DO NOT BUY A BEHRINGER BCF2000...EVIL!!!! EVIL!!!!!
> >> different concepts of brute force versus deescalation. > >> brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a > >> conflict ending concept. deescalation had about 5 years > >> (you know
Re: DO NOT BUY A BEHRINGER BCF2000...EVIL!!!! EVIL!!!!!
, until that religious dumbass shot rabin). > >> which concept came closer to actual peace? you tell me. > >> > >> im much more interested in that basic discussion of concepts > >> than in dealing stereotype bullshit like the "selfish > >> socialist europe" or the equally stupid speculation about > >> whether mr. bush's motivation is a selfish one or a selfless act > >> (i would guess its a typical case of a mixture). > >> > >> im too old for that BS. and you should be too. honestly. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <<a href="mailto:animix_spamless_&
; >> >I > >> >> had tried to cultivate during this time was in the crapper anyway. > I > >> >didn't > >> >> want to be a musician any more. I was not, however, burned out on my > >> >> countercultural beliefs. I was *into it* before it was considered to > be > >> >> *cool*, at least in Texas. > >> >> > >> >> There was this war going on and lots of my friends were headed over > >there. > >> >> This country was being torn apart by dissention and I became more and > >> more > >> >> involved in the anti-war movement and the increasingly emerging > >> >philosophy > >> >> of non-judgmentalism and defiance of the rule of law/politial > >anarchism. > >> >> > >> >> While I was in school, I ran into a few old acquaintances. They were > >the > >> >> rich children of some of the people my dad had been doing business > with > >> in > >> >> Mexico. They were going to universtity in the states and were, like > me, > >> >> angry, into the counterculture and we renewed our friendships. I > >started > >> >> going down to Mexico with them on school holidays and we would travel > >> to > >> >
> places which were pretty unbelievable. Like paradises which were mostly > >> >> untouched by human beings (except of course, the local Indians, who > >were > >> >not > >> >> really considered to be human by anyone, including these *enlightened* > >> >young > >> >> Mexican revolutionaries-the Indians weren't cool. They were > >&
gt; >traditionalists > >> >> and not into drugs, socialism and free love). A lot of the friends > of > >> my > >> >> Mexican friends were going to European universities and I met quite > a > >> few > >> >of > >> >> them and quite a few of their european friends who were my age and > >would > >> >> travel with them on holiday. We became well acquainted and we shared > a > >> lot > >> >> in common with our political philosophies which were becoming > >increasing > >> >> leftist-leaning. It is ironic that the children of priviledge were > the > >> >ones > >> >> who most despised the systems that allowed them those priviledges. > >> >> > >> >> In early 1970 I move
d to Los Angeles because I wanted to get away from > >> >> Texas, go to school out there and be a part of the California scene. > My > >> >> uncle was a business partner with a big television star from Texas, > had > >> a > >> >> big house and invited me to live with them while I established myself. > >> >> During the time I was there, I met quite a few of the folks in the > film > >> >and > >> >> music industry and their kids. > >> >> Some of these kids are now known as part of the > >> >> *Hollywood elite* and are very active and outspoken > >> >> members of the leftist political scene in this country. > >> >> I also started getting a sense of discomfort with the drug culture >
>that > >> >was > >> >> going on, but was still cool because it was so integrated with the > rest > >> of > >> >> the anarchistic counter culture. This is where my beliefs in > >> >> non-judgementalism were beginning to be severely challenged. The > >decadence > >> >> was so unbelievable that it was obviously hurting people, but it wasn't > >> >cool > >> >> to talk about it. A bunch of the kids I was hanging out with knew some > >> >> people that called themselves *The Family*. I even went out to the > >ranch > >> >> where some of were still living while Charles Manson, their leader, > was > >> in > >> >> jail on a multiple murder charges and I partied with them. One of my > >> >cousins > >> >> had dated one of them, a guy from McKinney Texas named Tex Watson who > >> had > >> >> murdered people. There were some of the wierdest, scariest people you > >> can > >> >> imagine but even despite stuff like this, no one in the Hollywood > >> >> *co
unterculture* was willing to believe that some aspects of their > >> >lifestyle > >> >> might not be so great. Non-judgmentalism was sooooooo *uncool*. > >> >> > >> >> I continued to participate as as activist in all of the *causes du > >jour* > >> I > >> >> supported gay rights and the *women's movement* (I loved the moving > >women) > >> >> and celebrated when birth control pills became available and abortions > >> >> became legal. I was active in the democratic party, watched as the > >various > >> >> power brokers emerged in that party to *take care of* the Afro American > >> >> citizens > >> >> and Mexican American farm workers. I had been gassed in anti-war > >protests > >> >> and had my feet firmly planted in the *hate America* movement. > >> >> > >> >> Anyway, by 1973 I had graduated from my college studies with a major > >> >degree > >> >> in political science with minor studies in psychology and economics. > >This > >> >> liberal arts education didn't really qualify me for any kind of career > >> >path > >> >> but I was young, invincible, resourceful and I figured if I knew my > >way > >> >> around these things, I could pretty much make my way in the world. > >> >> > >> >> The first thing I did was to take some time and go back down to Mexico. > >> I > >> >> didn't want to be part of America anymore and I had seen a place during > >> my > >> >> travels down there where I thought I might be happy. It was a deserted > >> >place > >> >> with a *feeling* about it. I can't describe it, but others who I have > >> met > >> >> there who are more travelled than I am tell me they feel the same kind > >> of >
>> >> *energy* there that they have felt in places like Jerusalem, Katmandhu, > >> >> Mecca and other locations which are considered to be religious > >> >destinations. > >> >> In 1973, it was just a deserted beach with a little store owned by > a > >> >Zapotec > >> >> Indian named Ramon Aguilar Villalobos and this exended family, two > of > >> >which > >> >> were his in-laws, Manuel and Maria who basically founded this small > >> >village > >> >> back in the early 20th century and were very old. I spent a good part > >> of > >> >my > >> >> life in this place and lived with this family during those times from > >> 1973 > >> >> until 1990. Unfortunately, this place is nothing like it used to be > and > >> >now > >> >> even has websites dedicated to it, but I guess that's part of the story > >> >> about thie place. > >> >> I am going to post a link to this place so that you can see it. You > may > >> >have > >> >> been there or know people who have. There is more to this story but > I > >> have > >> >> work to do today so I will stop now and continue later when I have > the > >> >time. > >> >> This story actually does lead somewhere that is relevant to this > >> >> conversation. Sorry it has been so long but you have asked me a > >question > >> >> that is valid, but not easily answered, so I'll continue later if you > >> are > >> >> interested. Though I haven't been there for a while, this was my home > >> and > >> >is > >> >> still my second home- > >> >> > >> >> I know a lot of the people in these pictures. I watched them grow up > >and > >> >> taught a few of them how to swim and catch fish. the beautiful young > >> >woman, > >> >> Claudia is the > >> >> niece of my friend Ramon. The two people, John and Maria were guests > at > >> my > >> >> home in Austin after one of my trips to Zipolite and we watched the > >events > >> >> unfold at Tienamen Square on television. They were having some bad > drug > >> >> problems even then. They are both kind, intelligent victims of the > >social > >> >> experiment that is > >> >> happening there. > >> >> > >> >> http://www.greatvavavoom.com/stories/storyReader$56 > >> >> > >> >> This link is also descriptive of how this place has evolved and what > >> the > >> >> place was like the last time I
was there. > >> >> > >> >> http://community-2.webtv.net/ivanjay/IVANJSNAVELYHOMEPORT/ > >> >> > >> >> more to come...... > >> >> > >> >> Regards, > >> >> > >> >> Doug > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d45df1@linux... > >> >> > > >> >> > maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint, > >> >> > but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you. > >> >> > reading the stereotype BS you spread, im frankly shocked, > >> >> > thats pretty much all there is to it. i definetly dont recognize > you. > >> >> > > >> >> > maybe its because im a european hypocrite sitting on my ass or > >> >something. > >> >> > cause thats the way we are, we "euros", right? > >> >> > > >> >> > *shakes head in disbelief* > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > >> >> > >Yes I do. Unfortunately, we apparently understand each other. > >> >> > > > >> >> > >Regards, > >> >> > > > >> >> > >DJ > >> >> > > > >> >> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message > >> >news:42d45332$1@linux... > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> you know how i meant it. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> whatever. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > >> >> > >> >It makes me sad too Derek. If the governments of Europe would > >learn > >> >> from > >> >> > >> the > >> >> > >> >mistakes of the past, it would make me less sad. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message > >> >> news:42d436c1$1@linux... > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> doug, > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> your fuck
ed up picture of europe truly makes me sad. > >> >> > >> >> youve come a long way, really. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> regards, > >> >> > >> >> derek > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war/wmd/fuel-air-explo sion/ > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >Maybe this??? Lots less radioactivity.........but > >> >> > >seriously............. > >> >> > >> >> >you're right that Muslims are going to need to get real > >proactive > >> >> > with > >> >> > >> >their > >> >> > >> >> >own. There's some pretty Hitlerian dialog going on in Holland > >> >these > >> >> > >days > >> >> > >> >> >about how to clean up the *Islamic problem*. It's funny about > >> how > >> >> > the > >> >> > >> >Euro's > >> >> > >> >> >whine and bitch about how unfair and awful war is, then when > >> the > >> >> chips > >> >> > >> >are > >> >> > >> >> >down.......bingo!!!!!! let's sit around on our collective > >asses > >> >and > >> >> > >watch > >> >> > >> >> >the Serbs dio a little ethnic housekeeping........oh shit!!!! > >> >> > >> >.......those > >> >> > >> >> >meddling Americans came along and saved the Muslims and > >spoiled > >> >all > >> >> > >our > >> >> > >> >> >fun.............but hell, let's go visit our buddy Sadaam > and > >> >pick > >> >> > up > >> >> > >> a > >> >> > >> >> few > >> >> > >> >> >million barrells of oil while we're there. Those kids who > are > >> >dying > >> >> > of > >> >> > >> >> >starvation and disease due to our turning a blind eye to his > >> >> > >violations > >> >> > >> >> of > >> >> > >> >> >UN sanctions won't care. Hell, they're too busy swatting the > >> >flies > >> >> > off > >> >> > >> >their > >> >> > >> >> >festering wounds and running to the crapper with > >> >> disentery.........and > >> >> > >> >just > >> >> > >> >> >maybe while we're there we get lucky in a rape room. Whaddaya > >> say > >> >> > >guys? > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >The hypocracy is just unbelievable. > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message > >news:42cf19b3$1@linux... > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Your whole line of thought, if correct - especially your > 3rd > >> & > >> >> > >> >> >> 4th paragraphs - would mean that Bush is one of the most > >evil > >> >> > >> >> >> sonsofbeeatches ever to walk the face of the earth. I find > >> it > >> >> > >> >> >> hard to believe that in ANY free society, that could be &
gt; the > >> >> > >> >> >> case. Dictatorships, yeah, free societies, nah. > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Ya know, as a side thought, for awhile there, I was really > >> >> > >> >> >> starting to feel like we made a mistake by going into > >Iraq... > >> >> > >> >> >> that we were hornswaggled, as they say - conned by the > >Iraqi's > >> >> > >> >> >> who are NOW in power, and who had their own agenda against > >> >> > >> >> >> Saddam. Now, with these latest bombings, I'm back to being > >> >> > >> >> >> all about retribution, since massive force is the only thing > >> >> > >> >> >> these extremists seem to understand - or if they don't > >> >> > >> >> >> understand it, at least we'll lower their numbers & limit > >their > >> >> > >> >> >> capabilities by that method. So I'm now thinking that a > good > >> >> > >> >> >> position would be: for every terrorist attack that occurs > >> >> > >> >> >> against us or one of our allies, we should nuke an Islamic > >> >city. > >> >> > >> >> >> One bomb - done. Next? Oh you want to bomb another embassy? > >> OK, > >> >> > >> >> >> fine, there goes another Islamic city... bigger bomb this > >time. > >> >> > >> >> >> Trust me, that kind of shit wouldn't last too long before > we > >> >> > >> >> >> had peace on earth & goodwill towards all men for a good > >long > >> >> > >> >> >> time. > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Neil > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Neil > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> "Mike Audet" <mike@mike......com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >Hi Mr. Simplicity, > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >Unfortunately, Iraq is very much about oil for the US - > big > >> US > >> >> > oil > >> >> > >> >> >companies. > >> >> > >> >> >> > And, leaving Iraqi oil in the ground, or burning it in > >bombed > >> >> > >> >pipelines > >> >> > >> >> >> >is exactly what they want to do. This whole war was about > >> >> > >> >destabilizing > >> >> > >> >> >> >the Middle East so that oil prices would rise and make > >> >billions > >> >> > for > >> >> > >> >> >George's > >> >> > >> >> >> >friends, screwing everyone else in the process. > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >Osama has publicly said that his mission is to bankrupt > the > >> US > >> >> > the > >> >> > >> >same > >> >> > >> >> >> way > >> >> > >> >> >> >that he feels he bankrupted the USSR in Afghanistan as > >payback > >> >> > for > >> >> > >> >> >Israeli/US > >> >> > >> >> >> >aggression in Lebanon in the 1980s. I'm not defending > him > >> or > >> >> his > >> >> > >> >agenda > >> >> > >> >> >> >AT ALL, but we need to look at our enemies clearly - and > >our > >> >> > >so-called > >> >> > >> >> >friends > >> >> > >> >> >> >- if we're going to make good decisions. > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >Just like Osama, Bush and his friends want to bankrupt > the > >> US > >> >> > >> >government > >> >> > >> >> >> >in several ways, too: they want to give as much money > as > >> >> possible > >> >> > >> to > >> >> > >> >> >their > >> >> >
>> >> >> >corporate friends through reconstruction projects and > >military > >> >> > >> >contracts, > >> >> > >> >> >> >they want to dismantle, as much as possible, what little > >> >social > >> >> > >> >> >safety-net > >> >> > >> >> >> >the US has, and they want to bleed the American people > >> >directly > >> >> > >with > >> >> > >> >> high > >> >> > >> >> >> >gas and oil prices. > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >The best way to end social spending and bring the US back > >> to > >> >the > >> >> > >early > >> >> > >> >> >1900s > >> >> > >> >> >> >economically (which seems to be part of the conservative > >> >> ideology) > >> >> > >> is > >> >> > >> >> to > >> >> > >> >> >> >saddle the government with so much debt that the public > >simply > >> >> > >can't > >> >> > >> >> >afford > >> >> > >> >> >> >social programs anymore. He's intentionally trying to > >> >bankrupt > >> >> > the > >> >> > >> US > >> >> > >> >> >government > >> >> > >> >> >> >to further entrench the power of his rich friends, and > he's > >> >> doing > >> >> > >> a > >> >> > >> >great > >> >> > >> >> >> >job. > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >There are two things that most so-called conservatives > >don't > >> >> seem > >> >> > >> to > >> >> > >> >> >consider. > >> >> > >> >> >> > One, if you don't redistribute a certain amount of wealth > >> >> through > >> >> > >> >> >taxation, > >> >> > >> >> >> >it gets so concentrated that the economy collapses and > >> >nobodies > >> >> > >wealth > >> >> > >> >> is > >> >> > >> >> >> >worth anything anymore. Second, cutting taxes shrinks > the > >> >> economy. > >> >> > >> >> Why? > >> >> > >> >> >> > Because individuals, especially rich ones, don't spend > >100% > >> >of > >> >> > >every > >> >> > >> >> >dollar > >> >> > >> >> >> >they earn - they save some of it. Governments generally > >spend > >> >> > >every > >> >> > >> >> red > >> >> > >> >> >> >cent they bring in. So, when George cuts taxes for his > >rich > >> >> > >friends, > >> >> > >> >> >the > >> >> > >> >> >> >US economy actually shrinks by the amount that people save > >> and > >> >> > >> >government > >> >> > >> >> >> >would have spent, further contributing the bankrupting > of > >> >> America. > >> >> > >> &gt
e US falls apart. I can't even tell you > >how > >> >> > >> >heartbroken > >> >> > >> >> >> >and disappointed I was when George won the election. I've > >> >> always > >> >> > >> >> >believed > >> >> > >> >> >> >in and admired Americans - and I still do - but these are > >> very > >> >> > >> >worrisome > >> >> > >> >> >> >times. > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by > this > >> >> > >> >senselessness > >> >> > >> >> >> > - American, British, Canadian, Iraqi, and everyone else. > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >All the best, > >> >> > >> >> >> >Mike Audet > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Kim, > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>I hear your arguments and I respect your opinion. I do > >not, > >> >> > >however, > >> >> > >> &
br /> > >> >> have > >> >> > >> >done > >> >> > >> >> >> >>something. Obviously the EU, Russia and the UN didn't > give > >> a > >> >> damn > >> >> > >> >about > >> >> > >> >> >> >>anything but oil. It's blatantly obvious that keeping > >Sadaam > >> >in > >> >> > >power > >> >> > >> >> >was > >> >> > >> >> >> >>all about oil. If this was about oil to us, I guarantee > >> we > >> >> would > >> >> > >> >have > >> >> > >> >> >> half > >> >> > >> >> >> >>a million men over there right now guarding the pipelines > >> and > >> >> > >> >> >infrastructure > >> >> > >> >> >> >>from border to border and we'd be sucking that teat dry > as > >> a > >> >> bone > >> >> > >> as > >> >> > >> >> we > >> >> > >> >> >> >>speak. As you have so astutely noticed, Americans aren't > >> >> subtle. > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Regards, > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >>
ic > >don't > >> >> seem > >> >> > >> to > >> >> > >> >> care > >> >> > >> >> >> >if > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> others in some other country miles away suffer, so you > >> have > >> >> > to > >> >> > >> tell > >> >> > >> >> >them > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> that Iraq pose a threat. See, if GWB hadn't lied about > >> that > >> >> > I > >> >> > >> >*almost* > >> >> > >> >> >> >>would > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> have been on his side... though I still couldn't have > >> >> stomached > >> >> > >> >that > >> >> > >> >> >> >as > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> he was, to my mind, clearly in it for the oil. I think > >> if > >> >the > >> >> > >U.S. > >> >> > >> >> had > >> >> > >> >> >> >>waited > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> a little longer, and put a little more pressue on the > >U.N. > >> >> that > >> >> > >> >> >eventually > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> the U.N. would have gotten more behind it. I think GWB > >> & co > >> > > >> >> > >> >actually > >> >> > >> >> >> >>*didn't > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> want* the U.N. behind them, because by going alone they > >> >could > >> >> > be > >> >> > >> in > >> >> > >> >> >> >>charge, > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> and that would give them more power politically as the > >> >> country > >> >> > >> was > >> >> > >> >> >> >>restructured. > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> That's my beleif anyhow. I felt that it was only a > >matter > >> >of > >> >> > >time > >> >> > >> >> >before > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> enough countries voted for it in the U.N. They could > >only > >> >> > >> >> >procrastinate > >> >> > >> >> >> >>for > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> so long. It was big news and the public was watching. > A > >> >whole > >> >> > >swag > >> >> > >> >> of > >> >> > >> >> >> >>countries > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> weren't saying "no" but were saying "wait just a little > >> >> more". > >> >> > >> Sure > >> >> > >> >> it > >> >> > >> >> >> >was > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> getting tiresome, but I think holding out would have > >been > >> >> worth > >> >> > >> it. > >> >> > >> >> >The > >> >> > >> >> >> >>way > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> it was handled it came across too much as if GWB was > >just > >> >> hell > >> >> > >> bent > >> >> > >> >> on > >> >> > >> >> >> >war > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> for oil, which I think is true. Holding out a little > >longer > >> >> > >would > >> >> > >> >> have > >> >> > >> >> >> >>made > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> a big difference to the opinions of many IMO, whether > >the > >> >> U.N. > >> >> > >> >> >actually > >> >> > >> >> >> >>ended > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> up behind it or not. > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Anyway, the whole thing is screwed. > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> This London thing is screwed. > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> And I forgot my lunch this morning. DOH! > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> And now we've got a political thread on the main group. > >> DOH > >> >> > >DOH!! > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Cheers, > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Kim. > >> >> > >> >> &
gt;> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > >...............and furthermore, I think I am getting the impression from your posts that you believe that I thought all of these Europpeans wer bad people somehow. Tjhat is not the case. I am as disappointed in the Europeans as you obviously are at the US. We can disagree. If you think that somehow I am going to go along with dropping a nuke somewhere then you are mistaken. My post to Neil was meant as a rather grim joke, but these are grim times. What would you have us do if we have credible evidence that Tehran has their finger on the button that will send a nuke to Berlin? Do you want us to wait while the UN argues about it and Berlin burns to the ground? I assure you that this is a possible scenario.....maybe not Berlin, but somewhere in the neighborhood..........and kissing the asses of this *non--stereotypical humaniod being with no cultural bias whatsoever which is not driving his non-ideology* will not do much to discourage him fromnuclear blackmail once he has the capability. This is a very big difference that I'm seeing between us. Best, Doug "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message news:42d6cb58@linux... > Well........you may assume that my impressions of Europe are wrong, but > these impressions were of Europeans who were *from Europe* who were > professionals, hippies, soldiers, tradesmen and were there for long periods > of time, returning to this place again and again, year after year for almost > 20 years and I saw the same thing happen, again and again, year after year > for almost 20 years, so I'm sure there is no reason to assume there's any > relationship between what I experienced and what is reality. > > > "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6c7de$1@linux... > > > > doug, the "let me explain america to you" part was, of course, pure > irony. > > but im somehow glad that > > you missed it, because it should give you a nice impression > > about how your ranting about > > the europe you believe to know so much about comes > > across to someone who actually does know a thing or two > > about europe because he happens to live there. > > > > the sad part being, in your case it wasnt irony. > > > > > > > > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > > >First of all, now I am really astounded at you. You say you know so much > > >about America??????? You are also getting your information from a very > small > > >sample. I know you lived here for a while and have visited here often, > but > > >you don't live here *now* and you are obviously choosing very carefully > > what > > >you want to believe. If you want to consider your sources to be any more > > >valid than mine, then first consider where your sources are coming from > > and > > >make sure you consider them all. I will try to do the same..........but > > I > > >assure you that if you ignore cultural differences which, whether you > like > > >it or not, are the reasons that stereotypes are created, they you do > truly > > >have your head buried in the sand. > > > > > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6bf8a$1@linux... > > >> > > >> wheres the part with the long visits to the countries you seem > > >> to know enough about to be sure that your stereotypes are > > >> "real"? you are really trying to tell ME (i LIVE here...) that your > > >> stereotypes are "the truth" because of the bunch > > >> stereotype-ish people that conveniently lived somewhere > > >> near you in the last 20 years? you know, i happen to know > > >> some americans that live here too. so let me explain to you > > >> what america is and how america works, because i do know. > > >> > > >> > > >> unbelievable. even funny in a way. > > >> > > >> > > >> that non-judgmentalism you talk about, yeah i know, it currently > > >> is peoples favourite enemy de la saison. ooooh non-judgmentalism!!! bad > > >bad > > >> bad!!! its the antichrist! booooh! > > >> *throws tomato* > > >> > > >> i gotta tell you, reading about how "well founded" your > > >> ideas of europe were (reminds me of last time where you > > >> marked "stefan schroeder" or some such as member of the > > >> "evil" (TM) club, while not even knowing his actual name), i > > >> think a little dose of humility and non-judgmentalism wouldnt be all > that > > >> bad. > > >> > > >> i wont go into the iraq thing any more than say that there is more to > > the > > >> whole story than > > >> "violating UN sanctions" (which other countries like israel > > >> or the US do just as much, not that it matters anymore). > > >> fuck that dumb dicussion about peoples motivations - > > >> usually a country operates driven by a mixture of greed, > > >> egoism, a little dose of humanism and morality (preferably when it > > >> happens to be in sync with other interests) and power. > > >> ever
y country, every institution is like that, its > > >> only the mixture that varies a bit - discussions about > > >> that lead nowhere (at best they lead to kindergarden stereotypes > > >> such as the impressively well researched ones you had to offer - > > >> greedy selifish europe or, equally stupid, the oh so evil USA, all that > > BS > > >> thats only > > >> there because some people like to have everything in easy categories) > > >> > > >> > > >> its only different this tim
s so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city > > >> for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so > funny > > >> ha ha) - israel is a prime example where you can compare the > > >> different concepts of brute force versus deescalation. > > >> brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a > > >> conflict ending concept. deescalation had about 5 years > > >> (you know, until that religious dumbass shot rabin). > > >> which concept came closer to actual peace? you tell me. > > >> > > >> im much more interested in that basic discussion of concepts > > >> than in dealing stereotype bullshit like the "selfish > > >> socialist europe" or the equally stupid speculation about > > >> whether mr. bush's motivation is a selfish one or a selfless act > > >> (i would guess its a typical case of a mixture). > > >> > > >> im too old for that BS. and you should be too. honestly. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > > >> >Well, I've got little time here so I'm going to try to finish this in > > a > > >> >brief a post as possible. > > >> > > > >> >To sum up the previous post.......after 1976, when electricity and > decent > > >> >roads were brought into this area, it became an increasingly > > >international > > >> >community of people and a big experiment in socialism. The same > problems > > >> >that inevitably doom socialism to failure, were very evident and it > was > > >> a > > >> >real eye opener to those among us who thouight we could transcend > human > > >> >nature for the *good of the group*. Also the permissiveness and > > >> >non-judgmentalism that was part of this experiment (we call it > political > > >> >correctness now) caused a lot of problems. One really funny thing > > >happened > > >> >early on. The Indians who were all part of the big extended family > that > > >> ws > > >> >running this place were all laughing like crazy one night at a get > > >together > > >> >they were having. I could understand their dialect and they had known > > me > > >> for > > >> >years. wht they were laughing about was the stereotypes they were > > >noticing. > > >> > > > >> >The French tourists distrusted the Germans. The Italians and the > French > > >> >seemed to be in some sort of competition all the time with each other. > > >The > > >> >Quebecois Canadians pretty much hated the French and vice versa. The > > >Germans > > >> >and the Americans got along pretty well, though no one really wanted > > to > > >> >admit liking the Americans much when Americans weren't around. The > > >Americans > > >> >seemed to have very strange reltionships with the Europeans and other > > >> >Americans. Some of the Americans wanted to be liked by the Europeans, > > >lots > > >> >of the Americans wanted everyone to think they were Californians. The > > >> >Scandinavians were a bit aloof from the rest of the Europeans and > > >Americans. > > >> >The Texans weren't really considered to be Americans by the Europeans > > or > > >> the > > >> >Mexicans and got along better with the Mexicans than with anyone else > > >there. > > >> >There were lots of other things like this that they were noticing. The > > >> >really telling thing about it all was that every nationality > eventually > > >> >ended up at their own posada (sort of like an outdoor hotel on the > > >beach). > > >> >There was the German, French, Spanish, Swiss, American......etc. > posada. > > >> >Just like all of these people who were willing to pay lip service to > > the > > >> >idea of one big happy worle, were totally unable to practice this and > > >their > > >> >preconceptions and stereotypes where easy to recognize by a group of > > >people > > >> >who were totally unfamiliar with world history and > politics............so > > >> >they saw the stereotypic BS that you ascribe to me. Once I heard this, > > I > > >> >started paying attention to it and there is a lot more ugly stuff I > could > > >> >say about it, but it would do no good and despite your anger at me, I > > am > > >> >basing my opinions on real experience, not theories of how things > ought > > >> to > > >> >be. > > >> > > > >> >During the 70's and 80's this was a good jumping off place for > travelling > > >> >further down into central and south america. It was pretty awful down > > >there > > >> >because there was a lot of killing going on, boith over politics and > > >drugs > > >> >(which were pretty much the same). The Hollywood movies like Salvador > > >only > > >> >show one side of this *freedom fighter* picture. It was awful, but I > > saw > > >> >some stuff down there that was done by Cuban agents and their > > >bloodthirsty > > >> >guerilla allies that was as bad as anything you can possibly imagine > > in > > >> your > > >> >worst nightmares. None of this kind of stuff is good, but I can assure > > >you > > >> >that Americans weren't the only ones associated with death squads. It > > was > > >> >just reported that way in the press. > > >> > > > >> >As far as my comments which apparently have convinced you that I am > > >> >unrecoginzable, perhaps I am. People change. We have been attacked. We > > >know > > >> >how long it takes the UN do anything. In the meantime.....millions of > > >people > > >> >can die. Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years > and > > >> was > > >> >in a position to do us a lot of harm. I don't buy the idea that he was > > >some > > >> >non-threat. Saying that we should have waited longer after we had > waited > > >> for > > >> >10 years while the French, Russians and the UN bureaucrats had > supported > > >> >Sadaam against the same resolutions they had approved gives me little > > >faith > > >> >in the UN doing anything right or in a timely manner and given this > > >> >experience. > > >> > > > >> >I think the European people should be supporting us and they are very > > >> >divided about this. My opinions are mixed about them as well so > > >yes......I > > >> >have changed. I'm tryly sorry that you now see me as some kind of evil > > >> >person, but I'll get over it. > > >> > > > >> >Regards, > > >> > > > >> >Doug > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message > > >> >news:42d54f92@linux... > > >> >> Ok Derek, > > >> >> > > >> >> >maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint, > > >> >> but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you. reading > > the > > >> >> stereotype BS you spread< > > >> >> > > >> >> I'm not spouting stereotypes for the sake of trying to make someone > > >*bad* > > >> >> and someone else *good*. I am relating the truth I have seen based > > on > > >> real > > >> >> world experience. If it's ugly to you, then that's good. It's ugly > > to > > >> me > > >> >> too. When I look at what is happening I see stereotypes, though they > > >are > > >> >not > > >> >> racial, they are cultural, they are constantly evolving and they are > > >very > > >> >> real. From around 1965 through 1995 I spent a good part of my life > > as > > >> part > > >> >> of one of these evolving stereotypes. > > >> >> > > >> >> I am old compared to most of the folks here, I think. I was born in > > >1950. > > >> >> The town where I was born was a small town in the southern US which > > was > > >> >full > > >> >> of hypocracy and racial predjudice. I remember some very ugly things > > >very > > >> >> vividly. Without going into a lot of detail about this, the effect > > of > > >> this > > >> >> made me really angry and very willing to believe that there was > > >something > > >> >> wrong with what my parents generation was saying, but not doing. I > > also > > >> >came > > >> >> to distrust organized religion at a very early age because of these > > >> >> experiences and the hypocracy I saw. > > >> >> > > >> >> My grandmother had a big hammond organ in her parlor and also a baby > > >grand > > >> >> piano. From the time I was about 5 years old, I would climb up on > the > > >> >> benches and play the keys. I was told I had a *good ear* because I > > >could > > >> >> listen to the radio songs and figure out how to play them on the > keys > > >> >> (though I couldn't reach the pedals ;o). During the 50's, I lived in > > >south > > >> >> Texas (part of the time in Erling's favorite place, Corpus Christi, > > >Texas) > > >> >> and travelled across the border into Mexico often with my father. > > He > > >> was > > >> >a > > >> >> merchanical design engineer and a pilot and did a lot of work > designing > > >> >> large installations for the agricultural interests which were > sponsored > > >> by > > >> >> both rich Mexican landowners and the Mexican government (which was > > >> >basically > > >> >> rich Mexican and other international landowners) I saw lots more > > >ugliness > > >> >> there as far as exploitation of people by other people. It was so > > >> >obviously > > >> >> wrong and when I would ask my father about it, he would excuse it, > > but > > >> I > > >> >> couldn't accept this. I became very rebellous and a what is called > > >here, > > >> a > > >> >> *problem child* > > >> >> > > >> >> By 1965, this pissed off 15 year old kid was playing in a band that > > was > > >> >> fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be recognized in a fairly large > > >> >> regional market. By the time I was 17 years old we were opening > shows > > >> for > > >> >> touring acts. Our roadies were a bunch of disillusioned ex VietNam > > Vets > > >> >who > > >> >> were majorly into drugs (especially asian varieies of pot and also > > >opiates > > >> >> and LSD/hallucenogens) and the emerging drug/anti war > counterculture > > >> and > > >> >> our management were a bunch of old school hollywood type > entertainment > > >> >> industry scumbags who would exploit their own mother if it would > make > > >> them > > >> >> $$$. They had no problem keeping a bunch of young kids tweaked on > > >> >> amphetamines to make sure they were *up for the gig*. > > >> >> > > >> >> By 1968, I had somehow managed to graduate from high school and had > > >been > > >> >> accepted to a number of universities. My folks were willing to do > what > > >> >they > > >> >> could to help and I knew I couldn't sustain the music career (which > > was > > >> >less > > >> >> a career and more like a party) and continue my education, plus I > was > > >> so > > >> >> totally burned out from the *lifestyle* that whatever creative spark > > >that > > >> >I > > >> >> had tried to cultivate during this time was in the crapper anyway. > > I > > >> >didn't > > >> >> want to be a musician any more. I was not, however, burned out on my > > >> >> countercultural beliefs. I was *into it* before it was considered to > > be > > >> >> *cool*, at least in Texas. > > >> >> > > >> >> There was this war going on and lots of my friends were headed over > > >there. > > >> >> This country was being torn apart by dissention and I became more > and > > >> more > > >> >> involved in the anti-war movement and the increasingly emerging > > >> >philosophy > > >> >> of non-judgmentalism and defiance of the rule of law/politial > > >anarchism. > > >> >> > > >> >> While I was in school, I ran into a few old acquaintances. They were > > >the > > >> >> rich children of some of the people my dad had been doing business > > with > > >> in > > >> >> Mexico. They were going to universtity in the states and were, like > > me, > > >> >> angry, into the counterculture and we renewed our friendships. I > > >started > > >> >> going down to Mexico with them on school holidays and we would > travel > > >> to > > >> >> places which were pretty unbelievable. Like paradises which were > mostly > > >> >> untouched by human beings (except of course, the local Indians, who > > >were > > >> >not > > >> >> really considered to be human by anyone, including these > *enlightened* > > >> >young > > >> >> Mexican revolutionaries-the Indians weren't cool. They were > > >> >traditionalists > > >> >> and not into drugs, socialism and free love). A lot of the friends > > of > > >> my > > >> >> Mexican friends were going to European universities and I met quite > > a > > >> few > > >> >of > > >> >> them and quite a few of their european friends who were my age and > > >would > > >> >> travel with them on holiday. We became well acquainted and we shared > > a > > >> lot > > >> >> in common with our political philosophies which were becoming > > >increasing > > >> >> leftist-leaning. It is ironic that the children of priviledge were > > the > > >> >ones > > >> >> who most despised the systems that allowed them those priviledges. > > >> >> > > >> >> In early 1970 I moved to Los Angeles because I wanted to get away > from > > >> >> Texas, go to school out there and be a part of the California scene. > > My > > >> >> uncle was a business partner with a big television star from Texas, > > had > > >> a > > >> >> big house and invited me to live with them while I established > myself. > > >> >> During the time I was there, I met quite a few of the folks in the > > film > > >> >and > > >> >> music industry and their kids. > > >> >> Some of these kids are now known as part of the > > >> >> *Hollywood elite* and are very active and outspoken > > >> >> members of the leftist political scene in this country. > > >> >> I also started getting a sense of discomfort with the drug culture > > >that > > >> >was > > >> >> going on, but was still cool because it was so integrated with the > > rest > > >> of > > >> >> the anarchistic counter culture. This is where my beliefs in > > >> >> non-judgementalism were beginning to be severely challenged. The > > >decadence > > >> >> was so unbelievable that it was obviously hurting people, but it > wasn't > > >> >cool > > >> >> to talk about it. A bunch of the kids I was hanging out with knew > some > > >> >> people that called themselves *The Family*. I even went out to the > > >ranch > > >> >> where some of were still living while Charles Manson, their leader, > > was > > >> in > > >> >> jail on a multiple murder charges and I partied with them. One of my > > >> >cousins > > >> >> had dated one of them, a guy from McKinney Texas named Tex Watson > who > > >> had > > >> >> murdered people. There were some of the wierdest, scariest people > you > > >> can > > >> >> imagine but even despite stuff like this, no one in the Hollywood > > >> >> *counterculture* was willing to believe that some aspects of their > > >> >lifestyle > > >> >> might not be so great. Non-judgmentalism was sooooooo *uncool*. > > >> >> > > >> >> I continued to participate as as activist in all of the *causes du > > >jour* > > >> I > > >> >> supported gay rights and the *women's movement* (I loved the moving > > >women) > > >> >> and celebrated when birth control pills became available and > abortions > > >> >> became legal. I was active in the democratic party, watched as the > > >various > > >> >> power brokers emerged in that party to *take care of* the Afro > American > > >> >> citizens > > >> >> and Mexican American farm workers. I had been gassed in anti-war > > >protests > > >> >> and had my feet firmly planted in the *hate America* movement. > > >> >> > > >> >> Anyway, by 1973 I had graduated from my college studies with a major > > >> >degree > > >> >> in political science with minor studies in psychology and economics. > > >This > > >> >> liberal arts education didn't really qualify me for any kind of > career > > >> >path > > >> >> but I was young, invincible, resourceful and I figured if I knew my > > >way > > >> >> around these things, I could pretty much make my way in the world. > > >> >> > > >> >> The first thing I did was to take some time and go back down to > Mexico. > > >> I > > >> >> didn't want to be part of America anymore and I had seen a place > during > > >> my > > >> >> travels down there where I thought I might be happy. It was a > deserted > > >> >place > > >> >> with a *feeling* about it. I can't describe it, but others who I > have > > >> met > > >> >> there who are more travelled than I am tell me they feel the same > kind > > >> of > > >> >> *energy* there that they have felt in places like Jerusalem, > Katmandhu, > > >> >> Mecca and other locations which are considered to be religious > > >> >destinations. > > >> >> In 1973, it was just a deserted beach with a little store owned by > > a > > >> >Zapotec > > >> >> Indian named Ramon Aguilar Villalobos and this exended family, two > > of > > >> >which > > >> >> were his in-laws, Manuel and Maria who basically founded this small > > >> >village > > >> >> back in the early 20th century and were very old. I spent a good > part > > >> of > > >> >my > > >> >> life in this place and lived with this family during those times > from > > >> 1973 > > >> >> until 1990. Unfortunately, this place is nothing like it used to be > > and > > >> >now > > >> >> even has websites dedicated to it, but I guess that's part of the > story > > >> >> about thie place. > > >> >> I am going to post a link to this place so that you can see it. You > > may > > >> >have > > >> >> been there or know people who have. There is more to this story but > > I > > >> have > > >> >> work to do today so I will stop now and continue later when I have > > the > > >> >time. > > >> >> This story actually does lead somewhere that is relevant to this > > >> >> conversation. Sorry it has been so long but you have asked me a > > >question > > >> >> that is valid, but not easily answered, so I'll continue later if > you > > >> are > > >> >> interested. Though I haven't been there for a while, this was my > home > > >> and > > >> >is > > >> >> still my second home- > > >> >> > > >> >> I know a lot of the people in these pictures. I watched them grow up > > >and > > >> >> taught a few of them how to swim and catch fish. the beautiful young > > >> >woman, > > >> >> Claudia is the > > >> >> niece of my friend Ramon. The two people, John and Maria were guests > > at > > >> my > > >> >> home in Austin after one of my trips to Zipolite and we watched the > > >events > > >> >> unfold at Tienamen Square on television. They were having some bad > > drug > > >> >> problems even then. They are both kind, intelligent victims of the > > >social > > >> >> experiment that is > > >> >> happening there. > > >> >> > > >> >> http://www.greatvavavoom.com/stories/storyReader$56 > > >> >> > > >> >> This link is also descriptive of how this place has evolved and > what > > >> the > > >> >> place was like the last time I was there. > > >> >> > > >> >> http://community-2.webtv.net/ivanjay/IVANJSNAVELYHOMEPORT/ > > >> >> > > >> >> more to come...... > > >> >> > > >> >> Regards, > > >> >> > > >> >> Doug > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message > news:42d45df1@linux... > > >> >> > > > >> >> > maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint, > > >> >> > but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you. > > >> >> > reading the stereotype BS you spread, im frankly shocked, > > >> >> > thats pretty much all there is to it. i definetly dont recognize > > you. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > maybe its because im a european hypocrite sitting on my ass or > > >> >something. > > >> >> > cause thats the way we are, we "euros", right? > > >> >> > > > >> >> > *shakes head in disbelief* > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > > >> >> > >Yes I do. Unfortunately, we apparently understand each other. > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >Regards, > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >DJ > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message > > >> >news:42d45332$1@linux... > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> you know how i meant it. > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> whatever. > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > > >> >> > >> >It makes me sad too Derek. If the governments of Europe would > > >learn > > >> >> from > > >> >> > >> the > > >> >> > >> >mistakes of the past, it would make me less sad. > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message > > >> >> news:42d436c1$1@linux... > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> doug, > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> your fucked up picture of europe truly makes me sad. > > >> >> > >> >> youve come a long way, really. > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> regards, > > >> >> > >> >> derek > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war/wmd/fuel-air-explo sion/ > > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >Maybe this??? Lots less radioactivity.........but > > >> >> > >seriously............. > > >> >> > >> >> >you're right that Muslims are going to need to get real > > >proactive > > >> >> > with > > >> >> > >> >their > > >> >> > >> >> >own. There's some pretty Hitlerian dialog going on in > Holland > > >> >these > > >> >> > >days > > >> >> > >> >> >about how to clean up the *Islamic problem*. It's funny > about > > >> how > > >> >> > the > > >> >> > >> >Euro's > > >> >> > >> >> >whine and bitch about how unfair and awful war is, then > when > > >> the > > >> >> chips > > >> >> > >> >are > > >> >> > >> >> >down.......bingo!!!!!! let's sit around on our collective > > >asses > > >> >and > > >> >> > >watch > > >> >> > >> >> >the Serbs dio a little ethnic housekeeping........oh > shit!!!! > > >> >> > >> >.......those > > >> >> > >> >> >meddling Americans came along and saved the Muslims and > > >spoiled > > >> >all > > >> >> > >our > > >> >> > >> >> >fun.............but hell, let's go visit our buddy Sadaam > > and > > >> >pick > > >> >> > up > > >> >> > >> a > > >> >> > >> >> few > > >> >> > >> >> >million barrells of oil while we're there. Those kids who > > are > > >> >dying > > >> >> > of > > >> >> > >> >> >starvation and disease due to our turning a blind eye to > his > > >> >> > >violations > > >> >> > >> >> of > > >> >> > >> >> >UN sanctions won't care. Hell, they're too busy swatting > the > > >> >flies > > >> >> > off > > >> >> > >> >their > > >> >> > >> >> >festering wounds and running to the crapper with > > >> >> disentery.........and > > >> >> > >> >just > > >> >> > >> >> >maybe while we're there we get lucky in a rape room. > Whaddaya > > >> say > > >> >> > >guys? > > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >The hypocracy is just unbelievable. > > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message > > >news:42cf19b3$1@linux... > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> Your whole line of thought, if correct - especially your > > 3rd > > >> & > > >> >> > >> >> >> 4th paragraphs - would mean that Bush is one of the most > > >evil > > >> >> > >> >> >> sonsofbeeatches ever to walk the face of the earth. I > find > > >> it > > >> >> > >> >> >> hard to believe that in ANY free society, that could be > > the > > >> >> > >> >> >> case. Dictatorships, yeah, free societies, nah. > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> Ya know, as a side thought, for awhile there, I was > really > > >> >> > >> >> >> starting to feel like we made a mistake by going into > > >Iraq... > > >> >> > >> >> >> that we were hornswaggled, as they say - conned by the > > >Iraqi's > > >> >> > >> >> >> who are NOW in power, and who had their own agenda > against > > >> >> > >> >> >> Saddam. Now, with these latest bombings, I'm back to > being > > >> >> > >> >> >> all about retribution, since massive force is the only > thing > > >> >> > >> >> >> these extremists seem to understand - or if they don't > > >> >> > >> >> >> understand it, at least we'll lower their numbers & limit > > > >their > > >> >> > >> >> >> capabilities by that method. So I'm now thinking that a > > good > > >> >> > >> >> >> position would be: for every terrorist attack that occurs > > >> >> > >> >> >> against us or one of our allies, we should nuke an > Islamic > > >> >city. > > >> >> > >> >> >> One bomb - done. Next? Oh you want to bomb another > embassy? > > >> OK, > > >> >> > >> >> >> fine, there goes another Islamic city... bigger bomb this > > >time. > > >> >> > >> >> >> Trust me, that kind of shit wouldn't last too long before > > we > > >> >> > >> >> >> had peace on earth & goodwill towards all men for a good > > >long > > >> >> > >> >> >> time. > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> Neil > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> Neil > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> "Mike Audet" <mike@mike......com> wrote: > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> >Hi Mr. Simplicity, > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> >Unfortunately, Iraq is very much about oil for the US - > > big > > >> US > > >> >> > oil > > >> >> > >> >> >companies. > > >> >> > >> >> >> > And, leaving Iraqi oil in the ground, or burning it in > > >bombed > > >> >> > >> >pipelines > > >> >> > >> >> >> >is exactly what they want to do. This whole war was > about > > >> >> > >> >destabilizing > > >> >> > >> >> >> >the Middle East so that oil prices would rise and make > > >> >billions > > >> >> > for > > >> >> > >> >> >George's > > >> >> > >> >> >> >friends, screwing everyone else in the process. > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> >Osama has publicly said that his mission is to bankrupt > > the > > >> US > > >> >> > the > > >> >> > >> >same > > >> >> > >> >> >> way > > >> >> > >> >> >> >that he feels he bankrupted the USSR in Afghanistan as > > >payback > > >> >> > for > > >> >> > >> >> >Israeli/US > > >> >> > >> >> >> >aggression in Lebanon in the 1980s. I'm not defending > > him > > >> or > > >> >> his > > >> >> > >> >agenda > > >> >> > >> >> >> >AT ALL, but we need to look at our enemies clearly - and > > >our > > >> >> > >so-called > > >> >> > >> >> >friends > > >> >> > >> >> >> >- if we're going to make good decisions. > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> >Just like Osama, Bush and his friends want to bankrupt > > the > > >> US > > >> >> > >> >government > > >> >> > >> >> >> >in several ways, too: they want to give as much money > > as > > >> >> possible > > >> >> > >> to > > >> >> > >> >> >their > > >> >> > >> >> >> >corporate friends through reconstruction projects and > > >military > > >> >> > >> >contracts, > > >> >> > >> >> >> >they want to dismantle, as much as possible, what little > > >> >social > > >> >> > >> >> >safety-net > > >> >> > >> >> >> >the US has, and they want to bleed the American people > > >> >directly > > >> >> > >with > > >> >> > >> >> high > > >> >> > >> >> >> >gas and oil prices. > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> >The best way to end social spending and bring the US > back > > >> to > > >> >the > > >> >> > >early > > >> >> > >> >> >1900s > > >> >> > >> >> >> >economically (which seems to be part of the conservative > > >> >> ideology) > > >> >> > >> is > > >> >> > >> >> to > > >> >> > >> >> >> >saddle the government with so much debt that the public > > >simply > > >> >> > >can't > > >> >> > >> >> >afford > > >> >> > >> >> >> >social programs anymore. He's intentionally trying to > > >> >bankrupt > > >> >> > the > > >> >> > >> US > > >> >> > >> >> >government > > >> >> > >> >> >> >to further entrench the power of his rich friends, and > > he's > > >> >> doing > > >> >> > >> a > > >> >> > >> >great > > >> >> > >> >> >> >job. > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> >There are two things that most so-called conservatives > > >don't > > >> >> seem > > >> >> > >> to > > >> >> > >> >> >consider. > > >> >> > >> >> >> > One, if you don't redistribute a certain amount of > wealth > > >> >> through > > >> >> > >> >> >taxation, > > >> >> > >> >> >> >it gets so concentrated that the economy collapses and > > >> >nobodies > > >> >> > >wealth > > >> >> > >> >> is > > >> >> > >> >> >> >worth anything anymore. Second, cutting taxes shrinks > > the > > >> >> economy. > > >> >> > >> >> Why? > > >> >> > >> >> >> > Because individuals, especially rich ones, don't spend > > >100% > > >> >of > > >> >> > >every > > >> >> > >> >> >dollar > > >> >> > >> >> >> >they earn - they save some of it. Governments generally > > >spend > > >> >> > >every > > >> >> > >> >> red > > >> >> > >> >> >> >cent they bring in. So, when George cuts taxes for his > > >rich > > >> >> > >friends, > > >> >> > >> >> >the > > >> >> > >> >> >> >US economy actually shrinks by the amount that people > save > > >> and > > >> >> > >> >government > > >> >> > >> >> >> >would have spent, further contributing the bankrupting > > of > > >> >> America. > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> >As a Canadian, I'm extremely worried about the direction > > >that > > >> >> the > > >> >> > >> US > > >> >> > >> >> is > > >> >> > >> >> >> heading > > >> >> > >> >> >> >in. Bush and the terrorists seem to have the same > agenda. > > >> >> There's > > >> >> > >> no > > >> >> > >> >> >success > > >> >> > >> >> >> >for Canada if the US falls apart. I can't even tell you > > >how > > >> >> > >> >heartbroken > > >> >> > >> >> >> >and disappointed I was when George won the election. > I've > > >> >> always > > >> >> > >> >> >believed > > >> >> > >> >> >> >in and admired Americans - and I still do - but these > are > > >> very > > >> >> > >> >worrisome > > >> >> > >> >> >> >times. > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> >My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by > > this > > >> >> > >> >senselessness > > >> >> > >> >> >> > - American, British, Canadian, Iraqi, and everyone > else. > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> >All the best, > > >> >> > >> >> >> >Mike Audet > > >> >> > &gt
;> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Kim, > > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>I hear your arguments and I respect your opinion. I do > > >not, > > >> >> > >however, > > >> >> > >> >> >agree > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>with your opinion. Waiting any longher would have done > > no > > >> >good > > >> >> > at > > >> >> > >> all > > >> >> > >> >> >(my > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>opinion of course) and despite the glee that those > opposed > > >> to > > >> >> > the > > >> >> > >> war > > >> >> > >> >> >feel > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>due to there having been no WMD's found, the delay > could > > >> have > > >> >> > >easily > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>provided the time for disposing of them across the > border > > >> in > > >> >> Syria > > >> >> > >> or > > >> >> > >> >> in > > >> >> > >> >> >> >the > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>desolation of the Iraqi hinterland. I don't think<br
's and there weren't any > found, > > >> >> > >therefore, > > >> >> > >> >> the > > >> >> > >> >> >> >war > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>was unjustified. This is political spin at it's > absolute > > >> >lowest > > >> >> > >> >partisan > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>level. This war was about justifiably enforcing UN > > >> >resolutions > > >> >> > and > > >> >> > >> in > > >> >> > >> >> >doing > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>so, removing a bloodthirsty monster who was a proven > > >menace > > >> >to > > >> >> > >> >stability > > >> >> > >> >> >> >in > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>the region. Would it have happened if 9-11 hadn't > > >happened? > > >> I > > >> >> > >don't > > >> >> > >> >> >know, > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>but I think eventually Sadaam would have succeeded in > > >> >shooting > > >> >> > >down > > >> >> > >> >> one > > >> >> > >> >> >> >of > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>our aircraft that was enforcing the no-fly zone and we > > >would > > >> >> have > > >> >> > >> >done > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>something. Obviously the EU, Russia and the UN didn't > > give > > >> a > > >> >> damn > > >> >> > >> >about > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>anything but oil. It's blatantly obvious that keeping > > >Sadaam > > >> >in > > >> >> > >power > > >> >> > >> >> >was > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>all about oil. If this was about oil to us, I > guarantee > > >> we > > >> >> would > > >> >> > >> >have > > >> >> > >> >> >> half > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>a million men over there right now guarding the > pipelines > > >> and > > >> >> > >> >> >infrastructure > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>from border to border and we'd be sucking that teat dry > > as > > >> a > > >> >> bone > > >> >> > >> as > > >> >> > >> >> we > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>speak. As you have so astutely noticed, Americans > aren't > > >> >> subtle. > > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Regards, > > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Deej > > >> >> > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > >> >> > >> >> >news:42cde2d0$1@linux... > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote: > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >and it's a shame that they are apparently the only > > on
es > > >> on > > >> >> > >earth > > >> >> > >> >> who > > >> >> > >> >> >> >saw > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> any > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >merit in enforcing UN resolutions > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> That annoys me too. I'm still anti-bush because I > *hate* > > >> >the > > >> >> > way > > >> >> > >> >they > > >> >> > >> >> >> >went > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> about it... pretending it was an anti-terror thing > > >(which > > >> >> > was > > >> >> > >> >> >clearly > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>garbage). > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> The issue I have too is that to me it seems that GWB > > and > > >> co > > >> >> > >wanted > > >> >> > >> >> >Saddam > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> out not really so much because he was a bad man, but > > >> >because > > >> >> > >they > > >> >> > >> >> >noticed > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Saddam was dealing with others, and figured "freeing" > > >Iraq > > >> >> would > > >> >> > >> >give > > >> >> > >> >> >> >them > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> more oil power. > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> It really frustrates me that as I look around those > > >events, > > >> >> > >> >> >politically, > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> every country pretty much seemed to be in it for > their > > >> own > > >> >> > >agenda, > > >> >> > >> >> and > > >> >> > >> >> >> >not > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> for peace. Indeed the same could be said for much of > > the > > >> >> public. > > >> >> > >> It > > >> >> > >> >> >was > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>obviouly > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> sold as anti-terror because GWB & co didn't think > "free > > >> >Iraq > > >> >> > >from > > >> >> > >> >> >tyranny" > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> would sell because, simply put, a lot of the public > > >don't > > >> >> seem > > >> >> > >> to > > >> >> > >> >> care > > >> >> > >> >> >> >if > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> others in some other country miles away suffer, so > you > > >> have > > >> >> > to > > >> >> > >> tell > > >> >> > >> >> >them > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> that Iraq pose a threat. See, if GWB hadn't lied > about > > >> that > > >> >> > I > > >> >> > >> >*almost* > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>would > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> have been on his side... though I still couldn't > have > > >> >> stomached > > >> >> > >> >that > > >> >> > >> >> >> >as > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> he was, to my mind, clearly in it for the oil. I > think > > >> if > > >> >the > > >> >> > >U.S. > > >> >> > >> >> had > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>waited > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> a little longer, and put a little more pressue on the > > >U.N. > > >> >> that > > >> >> > >> >> >eventually > > >> >> > >&g
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