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Paris& Laptop [message #57960]

Wed, 07 September 2005 09:04

zmora
Messages: 88
Registered: August 2005

Member

4 also has a low 4096 samples latency for UAD plugz. If you think
that is big no

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57961 is a reply to message #57960]

Wed, 07 September 2005 11:00

Carl Amburn

Messages: 214
Registered: July 2005

Senior Member

te that FXpansion wrapper that you guys were using gives 16384
samples of latency !!

14. So you wrap senderella with Spinaudiolite.

15. You put senderella on the audio tracks you wanna send to a reverb, put
the send volume accordingly and redirect (full to the right) because
Spinaudio mixes two times the sound of the track)

16. On audio tracks 15 and 16 you put two 16bit empty long files

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57962 is a reply to message #57960]

Wed, 07 September 2005 11:01

Carl Amburn

Messages: 214
Registered: July 2005

Senior Member

(5 minutes
or more,whatever)
17. On track 15 you open as STEREO the senderella again (spinaudiolite
wrapped) and put senderella as receiver .
Then on next native slot you open FFX-4 on track 15 as STEREO again.

18. You open from inside FFX-4 a UAD1 reverb or any other DX reverb (like
DSPFX)
If you put UAD1 rvereb you get 4096 latency.
If you put a DX reverb you probably will get 0 latency !!, so no
compensation n

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57963 is a reply to message #57962]

Wed, 07 September 2005 10:59

Messages: 327
Registered: September 2005

Senior Member

eeded at all.
It ius like having AUX with DX effect for Paris !

19. Now if you insist of using a UAD1 plugin reverb, the to compensate you
do the following:

You nudge ALL YOUR TRACKS (except for the reverb return on tracks 15 and
16-well even if you put it there too nothing will happen anyway- )100ms to
the left and put voxengo sample delay (Try this instead of AnalogX DX
plugin because you have the 64 plugin limit and with VST plugins NO LIMIT
Then put inside latency plugin 384 samples to the right.
Thus all processed tracks will be alligned to reverb return on tracks.

That is for now.
Please ask questions so I can see where I did my wrong homework...
Regards,
DimitriosHello DM (Scott)?

Chuck Duffy has moved on to

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57964 is a reply to message #57963]

Wed, 07 September 2005 11:00

Messages: 327
Registered: September 2005

Senior Member

other activities in the past year. Did you paid
for the Brian Tankersley DVD and did not receive it? If so, start a new
thread
with that topic and maybe Aaron Allen can help out. AA was the videographer
and spent a huge amount of time comping and editing that production.

He may be able to burn you a one off DVD.

Regards,

El Miguel

"Deameat" <scott@postmodernblues.com> wrote in message
news:43259cf9$1@linux...
>
> John <no@no.com> wrote:
> >So POST something instead of lurking and then bitching.
> >John
> >
>
> Heh - Lurking.
> Not really - just came on to see how things were going with the community
> as of late, and not bitching either. Or trolling. I was just a little
amazed
> at the subjects, that's all.
>
> Actually, my system has been running pretty well recently (thank God), and
>

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57965 is a reply to message #57963]

Wed, 07 September 2005 11:01

EK Sound

Messages: 939
Registered: June 2005

Senior Member

I really don't have any bitches ATM. I would like to know what happened to
> the PARIS vid (that I sent money for about a year ago), and how to
purchase
> a couple of the plugins - don't know if anyone is actually still at the
great-idea
> site or anywhere else where I can buy the stuff.
>
> Do you?Unfortunately, I was out of town and missed the AES/Paris meet and greet,
but I did have a couple of hours yesterday to go to the show and mill about
for a bit. I was impressed with the number of high-end desks with small footprints
by the "big guns". I even ran across the "Star Trek" desk that Gene posted
a picture of a while back (can't recall the manufacturer).

I had an opportunity to check out a number of mic's (though extremely difficult
to discern much with all the ambient noise). Despite this circumstance, I
heard a couple that were interesting. There was a Braumer mic that was suggested
by a respected colleague...can't recall the model, but was pretty nice in
the $1,200 dollar range. I also met Ton

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57970 is a reply to message #57965]

Wed, 07 September 2005 14:02

Don Nafe

Messages: 1206
Registered: July 2005

Senior Member

side Chainer you can use FFX-4 so have chainer to wrap DX and
>VST....
>
>13. FFX-4 also has a low 4096 samples latency for UAD plugz. If you think
>that is big note that FXpansion wrapper that you guys were using gives 16384
>samples of latency !!
>
>14. So you wrap senderella with Spinaudiolite.
>
>15. You put senderella on the audio tracks you wanna send to a reverb, put
>the send volume accordingly and redirect (full to the right) because
>Spinaudio mixes two times the sound of the track)
>
>16. On audio tracks 15 and 16 you put two 16bit empty long files (5 minutes
>or more,whatever)
>17. On track 15 you open as STEREO the senderella again (spinaudiolite
>wrapped) and put senderella as receiver .
>Then on next native slot you open FFX-4 on track 15 as STEREO again.
>
>18. You open from inside FFX-4 a UAD1 reverb or any other DX reverb (like
>DSPFX)
>If you put UAD1 rvereb you get 4096 latency.
>If you put a DX reverb you probably will get 0 latency !!, so no
>compensation needed at all.
>It ius like having AUX with DX effect for Paris !
>
>19. Now if you insist of using a UAD1 plugin reverb, the to compensate you
>do the following:
>
>You nudge ALL YOUR TRACKS (except for the reverb return on tracks 15 and
>16-well even if you put it there too nothing will happen anyway- )100ms
to
>the le

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57971 is a reply to message #57970]

Wed, 07 September 2005 15:20

Tom Bruhl

Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007

Senior Member

ft and put voxengo sample delay (Try this instead of AnalogX DX
>plugin because you have the 64 plugin limit and with VST plugins NO LIMIT
>Then put inside latency plugin 384 samples to the right.
>Thus all processed tracks will be alligned to reverb return on tracks.
>
>That is for now.
>Please ask questions so I can see where I did my wrong homework...
>Regards,
>Dimitrios
>
>
>
>
>Some conversation or something I read lately, brings to mind a statement
that a lot of radio stations have gone to mp3s as a medium of storing their
playlists, hence the reason radio would sound like poop. And a friend of
mine just subscribed to Sirius radio 3 or 4 months back and was instantly
disappointed with the low quality "streaming sound" of the audio. I asked
him about it last week to see if he was able to do anything about better
reception or playback, and he said, "No, I've just kind of gotten used to
it." Hopefully the audio/data compression technology will continue to
improve, but once again, folks seem to choose convenience over high quality.

..02, CL

"cujo" <chris@applemanstudio.com> wrote in message news:4349d52a$1@linux...
>
>
> Sort of on this topic, anyone notice how bad radio is sounding lately?
> Even the Beatle hour is bad "you can't do that" sounded like a real audio
> file or something.
> I load my Ipod on the highest rate before Apple lossless.I did a remote recording last year at a benefit for Children's Hospital
that featured Diane Shur and Nancy Wilson. Nancy was absolutely
amazing!!! Perfect intonation... amazing phrasing... incredible stage
presence and delivery...

She is, indeed, the real deal.

She also looked good!

Gantt

Tyrone Corbett wrote:

> I did a gig in Atlanta a couple of nights ago. I'm still touring with Will
> Downing, but the gig was honoring legendary Jazz singer "Nancy Wilson". I
> am not certain of her age...late sixties I'm guessing, but she sounded incredible!!!
> She worked a mic in a way that is no longer in existence in today's music...truly
> sad. Her vocals were clean...riffs were phenomenal and interpretation skills
> outstanding!
>
> Certainly a worth while performer to see if at all possible.
>
> TyroneLooking for some insurance and they seem to look pretty good.
Was going to check out MusicPro,but I've been hearing some not
great reviews as of late.Might check Clarion too.
Heritage looks like no deductibles which is nice.

TIA,
PeteI think this would have more to do with slew rate than
frequency response..

David.

DC wrote:
> "Graham Duncan" <graham@grahamduncan.com> wrote:
>
>
>>And about those amp designers, what analog recording format (or more importantly,
>>what consumer playback medium) in the past had response out to 250k?
>
>
>
> It wasn't the frequency response of the source material being that high,
> it was the need for the amp circuitry to be able to go that
> high so that the leading edge of transients would be reproduced
> without any rounding off of the waveform. Deane Jensen wrote
> a paper on this years ago. I'll see if I can find a copy of it.
>
>
> DC>13. FFX-4 also has a low 4096 samples latency for UAD plugz. If you think
that is big note that FXpansion wrapper that you guys were using gives 16384
samples of latency !!<

I have been reading your posts about this. I appreciate your efforts. You
have done a whole lot of testing and in a previous post you mentioned a way
to get the sample latency of UAD-1 plugins down to 2048 samples, which is
*fairly* close to a 50ms nudge in the Paris editor. If a wrapper can
actually reduce latency, then why not write one that reduces it altogether?
Would this be possible to do?//........or at least might it be possible to
actually write a UAD-1 > Paris latency compensator/wrapper with even less
latency..........say exactly 88 samples, so it would corelate to 1 x Paris
ms (or some incremental *Paris* nudge/slide). If it was specific to Paris
editor increments such as:

1ms= 80 samples
5ms= 240 samples
10ms= 480 samples
25ms= 1120 samples
50ms= 2240 samples
75ms= 3360 samples
100ms= 4480 samples

..............then the Voxengo/Sampleslide step could be eliminated. Still,
there would need to be some way to adjust for the UAD-1 plugins like
Fairchild and Pultec, which have different latency than the 1176 and LA-2A,
so this *exact* situation might not ever be possible.

Dunno......just a thought.

Deej

"Mike R." <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:434a807e$1@linux...
>
> Dimitrios, thanks for the effort to put this together. I'm adding this to
> my "paris keepers" file.
> MR
>
> "Dimitrios" <musurgio@otenet.gr> wrote:
> >Ok,
> >Due to the many posts that maybe misleading if you don't follow all of
them
> >in the right order I decided to summarize what I know regarding
senderella
> >and its use with Paris .
> >
> >1. Use inside Paris.cfg at the top the string EDSTransfer=8,16
> You
> >could use 8,8 but this has problems with audio streaming. The 8,16 seems
> >like the magical number, remember I tried them all....
> >This is needed because then Senderella works realtime NO LATENCY as a
buss
> >inside Paris.
> >Senderella seems like the greatest discovery amoung FREE plugins for
Paris,
> >link: http://www.kvraudio.com/g

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57973 is a reply to message #57965]

Wed, 07 September 2005 17:29

Aaron Allen

Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008

Senior Member

T/UAD1/POWERCORE /EXTERNAL DEVICE reverb as
abuss
> >with senderella.
> >You occupy two Paris audio tracks for your reverb return using 16bit
(24bit
> >works too) silence paf file.
> >Here you can create a long 5 minute file or bigger and have it in handy
> >anytime you want it.
> >b) Use your favourite compressor VST/DX/UAD!/POWERCORE/EXTERNAL for buss
> >compression.
> >
> >4. On both uses the method is around the same.
> >
> >5. Senderella although showing up as it is in Paris as vst does not let
> the
> >audio pass the plugin, It stops in senderella so only WET signal can be
> >send.
> >this is useful only for bussing say dsrumtracks to a cmpressor and not
need
> >to have also the dry tracks playing.
> >In that situation no wrapper needs for senderella.
> >But for full use and potential senderella needs to be wrapped
> >
> >6. Wrappers that can be used are the FREE Spinaudio lite
> > http://www.spinaudio.com/downloads.php?download_type=3&d ownload_id=33
which
> >can wrap ONLY one VST plugin.
> >So here you can wrap one instance of senderella and use it as send for
> >reverbs.
> >If you buy Spinaudio ofcourse you can have as many plugins wrapped as you
> >want.
> >

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57975 is a reply to message #57973]

Wed, 07 September 2005 18:53

Paul Braun

Messages: 391
Registered: September 2005

Senior Member

tion and it's appreciated greatly.
Thanks for your effort once again,
Tom

"Mike R." <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote in message =
news:434a807e$1@linux...

Dimitrios, thanks for the effort to put this together. I'm adding =
this to
my "paris keepers" file. =20

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57977 is a reply to message #57975]

Wed, 07 September 2005 19:19

Tom Bruhl

Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007

Senior Member

ttp://www.kvraudio.com/get/1433.html" target="_blank">http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1433.html
>Senderella newest version has a redirect option so you can send the =
signal
>and not hear (or hear) the dry signal if you want.
>It has 64 bussses ! nad now saves its condition and prest (the =
version
>before could not) after saving your song.
>
>2. Senderella works across submixes ! but the latency in beetween =
submixes
>has to be taken into consideration.
>
>3. So possible uses are
>a} Use your favorite DX/VST/UAD1/POWERCORE /EXTERNAL DEVICE reverb as =
abuss
>with senderella.
>You occupy two Paris audio tracks for your reverb return using 16bit =
(24bit
>works too) silence paf file.
>Here you can create a long 5 minute file or bigger and have it in =
handy
>anytime you want it.
>b) Use your favourite compressor VST/DX/UAD!/POWERCORE/EXTERNAL for =
buss
>compression.
>
>4. On both uses the method is around the same.
>
>5. Senderella although showing up as it is in Paris as vst does not =
let
the
>audio pass the plugin, It stops in senderella so only WET signal can =
be
>send.
>this is useful only for bussing say dsrumtracks to a cmpressor and =
not need
>to have also the dry tracks playing.
>In that situation no wrapper needs for senderella.
>But for full use and potential senderella needs to be wrapped
>
>6. Wrappers that can be used are the FREE Spinaudio lite
=
> http://www.spinaudio.com/downloads.php?download_type=3D3& ;download_id=3D3=
3 which
>can wrap ONLY one VST plugin.
>So here you can wrap one instance of senderella and use it as send =
for
>reverbs.
>If you buy Spinaudio ofcourse you can have as many plugins wrapped as =
you
>want.
>
>7.. Senderella by renaming its dll like send1,send2,send3 etc can be =
used
as
>many times as you want it is that simple.
>
>8. you need to have 16bit files (empty) on the receining senderella
>instances.
>
>9. If you have multiple cards then use (if you want it across =
submixes)
>tracks 15 and 16 of your last card, so that all sending instances are =
bfore
>these two.
>
>10. On Me works but I haven't got very stable resluts which may be my
>computer though so you could give some more tests but on XP works =
just fine
>here.
>
>11. So to come to its actual use
>First you wrap as we said senderella, I prefer chainer because =
chainer is
>extremely stable and has some good functinality like dry and wet =
volumes
>many slots midi automation preset handling etc.
>Note that here we need a VST chainer/wrapper because senderella is =
only
VST.
>For UAD1 you can use the same wrapper chainer and wrap the vst =
versions
of
>VST.
>HINT: If you buy chainer get the free Spinaudiolite and use its one =
instance
>to wrap only chainer.
>So UAD1 plugins inside chainer will retain knob functionality and =
lower
the
>latency down to 4096 samples for a normal UAD1 plugin.
>
>12. If you wanna use all things without buying anything you can doing =
this:
>Get Spinaudiolite FREE and wrap senderella.
>Get FFX4 DX chainer free
>

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57983 is a reply to message #57973]

Wed, 07 September 2005 22:35

audioguy_nospam_

Messages: 60
Registered: June 2005

Member

ng senderella<BR>>instances.<BR>><BR>>9. If you have =
multiple=20
cards then use (if you want it across submixes)<BR>>tracks 15 and =
16 of=20
your last card, so that all sending instances are bfore<BR>>these=20
two.<BR>><BR>>10. On Me works but I haven't got very stable =
resluts=20
which may be my<BR>>computer though so you could give some more =
tests but=20
on XP works just fine<BR>>here.<BR>><BR>>11. So to come to =
its actual=20
use<BR>>First you wrap as we said senderella, I prefer chainer =
because=20
chainer is<BR>>extremely stable and has some good functinality like =
dry and=20
wet volumes<BR>>many slots midi automation preset handling =
etc.<BR>>Note=20
that here we need a VST chainer/wrapper because senderella is=20
only<BR>VST.<BR>>For UAD1 you can use the same wrapper chainer and =
wrap the=20
vst versions<BR>of<BR>>VST.<BR>>HINT: If you buy chainer get the =
free=20
Spinaudiolite and use its one instance<BR>>to wrap only =
chainer.<BR>>So=20
UAD1 plugins inside chainer will retain knob functionality and=20
lower<BR>the<BR>>latency down to 4096 samples for a normal UAD1=20
plugin.<BR>><BR>>12. If you wanna use all things without buying =
anything=20
you can doing this:<BR>>Get Spinaudiolite  FREE and wrap=20
senderella.<BR>>Get FFX4 DX chainer=20
=
free<BR>>http://vince

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57986 is a reply to message #57971]

Wed, 07 September 2005 22:44

audioguy_nospam_

Messages: 60
Registered: June 2005

Member

> >> >> > unexpeced problems as i am just finishing up
>> >> > a 12 song project in paris.
>> >>
>> >> 3.9 worked for me until I tried to render to disk with fx, then it
crash
>> my
>> >> system every time. I'm using 3.7 with out any problems.
>> >
>Howdy,

As long as it's the same physical hard drive that you first got the code
for, the old code will still work. If you need to reinstall on a fresh hard
drive, you can send the challenge code through any email account. The Paris
computer dosent need any direct link.. This is assuming they still answer
those pesky Paris emails....

Cheers

"Richard Faylor" <RichardFaylor@aol.com> wrote:
>
>I just bought a used (modem-less) Mac G4 to dedicate to Paris. It's been
years
>since I first installed Paris 3.0 on my old G3 and have forgotten how the
>installation process works. I still have my original order number, key number,
>and response code, but are they still valid after all these years? And since
>Paris is defunct, how and who would authorize the installation? Am I correct
>in assuming that I need to connect a modem to the G4 for authorization through
>the Internet or could I perform the authorization for my G4 through my old
>G3 which does have a modem? (I have dial-up only.) And is there someone
at
>Ensoniq/E-Mu to perform the authorization or is it simply automated? Sorry
>if I sound ridiculously stupid. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>--RichardI'm getting a large amount of crashes all of the sudden. Right in the middle
of a song playback will just stop, and the computer is frozen. I need to
physically disconnect the power cord to restart it.
Anybody else experience this?
It is only happening as far as I can tell with Paris, and it is not project
specific, nor related to any particular plugins. I have rulled that out.
I guess my next move is to remove one card at a time and see what happens
unless someone has any other suggestions.
Sigh.

Oh yeah, Windows '98 - 2 card system...This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5CDE3.57A182C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Tom,
You may have had problems because of console...
This damn nice chainer is a nogo (at least for now) with Paris.
It crashes Paris a lot.
I don't use any automation in Paris yet...
You know I am new here...
Maybe you used EDSTransfer=3D8,8 which is also a no go for Paris.
Too many streaming errors.
use

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57992 is a reply to message #57986]

Thu, 08 September 2005 02:55

rick

Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006

Senior Member

t="_blank">434ac5d4@linux</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dimitrios,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My problems were not crashing Paris =
but rendering=20
my C drive unbootable.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It may have been an unrelated problem =
but it was=20
traumatizing.  Thanks for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the quick response too.  =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It would be sweet to have the lowest =
latency=20
(reverbs with no compensation)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and a number that relates to Paris' 1 =
ms=20
nudge.  I'm all for that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Dimitrios" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:musurgio@otenet.gr">musurgio@otenet.gr</A>> wrote =
in message=20
<A href=3D"news:434ab602@linux">news:434ab602@linux</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Tom,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You may have had problems because =
of=20
console...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This damn nice chainer is a nogo =
(at least for=20
now) with Paris.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It crashes Paris a =
lot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't use any automation in Paris =

yet...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You know I am new =
here...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Maybe you used EDSTransfer=3D8,8 =
which is also a=20
no go for Paris.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Too many streaming =
errors.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>use 8,16</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Spinaudio wraps senderella in a way =
that if you=20
don't rfedirct the sound the sound almost doubles its volumeChainer =
does not=20
do that...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dimitrios</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-L

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Re: Paris& Laptop [message #57997 is a reply to message #57983]

Thu, 08 September 2005 09:52

rick

Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006

Senior Member

ke the Paris dinner. It was great
hanging out with Sakis, Adrian, Gene, Morgan, Chris, and guests. Of
course, the time flew by, but still we managed to cover many topics
and cry yet another round in our beer about the demise of Paris.

As far as the show goes, I had a great time, hauled in several pounds
of brouchures and trinkets, and renewed some friendships made in past
years. I saw Mr. and Mrs. Neve at one point, but my brush with
greatness was standing next to Les Paul at the John Hardy booth. I was
close enough to get his cooties, and those would be rockin',
change-the-way-we-make-music cooties, not those
please-buy-our-gear-before-we-go-broke cooties that were so prevalent.

On the gear front, I would have to say that everyone and his sister
seems to be making ribbons these days. That's cool, but I still like
my Wes Dooley R-84 the best. Also, his assistant let it slip that he
is working on a preamp for his mics. That will be very interesting.

My oogle piece of gear is the Muse Receptor. It was being hyped at the
last AES/NY show, but last time I checked was still in its early
growth stages. However, it seems that many software houses are working
with Muse and there is a ton of stuff to work with it. Sadly Waves and
UAD are not on the list, but Native Instruments is, and thats what I
want. Look for a posting on the forsale group soon as I sell my
hardware synths off to pay for one of these Receptors.

Another piece of gear that caught my eye was the new Lavry DA-10, a
competitor to the very popular Benchmark DAC-1. Lavry has a reputation
for making the best convertors, so it will be interesting to see how
these boxes duke it out in the coming year. Also, the Presonus/DeMaria
Labs preamp looks like a nice unit.

Finally, the Waves MaxxBCL was almost the first thing I saw when I
walked into the show, and it had me drooling (more than usual) the
rest of the day. If mom is reading this forum, I would really like one
of these under the tree this December, hint, hint.

As for laughs, I had a few. First, chatting with Grant Carpenter, who
makes the incredible Gordon preamps, and having him explain that
changing the dye color of his PCBs increased performance of his latest
generation of preamps. If you can discern the electron flow variations
between red and green PCBs, then you p

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