> "Gary Flanigan" <gary_flanigan@ce9.uscourtss.gov>
wrote in message > news:46362f3a$1@linux... > > > > I'm not sure if this predates the computer age, but I think the music > > video > > did a gr
gt; > > > > > Back in the late 70's an Austin musician named Chris Geppert was heading up > a cover band by the name of Christopher Cross. They used to play lots of > proivate parties and played a lot of gigs at local clubs there, most often > at a nightclub called Steamboat 1874 and it's sister club downtown called > Steamboat Springs. One of my good frineds, a guy named Kerry Flynn, was the > owner/manager of Steamboat 1874 and we used to hang with these guys a bit. > Chris was a good songwriter, had a decent voice and was a fairly proficient > guitar player. The band played lots of his original songs at the club gigs. > He ended getting picked up by a label (I forget which one now) and the band > was flown out ot LA and Michael O'Martian produced their first (and only) > album. Lots of major session musicians played on the album and though the > band members were good players and could hold their own, chris was just no > match for guys like Larry Carlton (who played lead on the album). they got > major airplay with songs like Ride Like the Wind and Sailing. There were > lots of other good songs on the album too...not much filler at all. When > they started touring to promote the album, MTV was just getting started and > they did a video. Chris looked a bit like the Pillsbury Doughboy. Chris' > lack of photogeniety, along with the fact that they didn't bring along the > studio guitar slingers to flesh out the musical prowess and give the > audiences a semblance of the signature chops on a lot of the album cuts, > plus pretty much insured that a second album never happened...........but he > did get his 15 minutes and his songs still get airplay on the oldies > stations(mailbox money). Had he looked like David Lee Roth (I think he could > have even developed a "Meatloaf" kinda *ugly rocker* persona if he had been > the type to get into wrteched excess.....he was a family man though) and > fired his band, he would have probably been more successful. He had lots of > good songs in the can back then. > > ;o) > >Yeah, that was a career-killer,wasn't it? Multi-platinum first album, then go for the sappy movie theme to score some easy bucks & BAM! yer back playin' dive bars in Corpus Christi, baby lol "Carl Amburn" <carlamburn@hotNOSPAMmail.com> wrote: >Are you serious DJ? When you get caught between the moon and New York >City..... > > >"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:46363b5f@linux... >> >> "Gary Flanigan" <gary_flanigan@ce9.uscourtss.gov> wrote in message >> news:46362f3a$1@linux... >> > >> > I'm not sure if this predates the computer age, but I think the music >> > video >> > did a great deal to damage music. It did this in several ways. First, >it >> > placed a fixed visual image in your brain associated with the song. >This >> > pretty much made it impossible to have the music only and fit it into >some >> > context in your life. Second, it moved the focus to visual content >> > instead >> > of aural content. To quote one of my older songs: >> > >> > "Images upon the screen >> > finish our imagining >> > first we watched the singers dance >> > now we watch the dancers sing" >> > >> > >> >> Back in the late 70's an Austin musician named Chris Geppert was heading >up >> a cover band by the name of Christopher Cross. They used to play lots of >> proivate parties and played a lot of gigs at local clubs there, most often >> at a nightclub called Steamboat 1874 and it's sister club downtown called >> Steamboat Springs. One of my good frineds, a guy named Kerry Flynn, was >the >> owner/manager of Steamboat 1874 and we used to hang with these guys a bit. >> Chris was a good songwriter, had a decent voice and was a fairly >proficient >> guitar player. The band played lots of his original songs at the club >gigs. >> He ended getting picked up by a label (I forget which one now) and the >band >> was flown out ot LA and Michael O'Martian produced their first (and only) >> album. Lots of major session musicians played on the album and though the >> band members were good players and could hold their own, chris was just no >> match for guys like Larry Carlton (who played lead on the album). they got >> major airplay with songs like Ride Like the Wind and Sailing. There were >> lots of other good songs on the album too...not much filler at all. When >> they started touring to promote the album, MTV was just getting started >and >> they did a video. Chris looked a bit like the Pillsbury Doughboy. Chris' >> lack of photogeniety, along with the fact that they didn't bring along the >> studio guitar slingers to flesh out the musical prowess and give the >> audiences a semblance of the signature chops on a lot of the album cuts, >> plus pretty much insured that a second album never happened...........but >he >> did get his 15 minutes and his songs still get airplay on the oldies >> stations(mailbox money). Had he looked like David Lee Roth (I think he >could >> have even developed a "Meatloaf" kinda *ugly rocker* persona if he had >been >> the type to get into wrteched excess.....he was a family man though) and >> fired his band, he would have probably been more successful. He had lots >of >> good songs in the can back then. >> >> ;o) >> >> > >1: Drum machines, (of any flavour) 2: Synth Strings. That's about the time I got out of serious studio music recording, (mid 80's) Some of the romance and fascination has returned, mainly due to the same technology I guess, but you will never beat recording real instruments...string, horns, woods etc. -- Martin Harrington www.lendanear-sound.com "Gary Flanigan" <gary_flanigan@ce9.uscourtss.gov> wrote in message news:46362f3a$1@linux... > > I'm not sure if this predates the computer age, but I think the music > video > did a great deal to damage music. It did this in several ways. First, it > placed a fixed visual image in your brain associated with the song. This > pretty much made it impossible to have the music only and fit it into some > context in your life. Second, it moved the focus to visual content > instead > of aural content. To quote one of my older songs: > > "Images upon the screen > finish our imagining > first we watched the singers dance > now we watch the dancers sing" > >I never used 2.2. Version 3 has been fine for me. Any stability issues for me seem related plugins. Gantt John DiBernardo <johnd@tempolakestudios.com> wrote: >Hi all Mac Paris afficionados! > >Ressurecting a long asleep Mac Paris system... >Wondering (among many other things) >If 3.0 is more stable than 2.2 for Mac OS 9.2.2 systems > >Thanks! >John > >On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:20:57 -0400, Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote: >You *just* came to that conclusion? Did you recently experience a >miraculous recovery of eye sight? > >Bill L > >Paul Braun wrote: >> However, both of us have come to the conclusion that Halle Berry is, >> in fact one of the most inhumanly beautiful women on the planet. I >> think my wife would even do her if given the chance. >> I guess I just never paid that close attention to her. Did now. Whoa.... pabI was listening to the radio one day when a pretty big hit tune ame on by a pretty famous female vocalist. I was driving my car and about every third or fourth phrase I'd hear a note and think "I would have tuned that...". It was "The Greatest Love" by Whitney Houston who is, IMHO, a great singer. It made me realize how Autotune (and quantizing and all of our other little studio tricks and tools) have changed the way we and everyone else hears music these days. Music doesn't have to be perfectly in tune or in time to be great. One of the important things that makes a Chicago blues shuffle sound different from a New Orleans second line shuffle or a big band swing shuffle is where the groove lays against "perfect" time. One of the most important things about blues in general is the tension created by "blue" notes. Of course, we all know that. My big complaint about Autotune (and perhaps quantizing and Beat Detective which, thank God, we don't have in Paris!!!) is that now people expect to be able to march into the studio, deliver a mediocre performance, and leave with a "perfect", radio ready, finished product. I've had people tell me that if I can't tune them they'll go elsewhere to work. And I'm talking about talented singers who are capable of getting it right! So if I don't Autotune I don't work. I don't mind tuning a note here and there to save a good singer from burning out during overdubs. I don't mind tweaking a harmony to make a chord sound sweet. And being able to make average music sound a lot better certainly brings me business. And God knows, I need the business. But it get's tiresome sometimes. Not to mention the repetitive motion stress related problems I have now because I sit all day mousing and clicking to fix all this stuff!!! We're not recording engineers anymore - We're data entry clerks! Gantt "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote: > >"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote: >>OK, I'm halfway with you. >> >>1. Autotune > >Hey, I'd have rather heard some properly-applied Autotune the >other day as opposed to the car-horn tritones that supposedly >passed for vocal harmonies on Jan & Dean's "Surf City" when it >came on the Oldies station I was listening to. > >>2.) Quantizing > >If you had been working on the string arrangement I was fighting >with over the past two weeks, you'd have BEGGED for the ability >to quantize the backing track. I know I was. > >NeilOn 1 May 2007 05:02:11 +1000, "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote: > >>2.) Quantizing > >If you had been working on the string arrangement I was fighting >with over the past two weeks, you'd have BEGGED for the ability >to quantize the backing track. I know I was. > And I think I know which track that was..... pabOn 30 Apr 2007 12:13:30 +1000, "Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote: > >Check out this trailer for the new Spinal Tap Movie. "Warmer than Hell" for >global warming. >rod > > >http://liveearth.msn.com/?wa=wsignin1.0&wa=wsignin1.0 > > > This just annoys the fuck out of me - I've been clicking on this link for two days, and have yet to actually get to anything besides the promo blurb. The link that says "watch the film" just shows the stupid promo and then goes into something else. Someone wanna explain to me how to see the actual film????? pabThere are some hotels open in glendale and englewood.... good or bad part of town on either count? AA "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46363174@linux... > > Places to see? I'll start the list with these: > > -Red Rocks Amphitheater > -Museum of Nature and Science > -Denver Zoo > > And, if you're into skiing, head West from here. Not sure when ski resorts > are closing so be sure to double check their web sites. > > I don't have any hotel suggestions other than that there are a lot of 'em > from fleabags to new downtown highrises. So you can choose your level of > luxury or lack thereof. :^) > > Cheers, > -Jamie > www.JamieKrutz.com > > > > Aaron Allen wrote: >> I'm planning to try to arrive late Wed night, get some sleep and attack >> the town on Thursday/Friday/Sat. Still waiting on a call back to solidify >> those plans, but that's it the basics for me right now. Hitting the local >> AAA office for info today as well as doing some car road trip >> maintenance. >> >> I will be looking for hotel/motel info the rest of today, any suggestions >> from the local dudes? Any sites, food, must-see stuff? >> >> AA >> >> >> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message >> news:46362036$1@linux... >>> So what's the plan? Thursday? Friday? Saturday? >>> >>> My schedule is still coalescing so let me know what's under >>> consideration and I'll make what I can. I hope to see you guys! >>> >>> Cheers, >>> -Jamie >>> www.JamieKrutz.com >>> >>> PS. Deej, I sent you my phone number privately, did you get it? >>> >>> >>> >>> John Macy wrote: >>>> Thursday day is pretty cool. Thursday night an old friend >>>> from Texas is playing at Swallow Hill and I must attend. But >>>> always up for late night cocktails... >>>> >>>> Friday day is open, but Friday night my daughter's dance >>>> showcase at school happens, and I absolutely have to be there >>>> from 7-10... Of course, late night cocktails are always a good >>>> thing... >>>> >>>> Saturday day is free till 7:30, with a gig that night... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote: >>>>> Hi John, >>>>> >>>>> Aaron and I are thinking of coming up there earlier in the week. I'll >>>>> likely >>>>> be up there on the afternoon of Thursday, the 3rd. What are your plans >>>>> for >>>>> Thursday and Friday? I think Mr. Snortyhorse will be in the area then >>>>> as >>>>> well. >>>>> >>>>> ;o) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>Paul Braun <cygnus_nospam@ctgonline.org> wrote: >On 1 May 2007 05:02:11 +1000, "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote: > >> >>>2.) Quantizing >> >>If you had been working on the string arrangement I was fighting >>with over the past two weeks, you'd have BEGGED for the ability >>to quantize the backing track. I know I was. >> >And I think I know which track that was..... > >pab LOL! Hey now, I wasn't specifying anything! :)On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:59:02 -0500, Paul Braun <cygnus_nospam@ctgonline.org> wrote: >On 30 Apr 2007 12:13:30 +1000, "Rod Lincoln" ><rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote: > >> >>Check out this trailer for the new Spinal Tap Movie. "Warmer than Hell" for >>global warming. >>rod >> >> >>http://liveearth.msn.com/?wa=wsignin1.0&wa=wsignin1.0 >> >> >> >This just annoys the fuck out of me - I've been clicking on this link >for two days, and have yet to actually get to anything besides the >promo blurb. The link that says "watch the film" just shows the >stupid promo and then goes into something else. > >Someone wanna explain to me how to see the actual film????? > >pab I actually had to do a search, then I found it. Watching now... As you were. pabIMHO, the Christopher Cross phenomena was one of those deals where songwriter meets the right producer. I had heard most of the songs on the first album, but not *like that*. O'Martian's production brought that material to life and made him a star. One of my clients here worked with him many years ago when he was at the top of his game in the 80's and has told some pretty great stories about how brilliant he thought OMartian was/is.........not that he still might not be.....I just don't know. I don't hear much on the radio these days that I think he would be a party to, but maybe he is and I'm just not paying attention. I was glad to see Chris Geppert and his band make it big. They were good and they worked hard for a long time before they got their shot, though as usually happens, the band got short shrift and faded back into the fabric of the working musicians while the songwriter got the lions share of the recognition and $$$. Hey.....he deserved it.........it's the biz and he wrote songs that resonated with the times (especially with the right producer). Good for him. ;o) .. "Neil" <IOUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:463698fc$1@linux... > > Yeah, that was a career-killer,wasn't it? > > Multi-platinum first album, then go for the sappy movie theme > to score some easy bucks & BAM! yer back playin' dive bars > in Corpus Christi, baby lol > > > > > "Carl Amburn" <carlamburn@hotNOSPAMmail.com> wrote: >>Are you serious DJ? When you get caught between the moon and New York >>City..... >> >> >>"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:46363b5f@linux... >>> >>> "Gary Flanigan" <gary_flanigan@ce9.uscourtss.gov> wrote in message >>> news:46362f3a$1@linux... >>> > >>> > I'm not sure if this predates the computer age, but I think the music >>> > video >>> > did a great deal to damage music. It did this in several ways. >>> > First, >>it >>> > placed a fixed visual image in your brain associated with the song. >>This >>> > pretty much made it impossible to have the music only and fit it into >>some >>> > context in your life. Second, it moved the focus to visual content >>> > instead >>> > of aural content. To quote one of my older songs: >>> > >>> > "Images upon the screen >>> > finish our imagining >>> > first we watched the singers dance >>> > now we watch the dancers sing" >>> > >>> > >>> >>> Back in the late 70's an Austin musician named Chris Geppert was heading >>up >>> a cover band by the name of Christopher Cross. They used to play lots > of >>> proivate parties and played a lot of gigs at local clubs there, most >>> often >>> at a nightclub called Steamboat 1874 and it's sister club downtown >>> called >>> Steamboat Springs. One of my good frineds, a guy named Kerry Flynn, was >>the >>> owner/manager of Steamboat 1874 and we used to hang with these guys a > bit. >>> Chris was a good songwriter, had a decent voice and was a fairly >>proficient >>> guitar player. The band played lots of his original songs at the club >>gigs. >>> He ended getting picked up by a label (I forget which one now) and the >>band >>> was flown out ot LA and Michael O'Martian produced their first (and >>> only) >>> album. Lots of major session musicians played on the album and though > the >>> band members were good players and could hold their own, chris was just > no >>> match for guys like Larry Carlton (who played lead on the album). they > got >>> major airplay with songs like Ride Like the Wind and Sailing. There were >>> lots of other good songs on the album too...not much filler at all. When >>> they started touring to promote the album, MTV was just getting started >>and >>> they did a video. Chris looked a bit like the Pillsbury Doughboy. Chris' >>> lack of photogeniety, along with the fact that they didn't bring along > the >>> studio guitar slingers to flesh out the musical prowess and give the >>> audiences a semblance of the signature chops on a lot of the album cuts, >>> plus pretty much insured that a second album never >>> happened...........but >>he >>> did get his 15 minutes and his songs still get airplay on the oldies >>> stations(mailbox money). Had he looked like David Lee Roth (I think he >>could >>> have even developed a "Meatloaf" kinda *ugly rocker* persona if he had >>been >>> the type to get into wrteched excess.....he was a family man though) and >>> fired his band, he would have probably been more successful. He had lots >>of >>> good songs in the can back then. >>> >>> ;o) >>> >>> >> >> >Yeah....when it gets to 10 takes, I start thinking about eithanasia ;o) "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:46368ba4$1@linux... > > "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote: > >>Personally, I think the line an be crossed for any type of >>correction... someone explain to me the difference between >>Autotuning something and making a singer do seventy-five takes >>each of the same phrase they have trouble with in every chorus? >>The fact that "they" actually (finally) sang it? How many takes >>crosses the line? Anyone ever record a sax player trying to >>Coltrane his way through a 16-bar solo, only to have him do >>about 20 punches to get it right? Where does THAT form of >>correction cross the line? > > For me, it crosses the line at 10 takes. Everything after that > is dookie... > > DC >Nigel Tufnel: "Well, count to ten but think "four"" done. pabLike all towns, depends on where... Got any hotel names or locations? "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote: >There are some hotels open in glendale and englewood.... good or bad part of >town on either count? > >AA > >"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46363174@linux... >> >> Places to see? I'll start the list with these: >> >> -Red Rocks Amphitheater >> -Museum of Nature and Science >> -Denver Zoo >> >> And, if you're into skiing, head West from here. Not sure when ski resorts >> are closing so be sure to double check their web sites. >> >> I don't have any hotel suggestions other than that there are a lot of 'em >> from fleabags to new downtown highrises. So you can choose your level of >> luxury or lack thereof. :^) >> >> Cheers, >> -Jamie >> www.JamieKrutz.com >> >> >> >> Aaron Allen wrote: >>> I'm planning to try to arrive late Wed night, get some sleep and attack >>> the town on Thursday/Friday/Sat. Still waiting on a call back to solidify >>> those plans, but that's it the basics for me right now. Hitting the local >>> AAA office for info today as well as doing some car road trip >>> maintenance. >>> >>> I will be looking for hotel/motel info the rest of today, any suggestions >>> from the local dudes? Any sites, food, must-see stuff? >>> >>> AA >>> >>> >>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message >>> news:46362036$1@linux... >>>> So what's the plan? Thursday? Friday? Saturday? >>>> >>>> My schedule is still coalescing so let me know what's under >>>> consideration and I'll make what I can. I hope to see you guys! >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> -Jamie >>>> www.JamieKrutz.com >>>> >>>> PS. Deej, I sent you my phone number privately, did you get it? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> John Macy wrote: >>>>> Thursday day is pretty cool. Thursday night an old friend >>>>> from Texas is playing at Swallow Hill and I must attend. But >>>>> always up for late night cocktails... >>>>> >>>>> Friday day is open, but Friday night my daughter's dance >>>>> showcase at school happens, and I absolutely have to be there >>>>> from 7-10... Of course, late night cocktails are always a good >>>>> thing... >>>>> >>>>> Saturday day is free till 7:30, with a gig that night... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote: >>>>>> Hi John, >>>>>> >>>>>> Aaron and I are thinking of coming up there earlier in the week. I'll >>>>>> likely >>>>>> be up there on the afternoon of Thursday, the 3rd. What are your plans >>>>>> for >>>>>> Thursday and Friday? I think Mr. Snortyhorse will be in the area then >>>>>> as >>>>>> well. >>>>>> >>>>>> ;o) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >You're right about that, prolly (good match between the artist & producer), but another thing that I think contributed is that I think that was really the "era of the soft singer". Off the top of my head... Boz Scaggs had a couple of non-"Lido Shuffle" sappy ballads that hit in that era. Steve Miller (who sang VERY soft for a rocker-ish kinda guy) still was getting airplay. Lionel Richie all over the place during that time. Leo Sayer had his last hit or two around then. Bob Welch - sappy Sentimental ballad & "Ebony Eyes" were around then, IIRC. Michael McFrickin'Donald singing on all the Doobie's mellow stuff (apart from on everyone who could get him to do backups). Rupert Holmes (no, mutherfucker I DON'T like Pina Coladas!!!). Pre-Thriller M.J. ("Rock with You" that was pretty soft-sung). Kenny Rogers' "Lady" was a hit the same year. Robbie Dupree "Why don't we Steal Away... Steeeeal Aaaawaay... into the night" (c'mon, I know you wanna sing a long". George Benson - Gimme the Night. Kool & the Gang - "You know yer Too Hot... too hot, Lady". Geez, I think I could list another hundred... all these were pretty soft-sung songs. Maybe I should rename it the "era of the sensitive male" lol Was Alan Alda making movies during that time? ROFL Neil "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote: >IMHO, the Christopher Cross phenomena was one of those deals where >songwriter meets the right producer. I had heard most of the songs on the >first album, but not *like that*. O'Martian's production brought that >material to life and made him a star. One of my clients here worked with him >many years ago when he was at the top of his game in the 80's and has told >some pretty great stories about how brilliant he thought OMartian >was/is.........not that he still might not be.....I just don't know. I don't >hear much on the radio these days that I think he would be a party to, but >maybe he is and I'm just not paying attention. I was glad to see Chris >Geppert and his band make it big. They were good and they worked hard for a >long time before they got their shot, though as usually happens, the band >got short shrift and faded back into the fabric of the working musicians >while the songwriter got the lions share of the recognition and $$$. >Hey.....he deserved it.........it's the biz and he wrote songs that >resonated with the times (especially with the right producer). Good for him. > >;o) >. > >"Neil" <IOUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:463698fc$1@linux... >> >> Yeah, that was a career-killer,wasn't it? >> >> Multi-platinum first album, then go for the sappy movie theme >> to score some easy bucks & BAM! yer back playin' dive bars >> in Corpus Christi, baby lol >> >> >> >> >> "Carl Amburn" <carlamburn@hotNOSPAMmail.com> wrote: >>>Are you serious DJ? When you get caught between the moon and New York >>>City..... >>> >>> >>>"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:46363b5f@linux... >>>> >>>> "Gary Flanigan" <gary_flanigan@ce9.uscourtss.gov> wrote in message >>>> news:46362f3a$1@linux... >>>> > >>>> > I'm not sure if this predates the computer age, but I think the music >>>> > video >>>> > did a great deal to damage music. It did this in several ways. >>>> > First, >>>it >>>> > placed a fixed visual image in your brain associated with the song. >>>This >>>> > pretty much made it impossible to have the music only and fit it into >>>some >>>> > context in your life. Second, it moved the focus to visual content >>>> > instead >>>> > of aural content. To quote one of my older songs: >>>> > >>>> > "Images upon the screen >>>> > finish our imagining >>>> > first we watched the singers dance >>>> > now we watch the dancers sing" >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> Back in the late 70's an Austin musician named Chris Geppert was heading >>>up >>>> a cover band by the name of Christopher Cross. They used to play lots >> of >>>> proivate parties and played a lot of gigs at local clubs there, most >>>> often >>>> at a nightclub called Steamboat 1874 and it's sister club downtown >>>> called >>>> Steamboat Springs. One of my good frineds, a guy named Kerry Flynn, was >>>the >>>> owner/manager of Steamboat 1874 and we used to hang with these guys a >> bit. >>>> Chris was a good songwriter, had a decent voice and was a fairly >>>proficient >>>> guitar player. The band played lots of his original songs at the club >>>gigs. >>>> He ended getting picked up by a label (I forget which one now) and the >>>band >>>> was flown out ot LA and Michael O'Martian produced their first (and >>>> only) >>>> album. Lots of major session musicians played on the album and though >> the >>>> band members were good players and could hold their own, chris was just >> no >>>> match for guys like Larry Carlton (who played lead on the album). they >> got >>>> major airplay with songs like Ride Like the Wind and Sailing. There were >>>> lots of other good songs on the album too...not much filler at all. When >>>> they started touring to promote the album, MTV was just getting started >>>and >>>> they did a video. Chris looked a bit like the Pillsbury Doughboy. Chris' >>>> lack of photogeniety, along with the fact that they didn't bring along >> the >>>> studio guitar slingers to flesh out the musical prowess and give the >>>> audiences a semblance of the signature chops on a lot of the album cuts, >>>> plus pretty much insured that a second album never >>>> happened...........but >>>he >>>> did get his 15 minutes and his songs still get airplay on the oldies >>>> stations(mailbox money). Had he looked like David Lee Roth (I think he >>>could >>>> have even developed a "Meatloaf" kinda *ugly rocker* persona if he had >>>been >>>> the type to get into wrteched excess.....he was a family man though) and >>>> fired his band, he would have probably been more successful. He had lots >>>of >>>> good songs in the can back then. >>>> >>>> ;o) >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > >http://www.hotels.com/etpServlet?lid=1144902 "John Macy" <spamlessjohn@johnmacy.com> wrote in message news:4636b349$1@linux... > > Like all towns, depends on where... > > Got any hotel names or locations? > > > "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote: >>There are some hotels open in glendale and englewood.... good or bad part > of >>town on either count? >> >>AADeej, gimme a shout on my cell if you're still up. AA "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:4636aed1@linux... > IMHO, the Christopher Cross phenomena was one of those deals where > songwriter meets the right producer. I had heard most of the songs on the > first album, but not *like that*. O'Martian's production brought that > material to life and made him a star. One of my clients here worked with > him many years ago when he was at the top of his game in the 80's and has > told some pretty great stories about how brilliant he thought OMartian > was/is.........not that he still might not be.....I just don't know. I > don't hear much on the radio these days that I think he would be a party > to, but maybe he is and I'm just not paying attention. I was glad to see > Chris Geppert and his band make it big. They were good and they worked > hard for a long time before they got their shot, though as usually > happens, the band got short shrift and faded back into the fabric of the > working musicians while the songwriter got the lions share of the > recognition and $$$. Hey.....he deserved it.........it's the biz and he > wrote songs that resonated with the times (especially with the right > producer). Good for him. > > ;o) > . > > "Neil" <IOUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:463698fc$1@linux... >> >> Yeah, that was a career-killer,wasn't it? >> >> Multi-platinum first album, then go for the sappy movie theme >> to score some easy bucks & BAM! yer back playin' dive bars >> in Corpus Christi, baby lol >> >> >> >> >> "Carl Amburn" <carlamburn@hotNOSPAMmail.com> wrote: >>>Are you serious DJ? When you get caught between the moon and New York >>>City..... >>> >>> >>>"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:46363b5f@linux... >>>> >>>> "Gary Flanigan" <gary_flanigan@ce9.uscourtss.gov> wrote in message >>>> news:46362f3a$1@linux... >>>> > >>>> > I'm not sure if this predates the computer age, but I think the music >>>> > video >>>> > did a great deal to damage music. It did this in several ways. >>>> > First, >>>it >>>> > placed a fixed visual image in your brain associated with the song. >>>This >>>> > pretty much made it impossible to have the music only and fit it into >>>some >>>> > context in your life. Second, it moved the focus to visual content >>>> > instead >>>> > of aural content. To quote one of my older songs: >>>> > >>>> > "Images upon the screen >>>> > finish our imagining >>>> > first we watched the singers dance >>>> > now we watch the dancers sing" >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> Back in the late 70's an Austin musician named Chris Geppert was >>>> heading >>>up >>>> a cover band by the name of Christopher Cross. They used to play lots >> of >>>> proivate parties and played a lot of gigs at local clubs there, most >>>> often >>>> at a nightclub called Steamboat 1874 and it's sister club downtown >>>> called >>>> Steamboat Springs. One of my good frineds, a guy named Kerry Flynn, was >>>the >>>> owner/manager of Steamboat 1874 and we used to hang with these guys a >> bit. >>>> Chris was a good songwriter, had a decent voice and was a fairly >>>proficient >>>> guitar player. The band played lots of his original songs at the club >>>gigs. >>>> He ended getting picked up by a label (I forget which one now) and the >>>band >>>> was flown out ot LA and Michael O'Martian produced their first (and >>>> only) >>>> album. Lots of major session musicians played on the album and though >> the >>>> band members were good players and could hold their own, chris was just >> no >>>> match for guys like Larry Carlton (who played lead on the album). they >> got >>>> major airplay with songs like Ride Like the Wind and Sailing. There >>>> were >>>> lots of other good songs on the album too...not much filler at all. >>>> When >>>> they started touring to promote the album, MTV was just getting started >>>and >>>> they did a video. Chris looked a bit like the Pillsbury Doughboy. >>>> Chris' >>>> lack of photogeniety, along with the fact that they didn't bring along >> the >>>> studio guitar slingers to flesh out the musical prowess and give the >>>> audiences a semblance of the signature chops on a lot of the album >>>> cuts, >>>> plus pretty much insured that a second album never >>>> happened...........but >>>he >>>> did get his 15 minutes and his songs still get airplay on the oldies >>>> stations(mailbox money). Had he looked like David Lee Roth (I think he >>>could >>>> have even developed a "Meatloaf" kinda *ugly rocker* persona if he had >>>been >>>> the type to get into wrteched excess.....he was a family man though) >>>> and >>>> fired his band, he would have probably been more successful. He had >>>> lots >>>of >>>> good songs in the can back then. >>>> >>>> ;o) >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > >Hey Thad.. That's coming from a guy (Me) who is a master of Drum Machines and beat boxes.. hey killed "living" breathing Music.. "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote: > >The 808 and MPC?!? You can't possibly be serious! > >TCB > >"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote: >> >>I totally disagree with all who said Auto-tune. It's effect (autotune)just >>like a phase-shifter, chorus, flanger. And,and can save a great vocal performance.. >> >>My vote would go to the beat boxes(R8, 808, MPC) >> >>"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote: >>>OK, I'm halfway with you. >>> >>>1. Autotune >>> >>>2. Quantizing >>> >>>Sarah >>> >>> >>>"Gantt Kushner" <ganttmann@comcast.net> wrote in message >>>news:46326c60$1@linux... >>>> >>>> Not that I disagree... but my vote would be: >>>> >>>> 1. Autotune >>>> >>>> 2. Autotune >>>> >>>> Gantt >>>> >>>> >>>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>1. The UAD LA-2A emulation, and all of the other various emulations of >> >>>>>that >>>>>emulation. Opto compressors are great when used in the right situation. >>>> And >>>>>of course they're easy to use, there's two knobs and a bypass switch. >>But >>>>>it's precisely the simplicity that makes people slap the damn things >on >>>> everything. >>>>>And opto compressors don't belong on everything, they're way too fast >>for >>>>>many of the places where people put them. Like electric guitars, which >> >>>>>shouldn't >>>>>really need compression anyway. I hear mixes from my friends and the > >>>>>percussive >>>>>attack of the notes are just gone. It's mush. And nine times out of ten >>>> I >>>>>say, 'Hey, you're using an LA-2A on the guitars aren't you?' and then >>they >>>>>think I'm some golden ears genius. No, your guitars sound like shit. >>>>> >>>>>2. Multiband compressors. I don't think I need to explain this. >>>>> >>>>>So, on my upcoming Monkies mixing any time I use an LA-2A I'm going to >> >>>>>make >>>>>sure I justify it in my head, and try a different comp/limiter first. >>I >>>> solemnly >>>>>swear to the entire PARIS newsgroup. >>>>> >>>>>TCB >>>> >>> >>> >> >Sorry man, the link worked when I posted it. It won't work for me know either. rod Paul Braun <cygnus_nospam@ctgonline.org> wrote: >On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:59:02 -0500, Paul Braun ><cygnus_nospam@ctgonline.org> wrote: > >>On 30 Apr 2007 12:13:30 +1000, "Rod Lincoln" >><rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote: >> >>> >>>Check out this trailer for the new Spinal Tap Movie. "Warmer than Hell" for >>>global warming. >>>rod >>> >>> >>>http://liveearth.msn.com/?wa=wsignin1.0&wa=wsignin1.0 >>> >>> >>> >>This just annoys the fuck out of me - I've been clicking on this link >>for two days, and have yet to actually get to anything besides the >>promo blurb. The link that says "watch the film" just shows the >>stupid promo and then goes into something else. >> >>Someone wanna explain to me how to see the actual film????? >> >>pab > >I actually had to do a search, then I found it. Watching now... > >As you were. > >pabGood Grief! I'd have dead bodies all over my studio if that were the case! ;-) Rod "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote: > >Yeah....when it gets to 10 takes, I start thinking about eithanasia > >;o) > >"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:46368ba4$1@linux... >> >> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote: >> >>>Personally, I think the line an be crossed for any type of >>>correction... someone explain to me the difference between >>>Autotuning something and making a singer do seventy-five takes >>>each of the same phrase they have trouble with in every chorus? >>>The fact that "they" actually (finally) sang it? How many takes >>>crosses the line? Anyone ever record a sax player trying to >>>Coltrane his way through a 16-bar solo, only to have him do >>>about 20 punches to get it right? Where does THAT form of >>>correction cross the line? >> >> For me, it crosses the line at 10 takes. Everything after that >> is dookie... >> >> DC >> > >"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote: >Imagine the Rolling Stones autotuned and quantized. Eeeyooo. It hurts just >thinking about it. I can imagine it.. it'd be called: "The Black Crowes" :DHa ha, yes, I'm a confused one, and almost always would like a little more cowbell. Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote: >How about a a need more cowbell Zionist? > > > >TCB wrote: > >> >> However, I the official tempo Nazi in the band. And the designated guitar >> volume Nazi, anti-compression Nazi, less reverb Nazi, and a couple of other >> ones that don't come immediately to mind. >> >> TCB >> >> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote: >>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote: >>>> OK, I'm halfway with you. >>>> >>>> 1. Autotune >>> Hey, I'd have rather heard some properly-applied Autotune the >>> other day as opposed to the car-horn tritones that supposedly >>> passed for vocal harmonies on Jan & Dean's "Surf City" when it >>> came on the Oldies station I was listening to. >>> >>>> 2.) Quantizing >>> If you had been working on the string arrangement I was fighting >>> with over the past two weeks, you'd have BEGGED for the ability >>> to quantize the backing track. I know I was. >>> >>> Neil >> > >-- >Chris Ludwig > >ADK Pro Audio >(859) 635-5762 >www.adkproaudio.com >chrisl@adkproaudio.comLive drummers playing to a click took care of that long before the 808 was a gleam in Roland's eye. "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote: > >Hey Thad.. That's coming from a guy (Me) who is a master of Drum Machines >and beat boxes.. hey killed "living" breathing Music.. > > >"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote: >> >>The 808 and MPC?!? You can't possibly be serious! >> >>TCB >> >>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote: >>> >>>I totally disagree with all who said Auto-tune. It's effect (autotune)just >>>like a phase-shifter, chorus, flanger. And,and can save a great vocal >performance.. >>> >>>My vote would go to the beat boxes(R8, 808, MPC) >>> >>>"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote: >>>>OK, I'm halfway with you. >>>> >>>>1. Autotune >>>> >>>>2. Quantizing >>>> >>>>Sarah >>>> >>>> >>>>"Gantt Kushner" <ganttmann@comcast.net> wrote in message >>>>news:46326c60$1@linux... >>>>> >>>>> Not that I disagree... but my vote would be: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Autotune >>>>> >>>>> 2. Autotune >>>>> >>>>> Gantt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>1. The UAD LA-2A emulation, and all of the other various emulations >of >>> >>>>>>that >>>>>>emulation. Opto compressors are great when used in the right situation. >>>>> And >>>>>>of course they're easy to use, there's two knobs and a bypass switch. >>>But >>>>>>it's precisely the simplicity that makes people slap the damn things >>on >>>>> everything. >>>>>>And opto compressors don't belong on everything, they're way too fast >>>for >>>>>>many of the places where people put them. Like electric guitars, which >>> >>>>>>shouldn't >>>>>>really need compression anyway. I hear mixes from my friends and the >> >>>>>>percussive >>>>>>attack of the notes are just gone. It's mush. And nine times out of >ten >>>>> I >>>>>>say, 'Hey, you're using an LA-2A on the guitars aren't you?' and then >>>they >>>>>>think I'm some golden ears genius. No, your guitars sound like shit. >>>>>> >>>>>>2. Multiband compressors. I don't think I need to explain this. >>>>>> >>>>>>So, on my upcoming Monkies mixing any time I use an LA-2A I'm going >to >>> >>>>>>make >>>>>>sure I justify it in my head, and try a different comp/limiter first. >>>I >>>>> solemnly >>>>>>swear to the entire PARIS newsgroup. >>>>>> >>>>>>TCB >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>><b
g *choices* rather than clams.....and this is mostly because when this starts happening, the client I get in here that is that poorly rehearsed/skilled will inevitably be unhappy with the amount of his own money he is spending and/or I will want to end up polishing this turdfor more hours than he has the money to pay, just because I don't like to see crap emanate from these environs. ;o)Well first time I tried I get no signal whatsoever on any headphone out on any of the three mecs I have !! Is this a known bug again ?? Thanks DimitriosSynchronicity - so today as I go out to lunch and stand in line to order..... and I rarely go out to lunch - what song comes on the friggin' restuarant radio??? When you get caught between.......... Holy Cow, -Carl "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:<a href="mailto:4636aed1&#
64;linux..." target="_blank">4636aed1@linux... > IMHO, the Christopher Cross phenomena was one of those deals where > songwriter meets the right producer. I had heard most of the songs on the > first album, but not *like that*. O'Martian's production brought that > material to life and made him a star. One of my clients here worked with him > many years ago when he was at the top of his game in the 80's and has told > some pretty great stories about how brilliant he thought OMartian > was/is.........not that he still might not be.....I just don't know. I don't > hear much on the radio these days that I think he would be a party to, but > maybe he is and I'm just not paying attention. I was glad to see Chris > Geppert and his band make it big. They were good and they worked hard for a > long time before they got their shot, though as usually happens, the band > got short shrift and faded back into the fabric of the working musicians > while the songwriter got the lions share of the recognition and $$$. > Hey.....he deserved it.........it's the biz and he wrote songs that > resonated with the times (especially with the right producer). Good for him. > > ;o)<b
r /> > . > > "Neil" <IOUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:463698fc$1@linux... > > > > Yeah, that was a career-killer,wasn't it? > > > > Multi-platinum first album, then go for the sappy movie theme > > to score some easy bucks & BAM! yer back playin' dive bars > > in Corpus Christi, baby lol > > > > > > > > > > "Carl Amburn" <carlamburn@hotNOSPAMmail.com> wrote: > >>Are you serious DJ? When you get caught between the moon and New York > >>City..... > >> > >> > >>"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:46363b5f@linux... > >>> > >>> "Gary Flanigan" <gary_flanigan@ce9.uscourtss.gov> wrote in message > >>> news:46362f3a$1@linux...<br /
> > >>> > > >>> > I'm not sure if this predates the computer age, but I think the music > >>> > video > >>> > did a great deal to damage music. It did this in several ways. > >>> > First, > >>it > >>> > placed a fixed visual image in your brain associated with the song. > >>This > >>> > pretty much made it impossible to have the music only and fit it into > >>some > >>> > context in your life. Second, it moved the focus to visual content > >>> > instead > >>> > of aural content. To quote one of my older songs: > >>> > > >>> > "Images upon the screen > >>> > finish our imagining > >>> > first we watched the singers dance > >>> > now we watch the dancers sing" > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> Back in the late 70's an Austin musician named Chris Geppert was heading > >>up > >>> a cover band by the name of Christopher Cross. They used to play lots > > of > >>> proivate parties and played a lot of gigs at local clubs there, most > >>> often > >>> at a nightclub called Steamboat 1874 and it's sister club downtown > >>> called > >>> Steamboat Springs. One of my good frineds, a guy named Kerry Flynn, was > >>the > >>> owner/manager of Steamboat 1874 and we used to hang with these guys a > > bit. > >>> Chris was a good songwriter, had a decent voice and was a fairly > >>proficient > >>> guitar player. Th
s a semblance of the signature chops on a lot of the album cuts, > >>> plus pretty much insured that a second album never > >>> happened...........but > >>he > >>> did get his 15 minutes and his songs still get airplay on the oldies > >>> stations(mailbox money). Had he looked like David Lee Roth (I think he > >>could > >>> have even developed a "Meatloaf" kinda *ugly rocker* persona if he had > >>been > >>> the type to get into wrteched excess.....he was a family man though) and > >>> fired his band, he would have probably been more successful. He had lots > >>of > >>> good songs in the can back then. > >>> > >>> ;o) > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > >heheh!!!...........ooooooeeeeeeeoooooo ;o) "Carl Amburn" <carlamburn@hotNOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message news:463787f3$1@linux... > Synchronicity - so today as I go out to lunch and stand in line to > order..... and I rarely go out to lunch - what song comes on the friggin' > restuarant radio??? > > When you get caught between.......... > > Holy Cow, > -Carl > > "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:4636aed1@linux... >> IMHO, the Christopher Cross phenomena was one of those deals where >> songwriter meets the right producer. I had heard most of the songs on the >> first album, but not *like that*. O'Martian's production brought that >> material to life and made him a star. One of my clients here worked with > him >> many years ago when he was at the top of his game in the 80's and has >> told >> some pretty great stories about how brilliant he thought OMartian >> was/is.........not that he still might not be.....I just don't know. I > don't >> hear much on the r
album). >> >>> they >> > got >> >>> major airplay with songs like Ride Like the Wind and Sailing. There > were >> >>> lots of other good songs on the album too...not much filler at all. > When >> >>> they started touring to promote the album, MTV was just getting > started >> >>and >> >>> they did a video. Chris looked a bit like the Pillsbury Doughboy. > Chris' >> >>> lack of photogeniety, along with the fact that they didn't bring >> >>> along >> > the >> >>> studio guitar slingers
d only get the phone out = active on the=20 Submix A Master MEC. At least that's been my = understanding. =20 Tom
<BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> "Dimitrios" <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:musurgio@NOSPAMotenet.gr">musurgio@NOSPAMotenet.gr>= wrote=20 in message <A=20 = href=3D"news:46377aa5$1@linux">news:46377aa5$1@linux... Well= first=20 time I tried I get no signal whatsoever on any headphone out on any = of the=20 three mecs I have !! Is this a known bug again=20 ?? Thanks Dimitrios I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, = and=20 you? <A=20<br
/> href=3D"http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html">http://www.polesoft.com/refer= ..html ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01C78C02.77641760--Thanks Tom but how ? I don't get any signal from headphone out. regards, Dimitrios "Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net> wrote: > > >Dimitrios, >You should only get the phone out active on the Subm
otenet.gr</A'>mai= lto:musurgio@NOSPAMotenet.gr">musurgio@NOSPAMotenet.gr&g= t;=3D >>=20 wrote=3D20 >> in message <A=3D20 >> =20 =3D >>href=3D3D"<A=20 = href=3D'news:46377aa5$1@linux">news:46377aa5$1@linux... Well= '>news:46377aa5$1@linux">news:46377aa5$1@linux...</DIV&gt= ; Well=3D >>=20 first=3D20 >> time I tried I get no signal whatsoever = on any=20 headphone out on any >=3D >>of = the=3D20 >> =20 three mecs I have !! Is this a known bug=20 = again=3D20 >>?? Thanks Dimitrios</BLOCKQUOT= E> >
expecting a world-beater of a recording. > >The gap between those two truths is where we audio people >live isn't it? > >DC > >btw, I practiced that damn song for months, and can now play >it right again, and I learned a lot about staying in shape, both >musically and physically.i Disagree my friend. A good drummer can "liven" up a click tracked song.. Just his/her nuances and playing in-between the clicks on-time, can humanize a stale robotic track.. "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote: > >Live drummers playing to a click took care of that long before the 808 was >a gleam in Roland's eye. > >"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote: >> >>Hey Thad.. That's coming from a g
> <FONT=20 size=3D3D2> I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight = spam,=20 = =3D >>and=3D20 >>you? <A=3D20 >>hr= ef=3D3D"<A=20 = href=3D'http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html">http://www.polesoft.com/refer= '>http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html">http://www.polesoft.com/refer</A= >=3D >>.html=20 = </BODY&g t; >> >&g= t; &
;>think I'm some golden ears genius. No, your guitars sound like shit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>2. Multiband compressors. I don't think I need to explain this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>So, on my upcoming Monkies mixing any time I use an LA-2A I'm going >>>to >>>>> >>>>>>>>make >>>>>>>>sure I justify it in my head, and try a different comp/limiter first. >>>>>I >>>>>>> solemnly >>>>>>>>swear to the entire PARIS newsgroup. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>TCB >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >Are you getting the same signal on all MECs or the mix signal on MEC on card A and just the submix of the MEC on card B and C. If you're just getting those submixes on the card B & C Mecs, you could route the headphone out of those MECs to a pair of input channels on another MEC (or maybe even loop it back to the same MEC) on a pair of record enabled channels and compress it, etc...........I can't believe I never tried this when I had 4 MECs here.. ;o) "Dimitrios" <musurgio@otenetNOSPAM.gr> wrote in message news:4637946e$1@linux... > > Heh... > Works on all mecs !! > Dimitrios > > "Dimitrios" &
ll mecs !! >> Dimitrios >> >> "Dimitrios" <musurgio@otenet.gr> wrote: >>> >>>Ah I found it !! >>>I should connect the L and R to the Mec's outputs 1 and 2 to get a = signal >>>for the headphones !! >>>I am just using the digital out for monitoring thats why I didn't = get any >>>signal at the heaphone out ! >>>Thanks >>>Dimitrios >>> >>>"Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>Dimitrios, >>>>You should only get the phone out active on the Submix A Master = MEC. >>>>At least that's been my understanding. =3D20 >>>>Tom >>>> >>>> "Dimitrios" <musurgio@NOSPAMotenet.gr> wrote in message =3D >>>>news:46377aa5$1@linux... >>>> >>>> Well first time I tried I get no signal whatsoever on any = headphone =3D >>>>out on >>>> any of the three mecs I have !! >>>> Is this a known bug again ?? >>>> Thanks >>>> Dimitrios >>>> >>>> >>>>I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you? >>>>http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> &gt