which describes the
>>>>>>>> actual way the solar system works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It also extends to a few Christian sects who, feeling similarly
>>>>>>>> insecure, tenaciously cling to the notion that the earth is only
>>> about
>>>>>>>> 6,000 years old, by virtue of the biblical interpretations and
> clever
>>>>>>>> (at the time) calculations of an Irish Bishop several centuries
> ago,
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> in the face of solid current scientific evidence to the contrary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some (not all) Christian churches
> who,
>>>>>>>> feeling similarly insecure, deny the solid and ever-mounting
> evidence
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> evolution, responding with dogma in psuedo-scientific clothing, and
>>> who
>>>>>>>> seek to water down scientific education in the USA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to power hungry industries who pay big
>>> bucks
>>>>>>>> to spread denial about global warming for short term gain. Who push
>>> to
>>>>>>>> control oil in the middle east with force. With our guns blazing,
> our
>>>>>>>> soldiers dying and our debt rising astronomically. And who
> sometimes
>>>>>>>> hide behind Christianity to do so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some neoconservatives who find ways
> to
>>>>>>>> pretend that everyone is aligning against Christianity. And in
>>>>> spreading
>>>>>>>> this fear attempt to incite Christians to vote to keep them in
> power.
>>>>>>>> And in so pandering, help to continue the denial of reason and the
>>>>> focus
>>>>>>>> on the use of force.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not that I'll change your mind, DC, so go ahead and declare
> victory.
>>>>> ;^)
>>>>>>>> Have a great week!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DC wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I thought this was worth reading if any of you are interested.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Have a great Monday!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Unholy Alliance Rolls Over the Pope
>>>>>>>>> By Andrew Walden
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In what has suddenly been made into a highly controversial
>>>>>>>>> speech, the day after September 11, at Bavaria’s University of
>>>>>>>>> Regensberg, Pope Benedict describes Christian belief in a God
>>>>>>>>> whose words and acts are bound by reason, truth and the law of
>>>>>>>>> non-contradiction. Benedict contrasts this with Islamic belief
>>>>>>>>> in a God not bound by anything—including his own words. Benedict
>>>>>>>>> further contrasts Christian belief with that of secular humanists
>>>>>>>>> who see reason as being completely unbound of God.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In response, both Islamists and secularists have demanded the
>>>>>>>>> Pope apologize. Benedict’s speech is a work of enlightened
>>>>>>>>> genius. He has clearly laid out the differences between
>>>>>>>>> Christian culture and Islamic culture and the basis of the clash
>>>>>>>>> of civilizations we now experience as the War on Terror. His
>>>>>>>>> analysis also explains the underlying cause of the alliance
>>>>>>>>> between the western Left and the Islamofascist Right.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Islamist reaction focuses on one sentence in the speech.
>>>>>>>>> Reaching back to 1391, Benedict quotes Byzantine Emperor Manuel
>>>>>>>>> II: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there
>>>>>>>>> you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command
>>>>>>>>> to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Four days later, according to AP: “Pakistan's legislature
>>>>>>>>> unanimously condemned Pope Benedict XVI. Lebanon's top Shiite
>>>>>>>>> cleric demanded an apology. And in Turkey, the ruling party
>>>>>>>>> likened the pontiff to Hitler and Mussolini and accused him of
>>>>>>>>> reviving the mentality of the Crusades.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “Across the Islamic world Friday, Benedict's remarks on Islam and
>>>>>>>>> jihad in a speech in Germany unleashed a torrent of rage that
>>>>>>>>> many fear could burst into violent protests like those that
>>>>>>>>> followed publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Reuters quoted other sources expressing fears for the Pope’s
>>>>>>>>> safety and even fear of an attack on Vatican City.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Islamist reaction proves Manuel II’s 600-year-old point. The
>>>>>>>>> reaction is not one of anger but a calculated attempt to force
>>>>>>>>> the Pope to parrot the PC line on Islam. Since Islam need not be
>>>>>>>>> internally consistent and it is not bound by reason, it’s only
>>>>>>>>> objective can be to assert the power of a God who is so
>>>>>>>>> transcendent that He is not bound by anything. If man is created
>>>>>>>>> in God’s image then by extension Islamic man is not bound by
>>>>>>>>> anything. (This explains the predilection on the part of some
>>>>>>>>> Muslims to lie.) Islamists are not responding to any ‘offense’ to
>>>>>>>>> their non-existent morality. They are asserting the only
>>>>>>>>> ‘morality’ they have—the will to power.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “Will to Power” is a key element of Nietzsche ’s philosophy—hence
>>>>>>>>> the root of the term, Islamofascist. Moreover the Western “Left’
>>>>>>>>> is today guided far more by Nietzsche existentialist thought than
>>>>>>>>> by Marxist thought—hence the alliance between the Western “Left”
>>>>>>>>> and the Islamofascist ‘Right.’
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Reuters quotes an Indian Muslim leader doing precisely what
>>>>>>>>> Manuel II said they would: “Syed Ahmed Bukhari, the chief cleric
>>>>>>>>> of New Delhi's historic Jama Masjid, India's largest mosque,
>>>>>>>>> extolled Muslims to ‘respond in a manner which forces the Pope to
>>>>>>>>> apologize.’” Note they intend to use “force” not reason.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Reuters quotes an unnamed diplomat pointing out the Pope was,
>>>>>>>>> “calling a spade a spade”.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The secularist mouthpiece, New York Times,editorializes, “Pope
>>>>>>>>> Benedict XVI has insulted Muslims….” This is false. The Pope’s
>>>>>>>>> description of the Islamic God as being unbound by reason is not
>>>>>>>>> an insult, it is an Islamic article of faith. What Muslims and
>>>>>>>>> secularists fear is the Pope’s decision to choose to enter
>>>>>>>>> dialogue asserting his belief in Christianity. How dare he not
>>>>>>>>> “apologize” for being a Christian? That is the so-called
>>>>>>>>> “insult.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One might “reasonably” ask when will Muslims “apologize” for
>>>>>>>>> being Muslim? But they are not bound by reason to the point is
>>>>>>>>> lost on them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Amazingly the Times continues: “Muslim leaders the world over
>>>>>>>>> have demanded apologies… For many Muslims, holy war — jihad — is
>>>>>>>>> a spiritual struggle, and not a call to violence.” In saying
>>>>>>>>> this, the Times implicitly recognizes the Islamists are waging a
>>>>>>>>> propaganda jihad against the Pope and by extension against
>>>>>>>>> Christianity—and they explicitly endorse and join this jihad.
>>>>>>>>> The Times is saying to Islamists, ‘we can join your ‘spiritual’
>>>>>>>>> jihad, but not your violent jihad.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Times editors are living in a fool’s paradise. The
>>>>>>>>> “spiritual” non-violent jihad of propaganda is merely the flip
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71363 is a reply to message #71359] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 09:19 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
/>
>>>>>>>>> side of the violent jihad. Nowhere is that more clear than in
>>>>>>>>> the Islamist reaction to the Pope.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With the Pope scheduled to visit Turkey in November the Islamists
>>>>>>>>> are rejecting any apology from Vatican spokespersons and demand
>>>>>>>>> to hear from the Pope himself. This would place raging mobs of
>>>>>>>>> semi-literate Islamist thugs in the position of forcing the
>>>>>>>>> leader of Christendom to bow before them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In this demand for submission they are joined by the secularist
>>>>>>>>> mouthpiece. In its September 16 edition the Times editorializes:
>>>>>>>>> “He needs to offer a deep and persuasive apology…” The
>>>>>>>>> secularists too seek the Pope’s submission. Like the Islamists,
>>>>>>>>> the secularists are driven only by their will to power. While
>>>>>>>>> the Islamists represent their demented version of
>>>>>>>>> God--unrestrained by reason, the secularists represent their
>>>>>>>>> demented version of reason--unrestrained by God. They are united
>>>>>>>>> by their self-worshipping world view.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It should be noted that the carefully staged “anger’ from the
>>>>>>>>> Islamic world does not condemn Benedict’s characterization of
>>>>>>>>> Islam as a religion where God’s “will is not bound up with any of
>>>>>>>>> our categories, even that of rationality...(The Islamic) God is
>>>>>>>>> not bound even by his own word….” This is not seen as an insult.
>>>>>>>>> Islam embraces this description. In offering this description of
>>>>>>>>> Islam, Benedict refers to the views of leading modern French
>>>>>>>>> Islamist R. Arnaldez as discussed in the writings of Professor
>>>>>>>>> Theodore Khoury of Munster.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Likewise the secularists express no dismay at the pope’s
>>>>>>>>> characterization of a secularist as: “(A) subject (who) then
>>>>>>>>> decides, on the basis of his experiences, what he considers
>>>>>>>>> tenable in matters of religion, and the subjective ‘conscience’
>>>>>>>>> becomes the sole arbiter of what is ethical.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Benedict asserts that without reason, or without God, there can
>>>>>>>>> be no modern system of morality. He explains, “In this
>>>>>>>>> way…ethics and religion lose their power to create a community
>>>>>>>>> and become (instead) a completely personal matter.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Both Islamist and secularist seek to break God and reason apart.
>>>>>>>>> Each claims superiority over the Christian West. They believe
>>>>>>>>> absolute moral license makes them powerful. As globalization
>>>>>>>>> carries the Western tradition of reason throughout the world,
>>>>>>>>> both are in decline.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Where the force of reason is defeated, Islamist and secularist
>>>>>>>>> will meet in combat, just as Hitler’s fascists broke their pact
>>>>>>>>> with the Soviet Union, invading in June, 1941 after the collapse
>>>>>>>>> of the allied forces on the western front.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What the Islamists and the New York Times both fear is having to
>>>>>>>>> reply to the Pope’s key point, borrowed from the Byzantine
>>>>>>>>> Emperor: “‘Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos (word or
>>>>>>>>> reason) is contrary to the nature of God,’.… It is to this great
>>>>>>>>> logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in
>>>>>>>>> the dialogue of cultures.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Their fear of reason can only lead the world to disaster.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>
>"gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSP.com> wrote:
>
>"gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSP.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Sorry – I can’t help myself.
>>
>>
>>I assume we all think that schools in the Middle East where children are
>>indoctrinated with anti-western ideas mixed with big dose of religious
zeal
>>and combined with preaching the virtues of martyrdom are a bad thing… right?
>>
>>Gene
>>
>
>Right.
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM
It's a twisting of the truth! The children are not being taut to kill people,
they are being taught to be an army for Christ, to spread the word of god.
The terms they are using like soldiers, are a figure of speech. It should
be soul-diers
Of corse they would inter view an anti Christian to get their twisted take
on it. I know your on the left coast, but come on Gene!"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSP.com> wrote:
>>
>>"gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSP.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Sorry – I can’t help myself.
>>>
>>>
>>>I assume we all think that schools in the Middle East where children are
>>>indoctrinated with anti-western ideas mixed with big dose of religious
>zeal
>>>and combined with preaching the virtues of martyrdom are a bad thing…
right?
>>>
>>>Gene
>>>
>>
>>Right.
>>
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM
>
>It's a twisting of the truth! The children are not being taut to kill people,
>they are being taught to be an army for Christ, to spread the word of god.
> The terms they are using like soldiers, are a figure of speech. It should
>be soul-diers
>
>Of corse they would inter view an anti Christian to get their twisted take
>on it. I know your on the left coast, but come on Gene!
>
Lov mi spell Cheack, woorks gooodIranian Leader Urges More Papal Protests
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060919/D8K7OPTO0.htmlThis is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Gene and all others with comments,
Is the Neve 33609 even worth the bother?
I want to use the $50 coupon on a plug. I'm strongly considering the =
Precision Multiband.
If it sounds as good as it looks and functions as simply as it appears I =
think it could make
a difference in my lower end mastering projects (the only ones I do). =
Now I'm using Paris EQ,=20
NoLimit, Paris Comp, but no real pristine compression. The Waves =
multiband is average at best=20
to my ear. That's all I've got around here in higher end software. =
I've delved into the Waves Ren Comp=20
a few times too. It's okay. The Sakis method is too involved for my =
limited mastering hours. I typically
have to get a CD done in less than four hours to make it worth the =
client's/my while.
For $200 or less is there a better choice for an easy to use multiband =
comp? Otherwise I might spring for the=20
1073 but I have two Neve pres here in hardware form that I track with =
alot.
Is the UAD 140 way better than the SIR plates? If not I'll pass on that =
too.
I'm thinking the Cambridge EQ (just got that and like it) with the =
Precision Multiband Comp would be a=20
fine addition to a sweeter sounding master and even individual tracks =
here and there. =20
All opinions welcome!
Tom
"gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote in message =
news:450f504d$1@linux...
"Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>DJ,
>Have you had a chance to hear it yet?
>Tom
Not DJ but...
I had it for a few hours before my temp license timed out prematurely. =
Sounds
nice and fairly close to the real thing. I did a short comparison to =
my Portico5043.
The UAD has a similar flavor and controls the dynamics in a very =
similar
way, but it is missing the creamy sound of the hardware - And I hate =
people
that describe hardware as creamy :=AC)=20
Since the plug requires an entire card or it must be rendered, I don't =
think
I will get it. I might as well render the real thing.
Gene
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C6DB9D.8E0553A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gene and all others with =
comments,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is the Neve 33609 even worth the=20
bother?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I want to use the $50 coupon on a =
plug. I'm=20
strongly considering the Precision Multiband.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If it sounds as good as it looks and =
functions as=20
simply as it appears I think it could make</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>a difference in my lower end mastering =
projects=20
(the only ones I do). Now I'm using Paris EQ, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NoLimit, Paris Comp, </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>but no real pristine compression. The Waves multiband is =
average at=20
best </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to my ear. That's all I've got =
around here in=20
higher end software. I've delved </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>into the=20
Waves Ren Comp </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>a few times too. It's okay. =
The Sakis=20
method is too involved for my limited mastering hours. I=20
typically</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>have to get a CD done in less than four =
hours to=20
make it worth the client's/my while.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For $200 or less is there a better =
choice for=20
an easy to use multiband comp? Otherwise I might spring for the=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1073 but I have two Neve </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>pres here in hardware form that I track with alot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is the UAD 140 way better than the SIR=20
plates? If not I'll pass on that too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm thinking the Cambridge EQ (just got =
that and=20
like it) with the Precision Multiband Comp would be a </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>fine addition to a </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>sweeter sounding master and even individual tracks here and =
there. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All opinions welcome!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"gene Lennon" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com">glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com</A>&g=
t;=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:450f504d$1@linux">news:450f504d$1@linux</A>...</DIV><BR>"Tom=
Bruhl"=20
<<A href=3D"mailto:arpegio@comcast.net">arpegio@comcast.net</A>> =
wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>>DJ,<BR>>Have you had a chance to hear =
it=20
yet?<BR>>Tom<BR><BR>Not DJ but...<BR><BR>I had it for a few hours =
before my=20
temp license timed out prematurely. Sounds<BR>nice and fairly close to =
the=20
real thing. I did a short comparison to my Portico5043.<BR>The UAD has =
a=20
similar flavor and controls the dynamics in a very similar<BR>way, but =
it is=20
missing the creamy sound of the hardware - And I hate =
people<BR>that=20
describe hardware as creamy :=AC) <BR>Since the plug requires an =
entire card or=20
it must be rendered, I don't think<BR>I will get it. I might as well =
render=20
the real thing.<BR>Gene<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR>I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, =
and=20
you?<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html">http://www.polesoft.com/refer=
..html</A> </FONT></DIV></BODY ></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C6DB9D.8E0553A0--instigator...;o)
On 19 Sep 2006 11:56:40 +1000, "gene Lennon"
<glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>"Mike R." <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Hope it's ok to post this question here.
>>A friend of mine is going to buy a new Mac laptop. She is running Cubase
>SE
>>on her current 'pute and wants a bigger faster, but portable, machine.
>I'm
>>most interested in your thoughts regarding both an audio card and what sort
>>of external audio drive she could/should use. She generally won't be
>>recording more than two tracks at a time, four absolute max. I don't think
>>she'd be mixing more than eight tracks at any one time either. I will
>>certainly be surfing myself to see what's out there, but I'd take you folk's
>>recommendations, even over say... Mr. Spock's --although he did some pretty
>>nifty stuff analyzing those whale sounds.
>>Thank you, thank you.
>>MR
>>
>>
>I would go with a MacBook Pro and run Cubase under XP/ Bootcamp for the next
>few months. The UB version should be out soon. For just a few tracks the
>internal drive will be fine – even better if she goes with a 7200 drive.
>This is an extremely fast box, and with an external drive you can do serious
>recording, editing and mixing on it.
>For simple needs, I would suggest an M-Audio Firewire interface. Low cost,
>good drivers, works Mac and PC fine and she can even go to Pro Tools M-Powered
>later if she likes. (Did I say that?)
>GeneWhat are you doing checking out Aussie newspapers, Deej?
Looking to move over here?--
Martin Harrington
www.lendanear-sound.com
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
news:450f87ac$1@linux...
> http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,23663,20437931- 10388,00.html
>
> I was present at a few recording sessions with Willie & friends back in
> the
> early/mid 80's. I thought we smoked up all of the pot on earth then and
> there wasn't any left. I've still got a hangover from one of those
> sessions.........
>
> As stupid as this was, the stupidity is likely a result of haviung smoked
> so
> much pot so maybe he can plead insanity. I hope he doesn't do
> time......and
> he very possibly cound
>
>
>Don't you think this is just a marketing ploy? Duh
"Martin Harrington" <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>What are you doing checking out Aussie newspapers, Deej?
>Looking to move over here?--
>Martin Harrington
>www.lendanear-sound.com
>
>"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
>news:450f87ac$1@linux...
>> http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,23663,20437931- 10388,00.html
>>
>> I was present at a few recording sessions with Willie & friends back in
>> the
>> early/mid 80's. I thought we smoked up all of the pot on earth then and
>> there wasn't any left. I've still got a hangover from one of those
>> sessions.........
>>
>> As stupid as this was, the stupidity is likely a result of haviung smoked
>> so
>> much pot so maybe he can plead insanity. I hope he doesn't do
>> time......and
>> he very possibly cound
>>
>>
>>
>
>That's a pathetic answer. Yeah we don't need no stinking diplomats! Everyone
else is nuts, crazy and a lunatic. DJ, I thought you had better answers
than that.
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>I think I answered yur question as much as I can by stat8ing that a diplomat
>cannot do anything unless there is willingness to participate in a
>meaningful and sincere dialog......so keeping in mind that a negotiator
must
>have credibility and those for whom he is negotiating must have some sort
of
>track record of credibility, I ask you.......who do you think would be a
>credible negotiator for Iran, North Korea, Syria?
>
>
>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450f310e$1@linux...
>>
>> What? It's a simple question. Who is a real diplomat in today's world?
>>
>>
>> "justcron" <parisnews@hydrorecords.com> wrote:
>> >Dunno, but jump into your next point cuz he's had a lot to say lately.
>> >
>> >"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450f2399$1@linux...
>> >>
>> >> Anyone, anyone? Beuller?
>> >>
>> >> So who would you consider to be equal to or better than Kissinger in
>> >> today's
>> >> world?
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>Huh??
--
Martin Harrington
www.lendanear-sound.com
"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450fcbf1$1@linux...
>
> Don't you think this is just a marketing ploy? Duh
>
> "Martin Harrington" <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>What are you doing checking out Aussie newspapers, Deej?
>>Looking to move over here?--
>>Martin Harrington
>>www.lendanear-sound.com
>>
>>"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
>>news:450f87ac$1@linux...
>>> http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,23663,20437931- 10388,00.html
>>>
>>> I was present at a few recording sessions with Willie & friends back in
>
>>> the
>>> early/mid 80's. I thought we smoked up all of the pot on earth then and
>>> there wasn't any left. I've still got a hangover from one of those
>>> sessions.........
>>>
>>> As stupid as this was, the stupidity is likely a result of haviung
>>> smoked
>
>>> so
>>> much pot so maybe he can plead insanity. I hope he doesn't do
>>> time......and
>>> he very possibly cound
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSP.com> wrote:
>>
>>"gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSP.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Sorry – I can’t help myself.
>>>
>>>
>>>I assume we all think that schools in the Middle East where children are
>>>indoctrinated with anti-western ideas mixed with big dose of religious
>zeal
>>>and combined with preaching the virtues of martyrdom are a bad thing…
right?
>>>
>>>Gene
>>>
>>
>>Right.
>>
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM
>
>It's a twisting of the truth! The children are not being taut to kill people,
>they are being taught to be an army for Christ, to spread the word of god.
> The terms they are using like soldiers, are a figure of speech. It should
>be soul-diers
>
>Of corse they would inter view an anti Christian to get their twisted take
>on it. I know your on the left coast, but come on Gene!
>
So you are OK with what Becky Fischer is doing?
Before you answer, here is another quote from her that has been recorded
by the press with her permission.
"I want to teach kids t
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71365 is a reply to message #71363] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 10:13 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
e film is
intentionally twisted by the film-makers if ol’ Becky thinks it’s fair and
unbiased.Remember when Willie pulled off to the side of the road a couple of years
back 'cause he had a bit too much to smoke and decided to sleep it off?
The state trooper that busted him confiscated a half a joint from his ashtray,
and asked "do you have any more of this Mr. Nelson?". Willie's reply was
"Officer, that's all you'll need...". :)
Willie said in an interview that he had smoked pot every day if his life
since 1956, with the exception of three months when he was preparing to test
for his black belt. DJ--I was at his house a couple of times back in that
ere also, and he always had a salad bowl full of buds on the table...
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
> http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,23663,20437931- 10388,00.html
>
>I was present at a few recording sessions with Willie & friends back in
the
>early/mid 80's. I thought we smoked up all of the pot on earth then and
>there wasn't any left. I've still got a hangover from one of those
>sessions.........
>
>As stupid as this was, the stupidity is likely a result of haviung smoked
so
>much pot so maybe he can plead insanity. I hope he doesn't do time......and
>he very possibly cound
>
>
>First, if the jihadis were as loudly condemned by Muslims as the
crowd you list below are condemned by Christians, we would have
a more peaceful world, wouldn't we?
I did live sound for a group once that had a bunch of little kids so
worked up with a witches brew of extreme patriotism and emotional
faith that several kids fainted. The bigshot who ran the event
actually yelled at me "LOUDER LOUDER". Today, I would power
down and walk away from such an event and tell them to keep their
damn money. These people are essentially atheists in that they
nearly zero faith in God to convict people and win them over, so
they must do it themselves with blubbering and manipulation.
But why do you guys need to lie about it? They weren't worshipping
to Bush, they were *praying* for him! Don't you think he NEEDS
it??
I abhor the connecting of faith to ultra-patriotism, because
the govt. is so fallible and may betray us at any time. God is not
fallible, and faith and country should never be conflated.
So, yeah, Gene, there are extremists, but what I want to know is
why you lie about them and accept lies about Christians so easily?
You apprently hate Christians much more than Muslims, since your
criticisms are only pointed at Christians.
C'mon, let's hear you have a go at the Muslims for a bit!
Need some websites? movies? comedy? Think there is a lack of
evidence of the evil they have planned for you and yours, and have
been acting on for 30 years now?
Are you unable to criticize Muslims? Have you drunken the liberal
kool-aid?
expiring minds want to know!
DC
"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>How about Fred Phelps, or some of the Christian/Skinheads, or abortion bombers?
>Are you completely unwilling to admit that there are some extremists in
the
>Christian movement?
>Talk about “come on”.
>
>Gene
>They film is more fair than the TV show about the film that you
posted from YouTube, for sure. That TV special was dripping
with sarcasm and only interivewed obvious secularists. And yes,
the film either misunderstood several things going on or deliberately
misrepresented them.
That camp, and her tactics have been roundly and loudly criticized
by many Christians. Were you aware of this?
"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>P.S. Becky Fischer is promoting the film. She has said that that film accurately
>portrays the activates at the camp and she does not understand why people
>would be upset by what they see in the film because the world needs someone
>like her to straighten out our children and form an army against all the
>evil in the world (all non-believers). So who are you to say the film is
>intentionally twisted by the film-makers if ol’ Becky thinks it’s fair and
>unbiased.Does anybody remember that post from Chuck? ;o)
Just a little hint. I love talking politics as much as the next man of course...
but I refrain these days due to my role as head newsgroup dude...
Mind you we seem to be staying fairly civil about things generally which
is great to see. No intolerable meaningless abuse that I've noticed. Perhaps
we could move some of the politics on to the General group though if we want
to keep it going. I know some on the group aren't fans of politics in the
main group, which I understand and appreciate.
Finish your discussions if you feel the need, but any new threads might be
better placed in General if that's cool... I don't want to dampen the discussion.
Just don't want the audio discussion on the main group getting lost in the
politics...
Thought I'd better say something as it's showing no signs of easing off...
...don't mean to spoil the party. ;o)
Cheers,
Kim."Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Gene and all others with comments,
>Is the Neve 33609 even worth the bother?
>
>Tom
>
If I didn’t have the Portico, I might consider it but I am a glutton. I have
many software tools that I have purchased that I use infrequently or never,
and if I only bought what I really needed, I would only have a fraction of
my current tools. Not bragging or proud of this, I’m just a sucker for this
shit. I’ve heard Paris-only tracks that sound great.
I’m on a ten-step program - Right!
Gene
Actually, the only way to significantly improve the native sound of Paris
is with improved converters, hardware and clocking. Plugins always seem to
move the sound “laterally” to me. Not up the scale of quality. A few exceptions,
yes, but not many. The Paris compressors are a weakness so any good plugin
will help, but good hardware is still better.Thought my last post's title might not attract the right attention, and couple
be bothered actually deleting it. ;o)
Please read the "Friends back in Ireland" post if you didn't already...
Cheers,
Kim."Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>and couple
>be bothered actually deleting it. ;o)
Couple be bothered? Try couldn't be bothered...
....is it dislexia if you just type the complete wrong word? What's with
that?!?
Cheers,
Kim.HI,
It only matters under 2 scenarios.
1. Playing VST INstruments in real time.
2. Processing native effects on a live input.
Otherwise you can set the buffer high to free up resources.
When using Direct monitoring the software monitor inputs at the hardware
level so no latency.
ADC becomes more useful in the mixing stage Cubase will keep all the
plug ins including external plug ins sample accurate. Paris will do this
only with its EDS effects not with native. Actually most programs didn't
only had this type of compensation on inserts only forever. Steinberg
were the first to figure out how to do it across the whole path. I wish
Steinberg would stop with all the innovation stuff so I wouldn't have to
keep track of all the new features the competitors have in their
programs. :0
Chris
Uptown Jimmy wrote:
> What do buffer and latency matter for anymore, what with ADC on native
> systems?
>
> I seriously have no idea, being a Paris junkie since the beginning.
>
> Jimmy
>
> "Chris Ludwig" <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote in message
> news:450f2d33@linux...
>
>>HI Mike,
>>
>>
>>Mike R. wrote:
>>
>>>Hope it's ok to post this question here.
>>>A friend of mine is going to buy a new Mac laptop. She is running
>
> Cubase SE
>
>>>on her current
>>
>>No Universal Binary yet for Cubase not till 4.0 comes out so I don't
>>think it will work if it is a Intel based one.
>>
>>'pute and wants a bigger faster, but portable, machine.
>>
>>
>>
>>I'm
>>
>>>most interested in your thoughts regarding both an audio card and what
>
> sort
>
>>>of external audio drive she could/should use.
>>
>>On a budget the Presonus Firebox is a great unit. If she want quality
>>Mic-Pres and AD/DA, etc then the RME Fireface 400.
>>Also the Mackie Spike or Onyx 400f might be a good option sense they
>>come with the Tracktion software already.
>>
>>If she is only recording 2 tracks or so then there is no need for an
>>external drive. It would only be needed fore backs ups but the projects
>>would more than likely be small enough to easily fit on DVDRW.
>>Using an internal 80 or 100 gig drive on the PC would easily allow for
>>32 tracks of 24/48 at 3 ms buffer on the RME Fireface 400. If you raise
>>the buffer then 48 tracks should be no problem.
>>
>>
>> She generally won't be
>>
>>>recording more than two tracks at a time, four absolute max. I don't
>
> think
>
>>>she'd be mixing more than eight tracks at any one time either. I will
>>>certainly be surfing myself to see what's out there, but I'd take you
>
> folk's
>
>>>recommendations, even over say... Mr. Spock's --although he did some
>
> pretty
>
>>>nifty stuff analyzing those whale sounds.
>>>Thank you, thank you.
>>>MR
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The current laptops well use the new Core 2 Duo CPUs.
>>
>
> http://www.adkproaudio.com/systems/saved_system.cfm?systemid =103&saved_id=89
> 35
>
>>:)
>>
>>Chris
>>
>>
>>--
>>Chris Ludwig
>>
>>ADK Pro Audio
>>(859) 635-5762
>>www.adkproaudio.com
>>chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>
>
>
--
Chris Ludwig
ADK
chrisl@adkproaudio.com <mailto:chrisl@adkproaudio.com>
www.adkproaudio.com <http://www.adkproaudio.com/>
(859) 635-5762I was taking that for granted, since we all pulled together to help fund
Chuck's efforts. I have no problems paying for upgrades that are delivered.
AA
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
news:450f1a7f@linux...
> Do we have any money to pay him? I don't think he's gonna work for free.
>
> ;oP
>
> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote in message
> news:450e9b9e@linux...
>> Find out if dude is interested in writing a windows Vista and OS-x driver
> :)
>>
>> AA
>>
>>
>> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
>> news:450e471d$1@linux...
>> > He wrote the software program that MRI machines are using these days.
>> > Very
>> > interesting guy. I'm mastering a project for his wife. He was pretty
>> > interested in the Paris program. His wife is pretty well known in the
>> > LA
>> > music community and he digs this stuff. I may ask him if he could write
> a
>> > delay compensation applet for Paris. He really got a chuckle out of
>> > Frankencomp.......said he's built a few similar monstrosities himself.
>> > They
>> > will be back over here tomorrow night.
>> >
>> > ;o)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>Kissinger?!? A great diplomat? A great diplomat can create a strategic victory
from a position of weakness. Kissinger wrought strategic disasters out of
positions of incomparable strength. Extending the Vietnam war into Cambodia
and Laos, running operation Condor to destabilize a moderately leftist regime
in Chile, blanket support for Suharto in Indonesia in the 70's. These just
come off the top of my head as places that destroyed US credibility in places
where it was unnecessary to be involved at all.
TCB
"John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>
>Anyone, anyone? Beuller?
>
>So who would you consider to be equal to or better than Kissinger in today's
>world?"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>Are you unable to criticize Muslims? Have you drunken the liberal
>kool-aid?
>
>expiring minds want to know!
>
>DC
>
I posted the link about Becky Fischer for a specific reason. It was not to
embarrass or criticize any true believers, but to point out that some extremists
exist on the Christian side. My Point?
It is unfair to paint the modern Christian movement with the brush of Becky
Fischer, or Fred Phelps. The Christian movement may have a few extremists,
but they do not represent the majority of good people following the Christian
cause. Funny, because that is the exact point I am also trying to make about
the modern Moslem movement, which is not just a bunch of knife wielding maniacs.
It is largely a mixture of fundamentalists combined with many who want to
see more progressive reform in the Moslem church.
Of the over one billion Moslems in the world today perhaps 1% are extremist
to the point of violence. That’s still a large and dangerous number. It only
takes one with a WMD to cause great harm. But what about the 99%?
I am still waiting for someone to answer my question about what we should
do if we suffer a major attack and a Moslem extremist group takes credit.
Should we kill 1,000,000 people? How about 1,000,000,000?
I do condemn Moslem radical violence . Killing a Nun because of what the
Pope said is unconscionable but it is not all Moslems.
P.S. Please point out my lies. I may be delusional, but I think I am trying
to bring some balance to a very one-sided and highly charged issue.
GeneOk, so who do you consider to be a great diplomats period?Marketing for a new album or tour!
"Martin Harrington" <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>Huh??
>--
>Martin Harrington
>www.lendanear-sound.com
>
>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450fcbf1$1@linux...
>>
>> Don't you think this is just a marketing ploy? Duh
>>
>> "Martin Harrington" <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>>What are you doing checking out Aussie newspapers, Deej?
>>>Looking to move over here?--
>>>Martin Harrington
>>>www.lendanear-sound.com
>>>
>>>"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
>>>news:450f87ac$1@linux...
>>>> http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,23663,20437931- 10388,00.html
>>>>
>>>> I was present at a few recording sessions with Willie & friends back
in
>>
>>>> the
>>>> early/mid 80's. I thought we smoked up all of the pot on earth then
and
>>>> there wasn't any left. I've still got a hangover from one of those
>>>> sessions.........
>>>>
>>>> As stupid as this was, the stupidity is likely a result of haviung
>>>> smoked
>>
>>>> so
>>>> much pot so maybe he can plead insanity. I hope he doesn't do
>>>> time......and
>>>> he very possibly cound
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>I'm willing to pay for any upgrades as well.
respect
Nappy
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>I was taking that for granted, since we all pulled together to help fund
>Chuck's efforts. I have no problems paying for upgrades that are delivered.
>AA
>
>
>"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
>news:450f1a7f@linux...
>> Do we have any money to pay him? I don't think he's gonna work for free.
>>
>> ;oP
>>
>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote in message
>> news:450e9b9e@linux...
>>> Find out if dude is interested in writing a windows Vista and OS-x driver
>> :)
>>>
>>> AA
>>>
>>>
>>> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
>>> news:450e471d$1@linux...
>>> > He wrote the software program that MRI machines are using these days.
>>> > Very
>>> > interesting guy. I'm mastering a project for his wife. He was pretty
>>> > interested in the Paris program. His wife is pretty well known in the
>>> > LA
>>> > music community and he digs this stuff. I may ask him if he could write
>> a
>>> > delay compensation applet for Paris. He really got a chuckle out of
>>> > Frankencomp.......said he's built a few similar monstrosities himself.
>>> > They
>>> > will be back over here tomorrow night.
>>> >
>>> > ;o)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>OK John.....are you going to send a diplomat to talk to himself? I agree
it's pathetic but in irder for diplomacy to happen, there has to be more
than one diplomat. You want me to name a few......I can't. I think Bolton
and Rice could do a great job if given someone rational to work with.
"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450fcc57$1@linux...
>
> That's a pathetic answer. Yeah we don't need no stinking diplomats!
Everyone
> else is nuts, crazy and a lunatic. DJ, I thought you had better answers
> than that.
>
> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
> >I think I answered yur question as much as I can by stat8ing that a
diplomat
> >cannot do anything unless there is willingness to participate in a
> >meaningful and sincere dialog......so keeping in mind that a negotiator
> must
> >have credibility and those for whom he is negotiating must have some sort
> of
> >track record of credibility, I ask you.......who do you think would be a
> >credible negotiator for Iran, North Korea, Syria?
> >
> >
> >"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450f310e$1@linux...
> >>
> >> What? It's a simple question. Who is a real diplomat in today's
world?
> >>
> >>
> >> "justcron" <parisnews@hydrorecords.com> wrote:
> >> >Dunno, but jump into your next point cuz he's had a lot to say lately.
> >> >
> >> >"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450f2399$1@linux...
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyone, anyone? Beuller?
> >> >>
> >> >> So who would you consider to be equal to or better than Kissinger in
> >> >> today's
> >> >> world?
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>I'd give Winston Churchill a thumbs up. He was an unpleasant guy to be sure,
but he was a diplomat.
"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450ffe32$1@linux...
>
> Ok, so who do you consider to be a great diplomats period?Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he DEAD? Sorry, I meant living today, active
and not with a foot in the grave. Thanks ! hehe
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>I'd give Winston Churchill a thumbs up. He was an unpleasant guy to be sure,
>but he was a diplomat.
>
>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450ffe32$1@linux...
>>
>> Ok, so who do you consider to be a great diplomats period?
>
>Hey now: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-09-19-chirac-intervi ew_x.htm
"John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he DEAD? Sorry, I meant living today,
active
>and not with a foot in the grave. Thanks ! hehe
>
>"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>>I'd give Winston Churchill a thumbs up. He was an unpleasant guy to be
sure,
>>but he was a diplomat.
>>
>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450ffe32$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Ok, so who do you consider to be a great diplomats period?
>>
>>
>"John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>
>Ok, so who do you consider to be a great diplomats period?
It depends on the definition of diplomacy, of course, so I'd say probably
the best diplomat we've had as a president in a while was Bush Sr. When you
compare the quality, quantity, and staying power of his coaltion in Gulf
I to the phony coalition of the bullied and bought for Gulf II it says a
lot. I'm no Bush Sr. fan at all, he was a warmongering bastard like every
president since at least McKinley, but he was shrewd and rational. I think
Colin Powell had a real chance until he got neo-conned. I think he had the
temperment and the fact he was non-white gave him a different sort of credibility
than, say, James Baker when he would talk to non-European countries. I think
Saudi ambassador prince Bandar was given enviable cards to play (best oil
fields in the world) but has managed them impressively considering his country
leads the world in beheadings and funding Islamists.
Historically, in the west, I'd say Metternich has to take the cake even though
he believed everything I despise. Austria by rights was a bit player on the
European stage but their chief diplomat remade most of Europe.
For the US, I'd say nobody has come close to Benjamin Franklin, with John
Adams as a second. Adams was able to convince both finance and political
bigshots to believe in a country that didn't exist, and to lend us lots of
money and a Navy. Franklin did much the same with the French, exquisitely
managing a relationship with Talleyrand, another stunningly nimblefooted
(or treacherous depending on your opinion) diplomat. And Franklin managed
this while being adored by the French and banging lots of hot French aristobabes
on the side. So that goes along ways with me.
Just my ideas off the top of my head. The US has been starved for true diplomats
and strategic thinkers for some time. That's part of the reason we're in
the mess we're in now.
TCB http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/200 3265044_soapbox19.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/200 3265047_warnertube19.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/200 3265043_napster19.html
DubzieThis is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Gene,
I have a stereo pair of Distressors and a Demeter VTCL-2
tube comp. I don't think either of these comps are right
for stereo bus work at the mastering level. Is your
experience with the UAD Mastering series plugs less=20
fruitful than my hardware options? I really don't want to
buy a hardware mastering comp.
Tom
"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote in message =
news:450ff20f$1@linux...
"Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Gene and all others with comments,
>Is the Neve 33609 even worth the bother?
>
>Tom
>
If I didn't have the Portico, I might consider it but I am a glutton. =
I have
many software tools that I have purchased that I use infrequently or =
never,
and if I only bought what I really needed, I would only have a =
fraction of
my current tools. Not bragging
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71366 is a reply to message #71341] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 10:27 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
or proud of this, I'm just a sucker for =
this
shit. I've heard Paris-only tracks that sound great.
I'm on a ten-step program - Right!
Gene
Actually, the only way to significantly improve the native sound of =
Paris
is with improved converters, hardware and clocking. Plugins always =
seem to
move the sound "laterally" to me. Not up the scale of quality. A few =
exceptions,
yes, but not many. The Paris compressors are a weakness so any good =
plugin
will help, but good hardware is still better.
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gene,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a stereo pair of Distressors and =
a Demeter=20
VTCL-2</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>tube comp. I don't think either =
of these=20
comps are right</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>for stereo bus work at the mastering =
level. =20
Is your</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>experience with the UAD Mastering =
series plugs less=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>fruitful than </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>my=20
hardware options? I really don't want to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>buy a hardware mastering =
comp.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"gene lennon" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com">glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com</A>&g=
t;=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:450ff20f$1@linux">news:450ff20f$1@linux</A>...</DIV><BR>"Tom=
Bruhl"=20
<<A href=3D"mailto:arpegio@comcast.net">arpegio@comcast.net</A>> =
wrote:<BR>><BR>>Gene and all others with comments,<BR>>Is the =
Neve=20
33609 even worth the bother?<BR>><BR>>Tom<BR>><BR><BR >If I =
didn't=20
have the Portico, I might consider it but I am a glutton. I =
have<BR>many=20
software tools that I have purchased that I use infrequently or =
never,<BR>and=20
if I only bought what I really needed, I would only have a fraction =
of<BR>my=20
current tools. Not bragging or proud of this, I'm just a sucker for=20
this<BR>shit. I've heard Paris-only tracks that sound great.<BR>I'm on =
a=20
ten-step program - Right!<BR>Gene<BR>Actually, the only way to =
significantly=20
improve the native sound of Paris<BR>is with improved converters, =
hardware and=20
clocking. Plugins always seem to<BR>move the sound "laterally" to me. =
Not up=20
the scale of quality. A few exceptions,<BR>yes, but not many. The =
Paris=20
compressors are a weakness so any good plugin<BR>will help, but good =
hardware=20
is still better.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR>I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, =
and=20
you?<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html">http://www.polesoft.com/refer=
..html</A> </FONT></DIV></BODY ></HTML>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
DJ,
I'm in for the upgrades. =20
What happened to the AES box you were talking about?
Tom
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message =
news:450f1a7f@linux...
Do we have any money to pay him? I don't think he's gonna work for =
free.
;oP
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote in message
news:450e9b9e@linux...
> Find out if dude is interested in writing a windows Vista and OS-x =
driver
:)
>
> AA
>
>
> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
> news:450e471d$1@linux...
> > He wrote the software program that MRI machines are using these =
days.
> > Very
> > interesting guy. I'm mastering a project for his wife. He was =
pretty
> > interested in the Paris program. His wife is pretty well known in =
the LA
> > music community and he digs this stuff. I may ask him if he could =
write
a
> > delay compensation applet for Paris. He really got a chuckle out =
of
> > Frankencomp.......said he's built a few similar monstrosities =
himself.
> > They
> > will be back over here tomorrow night.
> >
> > ;o)
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>DJ,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm in for the upgrades. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What happened to the AES box you were =
talking=20
about?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"DJ" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net">animix_spam-this-ahole=
_@animas.net</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
href=3D"news:450f1a7f@linux">news:450f1a7f@linux</A>...</DIV>Do we =
have any=20
money to pay him? I don't think he's gonna work for=20
free.<BR><BR>;oP<BR><BR>"Aaron Allen" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude">know-spam@not_here.dude</A>> =
wrote in=20
message<BR><A =
href=3D"news:450e9b9e@linux">news:450e9b9e@linux</A>...<BR>>=20
Find out if dude is interested in writing a windows Vista and OS-x=20
driver<BR>:)<BR>><BR>> AA<BR>><BR>><BR>> "DJ" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net">animix_spam-this-ahole=
_@animas.net</A>>=20
wrote in message<BR>> <A=20
href=3D"news:450e471d$1@linux">news:450e471d$1@linux</A>...<BR>> =
> He=20
wrote the software program that MRI machines are using these =
days.<BR>>=20
> Very<BR>> > interesting guy. I'm mastering a project for =
his=20
wife. He was pretty<BR>> > interested in the Paris =
program.=20
His wife is pretty well known in the LA<BR>> > music community =
and he=20
digs this stuff. I may ask him if he could write<BR>a<BR>> > =
delay=20
compensation applet for Paris. He really got a chuckle out of<BR>> =
>=20
Frankencomp.......said he's built a few similar monstrosities =
himself.<BR>>=20
> They<BR>> > will be back over here tomorrow night.<BR>>=20
><BR>> > ;o)<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>>=20
><BR>><BR>><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR>I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, =
and=20
you?<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html">http://www.polesoft.com/refer=
..html</A> </FONT></DIV></BODY ></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C6DBE3.5AC24CA0--The biggest weasel on earth I'd say.
"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:45100fe1$1@linux...
>
> Hey now:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-09-19-chirac-intervi ew_x.htm
>
> "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
> >
> >Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he DEAD? Sorry, I meant living today,
> active
> >and not with a foot in the grave. Thanks ! hehe
> >
> >"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
> >>I'd give Winston Churchill a thumbs up. He was an unpleasant guy to be
> sure,
> >>but he was a diplomat.
> >>
> >>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450ffe32$1@linux...
> >>>
> >>> Ok, so who do you consider to be a great diplomats period?
> >>
> >>
> >
>Historically, in the west, I'd say Metternich has to take the cake even
though
he believed everything I despise. Austria by rights was a bit player on the
European stage but their chief diplomat remade most of Europe.
I agree that he was aboslutely brilliant.
>Just my ideas off the top of my head. The US has been starved for true
diplomats
and strategic thinkers for some time. That's part of the reason we're in
the mess we're in now. <
Well, IMHO, we are faced with what we've got now (and could be improved) or
with the return to the Talleyrands of the left and the wet finger in the
wind.
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:451010bb$1@linux...
>
> "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
> >
> >Ok, so who do you consider to be a great diplomats period?
>
> It depends on the definition of diplomacy, of course, so I'd say probably
> the best diplomat we've had as a president in a while was Bush Sr. When
you
> compare the quality, quantity, and staying power of his coaltion in Gulf
> I to the phony coalition of the bullied and bought for Gulf II it says a
> lot. I'm no Bush Sr. fan at all, he was a warmongering bastard like every
> president since at least McKinley, but he was shrewd and rational. I think
> Colin Powell had a real chance until he got neo-conned. I think he had the
> temperment and the fact he was non-white gave him a different sort of
credibility
> than, say, James Baker when he would talk to non-European countries. I
think
> Saudi ambassador prince Bandar was given enviable cards to play (best oil
> fields in the world) but has managed them impressively considering his
country
> leads the world in beheadings and funding Islamists.
>
> Historically, in the west, I'd say Metternich has to take the cake even
though
> he believed everything I despise. Austria by rights was a bit player on
the
> European stage but their chief diplomat remade most of Europe.
>
> For the US, I'd say nobody has come close to Benjamin Franklin, with John
> Adams as a second. Adams was able to convince both finance and political
> bigshots to believe in a country that didn't exist, and to lend us lots of
> money and a Navy. Franklin did much the same with the French, exquisitely
> managing a relationship with Talleyrand, another stunningly nimblefooted
> (or treacherous depending on your opinion) diplomat. And Franklin managed
> this while being adored by the French and banging lots of hot French
aristobabes
> on the side. So that goes along ways with me.
>
> Just my ideas off the top of my head. The US has been starved for true
diplomats
> and strategic thinkers for some time. That's part of the reason we're in
> the mess we're in now.
>
> TCBWith all due respect ulfiyya, the general consensus here is that anyone can
discuss anything they feel like discussing. This group has morphed into more
of a gathering place for PARIS users and former users. An online coffee
house as such. The key for you is to simply skip the topics you don't want
to read.
Tony
"ulfiyya" <ulfiyya@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:450f7bfa$1@linux...
>
> for ... many times poeple.
> THIS IS NOT A POLITIK SITE!!!
> This is ...Paris site (Music) Remember...
>
>
>
> Keep youre Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>
>>Thanks for the link. It looks like it might be a more interesting read
>>than what you might expect of a book on probability theory.
>>
>>Without risk management there would be no insurance.
>>
>>Seems like we have some major risk management headaches ahead in the
>>foreign relations area. I don't have much faith that our current
>>government understands the situation or is capable of brokering a
>>lasting and beneficial peace.
>>
>>Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>>TCB wrote:
>>> I never said faith was limited to religion _at all_ because that would
> be
>>> silly. I only bring this up because I think it's a very important point.
>>> Nearly every time you read 'without faith there would be no XXXXXXXX'
> it's
>>> just not true and XXXXXXXX can get along just fine without faith.
>>> Probably
>>> the best popular book about risk is called 'Against the Gods' and it's
> sort
>>> of about this very topic.
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Agains
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71369 is a reply to message #71353] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 11:10 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
;> 6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise,
>>>>> engagement,
>>>>> etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
>>>>> 7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath,
>>> allegiance,
>>>>> etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent
>>>>> troubles.
>>>>> 8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made
> through
>>>>> Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see anything in there about risk. My point is that people can
>>> do
>>>>> the things you're talking about knowing full well they might fail, but
>>> do
>>>>> them anyway. That's taking a risk, not having faith. I don't have
>>>>> faith
>>> but
>>>>> I've taken lots of personal and professional risks in my life.
>>>>>
>>>>> TCB
>>>>>
>>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>>> We can disagree about that but the first line is the dictionary
>>>>>> definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>> You're confusing 'faith' with 'a willingness to take risks.' Animals
>>> take
>>>>>>> risks, to get food, create more animals, etc., but I doubt they have
>>> faith.
>>>>>>> One needs no faith to start businesses, invest money, get married,
> etc.
>>>>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Faith is complete trust or confidence in something or someone.
>>>>>>>> Religious
>>>>>>>> faith is one form of faith but not the only definition of "faith."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For example I have faith that if I drop a guitar pick it will find
>>> its
>>>>>>>> way to the floor based on the gravitational attraction it has to
> the
>>>>>>>> planet. I have faith that I'll breathe my next breath, that I'll
> see
>>>>>>>> tomorrow morning. I have faith that other people are put together
> much
>>>>>>>> like I am and that I can therefore relate to other folks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Without faith, people would not invest money. Without faith people
>>> would
>>>>>>>> not vote. Without faith people would not start businesses, hire
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> people, raise children. Without faith people would not ride trains,
>>> fly
>>>>>>>> in planes or drive cars. Without faith no one would investigate
>>>>>>>> scientific questions about reality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While you can clearly have faith without religion, you cannot have
>>>
>>>>>>>> religion without faith. Religion depends on faith that one or more
>>>
>>>>>>>> deities (good and sometimes bad) exist, that their associated
>>>>>>>> stories
>>>>>>>> actually occurred, and often, that there is some sort of afterlife.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, religious people believe in a variety of different
>>>>>>>> deities.
>>>>>>>> Even those who believe in the same deity disagree, sometimes
>>>>>>>> violently,
>>>>>>>> about the nature of their deity. Religions sometimes even disagree
>>> about
>>>>>>>> the nature of reality. If you want to base morality strictly on
>>>>>>>> religion, and you look around, you'll notice that religion can be
> a
>>>
>>>>>>>> somewhat chaotic basis unless...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah, you might say, I want to base morality on MY religion. Well,
> you
>>>>>>>> just dissed the majority of religions. No problem because THEY ARE
>>>
>>>>>>>> WRONG. And people who believe in those religions may just be saying
>>> the
>>>>>>>> same thing about you and your religion. For those religions who are
>>> not
>>>>>>>> tolerant of other ideas, you may just have started a war.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So perhaps it's BETTER, in our time, to have a system of justice
> that
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> NOT based on a religion. But one which guarantees everyone the
>>>>>>>> right
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> practice the religion of their choice, guarantees other freedoms
> such
>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> we in the USA do in our Bill of Rights, encourages honesty and
>>>>>>>> integrity, while enforcing some common sense limits such as no
>>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>>> sacrifices, a minimum age for marriage, no incest, no slavery, no
>
>>>>>>>> murder, no rape, no stealing, those sorts of things.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is viewed as morality beyond a fair justice system and common
>>> sense
>>>>>>>> rules of behavior can be left to each freely chosen religion to
>>>>>>>> sort
>>>>>>>> out, like whether to restrict diet in some way, whether to wear a
>
>>>>>>>> certain type of clothing, how to pray, etc. But none of these
>>>>>>>> additional
>>>>>>>> practices should be imposed on society as a whole.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Golden Rule may also be of use as a basic moral foundation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So yes, you can have a moral system, one that BTW protects the
>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>> to practice religious beliefs (or not), without basing it on any
> one
>>>>>>>> religion. And it can protect all religions better than a system
>>>>>>>> based
>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> any one religion (AKA a theocracy).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are other issues surrounding religions, such as the many
>>>>>>>> examples
>>>>>>>> of selfless dedication to helping others on the one hand, and
>>>>>>>> hijacked
>>>>>>>> religions used to legitimize earthly power structures in other
>>>>>>>> cases.
>>>>>>>> Dedric, I look forward to talking with you about the positives and
>>>
>>>>>>>> negatives of various religions, and where a moral culture ought to
>>> go
>>>>>>> >from here, whenever we next get together.
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dedric Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hey Jimmy,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No doubt one can be a good person without believing in God - there
>>> are
>>>>>>> tons
>>>>>>>>> of great people with no faith, or very little. That in and of
>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>> tells
>>>>>>>>> me there must be a God so even non-believers would have a strong
> sense
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> right and wrong on a societal and even global level.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To walk through some thoughts: with no God, or higher reference
> point,
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> would be considered moral, or at least good? What would one use
> to
>>>>> decide
>>>>>>>>> what is right and wrong?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Laws? Most would agree that we can't legislate morality now, so
> with
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>> basis for what morality is, why would we even bother with laws
>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> everyone would make their own choices anyway?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Intellect? That would simply depend on what one chose to accept
> as
>>>>>>>>> "intelligent" thought, based completely on opinion.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Reasoning and Logic? Logic is determined by a hypothesis that has
>>> a
>>>>> proven
>>>>>>>>> outcome in a given situation. Change the situation, and the
>>>>>>>>> reasoning
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> logic behind the "right" or "wrong" could easily change.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Experience? What if one's experience is filled with hatred,
>>>>>>>>> abuse,
>>>>> anger
>>>>>>>>> and violence, or worse? Then someone would have to decide whose
> experience
>>>>>>>>> we would use as a reference point. There would be no guarantee
> that
>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>> or persons had experiences that would be best for the good of the
>>> whole.
>>>>>>>>> Survival instinct? If it were a reference point, then stealing,
> lying,
>>>>>>>>> cheating and even killing would be perfectly justified as those
> can
>>>>> be
>>>>>>> means
>>>>>>>>> of survival.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why would right and wrong even exist? I would think that the
>>>>>>>>> differences
>>>>>>>>> between societies' definitions of right and wrong, assuming
>>>>>>>>> societies
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>> existed, would be so drastic we would never have ventured into any
>>> form
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> inter-cultural/inter-geographic interaction, much less
>>>>>>>>> relationships,
>>>>>>>>> diplomacy, collaboration, trade, and open travel.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As long as "morals" are only relative to each individual, they
>>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>>> absolute morals that would last longer than the time it takes to
> make
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> choice. We would just have 6.5 billion opinions. There would
>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>> be
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> ever changing perspective on what seems to "make sense" at the
>>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> based on this premise, even "making sense" would vary from person
>>> to
>>>>> person,
>>>>>>>>> day to day, minute to minute. In that case, our prisons would
>>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> filled with innocent people simply judged "wrong" at the time
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> choices didn't match the preferences of the majority; or we
>>>>>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> prisons, or likely even organized societies.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But is the majority always right? How would we know if there were
>>> no
>>>>>>>>> absolutes that supercede the majority in some form?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If there were no right and wrong, there would be no consequences
> of
>>>>> either,
>>>>>>>>> or at least we wouldn't view the outcome as a good or bad
>>>>>>>>> consequence
>>>>>>> - it
>>>>>>>>> would just be another event in time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But by grace and as a gift of freedom, God gave us a choice, both
>>> in
>>>>> whether
>>>>>>>>> to believe in Him and whether to make right or wrong decisions.
> With
>>>>>>> moral
>>>>>>>>> absolutes (God's word) as a reference we have a way to evaluate
> drastically
>>>>>>>>> differing situations on an equivalent basis; with consistency in
> reasoning
>>>>>>>>> and compassion; by choice and instinct rather than puppetry. Even
>>> when
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> choose to do wrong, He is willing to forgive us. Without that
>>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> choose, balanced by God's grace and forgiveness, there would be
> no
>>> power
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> choosing to believe in Him. That's what makes God a personal and
>>> loving
>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>> rather than a dictator or puppet master.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Odd as it may seem to anyone who doesn't believe, I can see God
> in
>>> the
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>> that 1) we as a group of intelligent people on this forum can
>>>>>>>>> discuss
>>>>>>>>> completely opposing opinions and still care enough to consider
>>>>>>>>> insulting,
>>>>>>>>> belittling, slandering and hating one another an intolerable
>>>>>>>>> concept;
>>>>>>> and 2)
>>>>>>>>> in all likelihood agree that peace and compassion completely trump
>>> greed
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> power in importance to life and survival together on this planet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/06 7:12 PM, in article 450df091@linux, "Uptown Jimmy"
>>>>>>>>> <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The idea that one needs to believe in a god in order to have a
> strong
>>>>>>> morals
>>>>>>>>>> is absurd, I think.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jimmy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:C1325038.358D%dterry@keyofd.net...
>>>>>>>>>>> Gene -
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You probably didn't realize it (so no offense), but your
>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>>>> much confirms my assertion that the tendency of our country and
>>> even
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> world society, is to place blame for religious conflict,
>>>>>>>>>>> violence
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> religiously motivated terrorism anywhere but with the single
>>>>>>>>>>> largest
>>>>>>>>>>> growing, and currently most violent religion in the world. We
> ignore
>>>>>>> car
>>>>>>>>>>> bombings, suicide bombers, torched churches, thousands of
>>>>>>>>>>> tortured
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> murdered, exiled and ostracized people in favor of blaming the
>>>>>>>>>>> administration for anything and everything, as if Bush made the
>>> Pope
>>>>>>> quote
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> Byzantine emperor by going to war in Iraq.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Islam isn't the passive, peaceful, non-threatening,
>>>>>>>>>>> all-accepting
>>>>> religion
>>>>>>>>>>> our country seems to blindly want to believe. Some western
>>>>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> be, but just ask anyone who tried to believe in anything else
> in
>>> many
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> conservative Islamic countries of the world. I know, have
>>>>>>>>>>> talked
>>>>> to,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> have heard missionaries to these countries speak - it's a
>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>>> from the free discussions and widely varying opinions we have
> here.
>>>>>>>>>> People
>>>>>>>>>>> die for converting to anything else, or their families do. At
> best,
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> families disown them and they sneak out of the country under
>>>>>>>>>>> threat
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> death. In fact it's the exact opposite of the "freedom" our
>>>>>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>>>> continually pushes the limits of. Odd that we would turn on our
>>> own
>>>>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>>>> in favor of supporting, or at least turning a blind eye to this
>>> kind
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> ideology, somehow believing that is the more politically correct
>>> thing
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The problem I see isn't religion, but a lack of faith in God,
> and
>>>>> hence
>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>> sense of direction and moral guidance. God gives us the choice
>>> to
>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>> or not. Based on documents of their activities - in the name
> of
>>> Allah
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> 9/11 terrorists pretty much broke every one of the 10
>>>>>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>> in
>>>>>>> 24
>>>>>>>>>>> hours. That may seem a trivial or even silly fact, but there
> is
>>> a
>>>>> sad,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> frightening irony there. Faith in God isn't what one should
>>>>>>>>>>> fear
>>>>> -
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>> believing in anything that conveniently appeases one's personal
>>> whims
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> is the true danger.... the terrorists proved that in one day.
> That
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>>> includes believing in nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As Blaise Pascal once said (paraphrased): if one believes in God
>>> and
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> wrong, at worst one has lived a good live and had some false
>>>>>>>>>>> hope
>>>>> as
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>>>>> of comfort along the way; if one doesn't believe and is wrong,
>>> then
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>> best, all is lost for eternity. This is the paradox that we
>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> be
>>&g
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71371 is a reply to message #71351] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 12:50 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
;>>>> It isn't the administration's fault that the Pope quoted a guy
> Islam
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> like just because he called like he saw it - something we do on
>>> this
>>>>>>> forum
>>>>>>>>>>> every single day, ironically. It also isn't Christianity's
>>>>>>>>>>> intent
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>> over the world, or the government. Far from it. The only goal
>>> is
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>> people a chance to decide. Yet, those that want to decide to
> not
>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>> would rather take that right away and remove Christianity from
> public
>>>>>>>>>> view.
>>>>>>>>>>> The only way to force someone to remove their belief from public
>>> in
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> country that promotes the freedom to believe as one wishes, is
> to
>>>>> outlaw
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another paradox.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Through our short sighted political glasses we want to see the
> world
>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>>> black and white, free-will, partisan vote where one's party
>>>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>> wins
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> the decisions are always in our favor, but fail to see any
>>>>>>>>>>> validity
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> believing a God that gave us the very moral compass to maintain
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> balance
>>>>>>>>>>> that kind of choice affords us. In essence we put our trust in
>>> the
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>> thing we prove day in and day out to be one of the most fallible
>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics of humanity - political and relativistic
>>>>>>>>>>> ideology.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I guess I ignored my own first comment....sorry about that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I should get back to mourning NI Battery 2's destruction of 10
> hours
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>> :-((....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/16/06 9:09 PM, in article 450cbc70$1@linux, "gene Lennon"
>>>>>>>>>>> <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't want to start another religious or political thread
> -...
>>>>>>>>>>>> These are frightening times. While the true neocons in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>> administration
>>>>>>>>>>>> have had a variety of political, financial and power-based
>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> perusing
>>>>>>>>>>>> the war against Iraq, the president has had an even scarier
>>>>>>>>>>>> motivation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Religion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you missed it, this week Bush has announced the "Third
>>>>>>>>>>>> Great
>>>>>>>>>> Awakening"
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the international religious struggle. This is a good thing
> as
>>>>> he
>>>>>>> sees
>>>>>>>>>>>> it and it has been partially brought on by the new fight
>>>>>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>>>> terrorists
>>>>>>>>>>>> (Translation - Due to his good work in God's name). A war that
>>> he
>>>>>>>>>> depicts
>>>>>>>>>>>> as "a confrontation between good and evil."
>>>>>>>>>>>> In 2001 he used the word "crusade" and got into quite a bit of
>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>> (as
>>>>>>>>>>>> has the Pope), but he seems to have the gloves off now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Can anyone imagine a worse direction for the world to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> headed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course he also believes in the Rapture, so things could
>>>>>>>>>>>> easily
>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>>>> hill from here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> More on the "Third Awakening":
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09 /12/AR2006091201
>>>>>>>>>> 59
>>>>>>>>>>>> 4_pf.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> `
>>>
>I know this will probably be met with a lot of "you-oughta try's" but I have
been using 1x12's exclusively for 21 years. Morever, loaded with EV 12-L
Series II spkrs. Rated @ 300w, most players would run, not walk, from these
for distortion of any kind. And while I can't really tell you how or why I
decided that these were my best option, they remain just that. Next to a
good FOH eng, these are the most significant components in my signal path.
I've never looked back. Maybe because my 1x12's were custom built and based
on an old Pacific (Michael Forest) design and employ high grade, slow
growth, light-but-dense Norwegien fir. I use just one primarily but when
the stage is big enough and the players be fine, I switch the old 50/50 to
stereo and run the twin cabs about 20' apart, 10' away, pointing back, up
and and slightly in and jump feet first into what one of my gig compadres
calls "one big luxurious stereo sonic bathtub."
W.
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote in message
news:450a08d7@linux...
> I'm looking at picking up a 4x12 to club gig with. Anybody got experience
> to share with me about these models??
> Is there 'really' a $1000 dollars worth of difference in tone from bottom
> to top with them, is it mechanics (like say, casters and handles)?
> I will be driving it with a 60wpc tube amp with a tube preamp front end.
> I want the elusive 'brown sound' distortion and super clear cleans...
> which the amp/preamp combo is certainly capable of giving me. It's the
> cabs that suck on my current gear (2 unmatched 2x12's) - I wish to move to
> one stereo matched cab, and I'm not afraid to rewire it if that matters.
> Many thanks in advance!
>
>
> https://www.zzounds.com/item--MSHMG412A
> $450.00 $279.95
> Angled-front version.
> Power: 120 watts
> Impedance: 8 ohms
> Speakers: 4 x 12 in. Marshall/Celestion custom-designed speakers (30W
> each)
> Dimensions (W x H x D): 26.4 x 26.4 x 14.0 in.
>
>
> http://www.zzounds.com/item--MSH1960A
> $1,150.00 $649.95
> Angled-front version.
> Black grille cloth
> White piping
> Black elephant grain vinyl
> Speaker: 4 x 12 in. G12T-75
> Power: 300 watt
> Impedance: 4 or 16 ohms mono/8 ohms stereo
> Dimensions: 760 x 830 x 360mm
> Weight: 36.4 kg
>
>
> http://www.zzounds.com/item--MSH1960AX
> $1,500.00 $1,049.00
> Angled front
> Vintage-circa early 70's
> Checkered cloth
> White piping
> Medium size white logo
> Black Levant vinyl
> Gold beading on Cab
> Speakers: 4 Celestion G12 M-25w SPKR-00016
> Power: 100 watts
> Impedance: 16 ohm
> Dimensions: 760 x 830 x 360 mm
> Weight: 37.7 kg
> Cover: COVR-00022 optional
>
>
> http://www.zzounds.com/item--MSH1960AHW
> $1,800.00 $1,200.00
> Loaded with Celestion G12H-30 re-issue speakers.
> To complement the 1959HW's visual and sonic majesty, Marshall offers the
> 1960AHW (angled) 4x12 cabinet. It boasts basket weave fret cloth, metal
> handles, "100" logos, and is loaded with Celestion's highly-acclaimed
> G12H-30 re-issue speakers.
>
>
>and you're pick is?"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>
>
>>Are you unable to criticize Muslims? Have you drunken the liberal
>>kool-aid?
>>
>>expiring minds want to know!
>>
>>DC
>>
>
>I posted the link about Becky Fischer for a specific reason. It was not
to
>embarrass or criticize any true believers, but to point out that some extremists
>exist on the Christian side. My Point?
>
>It is unfair to paint the modern Christian movement with the brush of Becky
>Fischer, or Fred Phelps. The Christian movement may have a few extremists,
>but they do not represent the majority of good people following the Christian
>cause. Funny, because that is the exact point I am also trying to make about
>the modern Moslem movement, which is not just a bunch of knife wielding
maniacs.
>It is largely a mixture of fundamentalists combined with many who want to
>see more progressive reform in the Moslem church.
>
>Of the over one billion Moslems in the world today perhaps 1% are extremist
>to the point of violence. That’s still a large and dangerous number. It
only
>takes one with a WMD to cause great harm. But what about the 99%?
>
>I am still waiting for someone to answer my question about what we should
>do if we suffer a major attack and a Moslem extremist group takes credit.
>
>Should we kill 1,000,000 people? How about 1,000,000,000?
>
>I do condemn Moslem radical violence . Killing a Nun because of what the
>Pope said is unconscionable but it is not all Moslems.
>
>P.S. Please point out my lies. I may be delusional, but I think I am trying
>to bring some balance to a very one-sided and highly charged issue.
>
>
>Gene
>
>
>
>
>
There are moslem countries that harbor moslem terrorist. Some of the moslem
governments support these terrorist financially. Some of the same people
that are in the moslem government are also members of the terrorist organizations.
There is no separation of religion and government. Their religious leaders
control their government. These religious leaders call for the destruction
of the United States.
Who do we bomb? We bomb the moslem countries that are behind the terrorist
attacks! Although conventional bombing will not stop the problems.
They try to build nukes, we take them out before they take us out. They have
made their intentions clear! We need to take out the nuclear facilities
in Iran. If we have to go to war, will innocent people be killed? YES! That's
war. We didn't start it they did!
The first thing I would do in the name of peace, would be to stop supporting
Israel. But I don't think you would like that, would you? Last year we
caught Israeli spies in Washington spying on our government. Why should
we keep supporting them??? How does Israel help the US? Allies, did they
help us fight the Korean war, Vietnam war, gulf war, any war??? We hand
them money hand over fist, billions a year, why? You all know why!
You want to fix it? We need to stop supporting Oh Israel. They got the
nukes already, god will protect Israel, they don't need us. We need to butt
out!
Although, I'm not sure that it would stop the moslem terrorist from their
mission of destroying the US. They are hell bent on this. How many times
have they had peace agreements only to turnaround and break cease fires?
There will never be peace with moslems. They are not peaceful people, just
look at what they are doing, they kill their own. It is going to take something
vary serious to stop all of this and it's not going to be talk.Ted Kennedy
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
news:45101602@linux...
> Historically, in the west, I'd say Metternich has to take the cake even
> though
> he believed everything I despise. Austria by rights was a bit player on
the
> European stage but their chief diplomat remade most of Europe.
>
> I agree that he was aboslutely brilliant.
>
> >Just my ideas off the top of my head. The US has been starved for true
> diplomats
> and strategic thinkers for some time. That's part of the reason we're in
> the mess we're in now. <
>
> Well, IMHO, we are faced with what we've got now (and could be improved)
or
> with the return to the Talleyrands of the left and the wet finger in the
> wind.
>
>
>
> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:451010bb$1@linux...
> >
> > "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >Ok, so who do you consider to be a great diplomats period?
> >
> > It depends on the definition of diplomacy, of course, so I'd say
probably
> > the best diplomat we've had as a president in a while was Bush Sr. When
> you
> > compare the quality, quantity, and staying power of his coaltion in Gulf
> > I to the phony coalition of the bullied and bought for Gulf II it says a
> > lot. I'm no Bush Sr. fan at all, he was a warmongering bastard like
every
> > president since at least McKinley, but he was shrewd and rational. I
think
> > Colin Powell had a real chance until he got neo-conned. I think he had
the
> > temperment and the fact he was non-white gave him a different sort of
> credibility
> > than, say, James Baker when he would talk to non-European countries. I
> think
> > Saudi ambassador prince Bandar was given enviable cards to play (best
oil
> > fields in the world) but has manage
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| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71375 is a reply to message #71362] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 15:16 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
nk">450f8aec@linux...
>
> There is plenty of finger pointing to go around. No doubt specific
> things could have been handled better under the previous government.
>
> The transition of power between the previous and current governments was
> pretty rocky, and a "not invented here" syndrome may have doomed the
> hand-off of some al-Qaida related work that was in progress.
>
> In any case, no government gets a pass by blaming the previous
> government. The current government, for example, failed to follow
> through and prioritize the al-Qaida threat ahead of 9/11 and failed to
> prevent 9/11; failed to find and capture Bin Laden in Afghanistan;
> failed to overcome Taliban control of large areas of Afghanistan;
> allowed record drug production to reestablish itself there; failed to
> plan for post Iraq invasion problems predicted by their own state
> department; and they have continually exploited the "war on terrorism"
> for domestic political ends.
>
> You assert the WMDs were there. However Bush's chief inspector, and Bush
> himself, say they weren't there after all. It was a bluff. One of the
> Iraqi expatriate promoters of the bluff got the ear of our government,
> was believed, and, last I heard, had parlayed it into a position of
> power in Iraq after the invasion.
>
> The dems you mentioned authorized the military attack on Iraq as a last
> resort and I don't believe they were satisfied it was done as such.
>
> Preemptive invasion is new as part of the "Bush (Jr.) Doctrine."
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> DJ wrote:
> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:450f3862@linux...
> >> Neither, actually. And what we ought to do would depend on the nature
of
> >> the threat.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> >> We might want to start with recommendations published in 1999, well
> >> before the 9/11 attack.
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Terroris m
> >>
> >> We can disagree about whether our current policy is one of overreacting
> >> or not. We can probably really disagree about the newly minted
> >> preemptive attack policy. :^)
> >
> > I don't think there is any newly minted attack policy. There has always
been
> > the *clear and present danger* perogative but it needs to be based on
> > accurate intelligence. Had this been available, then I doubt that Bush,
> > Kerry, Kennedy Pelosi and the rest would have authorized the invasion of
> > Iraq, or perhaps they would have been able to find the WMD's before they
> > were shipped out of the country or hidden. I just find it hard to
stomach
> > the hypocracy of the democrats whose policies neutered our intelligence
> > services in the '90's when they trun around and blame Bush for the
decisions
> > made based on the intellegence blunders they created in the first place.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Deej
> >
> >
> >> Cheers,
> >> -Jamie
> >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>
> >>
> >> DJ wrote:
> >>> I don't see us overreacting Jamie. However, if there is indication of
> > some
> >>> sort of major threat, do we run and tell the NY times or do we blow
the
> >>> threat away before it pays us a visit?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
news:450f0b12@linux...
> >>>> Of course they came out with a blustery ultimatum. That's not news,
> > it's
> >>>> an old pattern. It works for them to sit back and suggest that others
> > do
> >>>> something via terror-grams such as this. If it makes you afraid as
> > well,
> >>>> my guess is they would see that as a bonus.
> >>>>
> >>>> By goading the USA into overreacting it helps them grow, raise money
> > and
> >>>> convince others to actually see us as evil
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| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71379 is a reply to message #71375] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 16:05 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
> > for
> >>>>>>>> Lutherans, and for good reason.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A Pope criticizing other religions (even other Christian sects,
> > even
> >>>>>>>> other Catholics) is nothing new. Certainly much harsher things
have
> >>>>> been
> >>>>>>>> said about Islam by some (not all) extreme fundamentalist
> > Christians.
> >>>>>>>> And certainly much harsher things have been said by certain
> > extremist
> >>>>>>>> Islamists about Christianity. The more extremist of both camps
seem
> >>> to
> >>>>>>>> be spoiling to relive the crusades. With some of the more power
> >>> hungry
> >>>>>>>> ready to endanger civilization by attempting to incite religious
> > wars
> >>>>>>>> for their own questionable ends.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It's a vast generalization to say the "the left" or "secularists"
> > or
> >>>>>>>> even "Christians" are demanding an apology from the Pope. I think
a
> >>>>>>>> whole lot of people think the Pope can say whatever he wants. It
> >>>>> doesn't
> >>>>>>>> matter to most non-Catholics in the USA and in reality, Papal
> >>>>>>>> declarations are ignored by a fair number of Catholics here, too.
> >>>>>>>> Obviously some Moslems are upset in some places, but how deep
does
> >>> that
> >>>>>>>> go? When black churches were burning in the USA, it would have
been
> >>> an
> >>>>>>>> exaggeration to blame everyone in the USA for that.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to the Catholic church which only very
> >>>>>>>> recently apologized for the oppression of Galileo. The church
hung
> > on
> >>>>>>>> tenaciously to the dogma of an earth-centered view of the
universe
> >>>>> while
> >>>>>>>> denying the heliocentric theory of Copernicus, which describes
the
> >>>>>>>> actual way the solar system works.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It also extends to a few Christian sects who, feeling similarly
> >>>>>>>> insecure, tenaciously cling to the notion that the earth is only
> >>> about
> >>>>>>>> 6,000 years old, by virtue of the biblical interpretations and
> > clever
> >>>>>>>> (at the time) calculations of an Irish Bishop several centuries
> > ago,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> in the face of solid current scientific evidence to the contrary.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some (not all) Christian churches
> > who,
> >>>>>>>> feeling similarly insecure, deny the solid and ever-mounting
> > evidence
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> evolution, responding with dogma in psuedo-scientific clothing,
and
> >>> who
> >>>>>>>> seek to water down scientific education in the USA.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to power hungry industries who pay big
> >>> bucks
> >>>>>>>> to spread denial about global warming for short term gain. Who
push
> >>> to
> >>>>>>>> control oil in the middle east with force. With our guns blazing,
> > our
> >>>>>>>> soldiers dying and our debt rising astronomically. And who
> > sometimes
> >>>>>>>> hide behind Christianity to do so.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some neoconservatives who find ways
> > to
> >>>>>>>> pretend that everyone is aligning against Christianity. And in
> >>>>> spreading
> >>>>>>>> this fear attempt to incite Christians to vote to keep them in
> > power.
> >>>>>>>> And in so pandering, help to continue the denial of reason and
the
> >>>>> focus
> >>>>>>>> on the use of force.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Not that I'll change your mind, DC, so go ahead and declare
> > victory.
> >>>>> ;^)
> >>>>>>>> Have a great week!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>> -Jamie
> >>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> DC wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> I thought this was worth reading if any of you are interested.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Have a great Monday!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The Unholy Alliance Rolls Over the Pope
> >>>>>>>>> By Andrew Walden
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> In what has suddenly been made into a highly controversial
> >>>>>>>>> speech, the day after September 11, at Bavaria’s University of
> >>>>>>>>> Regensberg, Pope Benedict describes Christian belief in a God
> >>>>>>>>> whose words and acts are bound by reason, truth and the law of
> >>>>>>>>> non-contradiction. Benedict contrasts this with Islamic belief
> >>>>>>>>> in a God not bound by anything—including his own words.
Benedict
> >>>>>>>>> further contrasts Christian belief with that of secular
humanists
> >>>>>>>>> who see reason as being completely unbound of God.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> In response, both Islamists and secularists have demanded the
> >>>>>>>>> Pope apologize. Benedict’s speech is a work of enlightened
> >>>>>>>>> genius. He has clearly laid out the differences between
> >>>>>>>>> Christian culture and Islamic culture and the basis of the clash
> >>>>>>>>> of civilizations we now experience as the War on Terror. His
> >>>>>>>>> analysis also explains the underlying cause of the alliance
> >>>>>>>>> between the western Left and the Islamofascist Right.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Islamist reaction focuses on one sentence in the speech.
> >>>>>>>>&g
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| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71384 is a reply to message #71320] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 18:42 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
;>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> What the Islamists and the New York Times both fear is having to
> >>>>>>>>> reply to the Pope’s key point, borrowed from the Byzantine
> >>>>>>>>> Emperor: “‘Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos (word
or
> >>>>>>>>> reason) is contrary to the nature of God,’.… It is to this
great
> >>>>>>>>> logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in
> >>>>>>>>> the dialogue of cultures.”
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Their fear of reason can only lead the world to disaster.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>
> >
> >Ok, fair enough. I'm just looking for some diplomacy success stories of recent.
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>OK John.....are you going to send a diplomat to talk to himself? I agree
>it's pathetic but in irder for diplomacy to happen, there has to be more
>than one diplomat. You want me to name a few......I can't. I think Bolton
>and Rice could do a great job if given someone rational to work with.
>
>
>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450fcc57$1@linux...
>>
>> That's a pathetic answer. Yeah we don't need no stinking diplomats!
>Everyone
>> else is nuts, crazy and a lunatic. DJ, I thought you had better answers
>> than that.
>>
>> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >I think I answered yur question as much as I can by stat8ing that a
>diplomat
>> >cannot do anything unless there is willingness to participate in a
>> >meaningful and sincere dialog......so keeping in mind that a negotiator
>> must
>> >have credibility and those for whom he is negotiating must have some
sort
>> of
>> >track record of credibility, I ask you.......who do you think would be
a
>> >credible negotiator for Iran, North Korea, Syria?
>> >
>> >
>> >"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450f310e$1@linux...
>> >>
>> >> What? It's a simple question. Who is a real diplomat in today's
>world?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "justcron" <parisnews@hydrorecords.com> wrote:
>> >> >Dunno, but jump into your next point cuz he's had a lot to say lately.
>> >> >
>> >> >"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450f2399$1@linux...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyone, anyone? Beuller?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So who would you consider to be equal to or better than Kissinger
in
>> >> >> today's
>> >> >> world?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>"gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSP.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSP.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sorry – I can’t help myself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I assume we all think that schools in the Middle East where children
are
>>>>indoctrinated with anti-western ideas mixed with big dose of religious
>>zeal
>>>>and combined with preaching the virtues of martyrdom are a bad thing…
>right?
>>>>
>>>>Gene
>>>>
>>>
>>>Right.
>>>
>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM
>>
>>It's a twisting of the truth! The children are not being taut to kill
people,
>>they are being taught to be an army for Christ, to spread the word of god.
>> The terms they are using like soldiers, are a figure of speech. It should
>>be soul-diers
>>
>>Of corse they would inter view an anti Christian to get their twisted take
>>on it. I know your on the left coast, but come on Gene!
>>
>
>So you are OK with what Becky Fischer is doing?
>Before you answer, here is another quote from her that has been recorded
>by the press with her permission.
>"I want to teach kids that there is no greater way to show their love for
>Jesus then to lay down their lives for the gospel".
>Nice. Soul-diers indeed.
>The Second Commandment and the 6th (they are taught that to kill in God’s
>name is not murder) seem to be misplaced at the Kids On Fire Camp.
>
>How about Fred Phelps, or some of the Christian/Skinheads, or abortion bombers?
>Are you completely unwilling to admit that there are some extremists in
the
>Christian movement?
>Talk about “come on”.
>
>Gene
>
Gene, there are many that use the name of Christ for their own evil purposes.
There are many radical people that call themselves Christians. I don't
know who these people are, that you point out. In Christianity, it is a
figure of speech to say lay down your life for Christ. It means to devote
your life to christ and to teach the gospel to everybody, not to go out and
kill people in Christ's name. This is a misinterpretation.
In the ten commandments it says, "Thou shalt not do murder", so I don't know
what you are talking about when you say a second commandment. The second
commandment is to not build false idols and worship them. More misinterpretation.i nominate you for john's diplomat search..props to you...damn, i
wasn't going to enter this fray...
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:31:50 -0500, "Tony Benson"
<tony@standinghampton.com> wrote:
>With all due respect ulfiyya, the general consensus here is that anyone can
>discuss anything they feel like discussing. This group has morphed into more
>of a gathering place for PARIS users and former users. An online coffee
>house as such. The key for you is to simply skip the topics you don't want
>to read.
>
>Tony
>
>
>"ulfiyya" <ulfiyya@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:450f7bfa$1@linux...
>>
>> for ... many times poeple.
>> THIS IS NOT A POLITIK SITE!!!
>> This is ...Paris site (Music) Remember...
>>
>>
>>
>> Keep youre Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Thanks for the link. It looks like it might be a more interesting read
>>>than what you might expect of a book on probability theory.
>>>
>>>Without risk management there would be no insurance.
>>>
>>>Seems like we have some major risk management headaches ahead in the
>>>foreign relations area. I don't have much faith that our current
>>>government understands the situation or is capable of brokering a
>>>lasting and beneficial peace.
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>> -Jamie
>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>
>>>
>>>TCB wrote:
>>>> I never said faith was limited to religion _at all_ because that would
>> be
>>>> silly. I only bring this up because I think it's a very important point.
>>>> Nearly every time you read 'without faith there would be no XXXXXXXX'
>> it's
>>>> just not true and XXXXXXXX can get along just fine without faith.
>>>> Probably
>>>> the best popular book about risk is called 'Against the Gods' and it's
>> sort
>>>> of about this very topic.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Against-Gods-Remarkable-Story-Risk/dp/ 0471295639/sr=8-1/qid=1158631839/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2500887-29 81628?ie=UTF8&s=books
>>>>
>>>> TCB
>>>>
>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>> There you go, clearly faith is not limited to religion. Although just
>> as
>>>>
>>>>> clearly it's important for religion.
>>>>>
>>>>> As to risk, many people have faith that their risks will pan out. Some
>>
>>>>> people do things because they have such faith. I know people like that.
>>>>
>>>>> I am people like that. That doesn't preclude anyone from doing
>>>>> something
>>>>
>>>>> for some other reason, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to say you don't have faith in anything, using any of the
>>
>>>>> definitions below, then that's your prerogative and I don't have a
>>>>> problem with that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>> Here's dictionary.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> faith  /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
>>>>>> Pronunciation[feyth]
>>>>>> Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
>>>>>> -noun
>>>>>> 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's
>>>>>> ability.
>>>>>> 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis
>>>> would
>>>>>> be substantiated by fact.
>>>>>> 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the
>>>>>> firm
>>>> faith
>>>>>> of the Pilgrims.
>>>>>> 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:
>>>> to
>>>>>> be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
>>>>>> 5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish
>>>>>> faith.
>>>>>> 6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise,
>>>>>> engagement,
>>>>>> etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
>>>>>> 7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath,
>>>> allegiance,
>>>>>> etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent
>>>>>> troubles.
>>>>>> 8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made
>> through
>>>>>> Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see anything in there about risk. My point is that people can
>>>> do
>>>>>> the things you're talking about knowing full well they might fail, but
>>>> do
>>>>>> them anyway. That's taking a risk, not having faith. I don't have
>>>>>> faith
>>>> but
>>>>>> I've taken lots of personal and professional risks in my life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> We can disagree about that but the first line is the dictionary
>>>>>>> definition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>>> You're confusing 'faith' with 'a willingness to take risks.' Animals
>>>> take
>>>>>>>> risks, to get food, create more animals, etc., but I doubt they have
>>>> faith.
>>>>>>>> One needs no faith to start businesses, invest money, get married,
>> etc.
>>>
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| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71391 is a reply to message #71379] |
Thu, 17 August 2006 20:06 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
gt; relationships,
>>>>>>>>>> diplomacy, collaboration, trade, and open travel.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As long as "morals" are only relative to each individual, they
>>>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>>>> absolute morals that would last longer than the time it takes to
>> make
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> choice. We would just have 6.5 billion opinions. There would
>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>> ever changing perspective on what seems to "make sense" at the
>>>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> based on this premise, even "making sense" would vary from person
>>>> to
>>>>>> person,
>>>>>>>>>> day to day, minute to minute. In that case, our prisons would
>>>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> filled with innocent people simply judged "wrong" at the time
>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> choices didn't match the preferences of the majority; or we
>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> prisons, or likely even organized societies.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But is the majority always right? How would we know if there were
>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>> absolutes that supercede the majority in some form?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If there were no right and wrong, there would be no consequences
>> of
>>>>>> either,
>>>>>>>>>> or at least we wouldn't view the outcome as a good or bad
>>>>>>>>>> consequence
>>>>>>>> - it
>>>>>>>>>> would just be another event in time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But by grace and as a gift of freedom, God gave us a choice, both
>>>> in
>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>>>>> to believe in Him and whether to make right or wrong decisions.
>> With
>>>>>>>> moral
>>>>>>>>>> absolutes (God's word) as a reference we have a way to evaluate
>> drastically
>>>>>>>>>> differing situations on an equivalent basis; with consistency in
>> reasoning
>>>>>>>>>> and compassion; by choice and instinct rather than puppetry. Even
>>>> when
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> choose to do wrong, He is willing to forgive us. Without that
>>>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> choose, balanced by God's grace and forgiveness, there would be
>> no
>>>> power
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> choosing to believe in Him. That's what makes God a personal and
>>>> loving
>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>>> rather than a dictator or puppet master.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Odd as it may seem to anyone who doesn't believe, I can see God
>> in
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>> that 1) we as a group of intelligent people on this forum can
>>>>>>>>>> discuss
>>>>>>>>>> completely opposing opinions and still care enough to consider
>>>>>>>>>> insulting,
>>>>>>>>>> belittling, slandering and hating one another an intolerable
>>>>>>>>>> concept;
>>>>>>>> and 2)
>>>>>>>>>> in all likelihood agree that peace and compassion completely trump
>>>> greed
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> power in importance to life and survival together on this planet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/06 7:12 PM, in article 450df091@linux, "Uptown Jimmy"
>>>>>>>>>> <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The idea that one needs to believe in a god in order to have a
>> strong
>>>>>>>> morals
>>>>>>>>>>> is absurd, I think.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jimmy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:C1325038.358D%dterry@keyofd.net...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gene -
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You probably didn't realize it (so no offense), but your
>>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>> much confirms my assertion that the tendency of our country and
>>>> even
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> world society, is to place blame for religious conflict,
>>>>>>>>>>>> violence
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> religiously motivated terrorism anywhere but with the single
>>>>>>>>>>>> largest
>>>>>>>>>>>> growing, and currently most violent religion in the world. We
>> ignore
>>>>>>>> car
>>>>>>>>>>>> bombings, suicide bombers, torched churches, thousands of
>>>>>>>>>>>> tortured
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> murdered, exiled and ostracized people in favor of blaming the
>>>>>>>>>>>> administration for anything and everything, as if Bush made the
>>>> Pope
>>>>>>>> quote
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Byzantine emperor by going to war in Iraq.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Islam isn't the passive, peaceful, non-threatening,
>>>>>>>>>>>> all-accepting
>>>>>> religion
>>>>>>>>>>>> our country seems to blindly want to believe. Some western
>>>>>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>> be, but just ask anyone who tried to believe in anything else
>> in
>>>> many
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> conservative Islamic countries of the world. I know, have
>>>>>>>>>>>> talked
>>>>>> to,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> have heard missionaries to these countries speak - it's a
>>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>>>> from the free discussions and widely varying opinions we have
>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>> People
>>>>>>>>>>>> die for converting to anything else, or their families do. At
>> best,
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> families disown them and they sneak out of the country under
>>>>>>>>>>>> threat
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> death. In fact it's the exact opposite of the "freedom" our
>>>>>>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>>>>> continually pushes the limits of. Odd that we would turn on our
>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>>>>> in favor of supporting, or at least turning a blind eye to this
>>>> kind
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> ideology, somehow believing that is the more politically correct
>>>> thing
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem I see isn't religion, but a lack of faith in God,
>> and
>>>>>> hence
>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>> sense of direction and moral guidance. God gives us the choice
>>>> to
>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>> or not. Based on documents of their activities - in the name
>> of
>>>> Allah
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> 9/11 terrorists pretty much broke every one of the 10
>>>>>>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> 24
>>>>>>>>>>>> hours. That may seem a trivial or even silly fact, but there
>> is
>>>> a
>>>>>> sad,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> frightening irony there. Faith in God isn't what one should
>>>>>>>>>>>> fear
>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> believing in anything that conveniently appeases one's personal
>>>> whims
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> is the true danger.... the terrorists proved that in one day.
>> That
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>>>> includes believing in nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As Blaise Pascal once said (paraphrased): if one believes in God
>>>> and
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong, at worst one has lived a good live and had some false
>>>>>>>>>>>> hope
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>>>>>> of comfort along the way; if one doesn't believe and is wrong,
>>>> then
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>> best, all is lost for eternity. This is the paradox that we
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> considering, and yet the most fear-inducing thought is that the
>>>> President
>>>>>>>>>>>> might believe in something other than nothing. Is no belief
>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>> than belief? What reference point for right and wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>> accompanies
>>>>>>>>>>> disbelief
>>>>>>>>>>>> in anything higher than one's own decisions? What reference
>>>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> respect for other people's beliefs accompanies a lack of belief
>>>> in
>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>> guideline for living life and having respect and compassion for
>>>> others?
>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't the administration's fault that the Pope quoted a guy
>> Islam
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> like just because he called like he saw it - something we do on
>>>> this
>>>>>>>> forum
>>>>>>>>>>>> every single day, ironically. It also isn't Christianity's
>>>>>>>>>>>> intent
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>> over the world, or the government. Far from it. The only goal
>>>> is
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>> people a chance to decide. Yet, those that want to decide to
>> not
>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>> would rather take that right away and remove Christianity from
>> public
>>>>>>>>>>> view.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The only wa
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| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71403 is a reply to message #71384] |
Fri, 18 August 2006 03:02 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
oing?
>>Before you answer, here is another quote from her that has been recorded
>>by the press with her permission.
>>"I want to teach kids that there is no greater way to show their love for
>>Jesus then to lay down their lives for the gospel".
>>Nice. Soul-diers indeed.
>>The Second Commandment and the 6th (they are taught that to kill in God’s
>>name is not murder) seem to be misplaced at the Kids On Fire Camp.
>>
>>How about Fred Phelps, or some of the Christian/Skinheads, or abortion bombers?
>>Are you completely unwilling to admit that there are some extremists in
>the
>>Christian movement?
>>Talk about “come on”.
>>
>>Gene
>>
>
>Gene, there are many that use the name of Christ for their own evil purposes.
> There are many radical people that call themselves Christians. I don't
>know who these people are, that you point out. In Christianity, it is a
>figure of speech to say lay down your life for Christ. It means to devote
>your life to christ and to teach the gospel to everybody, not to go out and
>kill people in Christ's name. This is a misinterpretation.
>
>In the ten commandments it says, "Thou shalt not do murder", so I don't know
>what you are talking about when you say a second commandment. The second
>commandment is to not build false idols and worship them. More misinterpretation."Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>Gene,
>I have a stereo pair of Distressors and a Demeter VTCL-2
>tube comp. I don't think either of these comps are right
>for stereo bus work at the mastering level. Is your
>experience with the UAD Mastering series plugs less=20
>fruitful than my hardware options? I really don't want to
>buy a hardware mastering comp.
>Tom
>
It’s not easy for me to answer. In my case I do apply “mastering” to tracks
if I am sending demos out or occasionally for film work. I do not consider
myself a Mastering Engineer (capitalized), even though I do have a few mastering
credits. For real album work I send tracks to professional mastering people.
For me the goal is to get the tracks closer to “album sound” but not to do
real mastering.
If I did not have the Portico, I would probably pick the UAD 33609 over the
UAD Mastering Compressor simply because I have a slight preference for the
“Neve-ish” sound.
The best thing is to try the demos yourself. I do agree that the Distressor
is not a good choice for a mastering comp. It’s been years since I used a
Demeter.
Other good software compressor/limiters I have used for “mastering” include:
Sony Dynamics and Limiter
Massey Limiter (Pro tools only) – Excellent! And cheap.
The optional limiter for SawStudio (I forget the name)
Waves L3 Multimaximizer (gets crunchy but is very “Radio”)
UAD Fairchild (for effect only)
A step down but usable are:
PSP MasterComp, Voxengo, and Roger Nichols Finis
GeneI'm sensing some sarcasm there Rick. ;>) I would make a terrible diplomat. I
react far too much from the gut. Beside, it's hard to be a good communicator
with your foot in your mouth!
I didn't mean to sound harsh to ulfiyya. He (she?) has every right to want
this group to stick to PARIS related stuff. I guess it just feels more like
a community to me than a technical reference source.
Tony
"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:k0c0h2hl6cc83qvha4esc96935fo3nqtb1@4ax.com...
>i nominate you for john's diplomat search..props to you...damn, i
> wasn't going to enter this fray...
>
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:31:50 -0500, "Tony Benson"
> <tony@standinghampton.com> wrote:
>
>>With all due respect ulfiyya, the general consensus here is that anyone
>>can
>>discuss anything they feel like discussing. This group has morphed into
>>more
>>of a gathering place for PARIS users and former users. An online coffee
>>house as such. The key for you is to simply skip the topics you don't want
>>to read.
>>
>>Tony
>>
>>
>>"ulfiyya" <ulfiyya@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:450f7bfa$1@linux...
>>>
>>> for ... many times poeple.
>>> THIS IS NOT A POLITIK SITE!!!
>>> This is ...Paris site (Music) Remember...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Keep youre Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for the link. It looks like it might be a more interesting read
>>>>than what you might expect of a book on probability theory.
>>>>
>>>>Without risk management there would be no insurance.
>>>>
>>>>Seems like we have some major risk management headaches ahead in the
>>>>foreign relations area. I don't have much faith that our current
>>>>government understands the situation or is capable of brokering a
>>>>lasting and beneficial peace.
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>TCB wrote:
>>>>> I never said faith was limited to religion _at all_ because that would
>>> be
>>>>> silly. I only bring this up because I think it's a very important
>>>>> point.
>>>>> Nearly every time you read 'without faith there would be no XXXXXXXX'
>>> it's
>>>>> just not true and XXXXXXXX can get along just fine without faith.
>>>>> Probably
>>>>> the best popular book about risk is called 'Against the Gods' and it's
>>> sort
>>>>> of about this very topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Against-Gods-Remarkable-Story-Risk/dp/ 0471295639/sr=8-1/qid=1158631839/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2500887-29 81628?ie=UTF8&s=books
>>>>>
>>>>> TCB
>>>>>
>>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>>> There you go, clearly faith is not limited to religion. Although just
>>> as
>>>>>
>>>>>> clearly it's important for religion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As to risk, many people have faith that their risks will pan out.
>>>>>> Some
>>>
>>>>>> people do things because they have such faith. I know people like
>>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am people like that. That doesn't preclude anyone from doing
>>>>>> something
>>>>>
>>>>>> for some other reason, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you want to say you don't have faith in anything, using any of the
>>>
>>>>>> definitions below, then that's your prerogative and I don't have a
>>>>>> problem with that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>> Here's dictionary.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> faith  /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
>>>>>>> Pronunciation[feyth]
>>>>>>> Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
>>>>>>> -noun
>>>>>>> 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's
>>>>>>> ability.
>>>>>>> 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the
>>>>>>> hypothesis
>>>>> would
>>>>>>> be substantiated by fact.
>>>>>>> 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the
>>>>>>> firm
>>>>> faith
>>>>>>> of the Pilgrims.
>>>>>>> 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit,
>>>>>>> etc.:
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
>>>>>>> 5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish
>>>>>>> faith.
>>>>>>> 6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise,
>>>>>>> engagement,
>>>>>>> etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
>>>>>>> 7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise,
>>>>>>> oath,
>>>>> allegiance,
>>>>>>> etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent
>>>>>>> troubles.
>>>>>>> 8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made
>>> through
>>>>>>> Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't see anything in there about risk. My point is that people
>>>>>>> can
>>>>> do
>>>>>>> the things you're talking about knowing full well they might fail,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>> do
>>>>>>> them anyway. That's taking a risk, not having faith. I don't have
>>>>>>> faith
>>>>> but
>>>>>>> I've taken lots of personal and professional risks in my life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> We can disagree about that but the first line is the dictionary
>>>>>>>> definition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> You're confusing 'faith' with 'a willingness to take risks.'
>>>>>>>>> Animals
>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>> risks, to get food, create more animals, etc., but I doubt they
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>> faith.
>>>>>>>>> One needs no faith to start businesses, invest money, get married,
>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Faith is complete trust or confidence in something or someone.
>>>>>>>>>> Religious
>>>>>>>>>> faith is one form of faith but not the only definition of
>>>>>>>>>> "faith."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For example I have faith that if I drop a guitar pick it will
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>> way to the floor based on the gravitational attraction it has to
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> planet. I have faith that I'll breathe my next breath, that I'll
>>> see
>>>>>>>>>> tomorrow morning. I have faith that other people are put together
>>> much
>>>>>>>>>> like I am and that I can therefore relate to other folks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Without faith, people would not invest money. Without faith
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> not vote. Without faith people would not start businesses, hire
>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>> people, raise children. Without faith people would not ride
>>>>>>>>>> trains,
>>>>> fly
>>>>>>>>>> in planes or drive cars. Without faith no one would investigate
>>>>>>>>>> scientific questions about reality.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> While you can clearly have faith without religion, you cannot
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> religion without faith. Religion depends on faith that one or
>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> deities (good and sometimes bad) exist, that their associated
>>>>>>>>>> stories
>>>>>>>>>> actually occurred, and often, that there is some sort of
>>>>>>>>>> afterlife.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, religious people believe in a variety of different
>>>>>>>>>> deities.
>>>>>>>>>> Even those who believe in the same deity disagree, sometimes
>>>>>>>>>> violently,
>>>>>>>>>> about the nature of their deity. Religions sometimes even
>>>>>>>>>> disagree
>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> the nature of reality. If you want to base morality strictly on
>>>>>>>>>> religion, and you look around, you'll notice that religion can be
>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> somewhat chaotic basis unless...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ah, you might say, I want to base morality on MY religion. Well,
>>> you
>>&g
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| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71407 is a reply to message #71375] |
Fri, 18 August 2006 08:09 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
arget="_blank">http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dedric Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Jimmy,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No doubt one can be a good person without believing in God -
>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> tons
>>>>>>>>>>> of great people with no faith, or very little. That in and of
>>>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>>> tells
>>>>>>>>>>> me there must be a God so even non-believers would have a strong
>>> sense
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> right and wrong on a societal and even global level.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To walk through some thoughts: with no God, or higher reference
>>> point,
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>> would be considered moral, or at least good? What would one use
>>> to
>>>>>>> decide
>>>>>>>>>>> what is right and wrong?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Laws? Most would agree that we can't legislate morality now, so
>>> with
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>> basis for what morality is, why would we even bother with laws
>>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>>> everyone would make their own choices anyway?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Intellect? That would simply depend on what one chose to accept
>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>> "intelligent" thought, based completely on opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Reasoning and Logic? Logic is determined by a hypothesis that
>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>> a
>>>>>>> proven
>>>>>>>>>>> outcome in a given situation. Change the situation, and the
>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> logic behind the "right" or "wrong" could easily change.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Experience? What if one's experience is filled with hatred,
>>>>>>>>>>> abuse,
>>>>>>> anger
>>>>>>>>>>> and violence, or worse? Then someone would have to decide whose
>>> experience
>>>>>>>>>>> we would use as a reference point. There would be no guarantee
>>> that
>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>> or persons had experiences that would be best for the good of
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>> whole.
>>>>>>>>>>> Survival instinct? If it were a reference point, then stealing,
>>> lying,
>>>>>>>>>>> cheating and even killing would be perfectly justified as those
>>> can
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> means
>>>>>>>>>>> of survival.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why would right and wrong even exist? I would think that the
>>>>>>>>>>> differences
>>>>>>>>>>> between societies' definitions of right and wrong, assuming
>>>>>>>>>>> societies
>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>> existed, would be so drastic we would never have ventured into
>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>> form
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> inter-cultural/inter-geographic interaction, much less
>>>>>>>>>>> relationships,
>>>>>>>>>>> diplomacy, collaboration, trade, and open travel.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As long as "morals" are only relative to each individual, they
>>>>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>>>>> absolute morals that would last longer than the time it takes to
>>> make
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> choice. We would just have 6.5 billion opinions. There would
>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>> ever changing perspective on what seems to "make sense" at the
>>>>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> based on this premise, even "making sense" would vary from
>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> person,
>>>>>>>>>>> day to day, minute to minute. In that case, our prisons would
>>>>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> filled with innocent people simply judged "wrong" at the time
>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> choices didn't match the preferences of the majority; or we
>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> prisons, or likely even organized societies.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But is the majority always right? How would we know if there
>>>>>>>&
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| Re: church and state [message #71408 is a reply to message #71407] |
Fri, 18 August 2006 08:35 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
gt;>>> were
>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>> absolutes that supercede the majority in some form?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If there were no right and wrong, there would be no consequences
>>> of
>>>>>>> either,
>>>>>>>>>>> or at least we wouldn't view the outcome as a good or bad
>>>>>>>>>>> consequence
>>>>>>>>> - it
>>>>>>>>>>> would just be another event in time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But by grace and as a gift of freedom, God gave us a choice,
>>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>> in
>>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>>>>>> to believe in Him and whether to make right or wrong decisions.
>>> With
>>>>>>>>> moral
>>>>>>>>>>> absolutes (God's word) as a reference we have a way to evaluate
>>> drastically
>>>>>>>>>>> differing situations on an equivalent basis; with consistency in
>>> reasoning
>>>>>>>>>>> and compassion; by choice and instinct rather than puppetry.
>>>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>> choose to do wrong, He is willing to forgive us. Without that
>>>>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> choose, balanced by God's grace and forgiveness, there would be
>>> no
>>>>> power
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> choosing to believe in Him. That's what makes God a personal
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>> loving
>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than a dictator or puppet master.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Odd as it may seem to anyone who doesn't believe, I can see God
>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>> that 1) we as a group of intelligent people on this forum can
>>>>>>>>>>> discuss
>>>>>>>>>>> completely opposing opinions and still care enough to consider
>>>>>>>>>>> insulting,
>>>>>>>>>>> belittling, slandering and hating one another an intolerable
>>>>>>>>>>> concept;
>>>>>>>>> and 2)
>>>>>>>>>>> in all likelihood agree that peace and compassion completely
>>>>>>>>>>> trump
>>>>> greed
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> power in importance to life and survival together on this
>>>>>>>>>>> planet.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/06 7:12 PM, in article 450df091@linux, "Uptown Jimmy"
>>>>>>>>>>> <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The idea that one needs to believe in a god in order to have a
>>> strong
>>>>>>>>> morals
>>>>>>>>>>>> is absurd, I think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jimmy
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:C1325038.358D%dterry@keyofd.net...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gene -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You probably didn't realize it (so no offense), but your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much confirms my assertion that the tendency of our country
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> world society, is to place blame for religious conflict,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> violence
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> religiously motivated terrorism anywhere but with the single
>>>>>>>>>>>>> largest
>>>>>>>>>>>>> growing, and currently most violent religion in the world. We
>>> ignore
>>>>>>>>> car
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bombings, suicide bombers, torched churches, thousands of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tortured
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> murdered, exiled and ostracized people in favor of blaming the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> administration for anything and everything, as if Bush made
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>> Pope
>>>>>>>>> quote
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Byzantine emperor by going to war in Iraq.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Islam isn't the passive, peaceful, non-threatening,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all-accepting
>>>>>>> religion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> our country seems to blindly want to believe. Some western
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be, but just ask anyone who tried to believe in anything else
>>> in
>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> conserv
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| Re: church and state [message #71410 is a reply to message #71408] |
Fri, 18 August 2006 08:54 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
gt;>>>>> families disown them and they sneak out of the country under
>>>>>>>>>>>>> threat
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> death. In fact it's the exact opposite of the "freedom" our
>>>>>>>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>>>>>> continually pushes the limits of. Odd that we would turn on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in favor of supporting, or at least turning a blind eye to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>> kind
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ideology, somehow believing that is the more politically
>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem I see isn't religion, but a lack of faith in God,
>>> and
>>>>>>> hence
>>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense of direction and moral guidance. God gives us the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not. Based on documents of their activities - in the name
>>> of
>>>>> Allah
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9/11 terrorists pretty much broke every one of the 10
>>>>>>>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> 24
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hours. That may seem a trivial or even silly fact, but there
>>> is
>>>>> a
>>>>>>> sad,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightening irony there. Faith in God isn't what one should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fear
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believing in anything that conveniently appeases one's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>> whims
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the true danger.... the terrorists proved that in one day.
>>> That
>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>>>>> includes believing in nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Blaise Pascal once said (paraphrased): if one believes in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong, at worst one has lived a good live and had some false
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hope
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of comfort along the way; if one doesn't believe and is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong,
>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> best, all is lost for eternity. This is the paradox that we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> considering, and yet the most fear-inducing thought is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>> President
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might believe in something other than nothing. Is no belief
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than belief? What reference point for right and wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>>> accompanies
>>>>>>>>>>>> disbelief
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in anything higher than one's own decisions? What reference
>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> respect for other people's beliefs accompanies a lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> belief
>>>>> in
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guideline for living life and having respect and compassion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>> others?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't the administration's fault that the Pope quoted a guy
>>> Islam
>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like just because he called like he saw it - something we do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> forum
>>>>>>>>>>>>> every single day, ironically. It also isn't Christianity's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> intent
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>>> over the world, or the government. Far from it. The only
>>>>>>>>>>>>> goal
>>>>> is
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people a chance to decide. Yet, those that want to decide to
>>> not
>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would rather take that right away and remove Christianity from
>>> public
>>>>>>>>>>>> view.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only way to force someone to remove their belief from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> public
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> country that promotes the freedom to believe as one wishes, is
>>> to
>>>>>>> outlaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another paradox.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Through our short sighted political glasses we want to see the
>>> world
>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> black and white, free-will, partisan vote where one's party
>>>>>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>> wins
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the decisions are always in our favor, but fail to see any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> validity
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believing a God that gave us the very moral compass to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> maintain
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> balance
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that kind of choice affords us. In essence we put our trust
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing we prove day in and day out to be one of the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fallible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics of humanity - political and relativistic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ideology.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>&
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| Re: church and state [message #71412 is a reply to message #71410] |
Fri, 18 August 2006 09:08 |
DC
Messages: 722
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
;>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can anyone imagine a worse direction for the world to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> headed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course he also believes in the Rapture, so things could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easily
>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hill from here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More on the "Third Awakening":
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09 /12/AR2006091201
>>>>>>>>>>>> 59
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4_pf.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> `
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>Deej. You forgot Jimmy Carter! ;>)
Tony
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
news:4510061e@linux...
> OK John.....are you going to send a diplomat to talk to himself? I agree
> it's pathetic but in irder for diplomacy to happen, there has to be more
> than one diplomat. You want me to name a few......I can't. I think Bolton
> and Rice could do a great job if given someone rational to work with.
>
>
> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450fcc57$1@linux...
>>
>> That's a pathetic answer. Yeah we don't need no stinking diplomats!
> Everyone
>> else is nuts, crazy and a lunatic. DJ, I thought you had better answers
>> than that.
>>
>> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >I think I answered yur question as much as I can by stat8ing that a
> diplomat
>> >cannot do anything unless there is willingness to participate in a
>> >meaningful and sincere dialog......so keeping in mind that a negotiator
>> must
>> >have credibility and those for whom he is negotiating must have some
>> >sort
>> of
>> >track record of credibility, I ask you.......who do you think would be a
>> >credible negotiator for Iran, North Korea, Syria?
>> >
>> >
>> >"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450f310e$1@linux...
>> >>
>> >> What? It's a simple question. Who is a real diplomat in today's
> world?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "justcron" <parisnews@hydrorecords.com> wrote:
>> >> >Dunno, but jump into your next point cuz he's had a lot to say
>> >> >lately.
>> >> >
>> >> >"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:450f2399$1@linux...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyone, anyone? Beuller?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So who would you consider to be equal to or better than Kissinger
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> today's
>> >> >> world?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>For most of the Clinton years the balance of power was divided between
both parties. Again, there is plenty of finger pointing to go around.
It's easy enough in hindsight to criticize the previous administration
on a number of counts.
And in retrospect, those dems made a mistake trusting Bush with that
vote. OTOH, it was a moment of unity.
Flash forward. Today all branches of national government are controlled
by one party. It doesn't bother me if you want to point blame at some of
the policies under Clinton. But again, merely pointing fingers backwards
in no way excuses the mistakes and failures of the current government.
They walked in stating in clear terms that they felt the previous
government was wrong about almost everything, and then fell flat
overall, domestically and internationally.
Looking at both governments, we can do better. We must do better.
At some point, and we're coming up on six years, the buck stops with
those in charge now.
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
DJ wrote:
> The dems you mentioned authorized the military attack on Iraq as a last
> resort and I don't believe they were satisfied it was done as such.
>
> How convenient for them when it was the intelligence service that they
> created over 8 years of hard work that they now attempt to slag and blame
> for their decisdions so they can vote for the war before they vote against
> it.
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:450f8aec@linux...
>> There is plenty of finger pointing to go around. No doubt specific
>> things could have been handled better under the previous government.
>>
>> The transition of power between the previous and current governments was
>> pretty rocky, and a "not invented here" syndrome may have doomed the
>> hand-off of some al-Qaida related work that was in progress.
>>
>> In any case, no government gets a pass by blaming the previous
>> government. The current government, for example, failed to follow
>> through and prioritize the al-Qaida threat ahead of 9/11 and failed to
>> prevent 9/11; failed to find and capture Bin Laden in Afghanistan;
>> failed to overcome Taliban control of large areas of Afghanistan;
>> allowed record drug production to reestablish itself there; failed to
>> plan for post Iraq invasion problems predicted by their own state
>> department; and they have continually exploited the "war on terrorism"
>> for domestic political ends.
>>
>> You assert the WMDs were there. However Bush's chief inspector, and Bush
>> himself, say they weren't there after all. It was a bluff. One of the
>> Iraqi expatriate promoters of the bluff got the ear of our government,
>> was believed, and, last I heard, had parlayed it into a position of
>> power in Iraq after the invasion.
>>
>> The dems you mentioned authorized the military attack on Iraq as a last
>> resort and I don't believe they were satisfied it was done as such.
>>
>> Preemptive invasion is new as part of the "Bush (Jr.) Doctrine."
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:450f3862@linux...
>>>> Neither, actually. And what we ought to do would depend on the nature
> of
>>>> the threat.
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>>> We might want to start with recommendations published in 1999, well
>>>> before the 9/11 attack.
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Terroris m
>>>>
>>>> We can disagree about whether our current policy is one of overreacting
>>>> or not. We can probably really disagree about the newly minted
>>>> preemptive attack policy. :^)
>>> I don't think there is any newly minted attack policy. There has always
> been
>>> the *clear and present danger* perogative but it needs to be based on
>>> accurate intelligence. Had this been available, then I doubt that Bush,
>>> Kerry, Kennedy Pelosi and the rest would have authorized the invasion of
>>> Iraq, or perhaps they would have been able to find the WMD's before they
>>> were shipped out of the country or hidden. I just find it hard to
> stomach
>>> the hypocracy of the democrats whose policies neutered our intelligence
>>> services in the '90's when they trun around and blame Bush for the
> decisions
>>> made based on the intellegence blunders they created in the first place.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Deej
>>>
>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>> I don't see us overreacting Jamie. However, if there is indication of
>>> some
>>>>> sort of major threat, do we run and tell the NY times or do we blow
> the
>>>>> threat away before it pays us a visit?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> news:Report message to a moderator
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|
|
| Re: church and state [message #71413 is a reply to message #71412] |
Fri, 18 August 2006 09:19 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
@linux..." target="_blank">450f0b12@linux...
>>>>>> Of course they came out with a blustery ultimatum. That's not news,
>>> it's
>>>>>> an old pattern. It works for them to sit back and suggest that others
>>> do
>>>>>> something via terror-grams such as this. If it makes you afraid as
>>> well,
>>>>>> my guess is they would see that as a bonus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By goading the USA into overreacting it helps them grow, raise money
>>> and
>>>>>> convince others to actually see us as evil and act accordingly. It
>>>>>> works, we keep falling for it. OTOH, for those here with a declared
>>>>>> interest in emptying the US treasury, it's likewise beneficial to
> have
>>>>>> the specter of an enemy out there. Fear sells.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have yet to actually declare war on anyone in this whole mess. How
>>> do
>>>>>> you declare war on a tactic?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Forced conversion and head taxes would go over like a lead balloon in
>>>>>> the USA. Not gonna happen. We're far more sectarian than, say, Iraq.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Responsible leadership is needed in the world to calm extremist
>>>>>> tendencies on all sides and help rational people who are trying to
> get
>>>>>> by in worsening times. At the same time we need to be, and are
>>>>>> attempting to be, vigilant against any self righteous group with
>>>>>> fantasies of violence in the USA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any rush to some sort of "holy war" is irrational. There is nothing
>>> holy
>>>>>> about war.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>>> I haven't seen us react with irrationality.............yet. Al
> Quaeda
>>>>> just
>>>>>>> came out with an ultimatim stating that it's full on war now and the
>>>>> west
>>>>>>> will be destroyed. The only way to save ourselves is to convert to
>>>>> Islam. So
>>>>>>> where to you draw the line between irrationality and self defense?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>> news:450ee7ef@linux...
>>>>>>>> Let's keep from reacting to irrationality with irrationality of our
>>>>> own.
>>>>>>>> There's a lot of fear mongering. Chicken Little is back.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It doesn't matter at all whether this was the Pope. The bottom
> line
>>> is
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> it is rationality as opposed to irrationality.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:450ec970@linux...
>>>>>>>>>> The Catholic church doesn't speak for Christianity. Certainly not
>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Lutherans, and for good reason.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A Pope criticizing other religions (even other Christian sects,
>>> even
>>>>>>>>>> other Catholics) is nothing new. Certainly much harsher things
> have
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>> said about Islam by some (not all) extreme fundamentalist
>>> Christians.
>>>>>>>>>> And certainly much harsher things have been said by certain
>>> extremist
>>>>>>>>>> Islamists about Christianity. The more extremist of both camps
> seem
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> be spoiling to relive the crusades. With some of the more power
>>>>> hungry
>>>>>>>>>> ready to endanger civilization by attempting to incite religious
>>> wars
>>>>>>>>>> for their own questionable ends.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's a vast generalization to say the "the left" or "secularists"
>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> even "Christians" are demanding an apology from the Pope. I think
> a
>>>>>>>>>> whole lot of people think the Pope can say whatever he wants. It
>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> matter to most non-Catholics in the USA and in reality, Papal
>>>>>>>>>> declarations are ignored by a fair number of Catholics here, too.
>>>>>>>>>> Obviously some Moslems are upset in some places, but how deep
> does
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> go? When black churches were burning in the USA, it would have
> been
>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>> exaggeration to blame everyone in the USA for that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to the Catholic church which only very
>>>>>>>>>> recently apologized for the oppression of Galileo. The church
> hung
>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> tenaciously to the dogma of an earth-centered view of the
> universe
>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>> denying the heliocentric theory of Copernicus, which describes
> the
>>>>>>>>>> actual way the solar system works.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It also extends to a few Christian sects who, feeling similarly
>>>>>>>>>> insecure, tenaciously cling to the notion that the earth is only
>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> 6,000 years old, by virtue of the biblical interpretations and
>>> clever
>>>>>>>>>> (at the time) calculations of an Irish Bishop several centuries
>>> ago,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> in the face of solid current scientific evidence to the contrary.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some (not all) Christian churches
>>> who,
>>>>>>>>>> feeling similarly insecure, deny the solid and ever-mounting
>>> evidence
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> evolution, responding with dogma in psuedo-scientific clothing,
> and
>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>> seek to water down scientific education in the USA.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to power hungry industries who pay big
>>>>> bucks
>>>>>>>>>> to spread denial about global warming for short term gain. Who
> push
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> control oil in the middle east with force. With our guns blazing,
>>> our
>>>>>>>>>> soldiers dying and our debt rising astronomically. And who
>>> sometimes
>>>>>>>>>> hide behind Christianity to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The fear of reason extends to some neoconservatives who find ways
>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> pretend that everyone is aligning against Christianity. And in
>>>>>>> spreading
>>>>>>>>>> this fear attempt to incite Christians to vote to keep them in
>>> power.
>>>>>>>>>> And in so pandering, help to continue the denial of reason and
> the
>>>>>>> focus
>>>>>>>>>> on the use of force.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not that I'll change your mind, DC, so go ahead and declare
>>> victory.
>>>>>>> ;^)
>>>>>>>>>> Have a great week!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> DC wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I thought this was worth reading if any of you are interested.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have a great Monday!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Unholy Alliance Rolls Over the Pope
>>>>>>>>>>> By Andrew Walden
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In what has suddenly been made into a highly controversial
>>>>>>>>>>> speech, the day after September 11, at Bavaria’s University of
>>>>>>>>>>> Regensberg, Pope Benedict describes Christian belief in a God
>>>>>>>>>>> whose words and acts are bound by reason, truth and the law of
>>>>>>>>>>> non-contradiction. Benedict contrasts this with Islamic belief
>>>>>>>>>>> in a God not bound by anything—including his own words.
> Benedict
>>>>>>>>>>> further contrasts Christian belief with that of secular
> humanists
>>>>>>>>>>> who see reason as being completely unbound of God.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In response, both Islamists and secularists have demanded the
>>>>>>>>>>> Pope apologize. Benedict’s speech is a
|
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| Re: church and state [message #71417 is a reply to message #71415] |
Fri, 18 August 2006 10:54 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
ut the world,
>>>>>>>>>>> both are in decline.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Where the force of reason is defeated, Islamist and secularist
>>>>>>>>>>> will meet in combat, just as Hitler’s fascists broke their pact
>>>>>>>>>>> with the Soviet Union, invading in June, 1941 after the collapse
>>>>>>>>>>> of the allied forces on the western front.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What the Islamists and the New York Times both fear is having to
>>>>>>>>>>> reply to the Pope’s key point, borrowed from the Byzantine
>>>>>>>>>>> Emperor: “‘Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos (word
> or
>>>>>>>>>>> reason) is contrary to the nature of God,’.… It is to this
> great
>>>>>>>>>>> logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in
>>>>>>>>>>> the dialogue of cultures.”
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Their fear of reason can only lead the world to disaster.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>
>Count me in.
"Nappy" <mgrant01@san.rr.com> wrote in message news:45100198$1@linux...
>
> I'm willing to pay for any upgrades as well.
>
> respect
> Nappy
>
>
> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>I was taking that for granted, since we all pulled together to help fund
>
>>Chuck's efforts. I have no problems paying for upgrades that are
>>delivered.
>>AA
>>
>>
>>"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
>>news:
|
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| Re: church and state [message #71420 is a reply to message #71417] |
Fri, 18 August 2006 11:20 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
0500, "Tony Benson"
> <tony@standinghampton.com> wrote:
>
> >With all due respect ulfiyya, the general consensus here is that anyone
can
> >discuss anything they feel like discussing. This group has morphed into
more
> >of a gathering place for PARIS users and former users. An online coffee
> >house as such. The key for you is to simply skip the topics you don't
want
> >to read.
> >
> >Tony
> >
> >
> >"ulfiyya" <ulfiyya@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:450f7bfa$1@linux...
> >>
> >> for ... many times poeple.
> >> THIS IS NOT A POLITIK SITE!!!
> >> This is ...Paris site (Music) Remember...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Keep youre Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Thanks for the link. It looks like it might be a more interesting read
> >>>than what you might expect of a book on probability theory.
> >>>
> >>>Without risk management there would be no insurance.
> >>>
> >>>Seems like we have some major risk management headaches ahead in the
> >>>foreign relations area. I don't have much faith that our current
> >>>government understands the situation or is capable of brokering a
> >>>lasting and beneficial peace.
> >>>
> >>>Cheers,
> >>> -Jamie
> >>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>TCB wrote:
> >>>> I never said faith was limited to religion _at all_ because that
would
> >> be
> >>>> silly. I only bring this up because I think it's a very important
point.
> >>>> Nearly every time you read 'without faith there would be no XXXXXXXX'
> >> it's
> >>>> just not true and XXXXXXXX can get along just fine without faith.
> >>>> Probably
> >>>> the best popular book about risk is called 'Against the Gods' and
it's
> >> sort
> >>>> of about this very topic.
> >>>>
> >>>>
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Gods-Remarkable-Story-Risk/dp/ 0471295639/sr=8-
1/qid=1158631839/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2500887-2981628?ie=UTF8&am p;s=books
> >>>>
> >>>> TCB
> >>>>
> >>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
> >>>>> There you go, clearly faith is not limited to religion. Although
just
> >> as
> >>>>
> >>>>> clearly it's important for religion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As to risk, many people have faith that their risks will pan out.
Some
> >>
> >>>>> people do things because they have such faith. I know people like
that.
> >>>>
> >>>>> I am people like that. That doesn't preclude anyone from doing
> >>>>> something
> >>>>
> >>>>> for some other reason, of course.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you want to say you don't have faith in anything, using any of
the
> >>
> >>>>> definitions below, then that's your prerogative and I don't have a
> >>>>> problem with that.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>> -Jamie
> >>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> TCB wrote:
> >>>>>> Here's dictionary.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> faith  /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
> >>>>>> Pronunciation[feyth]
> >>>>>> Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
> >>>>>> -noun
> >>>>>> 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's
> >>>>>> ability.
> >&
|
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| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71597 is a reply to message #71391] |
Mon, 21 August 2006 20:41 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> threat
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> death. In fact it's the exact opposite of the "freedom" our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continually pushes the limits of. Odd that we would turn on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in favor of supporting, or at least turning a blind eye to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>> kind
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ideology, somehow believing that is the more politically
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem I see isn't religion, but a lack of faith in God,
>>>> and
>>>>>>>> hence
>>>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense of direction and moral guidance. God gives us the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not. Based on documents of their activities - in the name
>>>> of
>>>>>> Allah
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9/11 terrorists pretty much broke every one of the 10
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> 24
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hours. That may seem a trivial or even silly fact, but there
>>>> is
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> sad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightening irony there. Faith in God isn't what one should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fear
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believing in anything that conveniently appeases one's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>> whims
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the true danger.... the terrorists proved that in one day.
>>>> That
>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> includes believing in nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Blaise Pascal once said (paraphrased): if one believes in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong, at worst one has lived a good live and had some false
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hope
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of comfort along the way; if one doesn't believe and is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong,
>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best, all is lost for eternity. This is the paradox that we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> considering, and yet the most fear-inducing thought is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> President
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might believe in something other than nothing. Is no belief
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than belief? What reference point for right and wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accompanies
>>>>>>>>>>>>> disbelief
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in anything higher than one's own decisions? What reference
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respect for other people's beliefs accompanies a lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> belief
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guideline for living life and having respect and compassion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> others?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't the administration's fault that the Pope quoted a guy
>>>> Islam
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like just because he called like he saw it - something we do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> forum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every single day, ironically. It also isn't Christianity's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intent
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over the world, or the government. Far from it. The only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goal
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people a chance to decide. Yet, those that want to decide to
>>>> not
>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would rather take that right away and remove Christianity from
>>>> public
>>>>>>>>>>>>> view.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only way to force someone to remove their belief from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> country that promotes the freedom to believe as one wishes, is
>>>> to
>>>>>>>> outlaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another paradox.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Through our short sighted political glasses we want to see the
>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black and white, free-will, partisan vote where one's party
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>> wins
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the decisions are always in our favor, but fail to see any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validity
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believing a God that gave us the very moral compass to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maintain
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that kind of choice affords us. In essence we put our trust
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing we prove day in and day out to be one of the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fallible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics of humanity - political and relativistic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ideology.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess I ignored my own first comment....sorry about that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I should get back to mourning NI Battery 2's destruction of 10
>>>> hours
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :-((....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/16/06 9:09 PM, in article 450cbc70$1@linux, "gene Lennon"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't want to start another religious or political thread
>>>> -...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These are frightening times. While the true neocons in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> administration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have had a variety of political, financial and power-based
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perusing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the war against Iraq, the president has had an even scarier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motivation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you missed it, this week Bush has announced the "Third
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Great
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Awakening"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the international religious struggle. This is a good thing
>>>> as
>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>> sees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it and it has been partially brought on by the new fight
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrorists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Translation - Due to his good work in God's name). A war
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>> depicts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as "a confrontation between good and evil."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In 2001 he used the word "crusade" and got into quite a bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has the Pope), but he seems to have the gloves off now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can anyone imagine a worse direction for the world to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> headed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course he also believes in the Rapture, so things could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easily
>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hill from here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More on the "Third Awakening":
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09 /12/AR2006091201
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 59
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4_pf.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> `
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>i've never seen a sitting moon so....hell yeah. since i quit smoking
2 1/2 yrs ago i no longer get the exercise from coughing i used to.
on second thought that feat has also given me a bigger ass so let me
ponder on that a bit.
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:36:51 -0600, "DJ"
<animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>Rick,
>
>Do you think it would help if we could just figure out a way to get into the
>UN gallery (do they have a gallery?) and then start mooning people? I want
>to do something constructive instead of sitting around bitching all the
>time.
>
>Deej
>
>
>"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:k0c0h2hl6cc83qvha4esc96935fo3nqtb1@4ax.com...
>> i nominate you for john's diplomat search..props to you...damn, i
>> wasn't going to enter this fray...
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:31:50 -0500, "Tony Benson"
>> <tony@standinghampton.com> wrote:
>>
>> >With all due respect ulfiyya, the general consensus here is that anyone
>can
>> >discuss anything they feel like discussing. This group has morphed into
>more
>> >of a gathering place for PARIS users and former users. An online coffee
>> >house as such. The key for you is to simply skip the topics you don't
>want
>> >to read.
>> >
>> >Tony
>> >
>> >
>> >"ulfiyya" <ulfiyya@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:450f7bfa$1@linux...
>> >>
>> >> for ... many times poeple.
>> >> THIS IS NOT A POLITIK SITE!!!
>> >> This is ...Paris site (Music) Remember...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Keep youre Jamie K <Meta&#
|
|
|
|
| Re: Oh gawd . . [message #71600 is a reply to message #71597] |
Mon, 21 August 2006 22:23 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>> >>>>>>>>> examples
>> >>>>>>>>> of selfless dedication to helping others on the one hand, and
>> >>>>>>>>> hijacked
>> >>>>>>>>> religions used to legitimize earthly power structures in other
>> >>>>>>>>> cases.
>> >>>>>>>>> Dedric, I look forward to talking with you about the positives
>and
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> negatives of various religions, and where a moral culture ought
>to
>> >>>> go
>> >>>>>>>> >from here, whenever we next get together.
>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Dedric Terry wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> Hey Jimmy,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> No doubt one can be a good person without believing in God -
>there
>> >>>> are
>> >>>>>>>> tons
>> >>>>>>>>>> of great people with no faith, or very little. That in and of
>> >>>>>>>>>> itself
>> >>>>>>>> tells
>> >>>>>>>>>> me there must be a God so even non-believers would have a
>strong
>> >> sense
>> >>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>> right and wrong on a societal and even global level.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> To walk through some thoughts: with no God, or higher
>reference
>> >> point,
>> >>>>>>>> what
>> >>>>>>>>>> would be considered moral, or at least good? What would one
>use
>> >> to
>> >>>>>> decide
>> >>>>>>>>>> what is right and wrong?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Laws? Most would agree that we can't legislate morality now,
>so
>> >> with
>> >>>>>>>> no
>> >>>>>>>>>> basis for what morality is, why would we even bother with laws
>> >>>>>>>>>> since
>> >>>>>>>>>> everyone would make their own choices anyway?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Intellect? That would simply depend on what one chose to
>accept
>> >> as
>> >>>>>>>>>> "intelligent" thought, based completely on opinion.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Reasoning and Logic? Logic is determined by a hypothesis that
>has
>> >>>> a
>> >>>>>> proven
>> >>>>>>>>>> outcome in a given situation. Change the situation, and the
>> >>>>>>>>>> reasoning
>> >>>>>>>> or
>> >>>>>>>>>> logic behind the "right" or "wrong" could easily change.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Experience? What if one's experience is filled with hatred,
>> >>>>>>>>>> abuse,
>> >>>>>> anger
>> >>>>>>>>>> and violence, or worse? Then someone would have to decide
>whose
>> >> experience
>> >>>>>>>>>> we would use as a reference point. There would be no guarantee
>> >> that
>> >>>>>> person
>> >>>>>>>>>> or persons had experiences that would be best for the good of
>the
>> >>>> whole.
>> >>>>>>>>>> Survival instinct? If it were a reference point, then
>stealing,
>> >> lying,
>> >>>>>>>>>> cheating and even killing would be perfectly justified as those
>> >> can
>> >>>>>> be
>> >>>>>>>> means
>> >>>>>>>>>> of survival.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Why would right and wrong even exist? I would think that the
>> >>>>>>>>>> differences
>> >>>>>>>>>> between societies' definitions of right and wrong, assuming
>> >>>>>>>>>> societies
>> >>>>>>>> even
>> >>>>>>>>>> existed, would be so drastic we would never have ventured into
>any
>> >>>> form
>> >>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>> inter-cultural/inter-geographic interaction, much less
>> >>>>>>>>>> relationships,
>> >>>>>>>>>> diplomacy, collaboration, trade, and open travel.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> As long as "morals" are only relative to each individual, they
>> >>>>>>>>>> aren't
>> >>>>>>>>>> absolute morals that would last longer than the time it takes
>to
>> >> make
>> >>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> choice. We would just have 6.5 billion opinions. There would
>> >>>>>>>>>> only
>> >>>>>> be
>> >>>>>>>> an
>> >>>>>>>>>> ever changing perspective on what seems to "make sense" at the
>> >>>>>>>>>> time,
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>> based on this premise, even "making sense" would vary from
>person
>> >>>> to
>> >>>>>> person,
>> >>>>>>>>>> day to day, minute to minute. In that case, our prisons would
>> >>>>>>>>>> either
>> >>>>>>>> be
>> >>>>>>>>>> filled with innocent people simply judged "wrong" at the time
>> >>>>>>>>>> because
>> >>>>>>>> their
>> >>>>>>>>>> choices didn't match the preferences of the majority; or we
>> >>>>>>>>>> wouldn't
>> >>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>>>>> prisons, or likely even organized societies.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> But is the majority always right? How would we know if there
>were
>> >>>> no
>> >>>>>>>>>> absolutes that supercede the majority in some form?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> If there were no right and wrong, there would be no
>consequences
>> >> of
>> >>>>>> either,
>> >>>>>>>>>> or at least we wouldn't view the outcome as a good or bad
>> >>>>>>>>>> consequence
>> >>>>>>>> - it
>> >>>>>>>>>> would just be another event in time.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> But by grace and as a gift of freedom, God gave us a choice,
>both
>> >>>> in
>> >>>>>> whether
>> >>>>>>>>>> to believe in Him and whether to make right or wrong decisions.
>> >> With
>> >>>>>>>> moral
>> >>>>>>>>>> absolutes (God's word) as a reference we have a way to evaluate
>> >> drastically
>> >>>>>>>>>> differing situations on an equivalent basis; with consistency
>in
>> >> reasoning
>> >>>>>>>>>> and compassion; by choice and instinct rather than puppetry.
>Even
>> >>>> when
>> >>>>>>>> we
>> >>>>>>>>>> choose to do wrong, He is willing to forgive us. Without that
>> >>>>>>>>>> option
>> >>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>> choose, balanced by God's grace and forgiveness, there would be
>> >> no
>> >>>> power
>> >>>>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>> choosing to believe in Him. That's what makes God a personal
>and
>> >>>> loving
>> >>>>>>>> God
>> >>>>>>>>>> rather than a dictator or puppet master.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Odd as it may seem to anyone who doesn't believe, I can see God
>> >> in
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> way
>> >>>>>>>>>> that 1) we as a group of intelligent people on this forum can
>> >>>>>>>>>> discuss
>> >>>>>>>>>> completely opposing opinions and still care enough to consider
>> >>>>>>>>>> insulting,
>> >>>>>>>>>> belittling, slandering and hating one another an intolerable
>> >>>>>>>>>> concept;
>> >>>>>>>> and 2)
>> >>>>>>>>>> in all likelihood agree that peace and compassion completely
>trump
>> >>>> greed
>> >>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>> power in importance to life and survival together on this
>planet.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>> >>>>>>>>>> Dedric
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/06 7:12 PM, in article 450df091@linux, "Uptown Jimmy"
>> >>>>>>>>>> <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> The idea that one needs to believe in a god in order to have a
>> >> strong
>> >>>>>>>> morals
>> >>>>>>>>>>> is absurd, I think.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jimmy
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message
>> >>>>>>>>>>> news:C1325038.358D%dterry@keyofd.net...
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Gene -
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You probably didn't realize it (so no offense), but your
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> response
>> >>>>>> pretty
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> much confirms my assertion that the tendency of our country
>and
>> >>>> even
>> >>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> world society, is to place blame for religious conflict,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> violence
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> religiously motivated terrorism anywhere but with the single
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> largest
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> growing, and currently most violent religion in the world.
>We
>> >> ignore
>> >>>>>>>> car
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> bombings, suicide bombers, torched churches, thousands of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> tortured
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> murdered, exiled and ostracized people in favor of blaming
>the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> administration for anything and everything, as if Bush made
>the
>> >>>> Pope
>> >>>>>>>> quote
>> >>>>>>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Byzantine emperor by going to war in Iraq.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Islam isn't the passive, peaceful, non-threatening,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> all-accepting
>> >>>>>> religion
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> our country seems to blindly want to believe. Some western
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Muslims
>> >>>>>>>> might
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> be, but just ask anyone who tried to believe in anything else
>> >> in
>> >>>> many
>> >>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> conservative Islamic countries of the world. I know, have
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> talked
>> >>>>>> to,
>> >>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> have heard missionaries to these countries speak - it's a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> different
>> >>>>>>>> world
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> from the free discussions and widely varying opinions we have
>> >> here.
>> >>>>>>>>>>> People
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> die for converting to anything else, or their families do.
>At
>> >> best,
>> >>>>>>>> their
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> families disown them and they sneak out of the country under
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> threat
>> >>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> death. In fact it's the exact opposite of the "freedom" our
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> country
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> continually pushes the limits of. Odd that we would turn on
>our
>> >>>> own
>> >>>>>>>>>>> country
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in favor of supporting, or at least turning a blind eye to
>this
>> >>>> kind
>> >>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ideology, somehow believing that is the more politically
>correct
>> >>>> thing
>> >>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The problem I see isn't religion, but a lack of faith in God,
>> >> and
>> >>>>>> hence
>> >>>>>>>>>>> any
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sense of direction and moral guidance. God gives us the
>choice
>> >>>> to
>> >>>>>> believe
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> or not. Based on documents of their activities - in the name
>> >> of
>> >>>> Allah
>> >>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 9/11 terrorists pretty much broke every one of the 10
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> commandments
>> >>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>> 24
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hours. That may seem a trivial or even silly fact, but there
>> >> is
>> >>>> a
>> >>>>>> sad,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> frightening irony there. Faith in God isn't what one should
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> fear
>> >>>>>> -
>> >>>>>>>> it's
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> believing in anything that conveniently appeases one's
>personal
>> >>>> whims
>> >>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is the true danger.... the terrorists proved that in one day.
>> >> That
>> >>>>>>>> also
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> includes believing in nothing.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As Blaise Pascal once said (paraphrased): if one believes in
>God
>> >>>> and
>> >>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrong, at worst one has lived a good live and had some false
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hope
>> >>>>>> as
>> >>>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> sense
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of comfort al
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