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sion and comparison of concepts - i even went as far as to say that the concept of preemptive strikes is "fair enough", for the sake of a meaningful discussion, even though i personally believe that deescalation is the better way to go, an opinion i dont base on some doctrince but on what i see in israel, which not only serves as a good and current example for the different concepts but conveniently even has the same enemy your currently fighting for. when youre ready for that kind of discussion, im all ears. but spare me the standard BS. its not helping, and you know it. "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: >..............and furthermore, I think I am getting the impression from your >posts that you believe that I thought all of these Europpeans wer bad people >somehow. Tjhat is not the case. I am as disappointed in the Europeans as you >obviously are at the US. We can disagree. If you think that somehow I am >going to go along with dropping a nuke somewhere then you are mistaken. My >post to Neil was meant as a rather grim joke, but these are grim times. What >would you have us do if we have credible evidence that Tehran has their >finger on the button that will send a nuke to Berlin? Do you want us to wait >while the UN argues about it and Berlin burns to the ground? I assure you >th
ss to someone who actually does know a thing or two >> > about europe because he happens to live there. >> > >> > the sad part being, in your case it wasnt irony. >> > >> > >> > >> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: >> > >First of all, now I am really astounded at you. You say you know so >much >> > >about America??????? You are also getting your information from a very >> small >> > >sample. I know you lived here for a while and have visited here often, >> but >> > >you don't live here *now* and you are obviously choosing very carefully >> > what >> > >you want to believe. If you want to consider your sources to be any >more >> > >valid than mine, then first consider where your sources are coming from >> > and >> > >make sure you consider them all. I will try to do the same..........but >> > I >> > >assure you that if you ignore cultural differences which, whether you >> like >> > >it or not, are the reasons that stereotypes are created, they you do >> truly >> > >have your head buried in the sand. >> > > >> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message >news:42d6bf8a$1@linux... >> > >> >> > >> wheres the part with the long visits to the countries you seem >> > >> to know enough about to be sure that your s
tereotypes are >> > >> "real"? you are really trying to tell ME (i LIVE here...) that your >> > >> stereotypes are "the truth"
because of the bunch >> > >> stereotype-ish people that conveniently lived somewhere >> > >> near you in the last 20 years? you know, i happen to know >> > >> some americans that live here too. so let me explain to you >> > >> what america is and how america works, because i do know. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> unbelievable. even funny in a way. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> that non-judgmentalism you talk about, yeah i know, it currently >> > >> is pe
llywood movies like >Salvador >> > >only >> > >> >show one side of this *freedom fighter* picture. It was awful, but I >> > saw >> > >> >some stuff down there that was done by Cuban agents and their >> > >bloodthirsty >> > >> >guerilla allies that was as bad as anything you can possibly imagine >> > in >> > >> your >> > >> >worst nightmares. None of this kind of stuff is good, but I can >assure >> > >you >> > >> >that Americans weren't the only ones associated with death squads. >It >> > was >> > >> >just reported that way in the press. >> > >> > >> > >> >As far as my comments which apparently have convinced you that I am >> > >> >unrecoginzable, perhaps I am. People change. We have been attacked. >We >> > >know >&gt
; > >happened >> > >> >early on. The Indians who were all part of the big extended family >> that >> > >> ws >> > >> >running this place were all laughing like crazy one night at a get >> > >together >> > >> >they were having. I could understand their dialect and they had >known >> > me >> > >> for >> > >> >years. wht they were laughing about was the stereotypes they were >> > >noticing. >> > >> > >> > >> >The French tourists distrusted the Germans. The Italians and the >> French >> > >> >seemed to be in some sort of competition all the time with each >other. >> > >The >> > >> >Quebecois Canadians pretty much hated the
; > >> >how long it takes the UN do anything. In the meantime.....millions >of >> > >people >> > >> >can die. Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years >> and >> > >> was >> > >> >in a position to do us a lot of harm. I don't buy the idea that he >was >> > >some >> > >> >non-threat. Saying that we should have waited longer after we had >> waited >> > >> for >> > >> >10 years while the French, Russians and the UN bureaucrats had >> supported >> > >> >Sadaam against the same resolutions they had approved gives me >little >> > >faith >> > >> >in the UN doing anything right or in a timely manner and given this >> > >> >experience. >> > >> > >> > >> >I think the European people should be supporting us and they are >very >> > >> >divided about this. My opinions are mixed about them as well so >> > >yes......I >> > >> >have changed. I'm tryly sorry that you now see me as some kind of >evil >> > >> >person, but I'll get over it. >> > >> > >> > >>
>> > He >> > >> was >> > >> >a >> > >> >> merchanical design engineer and a pilot and did a lot of work >> designing >> > >> >> large installations for the agricultural interests which were >> sponsored >> > >> by >> > >> >> both rich Mexican landowners and the Mexican government (which was >> > >> >basically >> > >> >> rich Mexican and other international landowners) I saw lots more >> > >ugliness >> > >> >> there as far as exploitation of people by other people. It was so >> > >> >obviously >> > >> >> wrong and when I would ask my father about it, he would excuse it, >> > but >> > >> I >> > >> >> couldn't accept this. I became very rebellous and a what is called >> > >here, >> > >> a >>
olitial >> > >anarchism. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> While I was in school, I ran into a few old acquaintances. They >were >> > >the >> > >> >> rich children of some of the people my dad had been doing business >> > with >> > >> in >> > >> >> Mexico. They were going to universtity in the states and were, >like >> > me, >> > >> >> angry, into the counterculture and we renewed our friendships. I >> > >started >> > >> >> going down to Mexico with them on school holidays and we would >> travel >> > >> to >> > >> >> places which were pretty unbelievable. Like paradises which were >> mostly >> > >> >> untouched by human beings (except of course, the local Indians, >who >> > >were >> > >> >not >> > >> >> really considered to be human by anyone, including these >> *enlightened* >> > >> >young >> > >> >> Mexican revolutionaries-the Indians weren't cool. They were >> > >> >traditionalists >> > >> >> and not into drugs, socialism and free love). A lot of the friends >> > of >> > >&g
f >> > >> >which >> > >> >> were his in-laws, Manuel and Maria who basically founded this >small >> > >> >village >> > >> >> back in the early 20th century and were very old. I spent a good >> part >> > >> of >> > >> >my >> > >> >> life in this place and lived with this family during those times >> from >> > >> 1973 >> > >> >> until 1990. Unfortunately, this place is nothing like it used to >be >> > and >> > >> >now >> > >> >> even has websites dedicated to it, but I guess that's part of the >> story >> > >> >> about thie place. >> > >> >> I am going to post a link to this place so that you can see it. >You >> > may >> > >> >have >> > >> >> been there or know people who have. There is more to this story >but >> > I >> > >> have >> > >> >> work to do today so I will stop now and continue later when I have >> > the >> > >> >time. >> > >> >> This story actually does lead somewhere that is relevant to this >> > >> >> conversation. Sorry it has been so long but you have asked me a >> > >question >> > >> >> that is valid, but not easily answered, so I'll continue later if >> you >> > >> are >> > >> >> interested. Though I haven't been there for a while, this was my >> home >> > >> and >> > >> >is >> > >> >> still my second home- >> > >> >> >> > >> >> I know a lot of the people in these pictures. I watched them grow >up >> > >and >> > >> >> taught a few of them how to swim and catch fish. the beautiful >young >> > >> >woman, >> > >> >> Claudia is the >> > >> >> niece of my friend Ramon. The two people, John and Maria were >guests >> > at >> > >> my<br /
the >> > >social >> > >> >> experiment that is >> > >> >> happening there. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> http://www.greatvavavoom.com/stories/storyReader$56 >> > >> >> >> > >> >> This link is also descriptive of how this place has evolved and >> what >> > >> the >> > >> >> place was like the last time I was there. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> http://community-2.webtv.net/ivanjay/IVANJSNAVELYHOMEPORT/ >> > >> >> >> > >> >> more to come...... >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Regards, >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Doug >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >><br
/> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message >> news:42d45df1@linux... >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint, >> > >> >> > but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you. >> > >> >> > reading the stereotype BS you spread, im frankly shocked, >> > >> >> > thats pretty much all there is to it. i definetly dont recognize >> > you. >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > maybe its because im a european hypocrite sitting on my ass or >> > >> >something. >> > >> >> > cause thats the way we are, we "euros", right? >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > *shakes head in disbelief* >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: >> > >> >> > >Yes I do. Unfortunately, we apparently understand each other. >> > >> >> > ><br
gt;> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >It makes me sad too Derek. If the governments of Europe >would >> > >learn >> > >> >> from >> > >> >> > >> the >> > >> >> > >> >mistakes of the past, it would make me less sad. >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message >> > >> >> news:42d436c1$1@linux... >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> doug, >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> your fucked up picture of europe truly makes me sad. >> > >> >> > >> >> youve come a long way, really. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> regards, >> > >> >> > >> >> derek >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war/wmd/fuel-air-explo sion/ >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >Maybe this??? Lots less radioactivity.........but >> > >> >> > >seriously............. >> > >> >> > >> >> >you're right that Muslims are going to need to get real >> > >proactive >> > >> >> > with >> > >> >> > >> >their >> > >> >> > >> >> >own. There's some pretty Hitlerian dialog going on in >> Holland >> > >> >these >> > >> >> > >days >> > >> >> > >> >> >about how to clean up the *Islamic problem*. It's funny >> about >> > >> how >> > >> >> > the >> > >> >> > >> >Euro's >> > >> >> > >> >> >whine and bitch about how unfair and awful war is, then >> when >> > >> the >> > >> >> chips >> > >> >> > >> >are >> > >> >> > >> >> >down.......bingo!!!!!! let's sit around on our collective >> > >asses >> > >> >and >> > >> >> > >watch >> > >> >> > >> >> >the Serbs dio a little ethnic housekeeping........oh >> shit!!!! >> > >> >> > >> >.......those >> > >> >> > >> >> >meddling Americans came along and saved the Muslims and >> > >spoiled >> > >> >all >> > >> >> > >our >> > >> >> > >> >> >fun.............but hell, let's go visit our buddy Sadaam >> > and >> > >> >pick >> > >> >> > up >> > >> >> > >> a >> > >> >> > >> >> few >> > >> >> > >> >> >million barrells of oil while we're there. Those kids who >> > are >> > >> >dying >> > >> >> > of >> > >> >> > >> >> >starvation and disease due to our turning a blind eye to >> his >> > >> >> > >violations >> > >> >> > >> >> of >> > >> >> > >> >> >UN sanctions won't care. Hell, they're too busy swatting >> the >> > >> >flies >> > >> >> > off >> > >> >> > >> >their >> > >> >> > >> >> >festering wounds and running to the crapper with >> > >> >> disentery.........and >> > >> >> > >> >just >> > >> >> > >> >> >maybe while we're there we get lucky in a rape room. >> Whaddaya >> > >> say >> > >> >> > >guys? >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >The hypocracy is just unbelievable. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message >> > >news:42cf19b3$1@linux... >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Your whole line of thought, if correct - especially >your >> > 3rd >> > >> & >> > >> >> > >> >> >> 4th paragraphs - would mean that Bush is one of the >most >> > >evil >> > >> >> > >> >> >> sonsofbeeatches ever to walk the face of the earth. I >> find >> > >> it >> > >> >> > >> >> >> hard to believe that in ANY free society, that could be >> > the >> > >> >> > >> >> >> case. Dictatorships, yeah, free societies, nah. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Ya know, as a side thought, for awhile there, I was >> really >> > >> >> > >> >> >> starting to feel like we made a mistake by going into >> > >Iraq... >> > >> >> > >> >> >> that we were hornswaggled, as they say - conned by the >> > >Iraqi's >> > >> >> > >> >> >> who are NOW in power, and who had their own agenda >> against >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Saddam. Now, with these latest bombings, I'm back to >> being >> > >> >> > >> >> >> all about retribution, since massive force is the only >> thing >> > >> >> > >> >> >> these extremists seem to understand - or if they don't >> > >> >> > >> >> >> understand it, at least we'll lower their numbers & >limit >> >> > >their >> > >> >> > >> >> >> capabilities by that method. So I'm now thinking that a >> > good >> > >> >> > >> >> >
> position would be: for every terrorist attack that >occurs >> > >> >> > >> >> >> against us or one of our allies, we should nuke an >> Islamic >> > >> >city. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> One bomb - done. Next? Oh you want to bomb another >> embassy? >> > >> OK, >> > >> >> > >> >> >> fine, there goes another Islamic city... bigger bomb >this >> > >time. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Trust me, that kind of shit wouldn't last too long >before >> > we >> > >> >> > >> >> >> had peace on earth & goodwill towards all men for a >good >> > >long >> > >> >> > >> >> >> time. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Neil >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Neil >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> "Mike Audet" <mike@mike......com> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Hi Mr. Simplicity, >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Unfortunately, Iraq is very much about oil for the >US - >> > big >> > >> US >> > >> >> >
his >> > >> >> > >> >senselessness >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > - American, British, Canadian, Iraqi, and everyone >> else. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >All the best, >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Mike Audet >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Kim, >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>I hear your arguments and I respect your opinion. I >do >> > >not, >> > >> >> > >however, >> > >> >> > >> >> >agree >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>with your opinion. Waiting any longher would have >done >> > no >> > >> >good >> > >> >> > at >> > >> >> > >> all >> > >> >> > >> >> >(my >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>opinion of course) a
> >> >> in >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >the >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>desolation of the Iraqi hinterland. I don't think >this >> > >story >> > >> >is >> > >> >> > >over >> > >> >> > >> >> >yet. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >I >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>do think that those who dislike Bush desperately want >> > it >> > >> to >> > >> >be >> > >> >> > >over >> > >> >> > >> >> so >> > >> >> > >> >> >> they >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>can point fingers and trumpet their riteousness, all >> the >> > >> >while >> > >> >> > >> >bellowing >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>that the war was about WMD's and there weren't any >> found, >> > >> >> > >therefore, >> > >> >> > >> >> the >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >war >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>was unjustified. This is political spin at it's >> absolute >> > >> >lowest >> > >> >> > >> >partisan >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>level. This war was about justifiably enforcing UN >> > >> >resolutions >> > >> >> > and >> > >> >> > >> in >> > >> >> > >> >> >doing >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>so, removing a bl
oodthirsty monster who was a proven >> > >menace >> > >> >to >> > >> >> > >> >stability >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >in >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>the region. Would it have happened if 9-11 hadn't >> > >happened? >> > >> I >> > >> >> > >don't >> > >> >> > >> >> >know, >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>but I think eventually Sadaam would have succeeded in >> > >> >shooting >> > >> >> > >down >> > >> >> > >> >> one >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >of >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>our aircraft that was enforcing the no-fly zone and >we >> > >would >> > >> >> have >> > >> >> > >> >done >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>something. Obviously the EU, Russia and the UN didn't >> > give >> > >> a >> > >> >> damn >> > >> >> > >> >about >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>anything but oil. It's blatantly obvious that keeping >> > >Sadaam >> > >> >in >> > >> >> > >power >> > >> >> > >> >> >was >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>all about oil. If this was about oil to us, I >> guarantee >> > >> we >> > >> >> would >> > >> >> > >> >have >> > >> >> > >> >> >> half >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>a million men over there right now guarding the >> pipelines >> > >> and >> > >> >> > >> >> >infrastructure >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>from border to border and we'd be sucking that teat >dry >> > as >> > >> a >> > >> >> bone >> > >> >> > >> as >> > >> >> > >> >>
thers, and figured >"freeing" >> > >Iraq >> > >> >> would >> > >> >> > >> >give >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >them >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> more oil power. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> It really frustrates me that as I look around those >> > >events, >> > >> >> > >> >> >politically, >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> every country pretty much seemed to be in it for >> their >> > >> own >> > >> >> > >agenda, >> > >> >> > >> >> and >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >not >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> for peace. Indeed the same could be said for much >of >> > the >> > >> >> public. >> > >> >> > >> It >> > >> >> > >> >> >was >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>obviouly >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> sold as anti-terror because GWB & co didn't think >> "free >> > >> >Iraq >> > >> >> > >from >> > >> >> > >> >> >tyranny" >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> would sell because, simply put, a lot of the public >> > >don't >> > >> >> seem >> > >> >> > >> to >> > >> >> > >> >> care >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >if >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> others in some other country miles away suffer, so >> you >> > >> have >> > >> >> > to >> > >> >> > >> tell >> > >> >> > >> >> >them >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> that Iraq pose a threat. See, if GWB hadn't lied >> about >> > >> that >> > >> >> > I >> > >> >> > >> >*almost* >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>would >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> have been on his side... though I still couldn't >> have >> > >> >> stomached >> > >> >> > >> >that >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >as >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> he was, to my mind, clearly in it for the oil. I >> think >> > >> if >> > >> >the >> > >> >> > >U.S. >> > >> >> > >> >> had >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>waited >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> a little longer, and put a little more pressue on >the >> > >U.N. >> > >> >> that >> > >> >> > >> >> >eventually >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> the U.N. would have gotten more behind it. I think >> GWB >> > >> & co >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> >actually >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>*didn't >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> want* the U.N. behind them, because by going alone >> they >> > >> >could >> > >> >> > be >> > >> >> > >> in >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>charge, >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> and that would give them more power politically as >> the >> > >> >> country >> > >> >> > >> was >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>restructured. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> That's my beleif anyhow. I felt that it was only a >> > >matter >> > >> >of >> > >> >> > >time >> > >> >> > >> >> >before >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> enough countries voted for it in the U.N. They >could >> > >only >> > >> >> > >> >> >procrastinate >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>for >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> so long. It was big news and the public was >watching. >> > A >> > >> >whole >> > >> >> > >swag >> > >> >> > >> >> of >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>countries >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> weren't saying "no" but were saying "wait just a >> little >> > >> >> more". >> > >> >> > >> Sure >> > >> >> > >> >> it >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >was >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> getting tiresome, but I think holding out would >have >> > >been >> > >> >> worth >> > >> >> > >> it. >> > >> >> > >> >> >The >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>way >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> it was handled it came across too much as if GWB >was >> > >just >> > >> >> hell >> > >> >> > >> bent >> > >> >> > >> >> on >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >war >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> for oil, which I think is true. Holding out a >little >> > >longer >> > >> >> > >would >> > >> >> > >> >> have >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>made >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> a big difference to the opinions of many IMO, >whether >> > >the >> > >> >> U.N. >> > >> >> > >> >> >actually >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>ended >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> up behind it or not. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Anyway, the whole thing is screwed. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> This London thing is screwed. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> And I forgot my lunch this morning. DOH! >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> And now we've got a political thread on the main >> group. >> > >> DOH >> > >> >> > >DOH!! >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Cheers, >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Kim. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote: >Grow up... it wasn't a joke. If we fight these groups in a >piecemeal fashion, then it'll go on forever. Same as if we had >invaded Japan to try & end the war vs. what we ended up doing. > >Oh, and BTW, I HAVE lived in Europe... and while I don't agree >very much with Deej's opinions on that topic, I've noticed that >you Euros have indeed gotten more & more cocky towards America >each year that you haven't had 10,000 Soviet tanks > **parked** **right** **here... thanks for the insightful input on the israel topic and the thoughts on force vs deescalation politics. no, wait... btw, that discussion is (or, since everybody avoids it, "would") even more interesting because each side also believes it was them who solved the cold war conflict (since you brought it up). was it ronald reagan? was it gorbatchov? or was it maybe the politics of ongoing dialogue from willy brandt in the 70s? was it a little of everything? or was it all obsolete and the only reason the cold war ended was because the communism as a whole failed? it could be an interesting discussion. at least more interesting than theorizing about whether "the euros got more cocky" or something. but to each his own. but in case im wrong and your would find it interesting too, heres again the first statement i made about israel and force vs deescalation, inspired by your "nuke islam cities" suggestions. "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote: >No, I'm not, but it made a lot of people think dinnit? Truly, >if we did that, I think it would only take about three cities' >worth before the Islams said "ENOUGH!"... give us a break! israel has been trying this method for quite a while, just on a smaller scale. did it reduce terror over there? you tell me. OTOH, there was this *one* time when they tried the deescalation method for a change. did it reduce terror? you bet it did. too bad that some extremist religious fanatic asshole shot the man that was brave enough to try this. theyve been back to business as usual ever since (and its not working like always)Go to http://tinyurl.com/73scq He's in pretty rough shape, and going through chemo. Heartbreaking. One of the good guys, and one of the true geniuses in the industry. pab "Enjoy every sandwich." -- Warren Zevon "Here at Microsoft, Quality is job, oh, I dunno, maybe 7 or 8?""Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42d6d181$1@linux... > > "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote: >>just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil >>(who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city >>for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so funny >>ha ha) - > > Grow up... it wasn't a joke. If we fight these groups in a > piecemeal fashion, then it'll go on forever. Same as if we had > invaded Japan to try & end the war vs. what we ended up doing. Well China agrees with you: http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c 8.html"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote: >btw, that discussion is (or, since everybody avoids it, "would") >even more interesting because each side also believes it was >them who solved the cold war conflict (since >you brought it up). > >was it ronald reagan? was it gorbatchov? or was it maybe the politics >of ongoing dialogue from willy brandt in the 70s? >was it a little of everything? or was it all obsolete and the >only reason the cold war ended was because the communism as a whole failed? Personally I think it was a combination of all those things. My point about the Soviet tanks was that - regardless of how the end of the Cold War came about - it was American forces sitting a few yards away from the East German tower in that picture which prevented said tanks from rolling through there on any given Sunday afternoon. Ever since you guys don't need us anymore, it's been pretty much: "Fuck the Americans". I think even you would admit that the place in that photo looks a helluva lot better now than it did then, doesn't it? You're welcome. I'll talk with you about Israel some other time. Neil"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote: >btw, that discussion is (or, since everybody avoids it, "would") >even more interesting because each side also believes it was >them who solved the cold war conflict (since >you brought it up). > >was it ronald reagan? was it gorbatchov? or was it maybe the politics >of ongoing dialogue from willy brandt in the 70s? >was it a little of everything? or was it all obsolete and the >only reason the cold war ended was because the communism as a whole failed? Personally I think it was a combination of all those things. My point about the Soviet tanks was that - regardless of how the end of the Cold War came about - it was American forces sitting a few yards away from the East German tower in that picture which prevented said tanks from rolling through there on any given Sunday afternoon. Ever since you guys don't need us anymore, it's been pretty much: "Fuck the Americans". I think even you would admit that the place in that photo looks a helluva lot better now than it did then, doesn't it? You're welcome. I'll talk with you about Israel some other time. Neilwow thats an amazing website too "Paul Braun" <cygnus_diespamdie@ctgonline.org> wrote in message news:42d6dc8e.30226974@218.214.23.222... > Go to http://tinyurl.com/73scq > > He's in pretty rough shape, and going through chemo. > > Heartbreaking. One of the good guys, and one of the true geniuses in > the industry. > > pab > > "Enjoy every sandwich." -- Warren Zevon > > "Here at Microsoft, Quality is job, oh, I dunno, maybe 7 or 8?""justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote: >Well China agrees with you: > http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c 8.html Well, of COURSE! What do you expect? You think someone's going to build some really cool blow-up-the-world sort of thingie & NOT want to use it? I think the thing that can best illustrate what happens when we mess around with weapons we can't control is this portion of a script from "South Park": ***begin paste*** Butters: Enough! Uh I grow weary of your foolishness. Professor Chaos cannot be stopped! Stan: Oh yeah?! Kenny! Use your ninja star! Kenny: (Yeah! Take this, Professor Chaos!) [shows off an eight-pointed shuriken] (Feel my wrath!) [unleashes the shuriken, and it strikes Butters in the eye. Butters' helmet flies off, revealing his mohawk and the shuriken embedded in the bloody left eye. The music abruptly stops and the boys are shown in regular form. Butters looks at the boys and bawls] Cartman: Oh, fuck dude! Stan: [he and Kyle rush over to Butters] It's Butters. Oh my God! [the boys gather round Butters] Oh, dude! It's stuck in his eye! Kyle: What the hell did you do that for, Kenny?! Kenny: (I just threw it like Stan asked me.) Butters: It hurts! It hurts! [continues bawling] Kyle: Oh man! We are in serious trouble! Stan: [tries to soothe Butters] Ssh sshhhh. It's okay, Butters. Calm down. It's not that bad, really. Butters: [trying to catch his breath] But I... But I... But I can't see nothin'. I gotta go to the hospitalll!! [Stan looks around nervously, with gritted teeth] Stan: Okay okay, calm down, Butters! It'll be okay! [Butters composes himself and sobs softly, looking around from time to time for any sign of help] Cartman: Guys, meeting over here for a second? [the boys move off and huddle] All right you guys, we need to stay calm and just do the right thing. We have to kill Butters and bury him in Kyle's backyard. Stan: Dude, shut up! Kyle: I agree with Cartman! Stan: What?? Kyle: You don't understand what my mom will do to me if she finds out I was playing with weapons! [a closeup of the shuriken lodged in Butters' left eye, moments later. Some pliers clamp on to it and the camera pulls back. Stan is holding the pliers and he tugs gently at the shuriken. Butters sits on a tree stump] Stan: Just stay still, Butters. Butters: [Stan tugs again] Hwa. [Stan tugs harder] Hwa! [Stan tugs even harder] Hwaaaaa! Kyle: Stop dude! You're gonna scramble his brain! Cartman: Go ahead and scramble it, then he won't remember it was us. Butters: You guys can't fix my eyeball! You have to take me to the hospital! [whimpers] Kyle: If we take him to the hospital, they're gonna find out what happened. Stan: God-damnit! Kyle: [moves off] God? Please, if you get me out of this, I swear, I will never play with weapons ever again. Cartman: [approaches] Don't be so quick to throw off your ninja responsibility, Kyle. [to the huddle] Now, come on guys, sure, it's easy to be a ninja when everything's going your way, but it's times like these, when the chips are down, that a ninja shows his true character. Butters: Whoa, I'm getting woozy. Cartman: Shut up, Butters. [to the other boys] Now, there's a way out of this. We just have to use our... ninja reasoning. [puts his fingertipss to his temples. Kenny touches his right temple, Stan his chin] Stan: We... need a doctor... But we can't go to the hospital. Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait what about the veterinarian? Cartman: Dr. Shafley? Stan: He's really old and and goin blind. Cartman: So if we make Butters up to look like a dog,... **end paste** :D"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42d6e653$1@linux... > > "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote: > >>Well China agrees with you: >> http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c 8.html > > > Well, of COURSE! What do you expect? You think someone's going > to build some really cool blow-up-the-world sort of thingie & > NOT want to use it? > > I think the thing that can best illustrate what happens when we > mess around with weapons we can't control is this portion of a > script from "South Park": Im not about to read that crap... enjoy.We've eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and now we're using the Knowledge to create Nuclear Weapons and inject human stem cells into monkeys. It will be no surprise when we get kicked out of our Garden of Eden by God or Nature."derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote: >just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil >(who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city >for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so funny >ha ha) - israel is a prime example where you can compare the >different concepts of brute force versus deescalation. >brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a >conflict ending concept. Derek, I have to call you on this statement. You call nuking cities and Israel both examples of brute force. This is irrational, and I am surprised that you said it. Given what they could do, Israel has shown amazing restraint in dealing with terrorism. They could have turned the palestinians into green glass by now, and instead have given them 95% of everything that they asked for in the negotiations under Clinton. The reason Clinton failed at making peace was not brutality, nor warlikeness, it was the palestianian and arab's clear intent to wipe out israel and kill every single israeli. If the palestinians want peace, they could have it at any time, but they do not, despite the fact that palestianians in Israel have more rights, more income, more personal dignity than they do in any other country in the middle east. It is hate, pure and simple. If that hate and brutality was equal on the Israeli and US side, you would have seen Damascus, Tehran, and Baghad turned into radioactive holes in the ground by now, and a clear threat of more should any more terrorist acts be committed. As Neil says, this is not a joke, and remains an option should we be placed under serious, sustained attack. I pray to God that it does not come to that, but we will not live under a Mullah. Will you? How in hell do you de-escalate when dealing with 10th century lunatics who will kill children to get on the news? Well you don't, and even the best and brightest have failed at it. You don't negotiate. You kill them. then you kill those other ones, and them, and those guys too, and you do it, as carefully as possible, until the survivors want peace. If you say this doesn't work, you are not being honest. If you try to negotiate with terrorists you are a fool. If you try to understand their acts, you tilt on the edge of moral bankrupty. Peace starts with the desire for peace on both sides. DC"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote: >Personally I think it was a combination of all those things. interesting. too bad you dont follow up on this. > Ever since you guys don't need us anymore, >it's been pretty much: "Fuck the Americans". a convenient fantasy, but of course completely wrong. germany has followed US politics almost 100% until the second iraq war. as we speak, germany is among the biggest supporters of your forces in afghanistan. first iraq war, serbien, bosnien, albanien (dont know the english term for these nations), you name it, germany was there, usually sending lots of its ridiculous, mostly defensive military forces, but also being the biggest payer of all supporters to make up for that. this support, as well as public opinion on the US as a whole, has been more or less constant all these years. the shift (both in politics as well as in public opinion) is directly connected to the second iraq war. you can search and find a lot of polls about that on www.spiegel.de (unfortunately in german, but i guess you could also google for english versions of such polls in the unlikely case that youd really be interested and didnt just want to rant a bit) of course you can ignore those numbers, im sure its easier that way. but accurate it is not, not by the slightest. the public opinion in germany about the US is definetly on an all time low right now, that is true (i find that pretty ridiculous btw, because the distrust is mostly directed at george bush, thus a general distrust towards americans is as if all americans were george bush, which last time i checked they were not :-) before bush started to talk about a second iraq war though, the public opinion about the US was on an all time high, and the loyalty was so big that unlike the other times, supporting the US in afghanistan as a reaction to 911 wasnt debated at all - that was pretty exceptional, cause normally thats the way it goes in pacifistic cuddle-germany (TM). to ignore a logical connection with the second iraq war but draw a connection 16 years into the past is pretty artificial. of course neither i nor all numbers and public opinion polls in the world will change your opinion about this. but since you guys dig non-non-judgmentalism so much, i will make it a point to publicly call it "more bullshit" here for you. in my humble i-happen-to-live-in-the-place-you-talk-about-opinion of course. >You're welcome. see, thats the interesting discussion about "who or what political concept ended the cold war" i talked about. could have been nice. of course, by saying "youre welcome", youre taking the credit, thus i assume your opinion on this is that it was YOU, neil aka the united states of america, that ended the cold war. you said something different in the beginning of your post, but whatever. >I'll talk with you about Israel some other time. funny how i saw that one coming... have a nice day.No.........that's not what I said and you're obviously not getting this at all. Let's return to the original disagreement about stereotypes. Like it or not, they exist. they are the detrius of our respective cultural heritage. Whether this is considered to be good or bad is not even an issue. It just is reality. I'kll guarantee you that the French have cultural differences and that b\ased on those differences, certain assumptions can be made. Are you denying this? I think they are pretty damned handy as I would certainly like to know a bit about the cultural background of person if he or she is Jewish or Muslim and I'm planning a dinner party with suckling pig as the main course. As for your apparent unwillingness to accept what I have seen with my own eyes after it was pointed out to me by a bunch of people who had absolutely no preconceptions about the cultural proclivities of these individuals who happened to be Euopeans and Americans all I can say is believe what you want. "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6d324@linux... > > or, in short: "i know europe - cause i know some europeans > that live here in the US". > > that pretty much stands nicely by itself. > > > > > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > >Well........you may assume that my impressions of Europe are wrong, but > >these impressions were of Europeans who were *from Europe*"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote: > >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote: >>Personally I think it was a combination of all those things. > > >interesting. too bad you dont follow up on this. I will, don't have time to get into long posts right now - just little snippets here & there as I do other stuff - but I agree with you that it was not just one of those factors, but all of them combined to one degree or another. >see, thats the interesting discussion about "who or what >political concept ended the cold war" i talked about. >could have been nice. of course, by saying "youre welcome", >youre taking the credit, thus i assume your opinion on this >is that it was YOU, neil aka the united states of america, >that ended the cold war. >you said something different in the beginning of your post, >but whatever. I (on behalf of all the American forces who were over there at the time) am simply taking credit for PREVENTING ALL THOSE GODDAMN T-72's from coming across before the Cold War ended... as I said... and as you chose to ignore. >>I'll talk with you about Israel some other time. > > >funny how i saw that one coming... Derek: "Hello, you've reached Derek the Psychic - I know what you're thinking before you even think it, how may I help you?" Caller: "If you know what I'm thinking, why do you need to ask how you may help me?""justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote: > >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42d6e653$1@linux... >> >> "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote: >> >>>Well China agrees with you: >>> http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c 8.html >> >> >> Well, of COURSE! What do you expect? You think someone's going >> to build some really cool blow-up-the-world sort of thingie & >> NOT want to use it? >> >> I think the thing that can best illustrate what happens when we >> mess around with weapons we can't control is this portion of a >> script from "South Park": > >Im not about to read that crap... enjoy. Crap? For a downtrodden-defending, blunt-smoking, ethnic- diversity-supporting liberal like yourself, that's kind of an elitist comment, don't you think?"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42d6f064$1@linux... > > "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote: >> >>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42d6e653$1@linux... >>> >>> "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote: >>> >>>>Well China agrees with you: >>>> http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c 8.html >>> >>> >>> Well, of COURSE! What do you expect? You think someone's going >>> to build some really cool blow-up-the-world sort of thingie & >>> NOT want to use it? >>> >>> I think the thing that can best illustrate what happens when we >>> mess around with weapons we can't control is this portion of a >>> script from "South Park": >> >>Im not about to read that crap... enjoy. > > Crap? For a downtrodden-defending, blunt-smoking, ethnic- > diversity-supporting liberal like yourself, that's kind of an > elitist comment, don't you think? Wow, nice string of names dude.... thats how you conduct discourse? Asshole.your statement completely ignores my very point, the early nineties, mr. rabin, the one point in history where they were as close to solving the conflict as they were never before and after. arafat actually had power because he could show his people results, so he could actually effectively prevent terror, and hear hear, terror was on a all time low. but thats not worth mentioning with even one single word huh? your basically ignoring my very point. q.e.d. oh, and about the option to just nuke the palestinans to hell, well im sure the jewish seddlers would have been very amused, and of course isreal wouldnt mind poisoning their own country by dropping a couple of nukes in the direct neighbourhood of their sacred city and land. thats about as realistic as milwaukee reserving the right to nuke chicago in case of ongoing disagreement. very good. im sure chicago is very thankful that they didnt do it to this day. oh, and about the "will you live under a mullah", well, of course not. youre missing the point. we all have the same goals. we only disagree about what is the best path to these goals. its a shame that there seems to be NO way at all to have a basic discussion about the possible different paths to this goal and it all automatically leads to the auto-anti-liberal-blah routine. here i am, writing about how i do NOT think that george bush is the devil, how i do believe we all have the same goals, how i am only interested in a general force vs deescalation discussion again and again, starting with the example of mr. rabin, the only man known to me that ever managed to *reduce terror* in israel by a significant amount. i find that really interesting. and until now, not ONE SINGLE WORD about that in all responses. NOT ONE. instead i get some "you hate americans so much" type of antiliberal standard blah blah. its ridiculous, really. but then, i can take that as an answer just as well. "DC" <dcicchetti@urs2.net> wrote: > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote: > >>just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil >>(who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city >>for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so funny >>ha ha) - israel is a prime example where you can compare the >>different concepts of brute force versus deescalation. >>brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a >>conflict ending concept. > > >Derek, I have to call you on this statement. You call nuking cities >and Israel both examples of brute force. This is irrational, and I >am surprised that you said it. > >Given what they could do, Israel has shown amazing restraint in >dealing with terrorism. They could have turned the palestinians >into green glass by now, and instead have given them 95% of >everything that they asked for in the negotiations under Clinton. > >The reason Clinton failed at making peace was not brutality, nor >warlikeness, it was the palestianian and arab's clear intent to wipe >out israel and kill every single israeli. > >If the palestinians want peace, they could have it at any time, but >they do not, despite the fact that palestianians in Israel have more >rights, more income, more personal dignity than they do in any >other country in the middle east. It is hate, pure and simple. > >If that hate and brutality was equal on the Israeli and US side, >you would have seen Damascus, Tehran, and Baghad turned into >radioactive holes in the ground by now, and a clear threat of more >should any more terrorist acts be committed. As Neil says, this >is not a joke, and remains an option should we be placed under >serious, sustained attack. I pray to God that it does not come to >that, but we will not live under a Mullah. Will you? > >How in hell do you de-escalate when dealing with 10th century >lunatics who will kill children to get on the news? Well you don't, >and even the best and brightest have failed at it. > >You don't negotiate. You kill them. then you kill those other ones, >and them, and those guys too, and you do it, as carefully as >possible, until the survivors want peace. > >If you say this doesn't work, you are not being honest. If you try to >negotiate with terrorists you are a fool. If you try to understand >their acts, you tilt on the edge of moral bankrupty. > >Peace starts with the desire for peace on both sides. > >DC >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030201060209090509080105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit justcron wrote: >Im not sure how valid this test is, but if you're willing to answer a few >questions.... > >http://politicalcompass.org > >I placed right near Ghandi and Nelson Mandela, almost dead center on the >social scale and to the left on the economic scale > > > > Well, a day late..... looks like I'm Nelson Mandella..... Mike --------------030201060209090509080105 Content-Type: image/gif; name="cross.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="cross.gif" R0lGODlhFQAVAOcAAAAAAAEBAQICAgMDAwQEBAUFBQYGBgcHBwgICAkJCQoK CgsLCwwMDA0N DQ4ODg8PDxAQEBERERISEhMTExQUFBUVFRYWFhcXFxgYGBkZGRoaGhsbGxwc HB0dHR4eHh8f HyAgICEhISIiIiMjIyQkJCUlJSYmJicnJygoKCkpKSoqKisrKywsLC0tLS4u Li8vLzAwMDEx MTIyMjMzMzQ0NDU1NTY2Njc3Nzg4ODk5OTo6Ojs7Ozw8PD09PT4+Pj8/P0BA QEFBQUJCQkND Q0REREVFRUZGRkdHR0hISElJSUpKSktLS0xMTE1NTU5OTk9PT1BQUFFRUVJS UlNTU1RUVFVV VVZWVldXV1hYWFlZWVpaWltbW1xcXF1dXV5eXl9fX2BgYGFhYWJiYmNjY2Rk ZGVlZWZmZmdn Z2hoaGlpaWpqamtra2xsbG1tbW5ubm9vb3BwcHFxcXJycnNzc3R0dHV1dXZ2 dnd3d3h4eHl5 eXp6ent7e3x8fH19fX5+fn9/f4CAgIGBgYKCgoODg4SEhIWFhYaGhoeHh4iI iImJiYqKiouL i4yMjI2NjY6Ojo+Pj5CQkJGRkZKSkpOTk5SUlJWVlZaWlpeXl5iYmJmZmZqa mpubm5ycnJ2d nZ6enp+fn6CgoKGhoaKioqOjo6SkpKWlpaampqenp6ioqKmpqaqqqqurq6ys rK2tra6urq+v r7CwsLGxsbKysrOzs7S0tLW1tba2tre3t7i4uLm5ubq6uru7u7y8vL29vb6+ vr+/v8DAwMHB wcLCwsPDw8TExMXFxcbGxsfHx8jIyMnJycrKysvLy8zMzM3Nzc7Ozs/Pz9DQ 0NHR0dLS0tPT 09TU1NXV1dbW1tfX19jY2NnZ2dra2tvb29zc3N3d3d7e3t/f3+Dg4OHh4eLi 4uPj4+Tk5OXl 5ebm5ufn5+jo6Onp6erq6uvr6+zs7O3t7e7u7u/v7/Dw8PHx8fLy8vPz8/T0 9PX19fb29vf3 9/j4+Pn5+fr6+vv7+/z8/P39/f7+/v///yH+FUNyZWF0ZWQgd2l0aCBUaGUg R0lNUAAsAAAA ABUAFQAACEQA/wkcSBAAwYMIDxpMyLBgw4f/FkJMKHGiQosUMSKsqDFiR4cN AYgcSbKkyYcc NabEuNJiy4kvIcZE+XHgzJA1BcYMCAA7 --------------030201060209090509080105--You mean there's a Garden of Eden around here somewhere? Don "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote in message news:42d6eab0@linux... > We've eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and now we're using the Knowledge > to create Nuclear Weapons and inject human stem cells into monkeys. It > will be no surprise when we get kicked out of our Garden of Eden by God or > Nature. >still is... for now. "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote in message news:42d6f467@linux... > You mean there's a Garden of Eden around here somewhere? > > Don > > "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote in message > news:42d6eab0@linux... >> We've eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and now we're using the Knowledge >> to create Nuclear Weapons and inject human stem cells into monkeys. It >> will be no surprise when we get kicked out of our Garden of Eden by God >> or Nature. >> > >"justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote: > >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42d6f064$1@linux... >> >> "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote: >>> >>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42d6e653$1@linux... >>>> >>>> "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote: >>>> >>>>>Well China agrees with you: >>>>> http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c 8.html >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, of COURSE! What do you expect? You think someone's going >>>> to build some really cool blow-up-the-world sort of thingie & >>>> NOT want to use it? >>>> >>>> I think the thing that can best illustrate what happens when we >>>> mess around with weapons we can't control is this portion of a >>>> script from "South Park": >>> >>>Im not about to read that crap... enjoy. >> >> Crap? For a downtrodden-defending, blunt-smoking, ethnic- >> diversity-supporting liberal like yourself, that's kind of an >> elitist comment, don't you think? > >Wow, nice string of names dude.... thats how you conduct discourse? > >Asshole. Errmmmm... those weren't cut-downs. Bostonian. (though THAT might be considered one LOL)(sigh)............and furthermore, whether you want it to be about Iraq........everything is about Iraq.........and was for a long time before we took Sadaam out if the premise of the United Nations being a viable entity has any validity at all. I appreciate that Germany supported the US during the time that Bill Clinton was sitting on his ass allowing us to be dealt under the table by the French, Russians and the UN bureaucrats. Germany did support France when it insisted it would block US efforts to use force to disarm Iraq. The whole ridiculous premise of this was that somehow the inspectors would be effective when for 10 years Iraq had been obstructing them. Villepin actually said, and I quote......."It is important that Europe speaks on this issue with a single voice." "We are mobilized; we believe war can be avoided." .......while France was buying Iraqi oil under the table. Gerhard Shroeder found the antiwar line to be a convenient reelection tool which tells me a lot. His words of support for America were "Do not expect that Germany will agree to a resolution that legitimizes war" while conveniently forgetting that the war, which Germany legitimized by virtue of it's participation in 1991 had not ended as long as Sadaam was in violation of the UN sanctions. Regards, Doug "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message news:42d6ed96@linux... > No.........that's not what I said and you're obviously not getting this at > all. Let's return to the original disagreement about stereotypes. Like it or > not, they exist. they are the detrius of our respective cultural heritage. > Whether this is considered to be good or bad is not even an issue. It just > is reality. I'kll guarantee you that the French have cultural differences > and that b\ased on those differences, certain assumptions can be made. Are > you denying this? > > I think they are pretty damned handy as I would certainly like to know a bit > about the cultural background of person if he or she is Jewish or Muslim and > I'm planning a dinner party with suckling pig as the main course. > > As for your apparent unwillingness to accept what I have seen with my own > eyes after it was pointed out to me by a bunch of people who had absolutely > no preconceptions about the cultural proclivities of these individuals who > happened to be Euopeans and Americans all I can say is believe what you > want. > > > > > > > > "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6d324@linux... > > > > or, in short: "i know europe - cause i know some europeans > > that live here in the US". > > > > that pretty much stands nicely by itself. > > > > > > > > > > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > > >Well........you may assume that my impressions of Europe are wrong, but > > >these impressions were of Europeans who were *from Europe* > >nah, i didnt ignore it. just as you i said that i believe that its a little of everything. of course that includes, on behalf of all american forces, you. thank you neil. your partially responsible for the end of the cold war. since i, on behalf of the deescalation politics of willy brandt, am also responsible and the US also wanted the cold war to end, will you thank me too now? as to the rest, whats there to say when you completely ignore all of my points... - about germany and the possibility that it might NOT have been a case of complete sucky ungratefulness but a case of strong disagreement about the second iraq war (even more likely since germany wasnt exactly the only nation that didnt agree)? nothing. - the stuff i say that im interested in instead of the useless standard bullshit? israel, rabin anyone? anyone care to loose a word about the only man that ever effectively reduced terror in israel? nada. instead, theres this: "Neil" <>Derek: "Hello, you've reached Derek the Psychic - I know what >you're thinking before you even think it, how may I help you?" >Caller: "If you know what I'm thinking, why do you need to ask >how you may help me?" hahaha. i didnt get it, but im sure it was funny. funny is good. thanks."derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote: >your statement completely ignores my very point, the >early nineties, mr. rabin, the one point in history >where they were as close to solving the conflict as they were >never before and after. arafat actually had power because he could >show his people results, so he could actually effectively >prevent terror, and hear hear, terror was on a all time low. right Derek. Everyone misses the point except you... The only problem with your theory is the fact that Arafat was one of the chief terrorists, utterly corrupt, and a major part of the problem. What was wrong, exactly with the plan proposed by Clinton? >oh, and about the option to just nuke the palestinans to hell, >well im sure the jewish seddlers would have been very amused, >and of course isreal wouldnt mind poisoning their own country >by dropping a couple of nukes in the direct neighbourhood >of their sacred city and land. Clever words, but it is possible to expel them before nuking them isn't it? Seems do-able. You send them all to Syria, and nuke the whole lot of them. The fact is, they did not, and neither did we, yet to you it is all the same "brutality". It is not. Can you agree? What would the ghouls and head-choppers do with our weapons? What would the palestinians do with them? Why is there no peace? Be honest. >oh, and about the "will you live under a mullah", well, of course >not. What is your plan to avoid this? >youre missing the point. we all have the same goals. >we only disagree about what is the best path to these goals. >its a shame that there seems to be NO way at all to >have a basic discussion about the possible >different paths to this goal and it all automatically >leads to the auto-anti-liberal-blah routine. I don't care about liberals or conservatives for that matter. Is it possible that your way has been tried and failed? That when the ghouls kill innocent people that they must be stopped? Seems possible to me. I'd love to hear your plan of course. >here i am, >writing about how i do NOT think that george bush is >the devil, how i do believe we all have the same goals, >how i am only interested in a general force vs deescalation >discussion again and again, starting with the example of mr. rabin, >the only man known to me that ever managed to *reduce >terror* in israel by a significant amount. i find that >really interesting. and until now, not ONE SINGLE WORD >about that in all responses. NOT ONE. The people who think bush is the devil are stupid, so it buys you little credit to not be one of them. Ok, so what were the substantive differences between what Rabin was offering, and what Clinton brokered? Were they not nearly identical? Doesn't your point rely on Arafat not being a terrorist himself? Evidence? >instead i get some "you hate americans so much" type >of antiliberal standard blah blah. its ridiculous, really. Never said that. I always approach europeans with an open mind, hoping to find a new perspective. I had many german friends in college and took german for a year. I am inclined to listen and like europeans as long as they are willing to understand our side. You will have your own opportunity to show your more enlightened solutions, I am sure. This is likely to get worse before it gets better. Here is why appeasement is more likely to end in nuclear war than is the war on terror. Euros in particular, because war has become unthinkable to them, are more likely to wait too long to respond, and then find themselves in such desperate conditions, tactically, that there are no other options but massive destruction. Fight them there, or fight them here. You pick, but it can happen to you too. So tell me, what part of Rabin's plans would you use today to de-escalate? DC"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6f7ed$1@linux... > "Neil" <>Derek: "Hello, you've reached Derek the Psychic - I know what >>you're thinking before you even think it, how may I help you?" >>Caller: "If you know what I'm thinking, why do you need to ask >>how you may help me?" > > > hahaha. i didnt get it, but im sure it was funny. funny is good. thanks. yah... Neil is a regular comedian...This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---=_linux42d6f95c Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Send me your email address, and I'll get back with you. DC So you like the 'Ooo huh? Here's a rig for you! "Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote: >In a whole new world, brotha.... I think I am waiting on the wrong side of >Styx some days.. drop me an e, we'll catch up. Anyway, funny you should >mention the who and be talking about guitars. We strike the same chord on >that one (hey, I'm a pun-nee guy), I've been getting back into playing live >guitar again here recently and one of our new additions will be Who Are You. >That pick guard is pretty inspiring, I may have to get something custom and >cool like that. Unfortunately it won't work on my main axe, it's a modified >RG570 - no guard. 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