Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks!
| Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70054] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 01:16  |
Kim W
Messages: 165
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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gt;>> silly
>>>>>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in
> the
>>>>> sky."
>>>>>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the
> opposite,
>>> my
>>>>>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient
>>> dogma
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> I have no reason to believe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer
> words:
>>> I
>>>>>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG
> time
>>
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70059 is a reply to message #70055] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 03:40  |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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href="mailto:dc@spammersinmaui.com" target="_blank">dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message
> news:44e23a46$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by
>>> faith.
>>>>>>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
>>>>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call
> God
>>>>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
>>>>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views
> are
>>>>>>>> human at the source.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
>>>>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
>>>>>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and
> then
>>>>> left
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
>>> competition.
>>>>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
>>>>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
>>>>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
>>>>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical and
>>>>>>>>> effective
>>>>>>>>> way to live peacefully
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70060 is a reply to message #70058] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 03:43 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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with our fellow humans.
>>>>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
>>>>>>>> rules".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
>>>>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm
> fine
>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be fun
> to
>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be honest
>>>>> here
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even
> then.
>>>>> And
>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>> sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me.
>>> It's
>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
>>> backward
>>>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been
>>> inspired
>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> supreme being.
>>>>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
>>>>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
>>>>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
>>>>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
>>>>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
>>>>>>>> themselves...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
>>>>>>>> assumptions about existence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead
> Iraqis
>>>>>>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile.
> What
>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>&g
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70061 is a reply to message #70059] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 03:46 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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t;>>>> think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of
>>> brown
>>>>>>>>> rice?
>>>>>>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists?
>>> 100?
>>>>>>>> 500?
>>>>>>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were innocent
>>> and
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> families.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded or
>>>>> maimed.
>>>>>>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can
> think
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't, but
>>> it's
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
>>> jumpsuits
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
>>>>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in all
>>>>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
>>>>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules, you
>>>>>>>> would have to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring
> themselves
>>> to
>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
>>>>>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
>>>>>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
>>>>>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
>>>>>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
>>>>>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms, to
>>> kill
>>>>>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
>>>>>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
>>>>>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70062 is a reply to message #70061] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 03:55 |
Kim W
Messages: 165
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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>>>>
>>>
>
>But you still didn't answer my question. Can you name even one? Yes, there
are examples of Chiristianity being spread by conquest, but there are also
many examples where it wasn't. In this country, people can practice any
religion they want. Is that true in countries that are Muslim theocracies?
Can you name even one?
Deej
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e47542@linux...
>
> How about Hinduism? Sikhism? Buddhism?
>
> People have converted to Islam right here in the USA. I don't think
> we've been conquered by anyone lately (aside from the neo-con takeover
> still in progress, maybe neo-cons are secretly Islamic? ;^)
>
> I will grant you that conquering and spreading religious doctrine have
> gone hand in hand in the past, notably by various Islamic AND Christian
> sects. You start mixing religion and government and that's what you get.
> Religion becomes a tool of empire.
>
> I'm with Jefferson on this one.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> DJ wrote:
> > Jamie,
> >
> > Can you name even one instance wherein a population becaume Muslim by
any
> > means other than military conquest?
> >
> > Deej
> >
> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e40472@linux...
> >> It's all retaliatory. That's the beauty of the Hatfield/McCoy vicious
> > cycle.
> >> We retaliated against Iraq for 9/11, even though Iraq was not involved
> >> in the attack.
> >>
> >> No problem, we created a new policy of preemptive retaliation!
> >> Preemptive retaliation, think about that oxymoron. Very creative. Lots
> >> of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
> >>
> >> I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of
what
> >> you observed there illustrates the challenge we're talking about.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -Jamie
> >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>
> >>
> >> DJ wrote:
> >>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do
about
> >>> them?
> >>> Interesting that you should ask. there was recently a forum held at a
> > local
> >>> church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and
> > American
> >>> Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims
whether
> > they
> >>> would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of
> > other
> >>> religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds before
> > the
> >>> Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and he
> > never
> >>> gave a straight answer.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
news:44e3f062@linux...
> >>>> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
> >>>> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing
for
> >>>> disagreement.
> >>
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70063 is a reply to message #70062] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 04:09 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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>>
> >>>> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the
nightly
> >>>> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to Durango
> > to
> >>>> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors
concluded
> >>>> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on 'em!
> >>>>
> >>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do
about
> >>> them?
> >>>> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people
with
> >>>> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used
and
> >>>> manipulated in the process.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
> >>>>
> >>>> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet. They're
> >>>> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> -Jamie
> >>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> DJ wrote:
> >>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
the
> >>>>>> nature of reality.
> >>>>> I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the
> > nightly
> >>> news
> >>>>> bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who is
> >>>>> justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think I'd
> >>> rather
> >>>>> be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife
would
> >>> rather
> >>>>> die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> > news:44e3ae02@linux...
> >>>>>> One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive
> >>> dialog
> >>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
the
> >>>>>> nature of reality.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Great post, Sarah.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> -Jamie
> >>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sarah wrote:
> >>>>>>> (heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I
> >>> learned
> >>>>>>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel
> >>> compelled
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently
> >>> wrong
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still
trying
> >>> to
> >>>>> view
> >>>>>>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to
call
> >>>>> "me."
> >>>>>>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant.
> > Faith
> >>> is
> >>>>>>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not
> >>> rest
> >>>>> on
> >>>>>>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own
> > definition
> >>>>> if
> >>>>>>> you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to
me.
> >>> If
> >>>>> you
> >>>>>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I
believe
> > in
> >>>>>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
> >>>>>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
> >>>&g
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70064 is a reply to message #70062] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 04:16 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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t;>>>
> >>>>>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
> >>> personally
> >>>>> do
> >>>>>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I
see
> >>> no
> >>>>>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
> >>> claims.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel
> > truly
> >>>>>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe
> > this
> >>>>>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very
> > superficial
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think
> > it's
> >>>>> silly
> >>>>>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in
> > the
> >>>>> sky."
> >>>>>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the
> > opposite,
> >>> my
> >>>>>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient
> >>> dogma
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>> I have no reason to believe.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer
> > words:
> >>> I
> >>>>>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG
> > time
> >>>>> ago),
> >>>>>>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to
> > believe
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and a
> >>>>> smattering
> >>>>>>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because
it
> >>>>> claims
> >>>>>>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient
> > human
> >>>>> beings
> >>>>>>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible
is
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme
> > being.
> >>>>>>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you
believe
> > in
> >>> a
> >>>>> way
> >>>>>>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know
WHAT
> >>> you
> >>>>>>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some
years.
> >>>>> What I
> >>>>>>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope?
> > Because
> >>>>> you
> >>>>>>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your
> >>> parents
> >>>>>>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because you
> >>>>> happened
> >>>>>>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been
born
> >>> in
> >>>>>>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
> >>>>>>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does
this
> >>>>> make
> >>>>>>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough
of
> > a
> >>>>> threat
> >>>>>>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill
> > him?
> >>>>>>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to
share
> >>> with
> >>>>>>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no
right
> > or
> >>>>>>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in
God,
> >>>>> Heaven,
> >>>>>>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to
behave
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70065 is a reply to message #70063] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 04:17 |
Kim W
Messages: 165
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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> >>>>>>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based
effectually
> >>> on
> >>>>>>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis
> > is
> >>>>>>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
> >>> restrained
> >>>>> by
> >>>>>>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert
> > Einstein
> >>>>>>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because
the
> >>>>> evil of
> >>>>>>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about
> >>> what
> >>>>> has
> >>>>>>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
> >>> believe
> >>>>>>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about
> > the
> >>>>>>> potential consequences of this.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another
hour
> >>>>> that I
> >>>>>>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by
> > now
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer
clings
> >>> to
> >>>>>>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again,
> >>>>> beliefs
> >>>>>>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs
are
> >>> not
> >>>>>>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sarah
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message
> > news:44e23a46$1@linux...
> >>>>>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by
> >>> faith.
> >>>>>>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
> >>>>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call
> > God
> >>>>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
> >>>>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views
> > are
> >>>>>>>> human at the source.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
> >>>>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
> >>>>>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and
> > then
> >>>>> left
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
> >>> competition.
> >>>>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
> >>>>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
> >>>>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
> >>>>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical
and
> >>>>>>>>> effective
> >>>>>>>>> way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
> >>>>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
> >>>>>>>> rules".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
> >>>>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm
> > fine
> >>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be
fun
> > to
> >>>>&
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70066 is a reply to message #70062] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 04:18 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
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gt; say
> >>>>>>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be
honest
> >>>>> here
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even
> > then.
> >>>>> And
> >>>>>>>> I'm
> >>>>>>>>> sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me.
> >>> It's
> >>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
> >>> backward
> >>>>>>>>> human
> >>>>>>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been
> >>> inspired
> >>>>> by
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> supreme being.
> >>>>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
> >>>>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
> >>>>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
> >>>>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
> >>>>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
> >>>>>>>> themselves...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
> >>>>>>>> assumptions about existence.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead
> > Iraqis
> >>>>>>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile.
> > What
> >>>>> do
> >>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>> think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of
> >>> brown
> >>>>>>>>> rice?
> >>>>>>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists?
> >>> 100?
> >>>>>>>> 500?
> >>>>>>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were
innocent
> >>> and
> >>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>> families.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded
or
> >>>>> maimed.
> >>>>>>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can
> > think
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't,
but
> >>> it's
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
> >>> jumpsuits
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sarah
> >>>>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
> >>>>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in
all
> >>>>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
> >>>>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules,
you
> >>>>>>>> would have to.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring
> > themselves
> >>> to
> >>>>> do
> >>>>>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
> >>>>>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable e
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70067 is a reply to message #70066] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 04:23 |
no
Messages: 40
Registered: January 2008
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Member |
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nemy in many
> >>>>>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
> >>>>>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
> >>>>>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
> >>>>>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms,
to
> >>> kill
> >>>>>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
> >>>>>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
> >>>>>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> DC
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>
> >
> >Hi Jamie,
Here's some food for though vis-a-vis the Islamic fundamentalist situation
(as if thgere wasn't enough already).
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/wfchannel/index.php?pagenum =1
The links relative to women and human rights are pretty grotesque. Yeah, I
realize that there is the Guantanamo thing to counter with (though I don't
buy it personally) and the "well, look at our inhumane laws regarding drug
offenses and racism" argument ("some" of which I definitely do buy) but man,
the Islamic Utopia is in a whole 'nuther league.
"Sure m'am, we've got chardours. What shade of black would you prefer?
Here's something nice to match the color of the revolutionary jackboot."
Regards,
Deej
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e40472@linux...
>
> It's all retaliatory. That's the beauty of the Hatfield/McCoy vicious
cycle.
>
> We retaliated against Iraq for 9/11, even though Iraq was not involved
> in the attack.
>
> No problem, we created a new policy of preemptive retaliation!
> Preemptive retaliation, think about that oxymoron. Very creative. Lots
> of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
>
> I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of what
> you observed there illustrates the challenge we're talking about.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> DJ wrote:
> >> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
> > them?
> > Interesting that you should ask. there was recently a forum held at a
local
> > church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and
American
> > Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims whether
they
> > would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of
other
> > religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds before
the
> > Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and he
never
> > gave a straight answer.
> >
> >
> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e3f062@linux...
> >> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
> >> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing for
> >> disagreement.
> >>
> >> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the nightly
> >> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
> >>
> >> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to Durango
to
> >> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors concluded
> >> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on 'em!
> >>
> >> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
> > them?
> >> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people with
> >> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used and
> >> manipulated in the process.
> >>
> >> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
> >>
> >> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet. They're
> >> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -Jamie
> >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>
> >>
>
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70068 is a reply to message #70067] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 04:26 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>> DJ wrote:
> >>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about the
> >>>> nature of reality.
> >>> I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the
nightly
> > news
> >>> bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who is
> >>> justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think I'd
> > rather
> >>> be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife would
> > rather
> >>> die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
news:44e3ae02@linux...
> >>>> One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive
> > dialog
> >>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about the
> >>>> nature of reality.
> >>>>
> >>>> Great post, Sarah.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> -Jamie
> >>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Sarah wrote:
> >>>>> (heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I
> > learned
> >>>>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel
> > compelled
> >>> to
> >>>>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently
> > wrong
> >>> in
> >>>>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still trying
> > to
> >>> view
> >>>>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to call
> >>> "me."
> >>>>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant.
Faith
> > is
> >>>>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not
> > rest
> >>> on
> >>>>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own
definition
> >>> if
> >>>>> you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to me.
> > If
> >>> you
> >>>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I believe
in
> >>>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
> >>>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
> > personally
> >>> do
> >>>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I see
> > no
> >>>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
> > claims.
> >>> I
> >>>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel
truly
> >>>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe
this
> >>>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very
superficial
> >>> and
> >>>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think
it's
> >>> silly
> >>>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in
the
> >>> sky."
> >>>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the
opposite,
> > my
> >>>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient
> > dogma
> >>> that
> >>>>> I have no reason to believe.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer
words:
> > I
> >>>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG
time
> >>> ago),
> >>>>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to
believe
> >>> that
> >>>>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and a
> >>> smattering
> >>>>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because it
> >>> claims
> >>>>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient
human
> >>> beings
> >>>>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible is
> > the
> >>>>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme
being.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you believe
in
> > a
> >>> way
> >>>>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know WHAT
> > you
> >>>>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some years.
> >>> What I
> >>>>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope?
Because
> >>> you
> >>>>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your
> > parents
> >>>>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw J
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70069 is a reply to message #70059] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 05:33 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
esus? Because you
> >>> happened
> >>>>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been born
> > in
> >>>>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
> >>>>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does this
> >>> make
> >>>>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough of
a
> >>> threat
> >>>>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill
him?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to share
> > with
> >>>>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no right
or
> >>>>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in God,
> >>> Heaven,
> >>>>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to behave
> >>>>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually
> > on
> >>>>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis
is
> >>>>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
> > restrained
> >>> by
> >>>>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert
Einstein
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because the
> >>> evil of
> >>>>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about
> > what
> >>> has
> >>>>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
> > believe
> >>>>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about
the
> >>>>> potential consequences of this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another hour
> >>> that I
> >>>>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by
now
> >>> that
> >>>>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer clings
> > to
> >>>>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again,
> >>> beliefs
> >>>>> are by definition unproven, an
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70070 is a reply to message #70060] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 05:34 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
d therefore someone else's beliefs are
> > not
> >>>>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sarah
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message
news:44e23a46$1@linux...
> >>>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by
> > faith.
> >>>>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
> >>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call
God
> >>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
> >>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views
are
> >>>>>> human at the source.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
> >>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
> >>>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and
then
> >>> left
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
> > competition.
> >>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
> >>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
> >>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
> >>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical and
> >>>>>>> effective
> >>>>>>> way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
> >>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
> >>>>>> rules".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (o
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70071 is a reply to message #70060] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 06:00 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
therwise known as Sarah's
> >>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm
fine
> >>> with
> >>>>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be fun
to
> >>> say
> >>>>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be honest
> >>> here
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even
then.
> >>> And
> >>>>>> I'm
> >>>>>>> sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me.
> > It's
> >>> just
> >>>>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
> > backward
> >>>>>>> human
> >>>>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been
> > inspired
> >>> by
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> supreme being.
> >>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
> >>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
> >>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
> >>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
> >>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
> >>>>>> themselves...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
> >>>>>> assumptions about existence.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead
Iraqis
> >>>>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile.
What
> >>> do
> >>>>>> you
> >>>>>>> think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of
> > brown
> >>>>>>> rice?
> >>>>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists?
> > 100?
> >>>>>> 500?
> >>>>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were innocent
> > and
> >>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>> families.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded or
> >>> maimed.
> >>>>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can
think
> >>> of
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70072 is a reply to message #70063] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 06:03 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
/>
> >>>>>> some
> >>>>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't, but
> > it's
> >>> a
> >>>>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
> > jumpsuits
> >>> and
> >>>>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sarah
> >>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
> >>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in all
> >>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
> >>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules, you
> >>>>>> would have to.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring
themselves
> > to
> >>> do
> >>>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
> >>>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
> >>>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
> >>>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
> >>>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
> >>>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms, to
> > kill
> >>>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
> >>>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
> >>>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> DC
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >
> >"DC" <dc@spammersinchulavista.org> wrote in message
<SNIP>
http://www.novaxguitars.com/
DBUnless the person I'm working with is freakin annoying, I love it when the
client sits in. I get some conversation, the mix usually comes out a little
better for the client because they got their "input" in, and last but most
importantly, I get a bigger check because we spent more time doing it.
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the 'studio industry' in fairly
big
>trouble? Also, in my two lines of work, writer and IT consultant, I think
>that the client should be treated with a great deal of respect. After all,
>the client keeps my lights turned on and gas in my car and my greens fees
>paid. Are you guys all making so much money that you can treat your employers
>like shit and get away with it? Wish I had that job . . .
>
>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>gene Lennon wrote:
>>> "Jesse Skeens" <jskeens@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I have a few potential clients that would like to sit in on a session
>while
>>>> I mix their tracks. I figure this will take extra time so it seems
fair
>>>> to charge and hourly rate on top of the flat fee for the mix.
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas?
>>>>
>>>> Jesse
>>>
>>>
>>> What you need is a big sign in your control room.
>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________
>>> MIX RATES
>>>
>>> Standard Rate – $25/hour
>>> You Watch - $35/hour
>>> You Comment - $50/hour
>>> You Help - $100/hour
>>> _________________________
>>>
>>That made me laugh. Thanks.
>I am not a fan of dictatorships, theocracies or royalty. So you don't
have to waste any time convincing me on that point. But I'll check out
your link.
I am also not a fan of scapegoating and generalizing to justify war.
I am a fan of freedom, including freedom of religion. Aggressive
self-righteousness by any group is problematic. Too bad it works so well
for empire building. It's certainly something to be aware of in other
countries and especially in our own.
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
DJ wrote:
> Hi Jamie,
>
> Here's some food for though vis-a-vis the Islamic fundamentalist situation
> (as if thgere wasn't enough already).
>
> http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/wfchannel/index.php?pagenum =1
>
> The links relative to women and human rights are pretty grotesque. Yeah, I
> realize that there is the Guantanamo thing to counter with (though I don't
> buy it personally) and the "well, look at our inhumane laws regarding drug
> offenses and racism" argument ("some" of which I definitely do buy) but man,
> the Islamic Utopia is in a whole 'nuther league.
>
> "Sure m'am, we've got chardours. What shade of black would you prefer?
> Here's something nice to match the color of the revolutionary jackboot."
>
> Regards,
>
> Deej
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e40472@linux...
>> It's all retaliatory. That's the beauty of the Hatfield/McCoy vicious
> cycle.
>> We retaliated against Iraq for 9/11, even though Iraq was not involved
>> in the attack.
>>
>> No problem, we created a new policy of preemptive retaliation!
>> Preemptive retaliation, think about that oxymoron. Very creative. Lots
>> of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
>>
>> I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of what
>> you observed there illustrates the challenge we're talking about.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
>>> them?
>>> Interesting that you should ask. there was recently a forum held at a
> local
>>> church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and
> American
>>> Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims whether
> they
>>> would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of
> other
>>> religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds before
> the
>>> Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and he
> never
>>> gave a straight answer.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e3f062@linux...
>>>> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
>>>> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing for
>>>> disagreement.
>>>>
>>>> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the nightly
>>>> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
>>>>
>>>> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to Durango
> to
>>>> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors concluded
>>>> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on 'em!
>>>>
>>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
>>> them?
>>>> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people with
>>>> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used and
>>>> manipulated in the process.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
>>>>
>>>> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet. They're
>>>> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about the
>>>>>> nature of reality.
>>>>> I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the
> nightly
>>> news
>>>>> bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who is
>>>>> justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think I'd
>>> rather
>>>>> be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife would
>>> rather
>>>>> die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> news:44e3ae02@linux...
>>>>>> One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive
>>> dialog
>>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about the
>>>>>> nature of reality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Great post, Sarah.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>>>> (heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I
>>> learned
>>>>>>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel
>>> compelled
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently
>>> wrong
>>>>> in
>>>>>>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still trying
>>> to
>>>>> view
>>>>>>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to call
>>>>> "me."
>>>>>>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant.
> Faith
>>> is
>>>>>>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not
>>> rest
>>>>> on
>>>>>>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own
> definition
>>>>> if
>>>>>>> you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to me.
>>> If
>>>>> you
>>>>>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I believe
> in
>>>>>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
>>>>>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
>>> personally
>>>>> do
>>>>>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I see
>>> no
>>>>>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
>>> claims.
>>>>> I
>>>>>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel
> truly
>>>>>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe
> this
>>>>>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very
> superficial
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think
> it's
>>>>> silly
>>>>>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in
> the
>>>>> sky."
>>>>>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the
> opposite,
>>> my
>>>>>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient
>>> dogma
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> I have no reason to believe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer
> words:
>>> I
>>>>>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG
> time
>>>>> ago),
>>>>>>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to
> believe
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and a
>>>>> smattering
>>>>>>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because it
>>>>> claims
>>>>>>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient
> human
>>>>> beings
>>>>>>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible is
>>> the
>>>>>>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme
> being.
>>>>>>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you believe
> in
>>> a
>>>>> way
>>>>>>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know WHAT
>>> you
>>>>>>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some years.
>>>>> What I
>>>>>>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope?
> Because
>>>>> you
>>>>>>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your
>>> parents
>>>>>>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because you
>>>>> happened
>>>>>>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been born
>>> in
>>>>>>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
>>>>>>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does this
>>>>> make
>>>>>>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough of
> a
>>>>> threat
>>>>>>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill
> him?
>>>>>>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to share
>>> with
>>>>>>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no right
> or
>>>>>>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in God,
>>>>> Heaven,
>>>>>>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to behave
>>>>>>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually
>>> on
>>>>>>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis
> is
>>>>>>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
>>> restrained
>>>>> by
>>>>>>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert
> Einstein
>>>>>>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because the
>>>>> evil of
>>>>>>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about
>>> what
>>>>> has
>>>>>>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
>>> believe
>>>>>>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about
> the
>>>>>>> potential consequences of this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another hour
>>>>> that I
>>>>>>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by
> now
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer clings
>>> to
>>>>>>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again,
>>>>> beliefs
>>>>>>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs are
>>> not
>>>>>>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message
> news:44e23a46$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by
>>> faith.
>>>>>>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
>>>>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call
> God
>>>>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
>>>>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that a
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70073 is a reply to message #70064] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 06:03 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
ll views
> are
>>>>>>>> human at the source.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
>>>>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
>>>>>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and
> then
>>>>> left
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
>>> competition.
>>>>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
>>>>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
>>>>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
>>>>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical and
>>>>>>>>> effective
>>>>>>>>> way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
>>>>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
>>>>>>>> rules".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
>>>>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm
> fine
>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be fun
> to
>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be honest
>>>>> here
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even
> then.
>>>>> And
>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>> sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me.
>>> It's
>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
>>> backward
>>>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been
>>> inspired
>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> supreme being.
>>>>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
>>>>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
>>>>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
>>>>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
>>>>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
>>>>>>>> themselves...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
>>>>>>>> assumptions about existence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead
> Iraqis
>>>>>>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile.
> What
>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of
>>> brown
>>>>>>>>> rice?
>>>>>>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists?
>>> 100?
>>>>>>>> 500?
>>>>>>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were innocent
>>> and
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> families.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded or
>>>>> maimed.
>>>>>>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can
> think
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't, but
>>> it's
>>>>> a
>>&
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70074 is a reply to message #70068] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 06:05 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
gt;>>>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
>>> jumpsuits
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
>>>>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in all
>>>>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
>>>>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules, you
>>>>>>>> would have to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring
> themselves
>>> to
>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
>>>>>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
>>>>>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
>>>>>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
>>>>>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
>>>>>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms, to
>>> kill
>>>>>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
>>>>>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
>>>>>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>
>
>Yes I did answer your question. Islam CAN spread without conquest, we
see it right here in the USA.
So if your point is that it cannot spread with conquest, yes it can and
I gave an example.
On the flip side, Christianity and other religions can and have spread
via conquest. So Islam is not alone in being spread by conquest and
being spread without conquest.
You can argue degrees over history but you can't make a blanket
statement that Islam (or Christianity) is only spread through conquest.
And although it clearly has at times been spread via conquest, you can't
accurately claim that Islam is the only religion to ever be spread
through conquest. You have to look at the larger issue of conquest and
religions overall. Or conquest and enforced atheism, for that matter.
I think the important difference today is that we have a special country
that guarantees freedom of religion. So you can be an atheist and I can
be Islamic. Or I can be Baptist and you can be Unitarian. I can be
Branch Davidian Reformed and you can be Pagan. I can be MAC-IAN and you
can be MICROSOFT-IAN (oops, wrong religious debate... ;^)
One of the biggest challenges we face, back to my point again, is how to
have constructive dialog between people who operate from very different
assumptions about the nature of reality.
I think Jefferson had it right. Let people freely choose their religious
affiliations, and keep any one religion from being the official
religion. This requires a tolerance for freedom that sometimes bothers
the more aggressively self-righteous sects but it keeps them from
shooting at each other.
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
DJ wrote:
> But you still didn't answer my question. Can you name even one? Yes, there
> are examples of Chiristianity being spread by conquest, but there are also
> many examples where it wasn't. In this country, people can practice any
> religion they want. Is that true in countries that are Muslim theocracies?
> Can you name even one?
>
> Deej
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e47542@linux...
>> How about Hinduism? Sikhism? Buddhism?
>>
>> People have converted to Islam right here in the USA. I don't think
>> we've been conquered by anyone lately (aside from the neo-con takeover
>> still in progress, maybe neo-cons are secretly Islamic? ;^)
>>
>> I will grant you that conquering and spreading religious doctrine have
>> gone hand in hand in the past, notably by various Islamic AND Christian
>> sects. You start mixing religion and government and that's what you get.
>> Religion becomes a tool of empire.
>>
>> I'm with Jefferson on this one.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>>> Jamie,
>>>
>>> Can you name even one instance wherein a population becaume Muslim by
> any
>>> means other than military conquest?
>>>
>>> Deej
>>>
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e40472@linux...
>>>> It's all retaliatory. That's the beauty of the Hatfield/McCoy vicious
>>> cycle.
>>>> We retaliated against Iraq for 9/11, even though Iraq was not involved
>>>> in the attack.
>>>>
>>>> No problem, we created a new policy of preemptive retaliation!
>>>> Preemptive retaliation, think about that oxymoron. Very creative. Lots
>>>> of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
>>>>
>>>> I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of
> what
>>>> you observed there illustrates the challenge we're talking about.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do
> about
>>>>> them?
>>>>> Interesting that you s
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70075 is a reply to message #70073] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 06:12 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
hould ask. there was recently a forum held at a
>>> local
>>>>> church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and
>>> American
>>>>> Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims
> whether
>>> they
>>>>> would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of
>>> other
>>>>> religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds before
>>> the
>>>>> Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and he
>>> never
>>>>> gave a straight answer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> news:44e3f062@linux...
>>>>>> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
>>>>>> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing
> for
>>>>>> disagreement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the
> nightly
>>>>>> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to Durango
>>> to
>>>>>> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors
> concluded
>>>>>> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on 'em!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do
> about
>>>>> them?
>>>>>> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people
> with
>>>>>> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used
> and
>>>>>> manipulated in the process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet. They're
>>>>>> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
> the
>>>>>>>> nature of reality.
>>>>>>> I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the
>>> nightly
>>>>> news
>>>>>>> bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who is
>>>>>>> justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think I'd
>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife
> would
>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>> news:44e3ae02@linux...
>>>>>>>> One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive
>>>>> dialog
>>>>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
> the
>>>>>>>> nature of reality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Great post, Sarah.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>>>>>> (heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I
>>>>> learned
>>>>>>>>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel
>>>>> compelled
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently
>>>>> wrong
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still
> trying
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> view
>>>>>>>>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to
> call
>>>>>>> "me."
>>>>>>>>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant.
>>> Faith
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not
>>>>> rest
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own
>>> definition
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to
> me.
>>>>> If
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I
> believe
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70076 is a reply to message #70069] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 06:28 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>>> in
>>>>>>>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
>>>>>>>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
>>>>> personally
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I
> see
>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
>>>>> claims.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel
>>> truly
>>>>>>>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe
>>> this
>>>>>>>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very
>>> superficial
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think
>>> it's
>>>>>>> silly
>>>>>>>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in
>>> the
>>>>>>> sky."
>>>>>>>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the
>>> opposite,
>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient
>>>>> dogma
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> I have no reason to believe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer
>>> words:
>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG
>>> time
>>>>>>> ago),
>>>>>>>>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to
>>> believe
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and a
>>>>>>> smattering
>>>>>>>>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because
> it
>>>>>>> claims
>>>>>>>>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient
>>> human
>>>>>>> beings
>>>>>>>>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible
> is
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme
>>> being.
>>>>>>>>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you
> believe
>>> in
>>>>> a
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know
> WHAT
>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some
> years.
>>>>>>> What I
>>>>>>>>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope?
>>> Because
>>>>>>> you
>>
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70077 is a reply to message #70076] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 06:42 |
Kim W
Messages: 165
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
;>>>>>>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your
>>>>> parents
>>>>>>>>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because you
>>>>>>> happened
>>>>>>>>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been
> born
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
>>>>>>>>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does
> this
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough
> of
>>> a
>>>>>>> threat
>>>>>>>>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill
>>> him?
>>>>>>>>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to
> share
>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no
> right
>>> or
>>>>>>>>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in
> God,
>>>>>>> Heaven,
>>>>>>>>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to
> behave
>>>>>>>>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based
> effectually
>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis
>>> is
>>>>>>>>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
>>>>> restrained
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert
>>> Einstein
>>>>>>>>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because
> the
>>>>>>> evil of
>>>>>>>>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about
>>>>> what
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about
>>> the
>>>>>>>>> potential consequences of this.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another
> hour
>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>>>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by
>>> now
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer
> clings
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again,
>>>>>>> beliefs
>>>>>>>>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs
> are
>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message
>>> news:44e23a46$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>> "Sarah"
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70078 is a reply to message #70077] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 06:47 |
Kim W
Messages: 165
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
<sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by
>>>>> faith.
>>>>>>>>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
>>>>>>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call
>>> God
>>>>>>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
>>>>>>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views
>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> human at the source.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
>>>>>>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
>>>>>>>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and
>>> then
>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
>>>>> competition.
>>>>>>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
>>>>>>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
>>>>>>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
>>>>>>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical
> and
>>>>>>>>>>> effective
>>>>>>>>>>> way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
>>>>>>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
>>>>>>>>>> rules".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
>>>>>>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm
>>> fine
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be
> fun
>>> to
>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be
> honest
>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even
>>> then.
>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me.
>>>>> It's
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
>>>>> backward
>>>>>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>>>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been
>>>>> inspired
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> supreme being.
>>>>>>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
>>>>>>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
>>>>>>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
>>>>>>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70079 is a reply to message #70077] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 06:54 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
/>
>>>>>>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
>>>>>>>>>> themselves...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
>>>>>>>>>> assumptions about existence.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead
>>> Iraqis
>>>>>>>>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile.
>>> What
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of
>>>>> brown
>>>>>>>>>>> rice?
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists?
>>>>> 100?
>>>>>>>>>> 500?
>>>>>>>>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were
> innocent
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> families.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded
> or
>>>>>>> maimed.
>>>>>>>>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can
>>> think
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't,
> but
>>>>> it's
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
>>>>> jumpsuits
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
>>>>>>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in
> all
>>>>>>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
>>>>>>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules,
> you
>>>>>>>>>> would have to.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring
>>> themselves
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
>>>>>>>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
>>>>>>>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
>>>>>>>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
>>>>>>>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
>>>>>>>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms,
> to
>>>>> kill
>>>>>>>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
>>>>>>>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
>>>>>>>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>
>I doubt very seriously that this country is going to become an Islamic
theocracy without just a little conflits here and there.
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e490b7@linux...
>
> Yes I did answer your question. Islam CAN spread without conquest, we
> see it right here in the USA.
>
> So if your point is that it cannot spread with conquest, yes it can and
> I gave an example.
>
> On the flip side, Christianity and other religions can and have spread
> via conquest. So Isl
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70080 is a reply to message #70078] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 06:55 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
am is not alone in being spread by conquest and
> being spread without conquest.
>
> You can argue degrees over history but you can't make a blanket
> statement that Islam (or Christianity) is only spread through conquest.
>
> And although it clearly has at times been spread via conquest, you can't
> accurately claim that Islam is the only religion to ever be spread
> through conquest. You have to look at the larger issue of conquest and
> religions overall. Or conquest and enforced atheism, for that matter.
>
> I think the important difference today is that we have a special country
> that guarantees freedom of religion. So you can be an atheist and I can
> be Islamic. Or I can be Baptist and you can be Unitarian. I can be
> Branch Davidian Reformed and you can be Pagan. I can be MAC-IAN and you
> can be MICROSOFT-IAN (oops, wrong religious debate... ;^)
>
> One of the biggest challenges we face, back to my point again, is how to
> have constructive dialog between people who operate from very different
> assumptions about the nature of reality.
>
> I think Jefferson had it right. Let people freely choose their religious
> affiliations, and keep any one religion from being the official
> religion. This requires a tolerance for freedom that sometimes bothers
> the more aggressively self-righteous sects but it keeps them from
> shooting at each other.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> DJ wrote:
> > But you still didn't answer my question. Can you name even one? Yes,
there
> > are examples of Chiristianity being spread by conquest, but there are
also
> > many examples where it wasn't. In this country, people can practice any
> > religion they want. Is that true in countries that are Muslim
theocracies?
> > Can you name even one?
> >
> > Deej
> >
> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e47542@linux...
> >> How about Hinduism? Sikhism? Buddhism?
> >>
> >> People have converted to Islam right here in the USA. I don't think
> >> we've been conquered by anyone lately (aside from the neo-con takeover
> >> still in progress, maybe neo-cons are secretly Islamic? ;^)
> >>
> >> I will grant you that conquering and spreading religious doctrine have
> >> gone hand in hand in the past, notably by various Islamic AND Christian
> >> sects. You start mixing religion and government and that's what you
get.
> >> Religion becomes a tool of empire.
> >>
> >> I'm with Jefferson on this one.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -Jamie
> >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>
> >>
> >> DJ wrote:
> >>> Jamie,
> >>>
> >>> Can you name even one instance wherein a population becaume Muslim by
> > any
> >>> means other than military conquest?
> >>>
> >>> Deej
> >>>
> >>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
news:44e40472@linux...
> >>>> It's all retaliatory. That's the beauty of the Hatfield/McCoy vicious
> >>> cycle.
> >>>> We retaliated against Iraq for 9/11, even though Iraq was not
involved
> >>>> in the attack.
> >>>>
> >>>> No problem, we created a new policy of preemptive retaliation!
> >>>> Preemptive retaliation, think about that oxymoron. Very creative.
Lots
> >>>> of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
> >>>>
> >>>> I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of
> > what
> >>>> you observed there illustrates the challenge we're talking about.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> -Jamie
> >>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> DJ wrote:
> >>>>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do
> > about
> >>>>> them?
> >>>>> Interesting that you should ask. there was recently a forum held at
a
> >>> local
> >>>>> church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and
> >>> American
> >>>>> Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims
> > whether
> >>>
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70081 is a reply to message #70080] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 07:09 |
Kim W
Messages: 165
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
they
> >>>>> would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of
> >>> other
> >>>>> religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds
before
> >>> the
> >>>>> Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and
he
> >>> never
> >>>>> gave a straight answer.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> > news:44e3f062@linux...
> >>>>>> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
> >>>>>> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing
> > for
> >>>>>> disagreement.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the
> > nightly
> >>>>>> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to
Durango
> >>> to
> >>>>>> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors
> > concluded
> >>>>>> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on
'em!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do
> > about
> >>>>> them?
> >>>>>> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people
> > with
> >>>>>> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used
> > and
> >>>>>> manipulated in the process.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet.
They're
> >>>>>> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> -Jamie
> >>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> DJ wrote:
> >>>>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
> > the
> >>>>>>>> nature of reality.
> >>>>>>> I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the
> >>> nightly
> >>>>> news
> >>>>>>> bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who
is
> >>>>>>> justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think
I'd
> >>>>> rather
> >>>>>>> be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife
> > would
> >>>>> rather
> >>>>>>> die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:44e3ae02@linux...
> >>>>>>>> One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive
> >>>>> dialog
> >>>>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
> > the
> >>>>>>>> nature of reality.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Great post, Sarah.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>> -Jamie
> >>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sarah wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> (heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I
> >>>>> learned
> >>>>>>>>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel
> >>>>> compelled
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much
consistently
> >>>>> wrong
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still
> > trying
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> view
> >>>>>>>>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to
> > call
> >>>>>>> "me."
> >>>>>>>>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant.
> >>> Faith
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does
not
> >>>>> rest
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own
> >>> definition
> >>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>> you need to, but that's from the dictiona
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70082 is a reply to message #70081] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 07:14 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
ry, and makes sense to
> > me.
> >>>>> If
> >>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I
> > believe
> >>> in
> >>>>>>>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
> >>>>>>>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
> >>>>> personally
> >>>>>>> do
> >>>>>>>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I
> > see
> >>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
> >>>>> claims.
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel
> >>> truly
> >>>>>>>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to
describe
> >>> this
> >>>>>>>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very
> >>> superficial
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I
think
> >>> it's
> >>>>>>> silly
> >>>>>>>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy
in
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> sky."
> >>>>>>>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the
> >>> opposite,
> >>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to
ancient
> >>>>> dogma
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> I have no reason to believe.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer
> >>> words:
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17
(LONG
> >>> time
> >>>>>>> ago),
> >>>>>>>>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to
> >>> believe
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and
a
> >>>>>>> smattering
> >>>>>>>>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because
> > it
> >>>>>>> claims
> >>>>>>>>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient
> >>> human
> >>>>>>> beings
> >>>>>>>>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the
bible
> > is
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme
> >>> being.
> >>>>>>>>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you
> > believe
> >>> in
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know
> > WHAT
> >>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some
> > years.
> >>>>>>> What I
> >>>>>>>>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope?
> >>> Because
> >>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your
> >>>>> parents
> >>>>>>>>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because
you
> >>>>>>> happened
> >>>>>>>>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been
> > born
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a
supposedly
> >>>>>>>>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does
> > this
> >>>>>>> make
> >>>>>>>>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough
> > of
> >>> a
> >>>>>>> threat
> >>>>>>>>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill
> >>> him?
> >>>>>>>>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to
> > share
> >>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no
> > right
> >>> or
> >>>>>>>>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in
> > God,
> >>>>>>> Heaven,
> >>>>>>>>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to
> > behave
> >>>>>>>>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based
> > effectually
> >>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious
basis
> >>> is
> >>>>>>>>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
> >>>>> restrained
> >>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>>>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert
> >>> Einstein
> >>>>>>>>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because
> > the
> >>>>>>> evil of
> >>>>>>>>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned
about
> >>>>> what
> >>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
> >>>>> believe
> >>>>>>>>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried
about
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>>> potential consequences of t
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70083 is a reply to message #70060] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 08:31 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
his.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another
> > hour
> >>>>>>> that I
> >>>>>>>>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned
by
> >>> now
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer
> > clings
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but
again,
> >>>>>>> beliefs
> >>>>>>>>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs
> > are
> >>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sarah
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:44e23a46$1@linux...
> >>>>>>>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded
by
> >>>>> faith.
> >>>>>>>>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
> >>>>>>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to
call
> >>> God
> >>>>>>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source
is
> >>>>>>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all
views
> >>> are
> >>>>>>>>>> human at the source.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
> >>>>>>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
> >>>>>>>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!"
and
> >>> then
> >>>>>>> left
> >>>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
> >>>>> competition.
> >>>>>>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
> >>>>>>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive,
bake
> &g
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70084 is a reply to message #70083] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 08:36 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
t;>>>>>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care
if
> >>>>>>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical
> > and
> >>>>>>>>>>> effective
> >>>>>>>>>>> way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
> >>>>>>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
> >>>>>>>>>> rules".
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as
Sarah's
> >>>>>>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care.
I'm
> >>> fine
> >>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be
> > fun
> >>> to
> >>>>>>> say
> >>>>>>>>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be
> > honest
> >>>>>>> here
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even
> >>> then.
> >>>>>>> And
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm
> >>>>>>>>>>> sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for
me.
> >>>>> It's
> >>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
> >>>>> backward
> >>>>>>>>>>> human
> >>>>>>>>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been
> >>>>> inspired
> >>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> supreme being.
> >>>>>>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
> >>>>>>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does
not
> >>>>>>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded
in
> >>>>>>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection
are
> >>>>>>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
> >>>>>>>>>> themselves...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
> >>>>>>>>>> assumptions about existence.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead
> >>> Iraqis
> >>>>>>>>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile.
> >>> What
> >>>>>>> do
> >>>>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>>>> think .
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70085 is a reply to message #70083] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 08:41 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
. . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl
of
> >>>>> brown
> >>>>>>>>>>> rice?
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were
terrorists?
> >>>>> 100?
> >>>>>>>>>> 500?
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were
> > innocent
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>>>> families.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded
> > or
> >>>>>>> maimed.
> >>>>>>>>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can
> >>> think
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't,
> > but
> >>>>> it's
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
> >>>>> jumpsuits
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sarah
> >>>>>>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are
no
> >>>>>>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in
> > all
> >>>>>>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from
Dresden
> >>>>>>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules,
> > you
> >>>>>>>>>> would have to.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring
> >>> themselves
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> do
> >>>>>>>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
> >>>>>>>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
> >>>>>>>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
> >>>>>>>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for
the
> >>>>>>>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
> >>>>>>>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms,
> > to
> >>>>> kill
> >>>>>>>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
> >>>>>>>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
> >>>>>>>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> DC
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>
> >
> >We're a lot closer to becoming a Christian theocracy at the moment.
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
DJ wrote:
> I doubt very seriously that this country is going to become an Islamic
> theocracy without just a little conflits here and there.
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e490b7@linux...
>> Yes I did answer your question. Islam CAN spread without conquest, we
>> see it right here in the USA.
>>
>> So if your point is that it cannot spread with conquest, yes it can and
>> I gave an example.
>>
>> On the flip side, Christianity and other religions can and have spread
>> via conquest. So Islam is not alone in being spread by conquest and
>> being spread without conquest.
>>
>> You can argue degrees over history but you can't make a blanket
>> sta
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70086 is a reply to message #70084] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 08:45 |
Kim W
Messages: 165
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
tement that Islam (or Christianity) is only spread through conquest.
>>
>> And although it clearly has at times been spread via conquest, you can't
>> accurately claim that Islam is the only religion to ever be spread
>> through conquest. You have to look at the larger issue of conquest and
>> religions overall. Or conquest and enforced atheism, for that matter.
>>
>> I think the important difference today is that we have a special country
>> that guarantees freedom of religion. So you can be an atheist and I can
>> be Islamic. Or I can be Baptist and you can be Unitarian. I can be
>> Branch Davidian Reformed and you can be Pagan. I can be MAC-IAN and you
>> can be MICROSOFT-IAN (oops, wrong religious debate... ;^)
>>
>> One of the biggest challenges we face, back to my point again, is how to
>> have constructive dialog between people who operate from very different
>> assumptions about the nature of reality.
>>
>> I think Jefferson had it right. Let people freely choose their religious
>> affiliations, and keep any one religion from being the official
>> religion. This requires a tolerance for freedom that sometimes bothers
>> the more aggressively self-righteous sects but it keeps them from
>> shooting at each other.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>>> But you still didn't answer my question. Can you name even one? Yes,
> there
>>> are examples of Chiristianity being spread by conquest, but there are
> also
>>> many examples where it wasn't. In this country, people can practice any
>>> religion they want. Is that true in countries that are Muslim
> theocracies?
>>> Can you name even one?
>>>
>>> Deej
>>>
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e47542@linux...
>>>> How about Hinduism? Sikhism? Buddhism?
>>>>
>>>> People have converted to Islam right here in the USA. I don't think
>>>> we've been conquered by anyone lately (aside from the neo-con takeover
>>>> still in progress, maybe neo-cons are secretly Islamic? ;^)
>>>>
>>>> I will grant you that conquering and spreading religious doctrine have
>>>> gone hand in hand in the past, notably by various Islamic AND Christian
>>>> sects. You start mixing religion and government and that's what you
> get.
>>>> Religion becomes a tool of empire.
>>>>
>>>> I'm with Jefferson on this one.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>> Jamie,
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you name even one instance wherein a population becaume Muslim by
>>> any
>>>>> means other than military conquest?
>>>>>
>>>>> Deej
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> news:44e40472@linux...
>>>>>> It's all retaliatory. That's the beauty of the Hatfield/McCoy vicious
>>>>> cycle.
>>>>>> We retaliated against Iraq for 9/11, even though Iraq was not
> involved
>>>>>> in the attack.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No problem, we created a new policy of preemptive retaliation!
>>>>>> Preemptive retaliation, think about that oxymoron. Very creative.
> Lots
>>>>>> of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of
>>> what
>>>>>> you observed there illustrates the challenge we're talking about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70088 is a reply to message #70086] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 08:56 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
etween people who operate from very different assumptions about
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> nature of reality.
>>>>>>>>> I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the
>>>>> nightly
>>>>>>> news
>>>>>>>>> bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who
> is
>>>>>>>>> justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think
> I'd
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>> be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife
>>> would
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>> die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:44e3ae02@linux...
>>>>>>>>>> One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive
>>>>>>> dialog
>>>>>>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> nature of reality.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Great post, Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> (heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I
>>>>>>> learned
>>>>>>>>>>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel
>>>>>>> compelled
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much
> consistently
>>>>>>> wrong
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still
>>> trying
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> view
>>>>>>>>>>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to
>>> call
>>>>>>>>> "me."
>>>>>>>>>>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant.
>>>>> Faith
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does
> not
>>>>>>> rest
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own
>>>>> definition
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>> you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to
>
>>> me.
>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I
>>> believe
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
>>>>>>>>>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I
>>> see
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
>>>>>>> claims.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel
>>>>> truly
>>>>>>>>>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to
> describe
>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very
>>>>> superficial
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I
> think
>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> silly
>>>>>>>>>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy
> in
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> sky."
>>>>>>>>>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the
>>>>> opposite,
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to
> ancient
>>>>>>> dogma
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70089 is a reply to message #70086] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 09:07 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
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>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> I have no reason to believe.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer
>>>>> words:
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17
> (LONG
>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>> ago),
>>>>>>>>>>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to
>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and
> a
>>>>>>>>> smattering
>>>>>>>>>>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because
>>> it
>>>>>>>>> claims
>>>>>>>>>>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient
>>>>> human
>>>>>>>>> beings
>>>>>>>>>>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the
> bible
>>> is
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme
>>>>> being.
>>>>>>>>>>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you
>>> believe
>>>>> in
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know
>>> WHAT
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some
>>> years.
>>>>>>>>> What I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope?
>>>>> Because
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your
>>>>>>> parents
>>>>>>>>>>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because
> you
>>>>>>>>> happened
>>>>>>>>>>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been
>>> born
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a
> supposedly
>>>>>>>>>>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does
>>> this
>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough
>>> of
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> threat
>>>>>>>>>>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill
>>>>> him?
>>>>>>>>>>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to
>>> share
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no
>>> right
>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in
>>> God,
>>>>>>>>> Heaven,
>>>>>>>>>>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to
>>> behave
>>>>>>>>>>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based
>>> effectually
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious
> basis
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
>>>>>>> restrained
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert
>>>>> Einstein
>>>>>>>>>>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because
>>> the
>>>>>>>>> evil of
>>>>>>>>>>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned
> about
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried
> about
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> potential consequences of this.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another
>>> hour
>>>>>&g
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70090 is a reply to message #70085] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 09:05 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
t;>>> that I
>>>>>>>>>>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned
> by
>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer
>>> clings
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but
> again,
>>>>>>>>> beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs
>>> are
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:44e23a46$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded
> by
>>>>>>> faith.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to
> call
>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source
> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all
> views
>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> human at the source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
>>>>>>>>>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!"
> and
>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
>>>>>>> competition.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive,
> bake
>>>>>>>>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care
> if
>>>>>>>>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical
>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> effective
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
>>>>>>>>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
>>>>>>>>>>>> rules".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as
> Sarah's
>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care.
> I'm
>>>>> fine
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be
>>> fun
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be
>>> honest
>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even
>>>>> then.
>>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sorry, but "because the bibl
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70091 is a reply to message #70088] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 09:15 |
Kim W
Messages: 165
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
e tells me so" doesn't work for
> me.
>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
>>>>>>> backward
>>>>>>>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>>>>>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been
>>>>>>> inspired
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> supreme being.
>>>>>>>>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does
> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded
> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection
> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
>>>>>>>>>>>> assumptions about existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead
>>>>> Iraqis
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile.
>>>>> What
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl
> of
>>>>>>> brown
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were
> terrorists?
>>>>>>> 100?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 500?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were
>>> innocent
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> families.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded
>>> or
>>>>>>>>> maimed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can
>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't,
>>> but
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
>>>>>>> jumpsuits
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>>>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are
> no
>>>>>>>>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in
>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from
> Dresden
>>>>>>>>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules,
>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> would have to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring
>>>>> themselves
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
>>>>>>>>>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
>>>>>>>>>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for
> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
>>>>>>>>>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms,
>>> to
>>>>>>> kill
>>>>>>>>>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
>>>>>>>>>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
>>>>>>>>>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>
>Are Christians doing this to former Christians who decide to convert to
Islam?
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=82 16
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e490b1@linux...
>
> I am not a fan of dictatorships, theocracies or royalty. So you don't
> have to waste any time convincing me on that point. But I'll check out
> your link.
>
> I am also not a fan of sca
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70092 is a reply to message #70091] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 09:26 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
pegoating and generalizing to justify war.
>
> I am a fan of freedom, including freedom of religion. Aggressive
> self-righteousness by any group is problematic. Too bad it works so well
> for empire building. It's certainly something to be aware of in other
> countries and especially in our own.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
> DJ wrote:
> > Hi Jamie,
> >
> > Here's some food for though vis-a-vis the Islamic fundamentalist
situation
> > (as if thgere wasn't enough already).
> >
> > http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/wfchannel/index.php?pagenum =1
> >
> > The links relative to women and human rights are pretty grotesque. Yeah,
I
> > realize that there is the Guantanamo thing to counter with (though I
don't
> > buy it personally) and the "well, look at our inhumane laws regarding
drug
> > offenses and racism" argument ("some" of which I definitely do buy) but
man,
> > the Islamic Utopia is in a whole 'nuther league.
> >
> > "Sure m'am, we've got chardours. What shade of black would you prefer?
> > Here's something nice to match the color of the revolutionary jackboot."
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Deej
> >
> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e40472@linux...
> >> It's all retaliatory. That's the beauty of the Hatfield/McCoy vicious
> > cycle.
> >> We retaliated against Iraq for 9/11, even though Iraq was not involved
> >> in the attack.
> >>
> >> No problem, we created a new policy of preemptive retaliation!
> >> Preemptive retaliation, think about that oxymoron. Very creative. Lots
> >> of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
> >>
> >> I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of
what
> >> you observed there illustrates the challenge we're talking about.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -Jamie
> >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>
> >>
> >> DJ wrote:
> >>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do
about
> >>> them?
> >>> Interesting that you should ask. there was recently a forum held at a
> > local
> >>> church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and
> > American
> >>> Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims
whether
> > they
> >>> would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of
> > other
> >>> religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds before
> > the
> >>> Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and he
> > never
> >>> gave a straight answer.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
news:44e3f062@linux...
> >>>> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
> >>>> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing
for
> >>>> disagreement.
> >>>>
> >>>> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the
nightly
> >>>> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to Durango
> > to
> >>>> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors
concluded
> >>>> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on 'em!
> >>>>
> >>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do
about
> >>> them?
> >>>> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people
with
> >>>> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used
and
> >>>> manipulated in the process.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
> >>>>
> >>>> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet. They're
> >>>> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> -Jamie
> >>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> DJ wrote:
> >>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
the
> >>>>>> nature of reality.
> >>>>> I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the
> > nightly
> >>> news
> >>>>> bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who is
> >>>>> justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think I'd
> >>> rather
> >>>>> be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife
would
> >>> rather
> >>>>> die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> > news:44e3ae02@linux...
> >>>>>> One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive
> >>> dialog
> >>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
the
> >>>>>> nature of reality.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Great post, Sarah.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> -Jamie
> >>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sarah wrote:
> >>>>>>> (heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I
> >>> learned
> >>>>>>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel
> >>> compelled
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently
> >>> wrong
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still
trying
> >>> to
> >>>>> view
> >>>>>>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to
call
> >>>>> "me."
> >>>>>>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant.
> > Faith
> >>> is
> >>>>>>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not
> >>>
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70093 is a reply to message #70092] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 09:27 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
rest
> >>>>> on
> >>>>>>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own
> > definition
> >>>>> if
> >>>>>>> you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to
me.
> >>> If
> >>>>> you
> >>>>>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I
believe
> > in
> >>>>>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
> >>>>>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
> >>> personally
> >>>>> do
> >>>>>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I
see
> >>> no
> >>>>>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
> >>> claims.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel
> > truly
> >>>>>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe
> > this
> >>>>>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very
> > superficial
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think
> > it's
> >>>>> silly
> >>>>>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in
> > the
> >>>>> sky."
> >>>>>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the
> > opposite,
> >>> my
> >>>>>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient
> >>> dogma
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>> I have no reason to believe.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer
> > words:
> >>> I
> >>>>>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG
> > time
> >>>>> ago),
> >>>>>>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to
> > believe
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and a
> >>>>> smattering
> >>>>>>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because
it
> >>>>> claims
> >>>>>>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient
> > human
> >>>>> beings
> >>>>>>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible
is
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme
> > being.
> >>>>>>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you
believe
> > in
> >>> a
> >>>>> way
> >>>>>>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know
WHAT
> >>> you
> >>>>>>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some
years.
> >>>>> What I
> >>>>>>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope?
> > Because
> >>>>> you
> >>>>>>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your
> >>> parents
> >>>>>>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because you
> >>>>> happened
> >>>>>>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been
born
> >>> in
> >>>>>>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
> >>>>>>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does
this
> >>>>> make
> >>>>>>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough
of
> > a
> >>>>> threat
> >>>>>>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill
> > him?
> >>>>>>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to
share
> >>> with
> >>>>>>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no
right
> > or
> >>>>>>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in
God,
> >>>>> Heaven,
> >>>>>>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to
behave
> >>>>>>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based
effectually
> >>> on
> >>>>>>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis
> > is
> >>>>>>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
> >>> restrained
> >>>>> by
> >>>>>>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert
> > Einstein
> >>>>>>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because
the
> >>>>> evil of
> >>>>>>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about
> >>> what
> >>>>> has
> >>>>>>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
> >>> believe
> >>>>>>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about
> > the
> >>>>>>> potential consequences of this.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another
hour
> >>>>> that I
> >>>>>>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by
> > now
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer
clings
> >>> to
> >>>>>>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again,
> >>>>> beliefs
> >>>>>>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs
are
> >>> not
> >>>>>>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sarah
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message
> > news:44e23a46$1@linux...
> >>>>>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by
> >>> faith.
> >>>>>>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
> >>>>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call
> > God
> >>>>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
> >>>>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views
> > are
> >>>>>>>> human at the source.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
> >>>>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
> >>>>>>>> changes the whole wo
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70097 is a reply to message #70076] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 10:42 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
A's forever. Gotta win the lotto first.
Anyway, I haven't had my ears on them, but I've heard nothing but good stuff
about the ADAM monitors.
Tony
"Pete Ruthenburg" <ruthenburg@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:44e1e169$1@linux...
>
> When I was at Michael Wagener's place in Nashville we were
> working on these and they seemed pretty cool.Down at the new
> studio we mainly use NS-10s so I've been trying to get used to
> those.Always had those Adams in the back of my mind.
> Anybody around here have experience with these and watta ya
> think?Yeah I know,they ain't cheap.
>
> TIA,
> PeteThere are untold of examples of man's inhumanity to man via religious
persecution. The enforcement of empire and power has long been tied to
religion.
The Egyptians ruled for thousands of years based on a claim to deity,
and they were brutal to Christian slaves!
The KKK thought they were protecting Christianity by hanging black people!
China persecutes members of Falun Gong!
We could come up with examples all day.
Are you trying to say that all religious persecution should be stopped
or are you trying to say Islamic religious persecution should be stopped?
Did you somehow think I was advocating putting people to death for their
beliefs? I'm having a hard time figuring out your point, exactly. What
are you getting at?
One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive dialog
between people who operate from very different assumptions about the
nature of reality. That's my point in this thread. Are we living it
here? :^)
I don't think our assumptions about the nature of reality are that far
apart but we seem to have a difference in our view of religion and
public policy. Specifically (correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be
very afraid of Muslims, any Muslims, wherever you find them. Whereas it
looks to me that yet another group is being scapegoated, all members
tarred because of the actions of a few, possibly to detract from real
failures in our own foreign policy.
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
DJ wrote:
> Are Christians doing this to former Christians who decide to convert to
> Islam?
>
> http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=82 16
>
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e490b1@linux...
>> I am not a fan of dictatorships, theocracies or royalty. So you don't
>> have to waste any time convincing me on that point. But I'll check out
>> your link.
>>
>> I am also not a fan of scapegoating and generalizing to justify war.
>>
>> I am a fan of freedom, including freedom of religion. Aggressive
>> self-righteousness by any group is problematic. Too bad it works so well
>> for empire building. It's certainly something to be aware of in other
>> countries and especially in our own.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>>> Hi Jamie,
>>>
>>> Here's some food for though vis-a-vis the Islamic fundamentalist
> situation
>>> (as if thgere wasn't enough already).
>>>
>>> http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/wfchannel/index.php?pagenum =1
>>>
>>> The links relative to women and human rights are pretty grotesque. Yeah,
> I
>>> realize that there is the Guantanamo thing to counter with (though I
> don't
>>> buy it personally) and the "well, look at our inhumane laws regarding
> drug
>>> offenses and racism" argument ("some" of which I definitely do buy) but
> man,
>>> the Islamic Utopia is in a whole 'nuther league.
>>>
>>> "Sure m'am, we've got chardours. What shade of black would you prefer?
>>> Here's something nice to match the color of the revolutionary jackboot."
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Deej
>>>
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e40472@linux...
>>>> It's all retaliatory. That's the beauty of the Hatfield/McCoy vicious
>>> cycle.
>>>> We retaliated against Iraq for 9/11, even though Iraq was not involved
>>>> in the attack.
>>>>
>>>> No problem, we created a new policy of preemptive retaliation!
>>>> Preemptive retaliation, think about that oxymoron. Very creative. Lots
>>>> of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
>>>>
>>>> I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of
> what
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70099 is a reply to message #70097] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 12:02 |
no
Messages: 40
Registered: January 2008
|
Member |
|
|
ists, Muslims and
>>> American
>>>>> Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims
> whether
>>> they
>>>>> would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of
>>> other
>>>>> religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds before
>>> the
>>>>> Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and he
>>> never
>>>>> gave a straight answer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
> news:44e3f062@linux...
>>>>>> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
>>>>>> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing
> for
>>>>>> disagreement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the
> nightly
>>>>>> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to Durango
>>> to
>>>>>> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors
> concluded
>>>>>> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on 'em!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do
> about
>>>>> them?
>>>>>> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people
> with
>>>>>> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used
> and
>>>>>> manipulated in the process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet. They're
>>>>>> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
> the
>>>>>>>> nature of reality.
>>>>>>> I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the
>>> nightly
>>>>> news
>>>>>>> bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who is
>>>>>>> justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think I'd
>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife
> would
>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>> news:44e3ae02@linux...
>>>>>>>> One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive
>>>>> dialog
>>>>>>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
> the
>>>>>>>> nature of reality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Great post, Sarah.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>>>>>> (heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I
>>>>> learned
>>>>>>>>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel
>>>>> compelled
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently
>>>>> wrong
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still
> trying
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> view
>>>>>>>>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to
> call
>>>>>>> "me."
>>>>>>>>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant.
>>> Faith
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not
>>>>> rest
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own
>>> definition
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to
> me.
>>>>> If
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I
> believe
>>> in
>>>>>>>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
>>>>>>>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
>>>>> personally
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I
> see
>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
>>>>> claims.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel
>>> truly
>>>>>>>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe
>>> this
>>>>>>>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very
>>> superficial
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think
>>> it's
>>>>>>> silly
>>>>>>>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in
>>> the
>>>>>>> sky."
>>>>>>>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the
>>> opposite,
>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient
>>>>> dogma
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> I have no reason to believe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer
>>> words:
>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG
>>> time
>>>>>>> ago),
>>>>>>>>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to
>>> believe
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and a
>>>>>>> smattering
>>>>>>>>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because
> it
>>>>>>> claims
>>>>>>>>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient
>>> human
>>>>>>> beings
>>>>>>>>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible
> is
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme
>>> being.
>>>>>>>>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you
> believe
>>> in
>>>>> a
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know
> WHAT
>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some
> years.
>>>>>>> What I
>>>>>>>>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope?
>>> Because
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your
>>>>> parents
>>>>>>>>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because you
>>>>>>> happened
>>>>>>>>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been
> born
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
>>>>>>>>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does
> this
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough
> of
>>> a
>>>>>>> threat
>>>>>>>>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill
>>> him?
>>>>>>>>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to
> share
>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no
> right
>>> or
>>>>>>>>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in
> God,
>>>>>>> Heaven,
>>>>>>>>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to
> behave
>>>>>>>>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based
> effectually
>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis
>>> is
>>>>>>>>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
>>>>> restrained
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert
>>> Einstein
>>>>>>>>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because
> the
>>>>>>> evil of
>>>>>>>>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about
>>>>> what
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about
>>> the
>>>>>>>>> potential consequences of this.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another
> hour
>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>>>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by
>>> now
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer
> clings
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again,
>>>>>>> beliefs
>>>>>>>>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs
> are
>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message
>>> news:44e23a46$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by
>>>>> faith.
>>>>>>>>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
>>>>>>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call
>>> God
>>>>>>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
>>>>>>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views
>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> human at the source.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
>>>>>>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
>>>>>>>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and
>>> then
>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
>>>>> competition.
>>>>>>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
>>>>>>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
>>>>>>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
>>>>>>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical
> and
>>>>>>>>>>> effective
>>>>>>>>>>> way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
>>>>>>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
>>>>>>>>>> rules".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
>>>>>>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm
>>> fine
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be
> fun
>>> to
>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be
> honest
>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even
>>> then.
>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me.
>>>>> It's
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
>>>>> backward
>>>>>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>>>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been
>>>>> inspired
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> supreme being.
>>>>>>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
>>>>>>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
>>>>>>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
>>>>>>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
>>>>>>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
>>>>>>>>>> themselves...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
>>>>>>>>>> assumptions about existence.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead
>>> Iraqis
>>>>>>>>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile.
>>> What
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of
>>>>> brown
>>>>>>>>>>> rice?
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists?
>>>>> 100?
>>>>>>>>>> 500?
>>>>>>>>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were
> innocent
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> families.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded
> or
>>>>>>> maimed.
>>>>>>>>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can
>>> think
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't,
> but
>>>>> it's
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
>>>>> jumpsuits
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
>>>>>>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in
> all
>>>>>>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
>>>>>>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules,
> you
>>>>>>>>>> would have to.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring
>>> themselves
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
>>>>>>>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
>>>>>>>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
>>>>>>>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
>>>>>>>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
>>>>>>>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms,
> to
>>>>> kill
>>>>>>>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
>>>>>>>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
>>>>>>>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>
>I think there might be some civilians in Gaza who would be interested in the
answer to the other side of that question.
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
>them?
>>
>Interesting that you should ask. there was recently a forum held at a local
>church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and American
>Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims whether
they
>would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of other
>religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds before the
>Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and he never
>gave a straight answer.
>
>
>"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e3f062@linux...
>>
>> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
>> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing for
>> disagreement.
>>
>> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the nightly
>> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
>>
>> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to Durango
to
>> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors concluded
>> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on 'em!
>>
>> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
>them?
>>
>> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people with
>> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used and
>> manipulated in the process.
>>
>> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
>>
>> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet. They're
>> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>> >> between people who operate from very different assumptions about the
>> >> nature of reality.
>> >
>> > I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the nightly
>news
>> > bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who is
>> > justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think I'd
>rather
>> > be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife would
>rather
>> > die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e3ae02@linux...
>> >> One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive
>dialog
>> >> between people who operate from very different assumptions about the
>> >> nature of reality.
>> >>
>> >> Great post, Sarah.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> -Jamie
>> >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sarah wrote:
>> >>> (heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I
>learned
>> >>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel
>compelled
>> > to
>> >>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently
>wrong
>> > in
>> >>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still trying
>to
>> > view
>> >>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to call
>> > "me."
>> >>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant. Faith
>is
>> >>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not
>rest
>> > on
>> >>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own definition
>> > if
>> >>> you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to me.
>If
>> > you
>> >>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I believe
in
>> >>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
>> >>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
>> >>>
>> >>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
>personally
>> > do
>> >>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I see
>no
>> >>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
>claims.
>> > I
>> >>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel truly
>> >>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe
this
>> >>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very superficial
>> > and
>> >>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think
it's
>> > silly
>> >>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in
the
>> > sky."
>> >>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the opposite,
>my
>> >>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient
>dogma
>> > that
>> >>> I have no reason to believe.
>> >>>
>> >>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer words:
>I
>> >>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG
time
>> > ago),
>> >>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to believe
>> > that
>> >>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and a
>> > smattering
>> >>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because it
>> > claims
>> >>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient human
>> > beings
>> >>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible
is
>the
>> >>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme being.
>> >>>
>> >>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you believe
in
>a
>> > way
>> >>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know WHAT
>you
>> >>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some years.
>> > What I
>> >>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope? Because
>> > you
>> >>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your
>parents
>> >>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because you
>> > happened
>> >>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been born
>in
>> >>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
>> >>>
>> >>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
>> >>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does this
>> > make
>> >>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough of
a
>> > threat
>> >>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill him?
>> >>>
>> >>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to share
>with
>> >>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no right
or
>> >>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in God,
>> > Heaven,
>> >>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to behave
>> >>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually
>on
>> >>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis
is
>> >>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
>restrained
>> > by
>> >>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein
>> >>>
>> >>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because the
>> > evil of
>> >>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about
>what
>> > has
>> >>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
>believe
>> >>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about
the
>> >>> potential consequences of this.
>> >>>
>> >>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another hour
>> > that I
>> >>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by
now
>> > that
>> >>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer clings
>to
>> >>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again,
>> > beliefs
>> >>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs are
>not
>> >>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
>> >>>
>> >>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sarah
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message news:44e23a46$1@linux...
>> >>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by
>faith.
>> >>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
>> >>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call
God
>> >>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
>> >>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views
are
>> >>>> human at the source.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I disagree emphatically.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
>> >>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
>> >>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and
then
>> > left
>> >>>> it
>> >>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
>competition.
>> >>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
>> >>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
>> >>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
>> >>>> they do? All is permitted.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This is not God's plan for us.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> The
>> >>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical and
>> >>>>> effective
>> >>>>> way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
>> >>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
>> >>>> rules".
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
>> >>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm
fine
>> > with
>> >>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be fun
to
>> > say
>> >>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be honest
>> > here
>> >>>> --
>> >>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even then.
>> > And
>> >>>> I'm
>> >>>>> sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me.
>It's
>> > just
>> >>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
>backward
>> >>>>> human
>> >>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been
>inspired
>> > by
>> >>>> a
>> >>>>> supreme being.
>> >>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
>> >>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
>> >>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
>> >>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
>> >>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
>> >>>> themselves...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
>> >>>> assumptions about existence.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead Iraqis
>> >>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile.
What
>> > do
>> >>>> you
>> >>>>> think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of
>brown
>> >>>>> rice?
>> >>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists?
>100?
>> >>>> 500?
>> >>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were innocent
>and
>> >>>>> their
>> >>>>> families.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded or
>> > maimed.
>> >>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can think
>> > of
>> >>>> some
>> >>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't, but
>it's
>> > a
>> >>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
>jumpsuits
>> > and
>> >>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Sarah
>> >>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
>> >>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in all
>> >>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
>> >>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules, you
>> >>>> would have to.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring themselves
>to
>> > do
>> >>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
>> >>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
>> >>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
>> >>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
>> >>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
>> >>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms, to
>kill
>> >>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
>> >>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
>> >>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> DC
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >
>> >
>
>Thanks for sending this example guitar with the "fan frets" for horizontal
compensation... "perfect " vertical compensation is mathematically
impossible without adding the horizontal factor....This is the "next phase"
in "equal temperament". Also the actual string makes a huge difference in
pitch accuracy.. (that's why premium piano strings are individually hand
wound) Some of the people who posted,do not understand the difference in
the science of temperament,and scale design...The only thing this "Nova"
doesn't have is separate adjustments for each string at the nut...Les Pauls
and Strats are based on a standard fret spacing calculation,that is subject
to manufacturing flaws..Also,knowing that pitch is totally subjective,what
sounds "better" to one persons ear,may not sound better to another's. That's
where tuning devices can be helpful to measure. I use a device called a
"Reyburn Cybertuner" that is accurate to .001 of a cent..(most battery
devices are + or - 1 whole cent ! ...and most musicians cannot even hear
that difference.....)
"D-unit" <c0f@intrex.net> wrote in message news:44e48e66@linux...
>
> "DC" <dc@spammersinchulavista.org> wrote in message
> <SNIP>
>
>
> http://www.novaxguitars.com/
>
>
> DB
>
>
>I have known Ralph Novax for years. Nice guy, great guitars.
It has nothing to do with compensated nuts. A Novax guitar can
still have the exact same problem if the nut is not setup to match
the needs of the strings the player uses and their particular instrument.
DC
"D-unit" <c0f@intrex.net> wrote:
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinchulavista.org> wrote in message
><SNIP>
>
>
>http://www.novaxguitars.com/
>
>
>DB
>
>
>For most of its life Islam was a comparatively tolerant religion. In the
Persian muslim and Ottoman empires local populations were not forced to convert
and could practice whatever religion they wished. Often they we subject to
additional taxes or travel restrictions or restrictive property rights, but
they certainly weren't killed. Most converted.
But the comparison of Islam to Christianity on the conquest front is grossly
unfair. Had Mohammed NOT been an effective soldier and military leader we
would not no know of him. He was born at a time when no religion had a chance
if it couldn't defend and, yes, conquer. Jesus (the historical one I recognize,
not the divine one you believe in) was born into occupied Palestine and had
he had a shred of militant resistance about him his movement would have been
subjected to the violence of the sword the Romans so casually used on non-Romans.
It was precisely because early Christians had no political/military ambitions
that they were allowed to work their way into Roman society. Had they expressed
any ambitions beyond personal salvation they'd have been squashed like bugs.
All of which is to say that there are historical reasons why one religion
might tend toward militaristism than the other.
And then the question becomes, is western 'secular militarism' better than
middle eastern 'religious militarism?' Think of that from the perspective
of a) a middle class American christian, b) a Guatemalan union organizer,
c) and Egyptian medical doctor, d) a Turkish guest worker living in Frankfurt,
and e) a Thai buddhist motorcycle messenger.
TCB
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>Jamie,
>
>Can you name even one instance wherein a population becaume Muslim by any
>means other than military conquest?
>
>Deej
>
>"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e40472@linux...
>>
>> It's all retaliatory. That's the beauty of the Hatfield/McCoy vicious
>cycle.
>>
>> We retaliated against Iraq for 9/11, even though Iraq was not involved
>> in the attack.
>>
>> No problem, we created a new policy of preemptive retaliation!
>> Preemptive retaliation, think about that oxymoron. Very creative. Lots
>> of pins dropped when we came up with that one.
>>
>> I dunno Deej. I think your forum was a good step. I suppose some of what
>> you observed there illustrates the challenge we're talking about.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>> >> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
>> > them?
>> > Interesting that you should ask. there was recently a forum held at
a
>local
>> > church here. there were Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and
>American
>> > Indians. Things were going nicely until a Jew asked the Muslims whether
>they
>> > would renounce the use of non-retaliatory violence against those of
>other
>> > religions. You could have heard a pin drop for about 10 seconds before
>the
>> > Muslim gentleman started scooting around like a crawdad........and he
>never
>> > gave a straight answer.
>> >
>> >
>> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:44e3f062@linux...
>> >> Reality is measurable. The nature of reality is often debated. The
>> >> challenge is to accept and respect each other while still allowing
for
>> >> disagreement.
>> >>
>> >> Can't let the other go without comment: The bloodletting on the nightly
>> >> news is just a drop in the bucket, we don't see most of it.
>> >>
>> >> Were the Muslims in Saddam's Iraq just about to march over to Durango
>to
>> >> convert your wife? Maybe with all of those WMD the inspectors concluded
>> >> weren't there? Wouldn't work anyway, she'd sic your big dogs on 'em!
>> >>
>> >> What about the Muslims already in Durango, what are you gonna do about
>> > them?
>> >> Maybe the problem isn't Muslims. Maybe the problem is that people with
>> >> little opportunity turn to fanatics for help and hope, and are used
and
>> >> manipulated in the process.
>> >>
>> >> I don't know why we turn to fanatics here. Fear?
>> >>
>> >> Muslims, the new, improved "commies." They're in your closet. They're
>> >> after your wife. Vote for me and I'll $$olve the problem!
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> -Jamie
>> >> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> DJ wrote:
>> >>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
the
>> >>>> nature of reality.
>> >>> I think reality is pretty cut and dried and is evidenced by the
>nightly
>> > news
>> >>> bloodletting. I think the differences are defined in terms of who
is
>> >>> justified in killing whom and for what reason. Thing is, I think I'd
>> > rather
>> >>> be dead than be forced to be a mulsim.......and I know my wife would
>> > rather
>> >>> die........and she's mean enough to take quite a few with her.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>news:44e3ae02@linux...
>> >>>> One of the biggest challenges we face is how to have constructive
>> > dialog
>> >>>> between people who operate from very different assumptions about
the
>> >>>> nature of reality.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Great post, Sarah.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> -Jamie
>> >>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sarah wrote:
>> >>>>> (heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I
>> > learned
>> >>>>> years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel
>> > compelled
>> >>> to
>> >>>>> make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently
>> > wrong
>> >>> in
>> >>>>> your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still trying
>> > to
>> >>> view
>> >>>>> me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to call
>> >>> "me."
>> >>>>> First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant.
>Faith
>> > is
>> >>>>> essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not
>> > rest
>> >>> on
>> >>>>> logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own
>definition
>> >>> if
>> >>>>> you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to
me.
>> > If
>> >>> you
>> >>>>> have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I believe
>in
>> >>>>> gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
>> >>>>> demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I
>> > personally
>> >>> do
>> >>>>> not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I
see
>> > no
>> >>>>> evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent
>> > claims.
>> >>> I
>> >>>>> do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel
>truly
>> >>>>> connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe
>this
>> >>>>> "supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very
>superficial
>> >>> and
>> >>>>> frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think
>it's
>> >>> silly
>> >>>>> to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy
in
>the
>> >>> sky."
>> >>>>> I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the
>opposite,
>> > my
>> >>>>> mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient
>> > dogma
>> >>> that
>> >>>>> I have no reason to believe.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer
>words:
>> > I
>> >>>>> have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG
>time
>> >>> ago),
>> >>>>> and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to
>believe
>> >>> that
>> >>>>> the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and
a
>> >>> smattering
>> >>>>> of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because
it
>> >>> claims
>> >>>>> to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient
>human
>> >>> beings
>> >>>>> whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible
is
>> > the
>> >>>>> word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme
>being.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you believe
>in
>> > a
>> >>> way
>> >>>>> that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know WHAT
>> > you
>> >>>>> believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some years.
>> >>> What I
>> >>>>> don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope?
>Because
>> >>> you
>> >>>>> were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your
>> > parents
>> >>>>> believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because you
>> >>> happened
>> >>>>> to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been
born
>> > in
>> >>>>> India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
>> >>>>> omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does
this
>> >>> make
>> >>>>> any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough
of
>a
>> >>> threat
>> >>>>> to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill
>him?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to share
>> > with
>> >>>>> other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no right
>or
>> >>>>> wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in
God,
>> >>> Heaven,
>> >>>>> or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to behave
>> >>>>> accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually
>> > on
>> >>>>> sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis
>is
>> >>>>> necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
>> > restrained
>> >>> by
>> >>>>> fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert
>Einstein
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because
the
>> >>> evil of
>> >>>>> "ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about
>> > what
>> >>> has
>> >>>>> been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I
>> > believe
>> >>>>> that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about
>the
>> >>>>> potential consequences of this.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another
hour
>> >>> that I
>> >>>>> could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned
by
>now
>> >>> that
>> >>>>> the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer clings
>> > to
>> >>>>> them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again,
>> >>> beliefs
>> >>>>> are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs
are
>> > not
>> >>>>> wrong simply because they contradict yours.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Sarah
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message
>news:44e23a46$1@linux...
>> >>>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by
>> > faith.
>> >>>>>>> (Speaking from personal experience).
>> >>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call
>God
>> >>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source
is
>> >>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views
>are
>> >>>>>> human at the source.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
>> >>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
>> >>>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and
>then
>> >>> left
>> >>>>>> it
>> >>>>>>> up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than
>> > competition.
>> >>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
>> >>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
>> >>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care
if
>> >>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The
>> >>>>>>> "Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical
and
>> >>>>>>> effective
>> >>>>>>> way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
>> >>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
>> >>>>>> rules".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
>> >>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm
>fine
>> >>> with
>> >>>>>>> the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be
fun
>to
>> >>> say
>> >>>>>>> "what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be honest
>> >>> here
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>> none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even
>then.
>> >>> And
>> >>>>>> I'm
>> >>>>>>> sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me.
>> > It's
>> >>> just
>> >>>>>>> stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly
>> > backward
>> >>>>>>> human
>> >>>>>>> societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been
>> > inspired
>> >>> by
>> >>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>> supreme being.
>> >>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
>> >>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
>> >>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded
in
>> >>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
>> >>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
>> >>>>>> themselves...
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
>> >>>>>> assumptions about existence.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead
>Iraqis
>> >>>>>>> (conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile.
>What
>> >>> do
>> >>>>>> you
>> >>>>>>> think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl
of
>> > brown
>> >>>>>>> rice?
>> >>>>>>> I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists?
>> > 100?
>> >>>>>> 500?
>> >>>>>>> 1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were innocent
>> > and
>> >>>>>>> their
>> >>>>>>> families.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded
or
>> >>> maimed.
>> >>>>>>> If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can
>think
>> >>> of
>> >>>>>> some
>> >>>>>>> heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't,
but
>> > it's
>> >>> a
>> >>>>>>> nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange
>> > jumpsuits
>> >>> and
>> >>>>>>> chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sarah
>> >>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
>> >>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in
all
>> >>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
>> >>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules,
you
>> >>>>>> would have to.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring
>themselves
>> > to
>> >>> do
>> >>>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
>> >>>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
>> >>>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
>> >>>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
>> >>>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
>> >>>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms,
to
>> > kill
>> >>>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
>> >>>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
>> >>>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> DC
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>
>> >
>> >
>
>Well, thank you very much, mate. :) We do the best we can. I'm enjoying
yours, too. Tell ten friends to buy our CD, then they'll tell ten friends,
then they'll tell ten friends . . . .
Hugs,
Sarah
"macle" <Mates9999@cs.com> wrote in message news:44e3cc28$1@linux...
>
> Oh my gawd, lucifer!
> either way, it's so absurd,
> look around it's
> such a blur you see!!
>
> Why is live and let live so hard? I dunno. Seems so easy.
>
> I've taken to burying my head in the sand. Ignorance is bliss
> sort of nearly almost. It'll all work out in the end (except
> for those of us burning in hell for eternity...OUCH!)
>
> Sarah, I listened to the clips on your site...very very
> nice Paris sound. Thumbs up!
>
> Peace brothers and sisters!!
>okay, i'll put it in the top two as i'm sure many killings go un
publicized if it doesn't involve population segments not currently
popular on the "oh that's really a shame" or "hey, dems my peeps"
index.
On 17 Aug 2006 23:05:22 +1000, "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Here's the thing, you'll cause just as much trouble saying it's #5 or #10
>as #1. And I suspected you thought as much which is why I asked. Maybe not.
>Influenza takes a few hundred thousand per year in the off years, so maybe
>over the long haul it's first, just by the yearly grind. But even then I
>doubt it.
>
>But in any case, just tell the truth as you see it, regardless of the trouble
>it might cause. We need more of that.
>
>TCB
>
>rick <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>i didn't want to cause trouble by calling it #1
>>
>>On 17 Aug 2006 06:17:12 +1000, "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I'd be interested to hear the nine candidates you would propose ahead of
>it.
>>>
>>>
>>>TCB
>>>
>>>rick <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>sarah
>>>>
>>>>everyone wants to be the holder of "the truth" and feel compelled to
>>>>convince others even if they have to kill them to do it. thankfully
>>>>not all go to that extreme...unfortunately many are willing to do just
>>>>that...on both sides of the argument. religion has to be in the top
>>>>ten killers of humanity throughout history.
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:00:26 -0700, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>(heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I learned
>>>
>>>>>years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel compelled
>>>to
>>>>>make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently wrong
>>>in
>>>>>your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still trying
>to
>>>view
>>>>>me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to call "me."
>>>>>
>>>>>First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant. Faith
>is
>>>
>>>>>essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not rest
>>>on
>>>>>logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own definition
>>>if
>>>>>you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to me.
>If
>>>you
>>>>>have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I believe in
>>>
>>>>>gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
>>>>>demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
>>>>>
>>>>>Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I personally
>>>do
>>>>>not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I see
>no
>>>
>>>>>evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent claims.
>>> I
>>>>>do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel truly
>
>>>>>connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe this
>>>
>>>>>"supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very superficial
>>>and
>>>>>frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think it's
>>>silly
>>>>>to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in the
>>>sky."
>>>>>I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the opposite,
>my
>>>
>>>>>mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient dogma
>>>that
>>>>>I have no reason to believe.
>>>>>
>>>>>Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer words:
>
>>>I
>>>>>have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG time
>>>ago),
>>>>>and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to believe
>that
>>>
>>>>>the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and a smattering
>>>
>>>>>of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because it claims
>>>
>>>>>to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient human
>beings
>>>
>>>>>whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible is
>the
>>>
>>>>>word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme being.
>>>>>
>>>>>Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you believe in
>>>a way
>>>>>that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know WHAT you
>>>
>>>>>believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some years.
> What
>>>I
>>>>>don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope? Because
>>>you
>>>>>were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your parents
>>>
>>>>>believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because you happened
>>>
>>>>>to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been born
>in
>>>
>>>>>India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
>>>>>
>>>>>Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
>>>>>omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does this
>make
>>>
>>>>>any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough of a
>threat
>>>
>>>>>to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill him?
>>>>>
>>>>>You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to share with
>>>
>>>>>other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no right or
>>>
>>>>>wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in God,
>Heaven,
>>>
>>>>>or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to behave
>
>>>>>accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually
>on
>>>
>>>>>sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is
>
>>>>>necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained
>>>by
>>>>>fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein
>>>>>
>>>>>And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because the
>evil
>>>of
>>>>>"ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about what
>>>has
>>>>>been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I believe
>>>
>>>>>that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about the
>>>
>>>>>potential consequences of this.
>>>>>
>>>>>But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another hour
>that
>>>I
>>>>>could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by now
>>>that
>>>>>the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer clings
>to
>>>
>>>>>them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again, beliefs
>>>
>>>>>are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs are
>not
>>>
>>>>>wrong simply because they contradict yours.
>>>>>
>>>>>OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sarah
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message news:44e23a46$1@linux...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by faith.
>>>>>>>(Speaking from personal experience).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call God
>>>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
>>>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views are
>>>>>> human at the source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I disagree emphatically.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
>>>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
>>>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and then
>>>left
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than competition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
>>>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
>>>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
>>>>>> they do? All is permitted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The
>>>>>>>"Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical and
>
>>>>>>>effective
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
>>>>>> rules".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
>>>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm fine
>>>with
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be fun to
>>>say
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be honest
>here
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even then.
>
>>>And
>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me. It's
>>>just
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly backward
>>>
>>>>>>>human
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been inspired
>>>by
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>supreme being.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
>>>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
>>>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
>>>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
>>>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
>>>>>> themselves...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
>>>>>> assumptions about existence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead Iraqis
>>>>>>>(conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile. What
>>>do
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of brown
>>>
>>>>>>>rice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists? 100?
>>>>>> 500?
>>>>>>>1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were innocent and
>>>
>>>>>>>their
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>families.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded or maimed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can think
>>>of
>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't, but it's
>>>a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange jumpsuits
>>>and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sarah
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
>>>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in all
>>>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
>>>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules, you
>>>>>> would have to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring themselves
>>>to do
>>>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
>>>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
>>>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
>>>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
>>>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
>>>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms, to
>kill
>>>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
>>>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
>>>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>i never know the right thing to say to help a brother get "laid" and
not laugh or say "me first".
On 17 Aug 2006 16:59:59 +1000, "Justin Rice"
<analogfilter@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>
>It's all a noble cause, just go to the for sale section.
>
>I get a bit punchy at night...I am about to be ready to master my new solo CD. I have used Crystal Clear
Sound in Dallas in the past but I was wanting to see if any of you had other
preferences. I want to attend the mastering session and I would prefer someone
who has done a lot of work on acoustic projects. I don't want an ear bleeding
over compressed ready for FM radio piece of crap (I could do that myself).
I want the dynamics to remain. Thanks for your suggestions.
Randy Brown
Mineola, TxThese guys
http://www.tripath.com/
Have developed a new amp circuit called Class T. It allows for
extreme efficiency (95% in some cases) and potential for reducing
distortions significantly.
Oh, and there is a class T amp out now, with 15 watts a side, that
people like the sound of, that costs 30.00 (USD)... !
http://www.si-technologies.com/frontEnd/cm_productDetail.jsp ?productID=18
Tape Op reviewed it recently and while they didn't throw their
other amps in the trash, they did like it. Now, a 30 buck amp that
sounds good is cool enough, but what is really cool is a 300.00
amp that kills 2K amps and puts out 1000 watts. This is where
the Class T technology seems to be leading.
Yes, this will show up in our industry.
Anybody seen/heard any Class T stuff?
DCOn 8/17/06 10:19 AM, in article 44e495a1@linux, "Jamie K"
<Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>
> We're a lot closer to becoming a Christian theocracy at the moment.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
Actually most Christians, including many Christian leaders and ministers
I've talked to agree with me that we are closer to outlawing Christianity
than accepting it as a nation, much less adopting it. Separation of church
and state is actually quite a well-respected concept for most of the
Christian community. However, it isn't really fair to expect Christians to
just sit out of politics and voting completely to ease the fears of the
non-Christian community. For a non-Christian, any hint of Christianity may
seem like too much, or even a threat, but to a longtime Christian, the
deterioration of acceptance for our faith is sadly quite apparent, even on
this forum.
Let's be brutally honest here, how many people on this forum really don't
mind a Christian sharing their views with conviction, and how many
truthfully have a problem with it? I'm sure it is tolerable (at best) as
long as it doesn't challenge or confront others' views (which by very
nature, it will, otherwise it wouldn't be faith with any life-impacting
substance). On the other hand, most religious threads here have rather
strong opinions on the non-Christian side - often even claiming that
Christianity is more violent than Islam, or that Christianity somehow is
responsible for our country going to Iraq (incredibly far from the truth).
Isn't that just one step away from Mel Gibson's drunken debacle of
slandering Jews? I'm sure that may not be the intention, but consider the
arguments here for equal rights and peace vs. the way Christianity is
discussed. If we are truly tolerant of one another, we wouldn't need to
ascribe violence and/or all of our country's, or the world's problems to the
faith of someone we might chat with casually in other circumstances. I'm
not asking this from a "victim" mentality in any form or fashion (far from
it). I'm just raising the question out of genuine curiosity and broadening
the perspectives here.
For one societal example, in New Orleans the ACLU is protesting (and
probably filed suit) against people in one community for wanting to build a
memorial to victims of Katrina - one that includes a cross. The land is
private as is the funding, but as it is in public view, the ACLU is taking
issue. If we exercise equality of "rights" would that not give me the right
as a Christian to file suit against an adult nightclub for a billboard
promoting topless dancing, with suggestive photos? No, that would violate
the owner's right to free speech, and others' opinion of what is
"suggestive" and whether that could "suggest" anything objectionable for
anyone. What is the difference? A cross isn't going to tempt anyone to get
drunk, spend money that should be going to support a family, or worst case,
rape a woman (really worst case, not a statistical norm that I know of, at
least hope not) - it is actually more likely to cause the exact opposite,
but yet it is becoming a more common source of public outcry than crime
rates or corporate corruption.
My prediction is that Christian churches will start being targeted by the
ACLU and other "rights" groups not wanting structures of any kind that
promote Christianity in public view. And it wouldn't be much of a leap from
there to having something as simple as praying over one's meal in public
become grounds for dismissal from a restaurant, if not legal or criminal
action. Sure, that's extrapolation, but that may give you a bit of insight
into why there seems to be more of a push by Christians to get Christians
involved in political issues - not to take over or dictate, but to protect
the freedom we are also supposed to be allowed. There are other examples of
how this trend is progressing, but I have to get back to work. ;-)
The thing is, most Christians believe it is coming. The question is, who
wants to be on the side that one day tells me personally that I and my
family will no longer be welcome here? Just something to think about. I
really don't mind opposing opinions in the least and enjoy well-tempered
discussions. My faith is far greater than any government, threat of being
ostracized, or even death, so a little discussion is hardly a .
I hope anyone reading this (however few ;-) will take it in the spirit it is
intended - just something to consider.
Regards,
Dedric
>
>
>I beg to differ with you, it is part of the same quest as trying to change
the individual string lengths,at the termination ends...How to get a fretted
instrument to maintain the same mathematical ratio,as it goes up the
fretboard..also how to get the octave harmonic at the 12th fret to be
exact....Novax has solved another side of the same problem.It is a different
sound to play the fanned frets....It takes some getting used to...He could
put a "compensated" nut on those guitars....He must have tried it,and found
it didn't really help . As long as you get the 12th fret at the exact 1/2
way point of the scale,you're in good shape...as long as the fret distances
are measured and cut correctly.And you are correct that the quality of the
string, and string gauges matter quite a bit...lot's and lot's of
variables...there are many more.
"DC" <dc@spammersinnigeria.org> wrote in message news:44e4aeb1$1@linux...
>
> I have known Ralph Novax for years. Nice guy, great guitars.
>
> It has nothing to do with compensated nuts. A Novax guitar can
> still have the exact same problem if the nut is not setup to match
> the needs of the strings the player uses and their particular instrument.
>
> DC
>
> "D-unit" <c0f@intrex.net> wrote:
> >
> >"DC" <dc@spammersinchulavista.org> wrote in message
> ><SNIP>
> >
> >
> >http://www.novaxguitars.com/
> >
> >
> >DB
> >
> >
> >
>Can anyone confirm or deny this information?
Sources please :)
http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.aspGot any design spec pics/info?
AA
"DC" <dc@spammersinbrooklyn.org> wrote in message news:44e4e63c$1@linux...
>
> These guys
>
> http://www.tripath.com/
>
> Have developed a new amp circuit called Class T. It allows for
> extreme efficiency (95% in some cases) and potential for reducing
> distortions significantly.
>
> Oh, and there is a class T amp out now, with 15 watts a side, that
> people like the sound of, that costs 30.00 (USD)... !
>
> http://www.si-technologies.com/frontEnd/cm_productDetail.jsp ?productID=18
>
> Tape Op reviewed it recently and while they didn't throw their
> other amps in the trash, they did like it. Now, a 30 buck amp that
> sounds good is cool enough, but what is really cool is a 300.00
> amp that kills 2K amps and puts out 1000 watts. This is where
> the Class T technology seems to be leading.
>
> Yes, this will show up in our industry.
>
> Anybody seen/heard any Class T stuff?
>
> DC
>Hey Dedric,
If I've said anything that makes you think I am advocating shipping you
and your family out of the country, call me on it and let's talk. I do
not support the making of scapegoats. And we'd miss you around here!
The Bill of Rights protects religious freedom. I am all for that.
The point I've been trying to make in this thread is that getting people
to talk to each other rather than past each other is a major challenge
when people have very different understandings of the nature of reality.
Yet we must succeed at communicating between groups as diverse as
Christians and Muslims, or for a tougher example, AELC Lutherans and
Wisconsin Synod Lutherans. I'm only half joking about that last one...
In the USA some (not all) members of the following groups feel
persecuted because of religious bias in our culture:
1) Christians (way too diverse a group to be under a single label, BTW).
2) Muslims
3) Jews
4) Sikhs
5) Atheists
6) etc.
I don't know if Buddhists bother feeling persecuted.
I do like the ACLU for the most part, because the Bill of Rights is
constantly under attack. Since it's a fundamental part of what makes the
USA a special place it needs to be looked after. So I'll add:
7) The Bill Of Rights
Even though it's not a group, it protects all of us from a variety of
bad stuff. Hey, it's my list and I'm adding it! :^)
How do we balance different outlooks and perceptions around all this? It
ain't easy. Talking is good, though.
I don't see anything that indicates we are about to outlaw Christianity.
You'll have to convince me on that one. The appropriateness of
government sanctioning of the symbol of one religion over another is an
interesting issue but I wouldn't read that as moving toward banning
Christianity. Probably makes great material for rousing sermons, though,
in some churches, while other churches can and do support the separation
of church and state for religious reasons so their sermons would go the
other way. See how hard it is to generalize about Christianity as one
entity?
Our great Bill of Rights protects Christianity and all its sects. It
seems to me that certain subsets of Christian thought are very
influential in our government right now, hence my comment. I'm not
seeing that level of influence from other religions.
We should have a conversation about this, Dedric, next time you're up
this way.
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
Dedric Terry wrote:
> On 8/17/06 10:19 AM, in article 44e495a1@linux, "Jamie K"
> <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>
>> We're a lot closer to becoming a Christian theocracy at the moment.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
> Actually most Christians, including many Christian leaders and ministers
> I've talked to agree with me that we are closer to outlawing Christianity
> than accepting it as a nation, much less adopting it. Separation of church
> and state is actually quite a well-respected concept for most of the
> Christian community. However, it isn't really fair to expect Christians to
> just sit out of politics and voting completely to ease the fears of the
> non-Christian community. For a non-Christian, any hint of Christianity may
> seem like too much, or even a threat, but to a longtime Christian, the
> deterioration of acceptance for our faith is sadly quite apparent, even on
> this forum.
>
> Let's be brutally honest here, how many people on this forum really don't
> mind a Christian sharing their views with conviction, and how many
> truthfully have a problem with it? I'm sure it is tolerable (at best) as
> long as it doesn't challenge or confront others' views (which by very
> nature, it will, otherwise it wouldn't be faith with any life-impacting
> substance). On the other hand, most religious threads here have rather
> strong opinions on the non-Christian side - often even claiming that
> Christianity is more violent than Islam, or that Christianity somehow is
> responsible for our country going to Iraq (incredibly far from the truth).
> Isn't that just one step away from Mel Gibson's drunken debacle of
> slandering Jews? I'm sure that may not be the intention, but consider the
> arguments here for equal rights and peace vs. the way Christianity is
> discussed. If we are truly tolerant of one another, we wouldn't need to
> ascribe violence and/or all of our country's, or the world's problems to the
> faith of someone we might chat with casually in other circumstances. I'm
> not asking this from a "victim" mentality in any form or fashion (far from
> it). I'm just raising the question out of genuine curiosity and broadening
> the perspectives here.
>
> For one societal example, in New Orleans the ACLU is protesting (and
> probably filed suit) against people in one community for wanting to build a
> memorial to victims of Katrina - one that includes a cross. The land is
> private as is the funding, but as it is in public view, the ACLU is taking
> issue. If we exercise equality of "rights" would that not give me the right
> as a Christian to file suit against an adult nightclub for a billboard
> promoting topless dancing, with suggestive photos? No, that would violate
> the owner's right to free speech, and others' opinion of what is
> "suggestive" and whether that could "suggest" anything objectionable for
> anyone. What is the difference? A cross isn't going to tempt anyone to get
> drunk, spend money that should be going to support a family, or worst case,
> rape a woman (really worst case, not a statistical norm that I know of, at
> least hope not) - it is actually more likely to cause the exact opposite,
> but yet it is becoming a more common source of public outcry than crime
> rates or corporate corruption.
>
> My prediction is that Christian churches will start being targeted by the
> ACLU and other "rights" groups not wanting structures of any kind that
> promote Christianity in public view. And it wouldn't be much of a leap from
> there to having something as simple as praying over one's meal in public
> become grounds for dismissal from a restaurant, if not legal or criminal
> action. Sure, that's extrapolation, but that may give you a bit of insight
> into why there seems to be more of a push by Christians to get Christians
> involved in political issues - not to take over or dictate, but to protect
> the freedom we are also supposed to be allowed. There are other examples of
> how this trend is progressing, but I have to get back to work. ;-)
>
> The thing is, most Christians believe it is coming. The question is, who
> wants to be on the side that one day tells me personally that I and my
> family will no longer be welcome here? Just something to think about. I
> really don't mind opposing opinions in the least and enjoy well-tempered
> discussions. My faith is far greater than any government, threat of being
> ostracized, or even death, so a little discussion is hardly a .
>
> I hope anyone reading this (however few ;-) will take it in the spirit it is
> intended - just something to consider.
>
> Regards,
> Dedric
>
>
>>
>>
>Yes, we must spread *the word*!! Our hope is to be bigger than
Jesus, Allah, John Lennon and L.Ron Hubbard put together!!
Rock on Sarah!!
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>Well, thank you very much, mate. :) We do the best we can. I'm enjoying
>yours, too. Tell ten friends to buy our CD, then they'll tell ten friends,
>then they'll tell ten friends . . . .
>
>Hugs,
>
>Sarah
>
>
>"macle" <Mates9999@cs.com> wrote in message news:44e3cc28$1@linux...
>>
>> Oh my gawd, lucifer!
>> either way, it's so absurd,
>> look around it's
>> such a blur you see!!
>>
>> Why is live and let live so hard? I dunno. Seems so easy.
>>
>> I've taken to burying my head in the sand. Ignorance is bliss
>> sort of nearly almost. It'll all work out in the end (except
>> for those of us burning in hell for eternity...OUCH!)
>>
>> Sarah, I listened to the clips on your site...very very
>> nice Paris sound. Thumbs up!
>>
>> Peace brothers and sisters!!
>>
>
>it just so happpens that the two CDs on constant rotation in my car are sarah's
and yours.
Very very good stuff.
-steve
"macle" <Mates9999@cs.com> wrote:
>
>Yes, we must spread *the word*!! Our hope is to be bigger than
>Jesus, Allah, John Lennon and L.Ron Hubbard put together!!
>
>Rock on Sarah!!
>
>"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>Well, thank you very much, mate. :) We do the best we can. I'm enjoying
>
>>yours, too. Tell ten friends to buy our CD, then they'll tell ten friends,
>
>>then they'll tell ten friends . . . .
>>
>>Hugs,
>>
>>Sarah
>>
>>
>>"macle" <Mates9999@cs.com> wrote in message news:44e3cc28$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Oh my gawd, lucifer!
>>> either way, it's so absurd,
>>> look around it's
>>> such a blur you see!!
>>>
>>> Why is live and let live so hard? I dunno. Seems so easy.
>>>
>>> I've taken to burying my head in the sand. Ignorance is bliss
>>> sort of nearly almost. It'll all work out in the end (except
>>> for those of us burning in hell for eternity...OUCH!)
>>>
>>> Sarah, I listened to the clips on your site...very very
>>> nice Paris sound. Thumbs up!
>>>
>>> Peace brothers and sisters!!
>>>
>>
>>
>I can confirm it. :-)
"Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>Can anyone confirm or deny this information?
>Sources please :)
>
>
>http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp
>
>To Tonehouse: Most skilled piano tuners use "stretch tuning",
not equal temperament, in the first place. Not many instruments
(except for things such as trombone, and fretless stringed
instruments) are even able to be played in perfect temperament
in the fitst place, so if a piano tuner were to use equal-
tempered tuning, the instrument would sound "off" - IOW, not
what we're used to hearing.
To Don: If you were adressing my post about adjusting your
tuning, or using tempered tuning dependent on the key of the
song, you're right, it's still not going to be "perfect", but
you said it yourself, it's going to be "better", and better
as opposed to not better is still better in my book! :)
If you somehow manage to get your guitar in perfect tune with
itself & to have perfect equal temperament, it's STILL going to
sound "off" with most modern keyboards/synths, because most of
the good ones use stretch tuning anyway nowadays (mainly
applied on sampled pianos & such). In fact, some of them can
even allow you to adjust just how much "strech" you have (like
my Fantom, for example).
Neil
"tonehouse" <zmcleod@comcast.net> wrote:
>As I was saying before,all of this stuff has been tried since the
>1960's,including having seperate nut saddles for each string,and seperate
>bridge saddles for each string..total freedom of compensation....but it
>didn't catch on...You can certainly make it sound "better",but not equal
>temperment,and chromatically .What you are doing is what harpsichord tuners
>did 300 years ago..use a non- equal temperment. Some people love that
>sound,as did Bach,until his compositions demanded the equal temperment...
>Any system such as Buzz Feitan ,still is not truly equal temperment,but
can
>sound better on some guitars,and in some keys.....
>"DC" <dc@spammersinnyc.com> wrote in message news:44e36951$1@linux...
>>
>> Ok, here's the short version. (It's my wife's birthday and we are
>> getting out of town)
>>
>> I will do a longer version, with pics, later.
>>
>> I started thinking about all this a year or so ago when I got my
>> Petersen Virtual Strobe tuner. On the chromatic setting you can
>> check the intonation very easily at the nut by perfectly tuning the
>> open string and the pressing down the string at the first fret.
>>
>> Ouch, my guitars averaged 4 out of 6 strings out of tune.
>>
>> (btw, let me add, that you cannot fix this problem with adjusting
>> your tuning. You can make it a bit better, in certain keys, but you
>> can't fix it. oh, also, if the height of the string slot is right, the
>> pressing down of the string is not significant here in terms of tuning
>> accuracy. a fact I doubted, until I checked it)
>>
>>
>> Then my guitar builder friend told me about this guy.
>>
>> http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/
>>
>> Check out the pics if you don't want to read the whole thing.
>>
>> BTW, none of the fixed staggered nuts like the Earvana are likely
>> to truly work well unless you use the exact same guitar, and strings
>> that they used. Fixed, staggered nuts suffer from the same design
>> flaw as fixed bridges at the other end of the guitar - one size fits all.
>>
>> Well it doesn't. Not if you want it right.
>>
>> Anyway, I first did a version of Delft's nut a year ago on one of the
>> guitars using pick material of different thicknesses as shim stock
>> and attaching them with super glue. Worked great. The guitar
>> played more in tune than any guitar I have played. (I do use the
>> Petersen sweetened tuning BTW, but do NOT use it or any other
>> when setting up the nut staggers. Standard equal temperment only
>> and you need a good chromatic tuner)
>>
>> Because that guitar plays better than all the others, (and it has worn
>> out frets!) I decided to do this with my favorite 87 Anderson strat
>> that has new stainless steel frets (which I LOVE) on it.
>>
>> I didn't want to do the whole glue-on leetle pieces of pick routine,
>> and it looks goofy anyway, so here's what I did:
>>
>> (this only works on strats. I have not tried it on anything else yet)
>>
>> --PLEASE don't try this if you care about your guitar's resale value--
>>
>> Also, this requires significant luthery skills (woodworking etc) if
>> you are not sure you can do this, you can ruin your neck!
>>
>> You get a Gibson nut blank form StewMac.
>>
>> http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/String_nuts/Graph_ Tech_Nuts.html
>>
>> #1868
>>
>> It is 3/16 wide as opposed to the 1/8 of strats. You inlet the
>fingerboard
>> in the direction of the body only, to make the nut slot
>> wider for the new nut.
>>
>> All of the extra width must be in the direction of the
>> body! (Please, if you can't do a beautiful job of inletting the
>> fingerboard, take it to a repair guy who can!)
>>
>>
>> In a few words, you file the new, wider nut back towards the
>> headstock to match the needs of each string. (using the tuner)
>>
>> Use new strings of the kind you always
>> use, since this will not be right when you change brands / gauges.
>>
>> You end up with a staggered nut that perfectly matches your
>> guitar, frets and strings.
>>
>> Oh yes, you will hear the difference.
>>
>> I have left out lots of important details, and you need some
>> really nice tools to do this, so don't go grabbing the files
>> just yet.
>>
>> Did I mention that it is a LOT of work to do this right? Well it is.
>> I have a lot of guitar tools, and I bought 120.00 more from various
>> sources, and it still took me almost 2 days...
>>
>> I intend to show Dan at Top Gear how I did this, and if he likes the
>> idea he may offer it as a service. Expect it to cost a few bucks.
>>
>> More to follow.
>>
>> DC
>
>LOL! Good point, Thad!
I'll take a shot at a few. Maybe...:
Famine or malnutrition
Influenza (various endemics of such, throughout time)
Old Age (ok, it's kind of a "Duh!", but it's still a killer)
Infection of wounds
Death at the hands (paws) of wild beasts
That's all I can come up with.
Neil
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>I'd be interested to hear the nine candidates you would propose ahead of
it.
>
>
>TCB
>
>rick <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>sarah
>>
>>everyone wants to be the holder of "the truth" and feel compelled to
>>convince others even if they have to kill them to do it. thankfully
>>not all go to that extreme...unfortunately many are willing to do just
>>that...on both sides of the argument. religion has to be in the top
>>ten killers of humanity throughout history.
>>
>>On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:00:26 -0700, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>(heavy sigh) I'm not sure why I'm continuing with this . . . I learned
>
>>>years ago you can't argue with a religious person. Yet I feel compelled
>to
>>>make my views clear to you, since you are pretty much consistently wrong
>in
>>>your assumptions about what I'm saying. I think you're still trying to
>view
>>>me as a "type" rather than just as that unique thing I like to call "me."
>>>
>>>First of all, the term "blind faith" is pretty much redundant. Faith
is
>
>>>essentially, by definition, blind. Faith is "belief that does not rest
>on
>>>logical proof or material evidence." You can have your own definition
>if
>>>you need to, but that's from the dictionary, and makes sense to me. If
>you
>>>have proof or evidence, it's not longer a belief, is it? I believe in
>
>>>gravity, even though I can't explain it to you. It's obviously,
>>>demonstrably, and universally agreeably real.
>>>
>>>Second, I am not saying God is unknowable . . . I'm saying I personally
>do
>>>not know who or what created this universe or when or why, and I see no
>
>>>evidence that anyone else does either, in spite of their fervent claims.
> I
>>>do believe in a higher power which is very exhilarating to feel truly
>>>connected to, but the attempts of religion in general to describe this
>
>>>"supreme being" anthropomorphically just strike me as very superficial
>and
>>>frankly, kind of childish. I put "God" in quotes because I think it's
>silly
>>>to try and turn this awesome everpresent life force into a "guy in the
>sky."
>>>I do not "blind" myself with this point of view. Quite the opposite,
my
>
>>>mind is wide open to spiritual experience, not limited to ancient dogma
>that
>>>I have no reason to believe.
>>>
>>>Which leads me to the real point I was hoping to make in fewer words:
>I
>>>have been arguing these ideas with believers since I was 17 (LONG time
>ago),
>>>and in all that time not ONE of them has given me a REASON to believe
that
>
>>>the bible is anything more than legend, parable, mythology, and a smattering
>
>>>of history. I should believe it's the word of God why? Because it claims
>
>>>to be? Those are the claims of Roman bishops and other ancient human
beings
>
>>>whose motives and honesty I know nothing about. And if the bible is the
>
>>>word of God, I'm not impressed. I expect better from a supreme being.
>>>
>>>Like the dozens before you, you tell me repeatedly what you believe in
>a way
>>>that suggests no opposing belief can possibly be true. I know WHAT you
>
>>>believe, I've heard it a thousand times over the last 30-some years.
What
>I
>>>don't know is WHY you believe it. Because it gives you hope? Because
>you
>>>were desperate for answers and a bible was handy? Because your parents
>
>>>believed it? Because you dropped acid and saw Jesus? Because you happened
>
>>>to be born here rather than India or Iran? And if you had been born in
>
>>>India or Iran, would you be just as fervently Hindu or Muslim?
>>>
>>>Nor has anyone ever been able to explain the logic in a supposedly
>>>omnipotent being sending his son to die for our sins. How does this make
>
>>>any sense? Isn't it more likely that Jesus simply became enough of a
threat
>
>>>to the Romans and the Jewish heirarchy that they decided to kill him?
>>>
>>>You speak a lot about assumptions. OK, here's one you seem to share with
>
>>>other believers that drives me nuts: without God there is no right or
>
>>>wrong. This is such nonsense. One does not need to believe in God, Heaven,
>
>>>or Hell to know the difference between right and wrong and to behave
>>>accordingly. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on
>
>>>sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is
>>>necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained
>by
>>>fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein
>>>
>>>And finally, I didn't mention "ghouls and head choppers" because the evil
>of
>>>"ghouls and head choppers" is not in dispute. I'm concerned about what
>has
>>>been done and is being done in my name as an American, because I believe
>
>>>that to also be evil and I'm just a little more than worried about the
>
>>>potential consequences of this.
>>>
>>>But I have to be honest . . . I feel like I just wasted another hour that
>I
>>>could have been catching up on sleep in. I should have learned by now
>that
>>>the more you challenge fixed beliefs, the harder the believer clings to
>
>>>them. You are of course free to believe what you want, but again, beliefs
>
>>>are by definition unproven, and therefore someone else's beliefs are not
>
>>>wrong simply because they contradict yours.
>>>
>>>OK, I mean it this time . . . I give up.
>>>
>>>Sarah
>>>
>>>
>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinmaui.com> wrote in message news:44e23a46$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>>>>The problem with blind faith is that one risks being blinded by faith.
>>>>>(Speaking from personal experience).
>>>>
>>>> Faith in God is not blind. What is blind is the choice to call God
>>>> unknowable. That is a choice to remain blind, and its source is
>>>> solely and admittedly, human. Your assumption is that all views are
>>>> human at the source.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree emphatically.
>>>>
>>>> Everything prodeeds from one's assumptions. Even considering
>>>> that the creator cared enough to send his son to die for us,
>>>> changes the whole world. Scary huh?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Perhaps the only thing "God" ever said to us was "Survive!" and then
>left
>>>> it
>>>>>up to us to figure out that cooperation works better than competition.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If God is in quotes for you, then why would "god's" opinion
>>>> matter? Well it doesn't of course. Survive, don't survive, bake
>>>> cookies, bake Jews, who is to say no? Why should anyone care if
>>>> they do? All is permitted.
>>>>
>>>> This is not God's plan for us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The
>>>>>"Golden Rule" is not simply a nice idea, it's a very practical and
>>>>>effective
>>>>
>>>>>way to live peacefully with our fellow humans.
>>>>
>>>> And the greedy dirtbag says "the one with the gold makes the
>>>> rules".
>>>>
>>>> And you disapprove. With only "god" (otherwise known as Sarah's
>>>> opinion) to rebut him, why should he care?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>As far as speculating on the afterlife, I just don't care. I'm fine
>with
>>>>
>>>>>the mystery, in fact, I like a good mystery. Sure, it can be fun to
>say
>>>>
>>>>>"what if this . . . " or "what if that . . . " but let's be honest here
>>>> --
>>>>>none of us will know until the time comes, and maybe not even then.
>And
>>>> I'm
>>>>>sorry, but "because the bible tells me so" doesn't work for me. It's
>just
>>>>
>>>>>stuff that was written by the brighter members of some fairly backward
>
>>>>>human
>>>>
>>>>>societies thousands of years ago who may or may not have been inspired
>by
>>>> a
>>>>>supreme being.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And you cannot see that this is merely your view, not fact.
>>>> It is an assertion that there are no miracles, that God does not
>>>> care if we have a we to know Him or not, that things proceeded in
>>>> the past as they do today, and Jesus' death and resurrection are
>>>> human myths created, as all "god talk" is, by humans to comfort
>>>> themselves...
>>>>
>>>> You may not be an atheist, but you accept *all* of their basic
>>>> assumptions about existence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, back to the original topic: picture 100,000 dead Iraqis
>>>>>(conservative estimate). Picture them all together in a pile. What
>do
>>>> you
>>>>>think . . . would it fill a football stadium, like a big bowl of brown
>
>>>>>rice?
>>>>
>>>>>I don't know, but now tell me how many of those were terrorists? 100?
>>>> 500?
>>>>>1000? It doesn't matter does it? Not to those who were innocent and
>
>>>>>their
>>>>
>>>>>families.
>>>>>
>>>>>Now picture 2500 dead American soldiers and the 62,000 wounded or maimed.
>>>>
>>>>>If we were lied into this "war" based on hidden agendas, I can think
>of
>>>> some
>>>>>heads of state whose heads should roll. They probably won't, but it's
>a
>>>>
>>>>>nice thought. Picture Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in orange jumpsuits
>and
>>>>
>>>>>chains . . . ni-i-i-i-i-ice. I feel better.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sarah
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it is this view that conerns me that we, as a people, are no
>>>> longer able to protect freedom. There were innocents killed in all
>>>> wars. This is no different. Would you broadcast from Dresden
>>>> or Nagasaki calling for the jailing of Truman? By your rules, you
>>>> would have to.
>>>>
>>>> We now have a whole generation of people who cannot bring themselves
>to do
>>>> what they must to protect our way of life.
>>>> Given that we face the most evil and implacable enemy in many
>>>> years, I am not sure that we will retain the freedom that those
>>>> WWII vets you admire so much, fought and died for.
>>>>
>>>> And finally, notice please, not one word of condemnation for the
>>>> ghouls and head choppers. Those who would use baby bottles
>>>> for binary explosives and die, with their infant in their arms, to kill
>>>> some of us. Not one word. This is why you simply are not
>>>> convincing me here. It is selective pacifism, pointed only at
>>>> Israel and the west and there is no righteousness in it.
>>>>
>>>> DC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>IME, you're right, redrawing only works if it's something
that's clipping "out" - if it clipped "in", you're screwed -
you're better off pasting another section in.
Neil
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>Muse wrote:
>> I have a good track with a couple of spots that clipped. How can I repair
>> that clipping?
>>
>> Thanks,Kevin
>>
>>
>Good question. You could cut 'n paste from other areas, oe try to
>redraw, but I doubt that would work.Tell him this (or something like it in your own words):
<begin letter>
Dear Billy-Bob,
When I charge my flat fee of $xxx per song, that fee is based
on the assumption that:
1.) I'll be doing the mixing in a timely fashion, but also more
or less at my convenience with regard to other scheduling
commitments I have.
2.) I'll be doing the mixing using certain sets of procedures
that I am accustomed to, and allows me to proceed with it in an
efficient manner, hence allowing me to charge that very
reasonable, aforementioned, flat fee.
3.) It allows for an initial mix or "trial mix" that I send to
clients, upon listening to which, they can offer up input as to
any changes or adjustments they might wish to hear, which I
then implement in order to get their final product.
For someone who wants to sit in on the entire proceedings,
a flat fee isn't really appropriate or relevant under those
conditions, since:
1.) I would have to schedule around not only my other
committments, but yours as well; which is fine, but also more
restrictive for both of us.
2.) I would no doubt be using a different set of procedures
than the ones that I am able to implement in my flat fee rate -
in other words, you would no doubt want to be more involved &
have ongoing input, ask questions, etc (otherwise why would you
want to be there, yes?), which could possibly alter the amount
of time spent on each mix.
3.) Instead of one "trial mix", there would likely be
several "trial mixes" & variants thereof made of each song
before you made a decision as to what you liked/didn't like
about each one.
Considering the above circumstances - which I am sure you can
identify with & relate to - if you want to sit in on a mix
session, I would be glad to accommodate you. Under those
circumstances, my normal hourly rate of $xx would apply.
Perhaps you might want to sit in on one mix & see how it goes;
that is, if you're interested in seeing how I work & the
processes I go through? If, after doing one song like that,
it's looking like it might be out of your budget range to do
all of them that way, then we can always switch to the flat fee
per song for the rest, using the first set of circumstances &
guidelines I outlined.
Let me know - looking forward to working with you!
<\end letter>
Send him that. He'll respond.
Neil
"Jesse Skeens" <jskeens@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>Hehe you might be right as he hasnt emailed me back ;-)
>
>Maybe I'll follow up and let him know I didn't mean he'd be charged. I
told
>him the fee for the mix and that I also off
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| Re: BTW: Paris XP, K8NS ultra939...any pitfalls??..(Kim?)..thanks! [message #70100 is a reply to message #70099] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 12:27 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
er training at $30 an hour (which
>insinuated I'd charge him to sit in). But maybe I can reverse the outcome
>so far.
>
>Jesse
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.org> wrote:
>>
>>Oh boy.. I wish!!
>>
>>Wouldn't that be cool. But if you do so, you will lose the client
>>IMO.
>>
>>You can, of course, lay down some rules about talking and giving
>>you constant advice while you are eq'ing a soloed track...
>>
>>"Oh, the mix went away!! It was so good a minute ago and now
>>the guitar is too loud!"
>>
>>grrrrrr
>>
>>DC
>>
>>
>>"Jesse Skeens" <jskeens@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>I have a few potential clients that would like to sit in on a session
while
>>>I mix their tracks. I figure this will take extra time so it seems fair
>>>to charge and hourly rate on top of the flat fee for the mix.
>>>
>>>Any ideas?
>>>
>>>Jesse
>>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>If you somehow manage to get your guitar in perfect tune with
>itself & to have perfect equal temperament, it's STILL going to
>sound "off" with most modern keyboards/synths, because most of
>the good ones use stretch tuning anyway nowadays (mainly
>applied on sampled pianos & such). In fact, some of them can
>even allow you to adjust just how much "strech" you have (like
>my Fantom, for example).
Of course. They are just 2 seperate subjects, temperment
& intonation. I wanted to raise one without the other, but someone
always raises temperment when you raise intonation, so I tried to
seperate the two issues again.
In truth, almost no guitarists care about temperment, and most
care very much about intonation. The reason for this is that the
guitar is flawed in its design in offering intonation compensation
at the bridge (well some guitars do at least) but not at the nut.
Just checking the open pitch vs. the pitch at the first fret will
confirm this, and fixing it has a dramatic effect on the guitars
intonation.
Intonation is defined here as how well the guitar matches its
intended temperment at all pitches.
The whole issue of how out of tune equal temperment is, is for
another discussion. Frankly, like it or not, it's mostly an academic
discussion.
I'd like to see if stretch tuning on kb's corresponds at all to the
Feiten system or the Petersen sweetened guitar tuning.
best,
DCReuters, the folks who published the phony pics, took down all the
work of the photog, and fired him.
Sounds confirmed.
DC
"Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>Can anyone confirm or deny this information?
>Sources please :)
>
>
>http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp
>
>There's quite a bet of techie info on the Tripath site, but it is at
the component level.
That's all I know of.
DC
"Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>Got any design spec pics/info?
>AA
>
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinbrooklyn.org> wrote in message news:44e4e63c$1@linux...
>>
>> These guys
>>
>> http://www.tripath.com/
>>
>> Have developed a new amp circuit called Class T. It allows for
>> extreme efficiency (95% in some cases) and potential for reducing
>> distortions significantly.
>>
>> Oh, and there is a class T amp out now, with 15 watts a side, that
>> people like the sound of, that costs 30.00 (USD)... !
>>
>> http://www.si-technologies.com/frontEnd/cm_productDetail.jsp ?productID=18
>>
>> Tape Op reviewed it recently and while they didn't throw their
>> other amps in the trash, they did like it. Now, a 30 buck amp that
>> sounds good is cool enough, but what is really cool is a 300.00
>> amp that kills 2K amps and puts out 1000 watts. This is where
>> the Class T technology seems to be leading.
>>
>> Yes, this will show up in our industry.
>>
>> Anybody seen/heard any Class T stuff?
>>
>> DC
>>
>
>"tonehouse" <zmcleod@comcast.net> wrote:
>I beg to differ with you, it is part of the same quest as trying to change
>the individual string lengths,at the termination ends...
Over the entire instrument, not between the nut and the first fret.
Ralph told me that his guitars are designed to sound full and warm
on lead and twangy and clear on the low strings. A strat and a Les
Paul on one guitar. The issue of nut compensation cannot be
addressed by scale length, or even multiple scale lengths on one
instrument. it can only be addressed by a compensated nut.
>How to get a fretted
>instrument to maintain the same mathematical ratio,as it goes up the
>fretboard..also how to get the octave harmonic at the 12th fret to be
>exact....
And once you fret a note, the issue of nut intonation no longer
exists. Compensated guitar nuts is purely an approach to deal with
the pitch accuracy between open and fretted notes.
>Novax has solved another side of the same problem.It is a different
>sound to play the fanned frets....It takes some getting used to...He could
>put a "compensated" nut on those guitars....He must have tried it,and found
>it didn't really help .
Why don't you ask him? I can assure you that it does help, and
in significant ways. BTW, I got comfortable with the fanned frets
in about 5 minutes. Lovely guitars really.
>As long as you get the 12th fret at the exact 1/2
>way point of the scale,you're in good shape...as long as the fret distances
>are measured and cut correctly.
This simply is not the case.
Without compensating the nut, the open string and the fretted
strings will not match. This is why open E chords and open D
chords do not usually both sound good on guitars. We adjust for it
by avoiding the strings that don't work in the other chord, but that
is not fixing it.
DCHey Jamie,
I probably should have replied originally in a generic post so you didn't
think all of that was referring to you (I wasn't referring to anyone in
particular - in general this is a great group of people - diverse opinions,
but usually even tempered discussion which I greatly appreciate).
The possibility of our country outlawing Christianity isn't a given, but a
trend I see - I really don't want to be right, and don't assume I am either.
We may never reach that point, but there are many other reasons why I see
that as a distinct possibility (for one, in Revelation when God talks about
the last days, there is not correlation to any entity resembling the United
States in its' current form - not that tying Revelation to any country
outside of Israel is obvious - it isn't. But there are parallels for other
countries, in some form).
I just sense that our country won't exist in this form eventually - either
through hostile, economic or religious takeover (not Christianity btw), or
gradual descent into another social and governmental form that
self-destructs. Another possibility is that we team up with Canada and
Mexico and form the North American Trade Union to compete with the EU (we
would have more letters in our acronym, which is always good, or not), but
that's completely unrelated, and far more likely to occur in our
lifetimes...
Specifically related to your post, I was mainly addressing your assertion
that our country is becoming a theocracy. Since the beginning of our
country we have actually taken more associations with
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