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MellowmusenATA [message #101386]

Tue, 02 December 2008 15:37

thesandbxo
Messages: 9
Registered: February 2008

Junior Member

ilter/smear to the sound so they are slightly off in timing, but didn't vary. What would someone suggest

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Re: Mellowmusen ATA [message #101404 is a reply to message #101386]

Tue, 02 December 2008 18:01

thesandbxo
Messages: 9
Registered: February 2008

Junior Member

IS 3.0 runs great, and PCs are relatively cheap. You'll be able to port all your session files, though native plugins may not be retained.

I wish I could help you with a Mac version, and I wish you the best of luck if you decide to contact ID. Please let us know how it goes.

I hope this helps.

MikeHi Mike,

Appreciate the reply. I'll try ID although first I need an EDS card (not touching my working system) as the spare (unused) one I have seems to be cactus. I will pass on any information I get from ID if I get to that stage.

Your advice re. running on PC is definitely an option, although I would prefer to have a backup system as close to my working rig as possible.

Regards, Nic.Hi All,

I'm deeply suspicious that a recent Windows 10 update cause the DPC subsystem of Windows 10 to perform much more poorly, causing crackles and pops in the ASIO driver at 64 and 128 sample buffer sizes.

This definitely wasn't the case a few weeks ago.

I can't figure out which update caused the problem because Windows 10 doesn't allow the updates to be removed. I can't test

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Re: Mellowmuse ATA [message #101405 is a reply to message #101386]

Tue, 02 December 2008 18:01

thesandbxo
Messages: 9
Registered: February 2008

Junior Member

what update specifically caused this, and I can't fix it.

Windows 7 is still working perfectly at 64 and 128 sample buffers sizes, even with all the latest updates applied.

I did a whole bunch of digging to try and figure this out, and I got my first clue running DPC Latency Checker.

Under Windows 10, if the computer does anything, even loading a web page, the DPC latency on my system shoots up to 1000 microseconds. That's 2/3 the way through a buffer at 64 samples.

Under Windows 7, the DPC latency on my system never gets much higher than 30 microseconds, no matter what the computer is doing. The hard disk light can be on solid, and it's still around 30 microseconds.

I hope this helps someone. I'm going to wait about a month, and if Windows 10 isn't fixed, Windows 7 is going back as my main OS.

All the best,

Mikehail to the bosses!

you look like a happy bunch of fellas!Just an update:

I just did a bunch of tests, and I can't reproduce the issue anymore.

I've been corresponding with Peter Brown at Microsoft, and he's offered to try to get s

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Re: Mellowmuse ATA [message #101406 is a reply to message #101405]

Tue, 02 December 2008 18:03

thesandbxo
Messages: 9
Registered: February 2008

Junior Member

omeone at Microsoft to help, which is very cool!

He also said that it can take a day or more for Windows 10 to "settle."

I ran a utility called Latency Monitor, and if it's numbers are accurate, there is no significant latency at all in Windows 10's scheduler. It shows just a few microseconds from IRQ to process notification. It completely contradicts DPC Latency Checker.

I've been going over my code with a fine toothed comb and creating tests to try to find any kind of synchronization issue between the main loop than runs on the EDS card and the ASIO loop. Everything is in perfect sync.

Maybe an update did just need a couple of days to "settle." I have no idea. I'm going to try to look at the new memory compression feature to see if it could have been involved.

I've added an option to the ASIO driver control panel so that we can chose between using the IRQ and polling for buffer switches. Polling uses more CPU time, but it was working when using the IRQ wasn't working.

I'm at a loss.

All the best,

MikeAs far as I can tell, the ASIO driver is done.

There is one issue that I can't seem to fix: Pro Tools 10 locks up if more than 8 faders are mapped via the C16 HUI mode.

Using more than 8 faders with Mackie Control mode under Harrison Mixbus works fine.

I tested by temporarily disabling everything C16 related in the driver except the ping reply (which is required), and Pro Tools still crashed with

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Re: Mellowmuse ATA [message #101408 is a reply to message #101406]

Tue, 02 December 2008 17:49

Messages: 327
Registered: September 2005

Senior Member

st be a genius.

And: Are the 8 faders in HUI mode bankable directly from the C16? Or does it mean that there are only 8 faders available altogether? ThanksHi Story,

Yes, a 64 bit ASIO (Which is not what I'm about to release) will work with Pro Tools 12. I have a copy of Pro Tools 12 in anticipation of testing the driver against it. Having said that, I expect a 64 bit version to take a 2 or 3 years to write. I'm thinking of coupling it with completely replacing the ParisStudiControlLib.dll file and moving that functionality into the Scherzo.

The PARIS hardware is actually really good. It transfers data via DMA in 64 sample buffers. It took me a while to figure out how to synchronize the ASIO buffer switches to this "Big Loop" in the EDS card, but it works out great.

As for the HUI, this is what I did:

Each bank of 8 C16 faders appears as a Midi Port. So, there is one midi in and one midi out for each 8 faders of a C16 (2 input ports and two output ports per C16), up to a maximum of 16 midi ports, or 128 faders. If I select more than one of these Midi ports in Pro Tools 10, Pro Tools locks up after a little while.

Doing almost the same thing in Harris Mixbus (MCP mode vs HUI mode) works fine.

I'll take one more look at it, but I really, really tried already, and I'm 99.9999% certain there is nothing wrong in my code.

You can still have as many tracks as you want in Pro Tools, you can only control them with the first 8 faders on the C16. The bank up and down buttons work. Transport controls and the jog wheel all work, too.

All the best!

Mike

Hi Story,

I don't have Cubase/Nuendo to test, unfortunately. But, if they support either HUI or MCU, they should work with the C16 just fine.

Did you want to beta test to be sure?

All the best,

MikeAllright, sounds good. So I can bank the first 8 faders through as many

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Re: Mellowmuse ATA [message #101411 is a reply to message #101408]

Tue, 02 December 2008 22:10

thesandbxo
Messages: 9
Registered: February 2008

Junior Member

ything seems to work fine with 16 channels of C16. I may just leave the ping reply off. Pro Tools with throw an error with a checkbox option to ignore future errors. After that, everything works fine.

Or, I may find a better fix. Anyway, Pro Tools 10 looks like it will have as many C16 faders as we have C16 faders.

All the best!

MikeSo Cool! So if Paris can't be run in the background, does that mean you can't use the ad/da to use hardware with the new DAW? Only the c16 as a controller?

Sorry if I missed it. I'd like to run reaper with 16 I/o for the production stage to then bounce to Paris for mixing. Hi N0samples,

The ASIO driver takes over the PARIS hardware and makes all the DA and AD available to the ASIO host in addition to the C16.

All the best,

Mikeok good to know, so far I have tested Win 10 on a friends PC and i cant see the point in upgrading.

So far Win 7 was best!

Hahahahahah--- Time to Settle down. Allright. The ASIO driver is a means of using a different app to front-end your PARIS hardware than the original PARIS app. The new app (you can choose from a wide range) replaces the PARIS app.

You can already use the PARIS app and another app at the same time without the ASIO driver, as long as you have a sound card you can use for the second app. Just go to the other app and choose the other sound card as its output and feed its outputs (analog or digital) into PARIS inputs and sync the two apps using any of the established methods.Hi Kim,

I'd like to set up the same thing as you: Cubase and Paris on the same Windows 7 64bit machine with a RME 9652 and ADAT sync. Did you get this to work now? I heard Will had this kind of problem too:

http://paris.kerrygalloway.com/index.php?t=msg&goto=1074 89&S=9782aea8f317f5cb4fb462cbe6dddc2b&srch=adat+sync #msg_107489

Curious now if I should do it or not.

ThanksSo far no go.
I'm using a separate PC for Cubase.
I have gone back to Windows XP for the Cubase machine.
At the moment I'm using the old Frontier Designs Dakota.
That seems to be the most solid.
The reason for going to Windows 7 was that I could install the 64 bit OS and take advantage of the extra RAM.
Next experiment will be to create a 64 bit XP partition, and see if that will work without the jittery "stop" mode. I don't really care, as long as it works.
The Dakota worked with Win7, but I was getting crashes. The drivers available are only beta, and there's no sign of an update, as the Dakota is pretty much history.
RME have better support, so I'm hoping it will work just as well on XP 64 bit, as i

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Re: Mellowmuse ATA [message #101412 is a reply to message #101411]

Tue, 02 December 2008 22:17

thesandbxo
Messages: 9
Registered: February 2008

Junior Member

t does on 32 bit.
Will keep you posted.
I have never tried to run Cubase and Paris on the same machine.
Cheers,
KimP.S.
I just noticed that RME have released a new driver, as at 19th July this year.
I'm going to download it and see if the issues are fixed.
Stay tuned!
Kim W.Interestingly enough both Will and Daniel had the exact same "stutter" as you with the RME 9652. And Will even had that under XP. So it seems to be more down to the RME's way of transferring the incoming signal to the ASIO Positiong Protocol.

A

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Re: Mellowmuse ATA - ALL PARIS USERS - READ THIS PLEASE!! [message #101420 is a reply to message #101412]

Wed, 03 December 2008 08:43

Messages: 327
Registered: September 2005

Senior Member

now.So....
In 2016, what is better for a PARIS audio drive?
NTFS
FAT32 64 block format

Found this very cool app for an easy FAT32 format on Win 7.

https://pendriveapps.com/format-fat32-larger-than-32gb/

Maybe a sticky or link to it in the PARISwiki.I've used NTFS with Paris for years.

Cheers,

KimHello Paris people,

I would really appreciate your expertise & advice--I have been using Paris in an old Blue & White G3 Mac (rock-solid for well over a decade), and it appears that the power supply has gone out. It looks like I'm faced with three options:

1 -- get the power supply fixed (if it's even possible, & if it doesn't cost an insane amount)

2 -- drop PARIS into another old Mac (assuming PACE response codes are still available--see below)

3 -- switch to PC. I understand that there are many benefits to this (including a PACE-free Paris), but i'm reluctant to go this route as I have never

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Re: Mellowmuse ATA - ALL PARIS USERS - READ THIS PLEASE!! [message #101421 is a reply to message #101420]

Wed, 03 December 2008 10:26

Tom Bruhl

Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007

Senior Member

owned a PC in my life, and setting one up could involve a lengthy learning curve.

About the PACE question, and option #2, I read conflicting info on this forum. Under the topic "Paris on OS9 without response code?", "LDstudios" said on 10/10/16 that ID had told him that response codes are still being sent to original purchasers (of which I am one, although I bought my system right after it was discontinued).

But under the topic "PACE Free PARIS 3.01", "mikeaudet" said on 6/18/16 that ID has stated they will no longer provide response codes.

Can anyone shed light on this? Or could someone give me the email address for ID?

Opinions on which direction I should go would be much appreciated.

Thanks much!
Dale BradleyHi Dale.
If you are happy with your present Paris rig, I'd be loathe to jump into PC land as you would indeed be in for a learning curve.
Not to say you shouldn't, as I have been using Paris on PC since day one and yes, there are benefits, given that mac support is virtually non existent now.
Perhaps you could experiment with a new rig, whilst keeping your old one alive.
I found this:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Apple-Mac-G3-Blue-White-PowerMac- PPC-200W-AcBel-Power-Supply-API-8594-/192015236371?hash=item 2cb4fffd13:g:TA8AAOSw4GVYF7BO

Not too expensive, and I'm sure you could fit it yourself.

Cheers,

Kim
Thanks so much, Kim! I bought that power supply & will give that a try first.

Cheers,
DaleHi all,

I'm sorry that this has taken longer than I expected.

Some beta testing uncovered a bug in the 24 bit mode at 64 samples that I hadn't seen on my system. I've moved where the IRQ is fired in the main loop that runs on the EDS cards, and made some other adjustments to accommodate that. The change gives more time for the buffer switch to complete. I've added a 32 bit transfer mode, too.

I also fixed a bug relating to the IF2.

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Re: Mellowmuse ATA - ALL PARIS USERS - READ THIS PLEASE!! [message #101422 is a reply to message #101421]

Wed, 03 December 2008 10:39

Kerry Galloway

Messages: 56
Registered: December 2008

Member

r />
If the testing comes back good, its done.

Before I release this, I'd like to revisit a post that I made a while back. A latency testing utility was reporting less than 64 samples latency with the driver. That utility wasn't accurate, unfortunately.

Harrison Mixbus reports about 600 samples of latency at 64 samples, 32 bit transfers. That's just over 13 ms. There appears to be a fair bit of additional buffering inside the EDS1000 card and the MEC.

Ultra low latency will still require

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Re: Mellowmuse ATA - ALL PARIS USERS - READ THIS PLEASE!! [message #101423 is a reply to message #101421]

Wed, 03 December 2008 11:14

Messages: 327
Registered: September 2005

Senior Member

the PARIS application, but I've found playing electric guitar through the ASIO driver at 64 samples to feel fine.

I hope this doesn't pose a problem for anyone.

All the best,

Mike

Hey Mike,

Is the over 13 ms. latency issue in other programs or is it just in Harrison Mixbus? Just wondering if it is mainly hardware or software related.

JamesI'm only testing with the Harrison Mixbus latency tool.

I find it kind of strange, though. I'm patching the audio streams in the exact same way that the PARIS application does, except I'm bypassing the mixer. I should be getting less latency, not more.

I found a bug on the inputs side that was adding an extra buffer of latency (don't ask). The latest figures from Harrison Mixbus at 64 samples, 32 bit are:

S/PDIF on MEC: 478 samples- 10.839ms
Main In/Out: 535 samples - 12.132ms

I just discovered this morning a bug that affected non-master cards. It turns out that the main voice engine loops weren't synchronized between cards. They were close, but not quite the same. I spent so much time getting the main ASIO loop synchronized with the main loop in the EDS card, but I was only in sync with the first one. I just changed the EDS voice engine to synch them. So far, it's testing good.

This has definitely been a challenge.

All the best,

Mike

Hey Mike, thanks for the response and all your hard work. It's too bad Edmund wouldn't release the code and the notes, it might have given you more insight into how Paris gets the low latency. I know you'll get it figured out.

Thanks again Mike!

JamesHi James,

Thanks for your kind words. I've been thinking about it all day.

This isn't Edmund's work. I think this was done by guys at Ensoniq.

Here is a comment from patchdef.e2, part of the ESP2 code that runs on the cards:

// The Sharemem in Scherzo is at 200000. The Patchbay is the first thing in memory.
// In consists of small buffers (patchpoints) that revolve in the ESP2 modulo fashion,
// around the whole patchbay. The voices need larger buffers, for buffering to and from
// the PCI bus. These buffers have to be big enough to "amortize" the variation in
// fill time due to 1. PCI latencies 2. frame and stream boundary processing.

/* A Playback patchpoint/buffer has 3 regions:
A 64 word patchpoint "delay" area
the 128 wordfetch-ahead buffer.
A 64 word overflow area.
A Record patchpoint/buffer has no delay region.
A DSP writes to the patchpoint at the base of the buffer.
The next 128 words are the buffer.

So, it looks like there is some significant buffering in the EDS cards for disk based voices that isn't there for live inputs that go through the mixer. It may need to be there because of the PCI bus.

The patch bay is the big area of memory that is used by everything. If I change it, all the code that runs on all 6 ESP chips is affected, and potentially broken.

Down the road, if there is interest in this, we can look at incorporating the PARIS mixer for direct monitoring and effects. As it is, the latency is still very low, and we can always track in the PARIS app and mix using ASIO. It's just not the 3 - 6 ms I know I was hoping for.

All the best,

Mike

Is it possible to use Paris effects in Cubase, if u are using asio-driver ?
I don't like to miss the Paris-FX in Cubase.

Best regards
Dan

I would like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and

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Re: Mellowmuse ATA - ALL PARIS USERS - READ THIS PLEASE!! [message #101425 is a reply to message #101422]

Wed, 03 December 2008 14:07

Tom Bruhl

Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007

Senior Member

/> I don't see any attachment on the first post of this thread...can someone please post the 3.01 PACE free file?

Thanks!
SigI have a copy of Paris 3 installed on my laptop, which is running win. xp, sp3, 32 bit. i have the eds card installed on a magma pci box, which connects to the laptop via the pcmcia slot. I also have a Soundblaster live card installed into the magma. the magma box is fully installed and operating properly, and I'm sure of this because the Soundblaster card is working perfectly fine. but when I try to install the Scherzo driver for the eds card, under sound, video, and game controllers, I keep getting the following error message:

"the class installer has denied the request to install or upgrade this device"

does anyone understand what this message means, and what is going on here, and can help me to install the driver for paris?

thanks!

ps: where is the attachment to download 3.01? I don't see it--- and the pace free file? I don't see where to download that one either---

thanks allHi Harry. Did you check your PMs?
Mike,
any updates on the ASIO driver or where it might be posted?
MattI'm still testing with bigger systems (more than two cards) I just added a forth card into my expansion chassis, and I'm testing.

I ran into a problem where slaved cards were running their DMA loop out of sync with the master card. At 64 samples, the master card would work fine, but the other cards would be intermittently garbled. I think I have it fixed.

All the best,

Mike

Thanks Mike,
I pretty much shut everything down about 2 1/2 years after our daughter was born and we moved over the summer last year. Things are starting to settle down a bit and although pr

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