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items: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
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Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: nce of pushing the upper limits of 32-bit float's >truncation back down to 24-bits. And I actually simplified it by using two >copies of the same file (just as Fredo did), one phase inverted, both sample >aligned. They cancelled to below 24 bits just as expected, and just as they >should. The variations below 24 bits that I saw (and thought were above >24-bits at one point) are correlation of lower frequencies when gain and >equivalent reduction are introduced (which is what Chuck stated that Paris >does up front on every track). That really doesn't impact the audio itself >since data below -136dB is quantization noise for 24-bit audio. > >Sonar
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-19T01:38:57-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: , Nuendo, Cubase 4 and Sequoia all behaved exactly the same way in this >test - which tells me they are handling the LSB's the same way. When data >is summed to groups, there will be quantization noise below -136dB. This >is completely normal for any native DAW and they all are subject to it. >As you might read in the thread my conclusion was that we proved digital >audio theory exists - e.g. no uncharted territory, no digital audio frontiers, >no bugs in Nuendo. yeeha. But that's what I get for second guessing talented >developers. ;-) > >Fwiw, to take it a step further, Samplitude/Sequoia and Nuendo handle overs, >or "into the red" identically. I checked that too a while back after the >reports of extra headroom, etc in Samplitude. Believe me, I've tried hard >to find where any differences might appear, not just noticeable differences, >but any differences at the lowest levels, but it seems the major native DAW >players are making the same decisions when it comes to truncation, etc, and >there really aren't that many to make. In my tests, dither really wasn't >an issue (I turned it off in all DAWs I tested just to test with pure truncation). > >
creator: TCB
date: 2006-11-19T02:43:20-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: Regards, >Dedric > >"LaMOnt" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote: >> >>Dedric, check out this post from our dear friend Fredo: Neundo Moderator: >>Explaining how Steingberg's audio engine works. Note the trade-offs..Meaning, >>Steinberg's way of coding an audio-engine 32bit float is different than >say >>Magix Samplitude: >> >>Fredo >>Administrative Moderator >> >> >>Joined: 29 Dec 2004 >>Posts: 4213 >>Location: Belgium >> Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:33 pm Post subject: >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- >> >>I think I see where the problem is. >>In my scenario's I don't have any track that goes over 0dBfs, but I have >>always lowered one channel to compensate with another. >>So, I never whent over the 0dB fs limit. >> >>Here's the explanation: >> >>As soon as you go over 0dB, technically you are entering the domain of distortion. >> >>In a 32bit FP mixer, that is not the case since there is unlimited headroom. >> >> >>Now follow me step by step please - read this slow and make sure you understand >>- >> >>At the end of each "stage", there is an adder (a big calculator) which adds >>all the numbers from the individual tracks that are routed to this "adder". >> >>The numbers are kept in the 80-bit registers and then brought back to 32bit >>float. >>This process of bringing back the numbers from 80-bit (and more) to 32bit >>is kept to an absolute minimum. >>This adding/bringing back to 32bit is done at 3 places: After a plugin slot >>(VST-specs for all plugin manufacturers) - Group Tracks and Master Tracks. >> >> >>Now, as soon as you boost the volume above 0dB, you get more than 32bits. >>Stay below 0dB and you will stay below 32 bits. >>When the adders dump their results, the numbers are brought back from any >>number of bits (say 60bit) to 32 bit float. >>These numbers are simply truncated which results in distortion; that's the >>noise/residue you find way down low. >>There is an algortithm that protects us from additiv…
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-19T03:00:19-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: the mix engine as software in either >a >> >>>native DAW >>>or a digital mixer, from the hardware that translates the audio to something >> >>>we hear, >>>but that's what is required when comparing summing. The hardware can >>>significantly change >>>what we hear, so comparing digital mixers really isn't of as much interest >> >>>as comparing native >>>DAWs in that respect - unless you are looking to buy one of course. >>> >>>Even though I know you think manufacturers are trying to add something >to >> >>>give them an edge, I am 100% >>>sure that isn't the case - rather they are trying to add or change as little >> >>>as possible in order to give >>>them the edge. Their end of digital audio isn't about recreating the past, >> >>>but improving upon it. >>>As we've discussed and agreed before, the obsession with recreating >>>"vintage" technology is as much >>>fad as it is a valuable creative asset. There is no reason we shouldn't >> >>>have far superior hardware and software EQs and comps >>>than 20, 30 or 40 years ago. No reason at all, other than market demand, >> >>>but the majority of software, and new >>>hardware gear on the market has a vintage marketing tagline with it. >>>Companies will sell any bill of >>>goods if customers will buy it. >>> >>>There's nothing unique about the summing in Nuendo, Cubase, Sequoia/Samp, >>>or Sonar, and it's pretty safe to include Logic and DP in that list as >well. >> >>>One of the reasons I test >>>these things is to be sure my DAW isn't doing something wrong, or something >> >>>I don't know about. >>> >>>Vegas - I use it for video conversions and have never done any critical >> >>>listening tests with it. What I have heard >>>briefly didn't sound any different. It certainly looks plain vanilla >>>though. What you are describing is exactly >>>what I would say about the GUIs of each of those apps, not that it means >> >>>anything. Just interesting.
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-19T04:02:54-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: t;Dedric >>> >>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:458c82fd$1@linux... >>>> >>>> Dedric, my simple test is simple.. >>>> Using the same audio interface, with the same stereo file..null-ed to >> >>>> zero..No >>>> eq, for fx. Master fader on zero.. >>>> >>>> Nuendo, Pro-Tools -Mpowered(native)... yields a sonic difference that >>I >>>> have >>>> referenced before.. The sound coming from PT-M has a nice top end , where >>>> as Neundo has a nice flatter sound quality. >>>> Same audio interface. M-audio 410..Using Mackies & Blue-Sky pro monitors.. >>>> >>>> Same test at the big room..PT-HD & Neundo Logic Audio(macG5-Dual) Using >> >>>> the >>>> 192 interface. >>>> Same results..But adding Logic audio's sound ..(Broad, thick) >>>> >>>> Somethings going on. >>>> >>>> Chucks post about how paris handles audio is a theory..Only Edmund can >> >>>> truly >>>> give us the goods on what's really what.. >>>> >>>> I disagree that manufactuers don;t set out o put a sonic print on their >> >>>> products. >>>> I think they do. >>>> >>>> I have been fortunate to work on some digital mixers and I can tell you >> >>>> that >>>> each one has their own sound. The Sony Dmx-100 was modeled after SSL >4000g >>>> (like it's Big Brother).And you what? That board (Dmx-100) sound very >>warm >>>> and it's eq tries to behave and sound just like an SSL.. Unlike he Yamaha >>>> Dm2000(version 1.x) which has a very Clean, neutral sound..However, some >>>> complained that it was tooo Vanila and thus, Yamaha add a version 2.0 >> >>>> which >>>> added Vintage type Eq's, modeled analog input gain saturation fx too >give >>>> the user a choice Btw Clean and Neutral vs sonic Character. >>>> >>>> So, if digital conoles can be given a sonic character, why not a software >>>> mixer? >>>> The truth is, there are some folks who want a neutral mixer and then >there >>>> are others who want a sonic footprint imparted. and these can be coded >>in >>>> the digital realm. >>>> The apllies with th…
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-19T04:51:12-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: or costing >> >>>>>$15k, >>>> >>>>>so what they >>>>>lack in actual synthesis capabilities, they make up with EQ and effects >>>> on >>>>>the output. That's been the case >>>>>for years, at least since we had effects on synths at least. But even >> >>>>>with >>>> >>>>>modern synths such as the Fantom, >>>>>Tritons, etc, which are great synths all around, of course the coolest, >>>> >>>>>widest and biggest patches >>>>>will make the biggest impression - so in come the EQs, limiters, comps, >>>> >>>>>reverbs, chorus, etc. The best >>>>>way to find out if a synth is really good is to bypass all effects and >>see >>>> >>>>>what happens. Most are pretty >>>>>good these days, but about half the time, there are presets that fall >>>>>completely flat in fx bypass. >>>>> >>>>>DAWs aren't designed to put a sonic fingerprint on a sound the way synths >>>> >>>>>are - they are designed >>>>>to *not* add anything - to pass through what we create as users, with >>no >>>> >>>>>alteration (or as little as possible) >>>>>beyond what we add with intentional processing (EQ, comps, etc). >>>>>Developers >>>> >>>>>would find no pride >>>>>in hearing that their DAW sounds anything different than whatever is >being >>>> >>>>>played back in it, >>>>>and the concept is contrary to what AES and IEEE proceedings on the issue >>>> >>>>>propose in general >>>>>digital audio discussions, white papers, etc. >>>>> >>>>>What ID ended up doing with Paris (at least from what I gather per Chuck's >>>> >>>>>findings - so correct me if I'm missing part of the equation Chuck), >>>>>is drop the track gain by 20dB or so, then added it back at the master >> >>>>>buss >>>> >>>>>to create the effect of headroom (probably >>>>>because the master buss is really summing on the card, and they have >more >>>> >>>>>headroom there than on the tracks >>>>>where native plugins might be used). I don't know if Paris passed 32-bit >>>> >>>>>float files to the EDS card, but sort of >>>>>doubt it. I think Chuck has clarifie…
creator: Aaron Allen
date: 2006-11-19T06:44:06-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: >>>>decent emulation (with convolution, dynamic EQ functions, >>>>>>>etc). For sake of not eating up all cpu processing, that could likely >>>> >>>>>>>only >>>>>> >>>>>>>surface as is a built in EQ, which >>>>>>>no one wants universally in summing, and anyone can add at will already. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>So it hasn't happened yet and isn't likely to as it detours from the >> >>>>>>>basic >>>>>> >>>>>>>tenant of audio recording - recreate what comes in as >>>>>>>accurately as possible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>What Digi did in recoding their summing engine was try to recover some >>>>>>>of the damage done by the 24-bit buss in Mix systems. Motorola 56k >dsps >>>>>> are >>>>>>>24-bit fixed point chips and I think >>>>>>>the new generation (321?) still is, but they use double words now for >>>>>>>48-bits). And though plugins could process at 48-bit by >>>>>>>doubling up and using upper and lower 24-bit words for 48-bit outputs, >>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>>buss >>>>>>>between chips was 24-bits, so they had to dither to 24-bits after every >>>>>> >>>>>>>plugin. The mixer (if I recall correctly) also >>>>>>>had a 24-bit buss, so what Digi did is to add a dither stage to the >> >>>>>>>mixer >>>>>> to >>>>>>>prevent this >>>>>>>constant truncation of data. 24-bits isn't enough to cover summing >>for >>>>>> more >>>>>>>than a few tracks without >>>>>>>losing information in the 16-bit world, and in the 24-bit world some >>>>>>>information will be lost, at least at the lowest levels. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Adding a dither stage (though I think they did more than that - perhaps >>>>>> >>>>>>>implement a 48-bit double word stage as well), >>>>>>>simply smoothed over the truncation that was happening, but it didn't >>>> >>>>>>>solve >>>>>> >>>>>>>the problem, so with HD >>>>>>>they went to a double-word path - throughout I believe, including the >>>> path >>>>>> >>>>>>>between chips. I believe the chips >>>>>>>are still 24-bit, but by doubling up the processing (yes at a cost >of >>>> >>>>>>>twice >>>>>> >>>…
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-19T14:38:22-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: ring summing. The hardware can >>significantly change >>what we hear, so comparing digital mixers really isn't of as much interest > >>as comparing native >>DAWs in that respect - unless you are looking to buy one of course. >> >>Even though I know you think manufacturers are trying to add something to > >>give them an edge, I am 100% >>sure that isn't the case - rather they are trying to add or change as little > >>as possible in order to give >>them the edge. Their end of digital audio isn't about recreating the past, > >>but improving upon it. >>As we've discussed and agreed before, the obsession with recreating >>"vintage" technology is as much >>fad as it is a valuable creative asset. There is no reason we shouldn't > >>have far superior hardware and software EQs and comps >>than 20, 30 or 40 years ago. No reason at all, other than market demand, > >>but the majority of software, and new >>hardware gear on the market has a vintage marketing tagline with it. >>Companies will sell any bill of >>goods if customers will buy it. >> >>There's nothing unique about the summing in Nuendo, Cubase, Sequoia/Samp, >>or Sonar, and it's pretty safe to include Logic and DP in that list as well. > >>One of the reasons I test >>these things is to be sure my DAW isn't doing something wrong, or something > >>I don't know about. >> >>Vegas - I use it for video conversions and have never done any critical > >>listening tests with it. What I have heard >>briefly didn't sound any different. It certainly looks plain vanilla >>though. What you are describing is exactly >>what I would say about the GUIs of each of those apps, not that it means > >>anything. Just interesting. >> >>That's one reason I listen eyes closed and double check with phase >>cancellation tests and FFTs - I am >>influenced creatively by the GUI to some degree. I actually like Cubase >4's >>GUI better than Nuendo 3.2, >>though there are only slight visual differences (some workflow differences > >>are a definite impr…
creator: TCB
date: 2006-11-19T20:26:19-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: ;at Lynn Fuston's >>>>D/A converter shootout - when do you lock to external clock and incur >the >>> >>>>resulting jitter, >>>>and when do you trust the internal clock - and if you do lock externally, >>> >>>>how good is the PLL >>>>in the slave device? These issues can cause audible changes in the top >>> end >>>>that have nothing to do >>>>with the software itself. If you say that PTHD through the same converter >>> >>>>output as Nuendo (via? RME? >>>>Lynx?) using the same master clock, sounds different playing a single > >>>>audio >>> >>>>file, then I take your word >>>>for it. I can't tell you why that is happening - only that an audible >>>>difference really shouldn't happen due >>>>to the software alone - not with a single audio file, esp. since I've > >>>>heard >>> >>>>and seen PTHD audio cancel with >>>>native DAWs. Just passing a single 16 or 24 bit track down the buss >to >>> the >>>>output driver should >>>>be, and usually is, completely transparent, bit for bit. >>>> >>>>The same audio file played through the same converters should only sound >>> >>>>different if something in >>>>the chain is different - be it clocking, gain or some degree of >>>>unintended, >>> >>>>errant dsp processing. Every DAW should >>>>pass a single audio file without altering a single bit. That's a basic > >>>>level >>> >>>>of accuracy we should always >>>>expect of any DAW. If that accuracy isn't there, you can be sure a heavy >>> >>>>mix will be altered in ways you >>>>didn't intend, even though you would end up mixing with that factor in > >>>>place >>> >>>>(e.g. you still mix for what >>>>you want to hear regardless of what the platform does to each audio track >>> or >>>>channel). >>>> >>>>In fact you should be able to send a stereo audio track out SPDIF or >>>>lightpipe to another DAW, record it >>>>bring the recorded file back in, line them up to the first bit, and have >>> >>>>them cancel on and inverted phase >>>>test. I did this with Nuendo and Cubase 4 on separate mach…
creator: Morgan
date: 2006-11-19T22:18:50-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: ent than whatever is being >>> >>>>played back in it, >>>>and the concept is contrary to what AES and IEEE proceedings on the issue >>> >>>>propose in general >>>>digital audio discussions, white papers, etc. >>>> >>>>What ID ended up doing with Paris (at least from what I gather per Chuck's >>> >>>>findings - so correct me if I'm missing part of the equation Chuck), >>>>is drop the track gain by 20dB or so, then added it back at the master > >>>>buss >>> >>>>to create the effect of headroom (probably >>>>because the master buss is really summing on the card, and they have more >>> >>>>headroom there than on the tracks >>>>where native plugins might be used). I don't know if Paris passed 32-bit >>> >>>>float files to the EDS card, but sort of >>>>doubt it. I think Chuck has clarified this at one point, but don't recall >>> >>>>the answer. >>>> >>>>Also what Paris did is use a greater bit depth on the hardware than >>>>ProTools >>> >>>>did - at the time PT was just >>>>bring Mix+ systems to market, or they had been out for a year or two (if >>> I >>>>have my timeline right) - they >>>>were 24-bit fixed all the way through. Logic and Cubase were native DAWs, >>> >>>>but native was still too slow >>>>to compete with hardware hybrids. Paris trumped them all by running >>>>32-bit >>> >>>>float natively (not new really, but >>>>better than sticking to 24-bit) and 56 or so bits in hardware instead >of >>> >>>>going to Motorola DSPs at 24. >>>>The onboard effects were also a step up from anything out there, so the >>> demo >>>>did sound good. >>>>I don't recall which, but one of the demos, imho, wasn't so good (some >>>>sloppy production and >>>>vocals in spots, IIRC), so I only listened to it once. ;-) >>>> >>>>Coupled with the gain drop and buss makeup, this all gave it a "headroom" >>> no >>>>one else had. With very nice >>>>onboard effects, Paris jumped ahead of anything else out there easily, >and >>> >>>>still respectably holds its' own today >>>>in that department. >…
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-19T22:22:57-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: t;>> >>>>for sure, but synths are about >>>>character and getting that "perfect piano" or crystal clear bell pad, >or >>> fat >>>>punchy bass without spending >>>>a mint on development, adding 50G onboard sample libraries, or costing > >>>>$15k, >>> >>>>so what they >>>>lack in actual synthesis capabilities, they make up with EQ and effects >>> on >>>>the output. That's been the case >>>>for years, at least since we had effects on synths at least. But even > >>>>with >>> >>>>modern synths such as the Fantom, >>>>Tritons, etc, which are great synt
creator: TCB
date: 2006-11-19T23:10:55-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: k in 1997 when I heard Paris. I was floored!!! Still >>> to >>>>> this day, nothing has floored me like that "Road House Blues Demo" I > >>>>> heard >>>>> on Paris. >>>>> >>>>> Was it the hardware ? was it the software. I remember talking with >>>>> Edmund >>>>> at the 2000 winter Namm, and told me that he & Steve set out to >>>>> reproduce >>>>> the sonics of big buck analog board (eq's) and all.. And, summ
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-19T23:15:00-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: t;> We live in the "louder is better" audio world these days, so a DAW that >>> >>>>> can >>>>> catch my attention 'sonically" will probaly will get the sell. That's >>> what >>>>> happend to me bac
creator: Neil
date: 2006-11-19T23:53:02-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: ing was >>> a >>>>> big >>>>> big issue for them because they (ID) thought that nobody has gotten >>>>> it(summing) >>>>> right. And by right, they meant, behaved like a console with a wide >lane >>>>> for all of those tracks.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>&g
creator: Neil
date: 2006-11-20T01:09:54-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: t; >>>>> >>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dedric@echomg.com> wrote: >>>>>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message >>>>>>news:458be8d5$1@linux... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Okay... >>>>>>> I guess what I'm saying is this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Is it possible that diferent DAW manufactuers "code" their app >>>>>>> differently >>
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-20T01:59:47-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: if >>>>>>there areany differences in where each amplitude level is quantized. >>>>>> >>>>>>Obviously there can be differences if the DAW has to use varying bit >>>>>>depths >>>>> >>>>>>throughout a single summing path to accomodate hardware >>>>>>as well as software summing, since there may be truncation or rounding >>> >>>>>>along >>>>> >>>>>>the way, but that impacts the lowest bit >>>>>>level, and hence - spacial reproduction, reverb tails perhaps, and >>>>>>"depth", >>>>> >>>>>>not the levels most music so the differences are most >>>>>>often more subtle than not. But most modern DAWs have eliminated those >>>>> >>>>>>"rough edges" in the math by increasing the bit depth to accomodate > >>>>>>normal >>>>> >>>>>>summing required for mixing audio. >>>>>> >>>>>>So with Lynn's unity gain summing test (A files on the CD I believe), >>> DAWs >>&
creator: Dedric Terry
date: 2006-11-20T02:25:45-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: >>>>> for sound results. >>>>>> >>>>>>Of course it is *possible* to do this, but only if the DAW has a >>>>>>specific >>>>> >>>>>>sound shaping purpose >>>>>>beyond normal summing/mixing. Users talk about wanting developers to >>> add >>>>> a >>>>>>"Neve sound" or "API sound" option to summing engines, >>>>>>but that's really impractical given the amount of dsp required to make >>> a >>>>> >>>>>>decent emulation (with convolution, dynamic EQ functions, >>>>>>etc). For sake of not eating up all cpu processing, that could likely >>> >>>>>>only >>>>> >>>>>>surface as is a built in EQ, which >>>>>>no one wants universally in summing, and anyone can add at will already. >>>>>> >>>>>>So it hasn't happened yet and isn't likely to as it detours from the > >>>>>>basic >>>>> >>>>>>tenant of audio recording - recreate what comes in as >>>>>>accurately as possible. >>>>>> >>>>>>What Digi did in recoding their summing engine was try to recover some >>>>>>of the damage done by the 24-bit buss in Mix systems. Motorola 56k dsps >>>>> are >>>>>>24-bit fixed point chips and I think >>>>>>the new generation (321?) still is, but they use double words now for >>>>>>48-bits). And though plugins could process at 48-bit by >>>>>>doubling up and using upper and lower 24-bit words for 48-bit outputs, >>> the >>>>> >>>>>>buss >>>>>>between chips was 24-bits, so they had to dither to 24-bits after every >>>>> >>>>>>plugin. The mixer (if I recall correctly) also >>>>>>had a 24-bit buss, so what Digi did is to add a dither stage to the > >>>>>>mixer >>>>> to >>>>>>prevent this >>>>>>constant truncation of data. 24-bits isn't enough to cover summing >for >>>>> more >>>>>>than a few tracks without >>>>>>losing information in the 16-bit world, and in the 24-bit world some >>>>>>information will be lost, at least at the lowest levels. >>>>>> >>>>>>Adding a dither stage (though I think they did more than that - perhaps >>>>> >>>>>>implement a 48-bit double word stage as well), >>>>>>simply smoothed o…
creator: Aaron Allen
date: 2006-11-20T02:28:18-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: gt;>> >>>>>>were never asked to sum beyond 24-bits, >>>>>>at least not on the upper end of the dynamic range, so everything that >>> >>>>>>could >>>>> >>>>>>represent 24-bits accurately would cancel. The only ones >>>>>>that didn't were ones that had a different bit depth and/or gain >>>>>>structure >>>>> >>>>>>whether hybrid or native >>>>>>(e.g. Paris' subtracting 20dB from tracks and adding it to the buss). >>> In >>>>> >>>>>>this case, PTHD cancelled (when I tested it) with >>>>>>Nuendo, Samplitude, Logic, etc because the impact of the 48-bit fixed >>> vs. >>>>> >>>>>>32-bit float wasn't a factor. >>>>>> >>>>>>When trying other tests, even when adding and subtracting gain, Nuendo, >>>>> >>>>>>Sequoia and Sonar cancel - both audibly and >>>>>>visually at inaudible levels, which only proves that one isn't making >>> an >>>>> >>>>>>error when calculating basic gain. Since a dB is well defined, >>>>>>and the math to add gain is simple, they shouldn't. The fact that they >>>>> all >>>>>>use 32-bit float all the way through eliminates a difference >>>>>>in data structure as well, and this just verifies that. There was a > >>>>>>time >>>>> >>>>>>that supposedly Logic (v3, v4?) was partly 24-bit, or so the rumor went, >>>>>>but it's 32-bit float all
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-20T02:33:37-00:00

Re: Man, I've found a workaround!!!!
type: item
description: mixing from which users can make all >>>>>>of the decisions as to how the final product will sound and not be >>>>>>required >>>>> >>>>>>to decide when purchasing a pricey console, and have to >>>>>>focus their business on clients who want "that sound". I believe we >are >>>>> >>>>>>actually closer to the pure definition of recording now than >>>>>>we once were. >>>>>> >>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>Dedric >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I the answer is yes, then,the real task is to discover or rather >>>>>>> un-cover >>>>>>> what's say: Motu's vision of summing, versus Digidesign, versus >>>>>>> Steinberg >>>>>>> and so on.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's under the hood. To me and others,when Digi re-coded their >>>>>>> summing >>>>>>> engine, it was obvious that Pro Tools has an obvious top end (8k-10k) >>>>> >>>>>>> bump. >>>>>>> Where as Steinberg's summing is very neutral. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dedric@echomg.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>Hi Neil, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Jamie is right. And you aren't wacked out - you are thinking this >>>>>>>>through >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>in a reasonable manner, but coming to the wrong >>>>>>>>conclusion - easy to do given how confusing digital audio can be. > >>>>>>>>Each >>>>>>> word >>>>>>>>represents an amplitude >>>>>>>>point on a single curve that is changing over time, and can vary with >>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>speed up to the Nyquist frequency (as Jamie described). >>>>>>>>The complex harmonic content we hear is actually the frequency >>>>>>>>modulation >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>a single waveform, >>>>>>>>that over a small amount of time creates the sound we translate - >we >>> >>>>>>>>don't >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>really hear a single sample at a time, >>>>>>>>but thousands of samples at a time (1 sample alone could at most >>>>>>>>represent >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>single positive or negative peak >>>>>>>>of a 22,050Hz waveform). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If one bit doesn't cancel, esp. if it's a higher order bit than number >>>>> 24, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>you may hear, and will see that…
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-20T02:54:29-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: ;>>>>>>the same start point, sample >>>>>>>>accurately, and both are the same set of sample words at each sample >>>>>>>>point, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>bit for bit, and one is phase inverted, >>>>>>>>they will cancel through all 24 bits. For two files to cancel >>>>>>>>completely >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>for the duration of the file, each and every bit in each word >>>>>>>>must be the exact opposite of that same bit position in a word at >the >>>>> same >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>sample point. This is why zooming in on an FFT >>>>>>>>of the full difference file is valuable as it can show any differences >>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>the lower order bits that wouldn't be audible. So even if >>>>>>>>there is no audible difference, the visual followup will show if the >>> two >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>files truly cancel even a levels below hearing, or >>>>>>>>outside of a frequency change that we will perceive. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>When they don't cancel, usually there will be way more than 1 bit >>>>>>>>difference - it's usually one or more bits in the words for >>>>>>>>thousands of samples. From a musical standpoint this is usually in >>> a >>>>>>>>frequency range (low freq, or high freq most often) - that will >>>>>>>>show up as the difference between them, and that usually happens due >>> to >>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>form of processing difference between the files, >>>>>>>>such as EQ, compression, frequency dependant gain changes, etc. That >>> is >>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>I believe you are thinking through, but when >>>>>>>>talking about straight summing with no gain change (or known equal > >>>>>>>>gain >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>changes), we are only looking at linear, one for one >>>>>>>>comparisons between the two files' frequency representations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>Dedric >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Neil wrote: >>>>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dedric@echomg.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> The tests I did were completely blank down to -200 dB (far below >>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> bit). It's safe to say the…
creator: Dedric Terry
date: 2006-11-20T03:21:41-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: the way through now just as Sonar, >>>>>>Nuendo/Cubase, >>>>> >>>>>>Samplitude/Sequoia, DP, Audition (I presume at least). >>>>>>I don't know what Acid or Live use. Saw promotes a fixed point engine, >>>>> but >>>>>>I don't know if it is still 24-bit, or now 48 bit. >>>>>>That was an intentional choice by the developer, but he's the only one >>> I >>>>> >>>>>>know of that stuck with 24-bit for summing >>>>>>intentionally, esp. after the Digi Mix system mixer incident. >>>>>> >>>>>>Long answer, but to sum up, it is certainly physically *possible* for >>> a >>>>> >>>>>>developer to code something differently intentionally, but not >>>>>>in reality likely since it would be breaking some basic fixed point >or >>>>>>floating point math rules. Where the differences really >>>>>>showed up in the past is with PT Mix systems where the limitation was >>> >>>>>>really >>>>> >>>>>>significant - e.g. 24 bit with truncation at several stages. >>>>>> >>>>>>That really isn't such an issue anymore. Given the differences in >>>>>>workflow, >>>>> >>>>>>missing something in workflow or layout differences >>>>>>is easy enough to do (e.g. Sonar doesn't have group and busses the way >>>>>>Nuendo does, as it's outputs are actually driver outputs, >>>>>>not software busses, so in Sonar, busses are actually outputs, and sub >>>>>>busses are actually busses in Nuendo. There are no, >>>>>>or at least I haven't found the equivalent of a Nuendo group in Sonar >>> - >>>>> that >>>>>>affects the results of some tests (though not basic >>>>>>summing) if not taken into account, but when taken into account, they >>> work >>>>> >>>>>>exactly the same way). >>>>>> >>>>>>So at least when talking about apps with 32-bit float all the way >>>>>>through, >>>>> >>>>>>it's safe to say (since it has been proven) that summing isn't different >>>>> >>>>>>unless >>>>>>there is an error somewhere, or variation in how the user duplicates >the >>>>> >>>>>>same mix in two different apps. >>>>>> >>>>>>Imho, that's act…
creator: TCB
date: 2006-11-20T03:26:50-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: t;>>>>> #12, for example? Everything on bit #12 should be audible, but >>>>>>>>>> in an a/b test what if thre are differences in what bits #8 >>>>>>>>>> through #12 sound like, but the amplutide is stll the same on >>>>>>>>>> both files at that point, you'll get a null, right? Extrapolate >>>>>>>>>> that out somewhat & let's say there are differences in bits #8 >>>>>>>>>> through #12 on sample points 3, 17, 1,000, 4,523, 7,560, etc, >>>>>>>>>> etc through 43,972... Now this is breaking things down well >>>>>>>>>> beyond what I think can be measured, if I'm not mistaken (I >>>>>>>>>> dn't know of any way we could extract JUST that information >>>>>>>>>> from each file & play it back for an a/b test; but would not >>>>>>>>>> that be enough to have to "null-able" files that do actually >>>>>>>>>> sound somewhat different? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I guess what I'm saying is that since each sample in a musical >>>>>>>>>> track or full song file doesn't represent a pure, simple set of >>>>>>>>>> content like a sample of a sine wave would - there's a whole >>>>>>>>>> world of harmonic structure in each sample of a song file, and >>>>>>>>>> I think (although I'll admit - I can't "prove") that there is >>>>>>>>>> plenty of room for some variables between the first bit & the >>>>>>>>>> last bit while still allowing for a null test to be successful. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No? Am I wacked out of my mind? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Neil >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >Glad you are liking it Thad. After all my cheerleading and then Neil's experience, I've sorta been dreading what would happen next and I've been having dreams of my lurching through cobblestoned streets in a Carpathian mountain village muttering guturally while being pursued by an enraged mob of Parisites dressed as impoverished Bavarian elves, waving torches and brandishing axes and pitchforks. ;o) "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:458d9913$1@linux... > > Hey all, > > This…
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-20T03:48:52-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: /> > shortcuts > to switch virtual desktops will help a good bit. > > Which also brings up the one complaint I have about the CW card, the DSPs > do get chewed up pretty quickly and they don't seem too smart. That is, if > I open up a Prophet the DSP load goes up even when it's not doing > anything. > Most native plugs these days only take resources when they have something > to do. I'm quite sure I could use two 14 DSP cards without trying too > hard. > Again, it will just involve a little time learning to manage the workflow > and I'm willing to do that for synths and f/x this good. > > Paired up with a UAD card it's a damned impressive system. I might spring > for another one of each, using the UAD for vintage type f/x and the CW for > mixing and synths. I gotta say, it's a pretty enjoyable, creative > combination. > > > Now that I like it, we'll see CW out of business soon. > > TCBoops hey, I know most of you guys are not Punk fans but you should still check out The Shods. They were one of Boston's biggest around the turn of the century. Fantastic song writing killer harmonies and playing. They toured with the Bostones and Weezer ripped em off. They have since pretty much split due to the lead man's MS. I am putting out their back catalog starting with their F#ck Off MCA album Bamboozled, which I recorded on my 1"machine and Mackie board way back.8 buss Here is the link: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum? id=209035538&s=143441 They and I can use the support! The Thanks for nuthin' CD is up against their will and they are receiving no $$ from it yet,The crossover cable may be important, but most modern NIC cards are auto sensing so they'll work out what cable is being used and adjust appropriately. -- Martin Harrington www.lendanear-sound.com "Neil" <OIUIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:458d4915$1@linux... > > Mike, Martin's right about the Windoze netowrking Wizard... I > did this recently between two PC's & it took mere moments to get …
creator: JeffH
date: 2006-11-20T03:59:49-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: > >> >I love it cujo!!..Good work. The band is smokin. I'll get acopy this holliday weekend.. LAMont "cujo" <chris@applemanstudio.com> wrote: > >oops > >hey, I know most of you guys are not Punk fans but you should still check >out >The Shods. They were one of Boston's biggest around the turn of the century. >Fantastic song writing killer harmonies and playing. They toured with the >Bostones and Weezer ripped em off. They have since pretty much split due >to the lead man's MS. > >I am putting out their back catalog starting with their F#ck Off MCA album >Bamboozled, which I recorded on my 1"machine and Mackie board way back.8 >buss > >Here is the link: > http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum? id=209035538&s=143441 > >They and I can use the support! >The Thanks for nuthin' CD is up against their will and they are receiving >no $$ from it yet,I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I've been working on songs for the past few hours again and it's a devilishly enjoyable system. This is all on my own electronic stuff. The CW gear might fade into the background a bit if I start mixing Mold Monkies tunes, but then again it might not. I can see the delays and reverbs on the CW card being useful in that context. Thanks for doing the ranger work on this one. I was talking once to a Yale computer person about a very young free software project I was using in production. He said an early adopter was a person who crossed the bridge first, but that I was ploughing straight through the river in a shitty old jeep. I took that as a compliment though I don't think it was intended as one. You did the jeep work on this one and I appreciate it. TCB "DJ" <nowayjose@dude.net> wrote: >Glad you are liking it Thad. After all my cheerleading and then Neil's >experience, I've sorta been dreading what would happen next and I've been >having dreams of my lurching through cobblestoned streets in a Carpathian >mountain village muttering guturally while being pursued by an enr…
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-20T04:09:01-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: for doing the ranger work on this one. I was talking once to a Yale > computer person about a very young free software project I was using in > production. > He said an early adopter was a person who crossed the bridge first, but > that > I was ploughing straight through the river in a shitty old jeep. I took > that > as a compliment though I don't think it was intended as one. You did the > jeep work on this one and I appreciate it. > > TCB > > "DJ" <nowayjose@dude.net> wrote: >>Glad you are liking it Thad. After all my cheerleading and then Neil's >>experience, I've sorta been dreading what would happen next and I've been > >>having dreams of my lurching through cobblestoned streets in a Carpathian > >>mountain village muttering guturally while being pursued by an enraged mob > >>of Parisites dressed as impoverished Bavarian elves, waving torches and > >>brandishing axes and pitchforks. >> >>;o) >> >> >>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:458d9913$1@linux... >>> >>> Hey all, >>> >>> This should be taken with some grains of salt, which if you remember are >>> quite a bit larger than the ticks on a 100 mm fader using a 14 bit MIDI > >>> stream, >>> but so far I'm really knocked out by the Creamware card. Keep in mind > that >>> it's been shown here that I'm deaf, not a 'pro,' and can't hear the >>> difference >>> between different brands of USB flash drives. I use a PNY when some >>> people >>> claim the SanDisks are punchier. The big problem I had with the CW gear > >>> before >>> was stability, and it's only been a day but so far absolutely rock >>> solid. >>> 'Cause I'm deaf I only use 44.1 so I don't have clocking issues. >>> >>> I remembered the synths as being spectacular and they are much better > than >>> I remember. Frankly I don't think I've heard digital synthesis done >>> better, >>> with the possible exception of the OASYS PCI card, but I think I'd still >>> give the CW gear the edge. Keep in mind I've owned a fair amount of >>> Waldorf, >>>…
creator: JeffH
date: 2006-11-20T04:30:50-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: tions below 24 bits that I saw (and thought were above >>24-bits at one point) are correlation of lower frequencies when gain and >>equivalent reduction are introduced (which is what Chuck stated that Paris >>does up front on every track). That really doesn't impact the audio itself >>since data below -136dB is quantization noise for 24-bit audio. >> >>Sonar, Nuendo, Cubase 4 and Sequoia all behaved exactly the same way in >this >>test - which tells me they are handling the LSB's the same way. When data >>is summed to groups, there will be quantization noise below -136dB. This >>is completely normal for any native DAW and they all are subject to it. > >>As you might read in the thread my conclusion was that we proved digital >>audio theory exists - e.g. no uncharted territory, no digital audio frontiers, >>no bugs in Nuendo. yeeha. But that's what I get for second guessing talented >>developers. ;-) >> >>Fwiw, to take it a step further, Samplitude/Sequoia and Nuendo handle overs, >>or "into the red" identically. I checked that too a while back after the >>reports of extra headroom, etc in Samplitude. Believe me, I've tried hard >>to find where any differences might appear, not just noticeable differences, >>but any differences at the lowest levels, but it seems the major native >DAW >>players are making the same decisions when it comes to truncation, etc, >and >>there really aren't that many to make. In my tests, dither really wasn't >>an issue (I turned it off in all DAWs I tested just to test with pure truncation). >> >>Regards, >>Dedric >> >>"LaMOnt" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote: >>> >>>Dedric, check out this post from our dear friend Fredo: Neundo Moderator: >>>Explaining how Steingberg's audio engine works. Note the trade-offs..Meaning, >>>Steinberg's way of coding an audio-engine 32bit float is different than >>say >>>Magix Samplitude: >>> >>>Fredo >>>Administrative Moderator >>> >>> >>>Joined: 29 Dec 2004 >>>Posts: 4213 >>>Location: Belgium >>> Posted: Fri De…
creator: Dedric Terry
date: 2006-11-20T04:40:18-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: >>>> >>>>> Same test at the big room..PT-HD & Neundo Logic Audio(macG5-Dual) Using >>> >>>>> the >>>>> 192 interface. >>>>> Same results..But adding Logic audio's sound ..(Broad, thick) >>>>> >>>>> Somethings going on. >>>>> >>>>> Chucks post about how paris handles audio is a theory..Only Edmund can >>> >>>>> truly >>>>> give us the goods on what's really what.. >>>>> >>>>> I disagree that manufactuers don;t set out o put a sonic print on their >>> >>>>> products. >>>>> I think they do. >>>>> >>>>> I have been fortunate to work on some digital mixers and I can tell >you >>> >>>>> that >>>>> each one has their own sound. The Sony Dmx-100 was modeled after SSL >>4000g >>>>> (like it's Big Brother).And you what? That board (Dmx-100) sound very >>>warm >>>>> and it's eq tries to behave and sound just like an SSL.. Unlike he Yamaha >>>>> Dm2000(version 1.x) which has a very Clean, neutral sound..However, >some >>>>> complained that it was tooo Vanila and thus, Yamaha add a version 2.0 >>> >>>>> which >>>>> added Vintage type Eq's, modeled analog input gain saturation fx too >>give >>>>> the user a choice Btw Clean and Neutral vs sonic Character. >>>>> >>>>> So, if digital conoles can be given a sonic character, why not a software >>>>> mixer? >>>>> The truth is, there are some folks who want a neutral mixer and then >>there >>>>> are others who want a sonic footprint imparted. and these can be coded >>>in >>>>> the digital realm. >>>>> The apllies with the manufactuers. They too have their vision on what >>>They >>>>> think and want their product to sound. >>>>> >>>>> I love reading on gearslutz the posts from Plugin developers and their >>> >>>>> interpretations >>>>> and opinions about what makes their Neve 1073 Eq better and what goes >>>into >>>>> making their version sound like it does.. Each Developer has a different >>>>> vision as to what the Neve 1073 should sound like. And yet they all >sound >>>>> good , but slightly different. >>>>> >>>>> You stated that you…
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-20T05:03:15-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: br /> >>>>>>Also what Paris did is use a greater bit depth on the hardware than > >>>>>>ProTools >>>>> >>>>>>did - at the time PT was just >>>>>>bring Mix+ systems to market, or they had been out for a year or two >>(if >>>>> I >>>>>>have my timeline right) - they >>>>>>were 24-bit fixed all the way through. Logic and Cubase were native >>DAWs, >>>>> >>>>>>but native was still too slow >>>>>>to compete with hardware hybrids. Paris trumped them all by running >> >>>>>>32-bit >>>>> >>>>>>float natively (not new really, but >>>>>>better than sticking to 24-bit) and 56 or so bits in hardware instead >>>of >>>>> >>>>>>going to Motorola DSPs at 24. >>>>>>The onboard effects were also a step up from anything out there, so >the >>>>> demo >>>>>>did sound good. >>>>>>I don't recall which, but one of the demos, imho, wasn't so good (some >>>>>>sloppy production and >>>>>>vocals in spots, IIRC), so I only listened to it once. ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>>Coupled with the gain drop and buss makeup, this all gave it a "headroom" >>>>> no >>>>>>one else had. With very nice >>>>>>onboard effects, Paris jumped ahead of anything else out there easily, >>>and >>>>> >>>>>>still respectably holds its' own today >>>>>>in that department. >>>>>> >>>>>>Most demos I hear (when I listen to them) vary in quality, usually not >>>so >>>>> >>>>>>great in some area. But if a demo does >>>>>>sound great, then it at least says that the product is capable of at >>> >>>>>>least >>>>> >>>>>>that level of performance, and it can >>>>>>only help improve a prospective buyer's impression of it. >>>>>> >>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>Dedric >>>>>> >>>>>>"LaMont " <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:458c14c0$1@linux... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dedric good post.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> However, I have PT-M-Powered/M-audio 410 interface for my laptop and >>>it >>>>> >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> that same sound (no eq, zero fader) that HD does. I know their use >>the >>>>> >>>>>>> same >>>>>>> 48 bit fix mixer. I load up the same file in Nuendo (n…
creator: JeffH
date: 2006-11-20T05:23:27-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: th to add gain is simple, they shouldn't. The fact that >>they >>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>use 32-bit float all the way through eliminates a difference >>>>>>>>in data structure as well, and this just verifies that. There was >>a >>> >>>>>>>>time >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>that supposedly Logic (v3, v4?) was partly 24-bit, or so the rumor >>went, >>>>>>>>but it's 32-bit float all the way through now just as Sonar, >>>>>>>>Nuendo/Cubase, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Samplitude/Sequoia, DP, Audition (I presume at least). >>>>>>>>I don't know what Acid or Live use. Saw promotes a fixed point engine, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>I don't know if it is still 24-bit, or now 48 bit. >>>>>>>>That was an intentional choice by the developer, but he's the only >>one >>>>> I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>know of that stuck with 24-bit for summing >>>>>>>>intentionally, esp. after the Digi Mix system mixer incident. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Long answer, but to sum up, it is certainly physically *possible* >for >>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>developer to code something differently intentionally, but not >>>>>>>>in reality likely since it would be breaking some basic fixed point >>>or >>>>>>>>floating point math rules. Where the differences really >>>>>>>>showed up in the past is with PT Mix systems where the limitation >was >>>>> >>>>>>>>really >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>significant - e.g. 24 bit with truncation at several stages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>That really isn't such an issue anymore. Given the differences in >>>>>>>>workflow, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>missing something in workflow or layout differences >>>>>>>>is easy enough to do (e.g. Sonar doesn't have group and busses the >>way >>>>>>>>Nuendo does, as it's outputs are actually driver outputs, >>>>>>>>not software busses, so in Sonar, busses are actually outputs, and >>sub >>>>>>>>busses are actually busses in Nuendo. There are no, >>>>>>>>or at least I haven't found the equivalent of a Nuendo group in Sonar >>>>> - >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>affects the results of some tests (though not basic >>>>>>>>summing) if not t…
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-20T05:32:11-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: t;>>>>>>>>>>> I guess what I'm saying is that since each sample in a musical >>>>>>>>>>>> track or full song file doesn't represent a pure, simple set >of >>>>>>>>>>>> content like a sample of a sine wave would - there's a whole >>>>>>>>>>>> world of harmonic structure in each sample of a song file, and >>>>>>>>>>>> I think (although I'll admit - I can't "prove") that there is >>>>>>>>>>>> plenty of room for some variables between the first bit & the >>>>>>>>>>>> last bit while still allowing for a null test to be successful. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> No? Am I wacked out of my mind? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Neil >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >"DJ" <nowayjose@dude.net> wrote: >Glad you are liking it Thad. After all my cheerleading and >then Neil's experience, I've sorta been dreading what would >happen next Well, my experience has now changed... I finished the install of the Pulsar card into the same PC as is running my Paris rig WinME machine,and it gave me some shit at first (driver loaded fine, but the install files didn't want to run.... kinda like that guy over on the Pulsar forum), anyway, finally got it to install, and once it did it went smoothly from there. This thing is running fine AND.... (wait for it) CLOCKING PERFECTLY AT 88.2K!!! Yes, sir, I can get it to clock via both S/Mux (lightpipe) OR Word Clock, and no it doesn't register 88.2k on the readout, it says "96k", but I get not one but TWO little red lock lights (one for each lightpipe input perhaps?). Now, considering it's working now, perhaps my problems with this card on the other machine had more to do with two ASIO drivers being present... it seems weird that even with one of them disabled (the RME's) this card would act up, but perhaps there was some kind of conflict nonetheless - I dunno. Or maybe it just likes WinME better than XP. In any event, yep, I can back Deej & Thad up on the stability - at least on this current setup I…
creator: JeffH
date: 2006-11-20T05:38:07-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: gital mixers all have different preamps and converters. Unless you >are >>> >>>>bypassing every >>>>EQ and converter and going digital in and out to the same converter when >>> >>>>comparing, it would be hard >>>>to say the mix engine itself sounds different than another mixer, but >taken >>> >>>>as a whole, then >>>>certainly they may very well sound different. In addition, hardware digital >>>>mixers may use a variety of different paths between the I/O, channel >>>>processing, and summing, >>>>though most are pretty much software mixers on a single chip or set of >>dsps >>> >>>>similar to ProTools, >>>>with I/O and a hardware surface attached. >>>> >>>>I know it may be hard to separate the mix engine as software in either >>a >>> >>>>native DAW >>>>or a digital mixer, from the hardware that translates the audio to something >>> >>>>we hear, >>>>but that's what is required when comparing summing. The hardware can > >>>>significantly change >>>>what we hear, so comparing digital mixers really isn't of as much interest >>> >>>>as comparing native >>>>DAWs in that respect - unless you are looking to buy one of course. >>>> >>>>Even though I know you think manufacturers are trying to add something >>to >>> >>>>give them an edge, I am 100% >>>>sure that isn't the case - rather they are trying to add or change as >little >>> >>>>as possible in order to give >>>>them the edge. Their end of digital audio isn't about recreating the >past, >>> >>>>but improving upon it. >>>>As we've discussed and agreed before, the obsession with recreating >>>>"vintage" technology is as much >>>>fad as it is a valuable creative asset. There is no reason we shouldn't >>> >>>>have far superior hardware and software EQs and comps >>>>than 20, 30 or 40 years ago. No reason at all, other than market demand, >>> >>>>but the majority of software, and new >>>>hardware gear on the market has a vintage marketing tagline with it. >>>>Companies will sell any bill of >>>>goods if customers will buy it. …
creator: TCB
date: 2006-11-20T05:39:25-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: was stumped on this one, too.) Then make sure you refresh your connections under VST Inputs & VST Outputs before you cloe that out... they all SHOULD show up in your connection options at that time. Neil I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you? http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C726F0.C0C4D4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> Hey Neil, I finally got ADATs, XTC and MIDI = functioning (no=20 crashes) with Scope not even running.&nbsp; = That's step one=20 for my implementation of the hardware.&nbsp; Once all was set = the XTC=20 seemed to&nbsp;work like regular VSTi plugins.&nbsp; It has become RME = plus.&nbsp;=20 Once I get this into the control room I'll listen to the audio = and really=20 put it through some paces. &nbsp; I am getting closer and closer.&nbsp; = <FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for the help! Tom <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> "Neil" &lt;<A = href=3D"mailto:IOUOIU@OIU.com">IOUOIU@OIU.com&gt; wrote=20 in message <A=20 = href=3D"news:458dfa7a$1@linux">news:458dfa7a$1@linux... "Tom= Bruhl"=20 &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:arpegio@comcast.net">arpegio@comcast.net&gt; = wrote: &gt; &gt; &gt;I'm glad every one is getting = somewhere.&nbsp;=20 I'm a little stumped at this =3D &gt;moment. &gt; &gt;I have = most of my=20 plugs authorized manually now.&nbsp; I have been &gt;reading the = manual and=20 futzing around but can't seem to get the &gt;ADAT routing or XTC = working=20 with SX2 on the same comp.&nbsp; Cubase has the list of plugs from = Scope=20 but they won't start up. Yeah, you have to enable them manually = -=20 sucks, huh? First of all, make sure XTC mode is enabled in=20 Pulsar... "Set"/"Settings"/"Global" submenu drop-down), then go = into=20 your Plugin Information window …
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-20T06:14:40-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system
type: item
description: LTMlLckpFAYJAAA6GO06lF7r4LEfPQv4C4UBxEqlCrVhFWr 9nYCGbmVAY5cfUKJ hYqAbNmzZ7FGatdWXwuEcFwpmesiql1heFk62/mUQd8igAcTLlT3sAurgInx SrfWb2GEkjd+LvsS Jw67UxtPOicObpF9lEEHy0yX50rDqFHzlMNa4EOtJmUD/g2kY4ncyInz7j13 nfMnw2fTboIbefJP m+O5xlIx+nDlJK2LL4s9UuuvTSp2j/x999jx4vtM/cOYcyX234kchx//ndQ5 ck32HBSRSdfeD9Xx /kfWdJW5p59EEQnWXoMIKkhaCQFkGIAjFJIBIT+87eXWfpZZNB5CGtaFQIqn kSbGPeBVIuKI19lQ WW4YaphiWSzemNoW5/hkkIg+4ljhYTjoqGOSLJb1n1JKtBajFof4c6KDVpK2 YWpKLrmikipWBmWU cKkWIpHxORgYCRmG2eWbYN6I5S/m+QbHgB5WmSWSWM7nT5tcwikooORhAWOZ UxqqJ40LKnbDhT12 yaSgp82pkBIN/aSIWmCRttIMuH0JZ45sDtqgpTJhs6aZWsTEGFgkFHWNYaK2 ySKYKb7J6jLDvfAY kJymUBVUkHppq6Rt1rokdRNq82t67xy0wrCp/vJIqa6DtslEs4neh2gz1P6V GpvDbYhttt3+xS2q hkoJbriFXFikll5+t+yD67ILim9lsoDWZ/Pq9iVCOE7Ga75/4EkCBAwzZU1e XAWcXIv8iTarD/nu utxbu4ThL7wkxsenhT+amLHFEbrr8bT/wiqxk/KemuaRMXOrwrNZoFPmjCrg 1dCFE+e4YcgLaqyu wOveLAdsDclFVGJFUjzp0M2WCKp1NqeAMxNMb5LVx2elGSrBSJ4Yi9jTafY1 y2GT7LaR4WGNcTUy bP2aEa8gltjbfBdKQysSz71yC3ZvQQ/YRfWtuMFPA35dDr2eUDjXf63N9kqK Z44kDLdFLbhP/ujV cjjiHmluup+kY+6iW2T6NsyHqTdwuuYPV9Uh6zoDZPQieV+m+ux8E3TWU9U4 vJ1jkwNpec+/A2+h aj4XMpiUnq3We+zOk6xJYpXXmY9mEvp+U/YWXpVYR92HhkrXbqWDKenkv33+ VekPTtEksOnsvjYq xe/2+VBZ1GI41jH7naB5/oMPAD8jwNcxrGFM4dkBS5dA/swvgA2sBWCQIUAE VtAu88uJupb3uvME aIIe/CBZLiiTmtDCOetJx0AYYBUVomaBLczgAE3gkKrY8IbRw2BohJE8APHB KD8EIsRy2LrjOeYT vxpI4lTYkRUGkYm4sE8qntXD8dkwhPQr/swhvpWuLWyti/37IguFmMW0vVCM efOiVGQXvzViURqa Qh77EvEYoCCghuQL4aVeQT2IeC2OUzwdGNFHl2z0y5DCakUmkDi7RYaxfkTS 1yeMc4/B4AR4i7xB FXxVREV4BCEF/KMcNWdJNupQa4Y8pf5Sqco03lA8VQQhGF0pwftBkoanRAYH g/FJAKTQkji5Yy99 CUmVLAUukYhV26yIzE9JL2+7KiUlnAkXr0ikmuC85Ij4IMNfvoCb04ggIsMp yIiRU4vmvNxFZMOJ WrJziePMxE9CF89IOvMmQImmNO9plKZ9wWHU0CQt7Gk7YAiUoEUJKCG/1c+e lQBqYOgB/kSdSZOD zpKfFeXkRfESpI5KB5n0vMOqykgMjuKApLNkxskKlNFoVlQGnUMIZkAn0Zr6 VDrXi4E2PWEawBhF f7n7qVI1srNg2GCok4ioUYuKqHksVakxZWk8GzrV26TzH9JsREozCjqQ+uqm w/tOTucJOHp+tIBk raqDoErUtA6nqAM9qjChWU9U6g6ke7wpMKH2nQhYkinevKsz26cdhUIkhMNp DWS7yZToMU6wjQMj x3Q2P3x4E5+YrQE4c7eQyTaWockMrQ3CSVq2EvaloAWRalHATofNM68bJZzW 6F…
creator: JeffH
date: 2006-11-20T06:21:44-00:00

Re: Man, I've found a workaround!!!!
type: item
description: /DtedBZDXSf FyTnSC660S+OdNsq /eYKAfqli76Qp0Pdx1JPiNV5bvKDbF2xXRd61sMu9rGT3etUP3vUza72taO2 7XAne0AAACH/C0dJ RkNPTm5iMS4wAgEADgoAAgADAAAAAAAAAAAACnNhbjJhLkdJRgAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C7273D.7F892090--This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C72716.E6077280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Merry Christmas to all ! ! ! I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you? http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C72716.E6077280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> Merry Christmas to all ! ! = ! &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, = and=20 you? <A=20 href=3D"http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html">http://www.polesoft.com/refer= ..html&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C72716.E6077280--Hey Aaron! You were asking about a Windows keyboard on a Mac. I just tried out a new Microsoft wireless keyboard and F12 does two things. If I tap it quickly, it launches or closes Dashboard, if I press and hold, it will open and close the CD drawer. If I press and hold Alt and F12 It opens and closes the bottom DVD drawer. I knew that I had done this before, but I couldn't remember how. Anyways, I hope this helps. They had these on sale a Office Depot with a wireless optical mouse for $20.00. A nice basic keyboard with some multimedia buttons. Now I just have to figure out how to get the multi media transport buttons to work on my Mac, also the email button. The volume and mute work great. James "Aaron Allen" <AA@nospam.net> wrote: > >OK, so I've figured out that I can use my Dell keyboard on a Mac G4 Dual system.... >what I can't figure out is what keystrokes to get the CD tray to eject, LOL... > >so Mac gurus.. how's that happen w/o the eject key (non-Mac keyboard)…
creator: Dimitrios
date: 2006-11-20T09:51:00-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system..FX ?? How good are they
type: item
description: , Thad and Neil have said I will take the FX = plugins with a grain of salt to see if they were worth the extra cash. I like the UAD, = some Paris plugs and a few natives alot. If these compliment those that's great. I = really needed the Pro card=20 for it's hardware and soft synths. =20 I'll report back when I have something valuable to add. Tom "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote in message = news:45949c8d$1@linux... http://scope.creamware.de/scope_fx.htm will be very interested to hear about it if so AA=20 I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you? http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html ------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C72B18.3B73C200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> This is a Project card. The reverb is = excellent as=20 is the Vinco. .Opimqaster and PysQ are good mastering tools, IMO, but = then=20 again, so are the UA mastering tools. That reverb is going to burn = through a bit=20 of DSP resources, but it's every bit as good as many hardware units I've = heard.=20 If someone was looking for a reverb and it was the choice between this = and a=20 standalone box of some sort, this card, be a contencer ,just for the=20 reverb.. &nbsp; &nbsp; <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> "Tom Bruhl" &lt;<A=20 href=3D"mailto:arpegio@comcast.net">arpegio@comcast.net&gt; wrote = in message=20 <A href=3D"news:4594ba78@linux">news:4594ba78@linux... Hi Aaron, I have the Pro card which = includes&nbsp;the FX=20 bundle.&nbsp; I've been tweaking my system without listening up to this = point.&nbsp; I think=20 within one week I'll finally have it installed to replace the old = AMD=20 1.4.&nbsp; That's when the true testing will come into play. &nbsp; Based on what Dimitrios, Thad and = Neil have said=20 I will take the FX plugins wit…
creator: LaMontt
date: 2006-11-21T00:35:23-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system..FX ?? How good are they
type: item
description: ays to sample BFD with all the > layers and alternate strokes that I find my self needing for it not to > sound > fake. > Rod > "Neil" <IUOI@OIU.com> wrote: >> >>Rod, kinda surprised that as a drummer, you just don't snag >>a few samples off your own kit & load them into D-Gog & forget >>about the BFD altogether... >> >>...anyway, what about just looping your MIDI out to your MIDI >>input & have D-gog trigger BFD that way?? >> >>Neil >> >> >>"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@kc.rr.com> wrote: >>> >>>Hey DJ...did you say you were triggering BFD from a live snare track via >>Drumagog >>>with asio, in the same computer??? I'm trying to get this to happen, and >>>I'm not quit sure how to go about it. Any pointers would be appreciated. >>>I've got Drumagog 3 Pro that spits out midi notes, but I can only select >>>my hardware midi outs. How do I get it to go to BFD internally. >>>thanks >>>Rod >> >Tony, I've done that also, with the DFH stuff. The BFD samples are all embedded in a data file that only plays in BFD. Rod "Tony Benson" <tony@standinghampton.com> wrote: >Rod, > >What format are BFD's samples? It's been a while ago, but I created some DFH >to Drumagog "gog" banks by dragging a bunch of DFH samples into Drumagog and >I'm almost certain Drumagog did all the work of organizing the different >levels and velocities. DFH samples are regular .wav files. I'd have to sit >down and go through it again to remember the details, but I seem to remember >being pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to create my own gog banks. >You might send Rim at Drumagog an email also. He's one the most helpful guys >out there. > >Tony > > >"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@kc.rr.com> wrote in message news:4594823c$1@linux... >> >> I thought of that (midi out to midi in) but that seems WAY too easy. I >> thought >> DJ could come up with a much more exciting way to do it. >> I just want to use some of the room and overhead sounds that are available >> in BFD to experiment with layering in under my own tracks,…
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-21T01:44:19-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system..FX ?? How good are they
type: item
description: I'm working on > it. >>> >>> Also, while you are there, check out the 'virtual slavery' suite. It's > a >>> way to steal audio from a VST plug in paris and get it over to the VST > >>> host >>> with 0 latency. >>> >>> Chuck >>> >>> >>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote: >>>>No luck... >>>> >>>>Are you sure the link is right? >>>> >>>>Don >>>> >>>> >>>>"Paul Artola" <artola@comcast.net> wrote in message >>>>news:9ijap2pv8sar50bj8r7as4kihj5fqaj9m8@4ax.com... >>>>> Just found this cool little program: >>>>> http://www.hermannseib.com/english/savihost.htm >>>>> >>>>> It enables VSTi to run standalone. Also has recording and >>>>> mixing/looping modes. And its freeware! >>>>> >>>>> - Paul Artola >>>>> Ellicott City, Maryland >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >Neil, That is one of my favorite ng posts EVER. Chuck "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote: > >OK, now as promised I'll continue where I left off: Clarifying >their product nomenclatures & i/o options... > >First of all, the question I had was: "Is it Creamware, is it >Scope, or is it Pulsar?" These guys have a marketing/branding >nightmare going on, really. I guess I started calling it >Pulsar, because two of the cards bear (or BORE) that name. No >one on the Pulsar forum corrected me or was confused by this, >so I guess the terms are more or less swappable. Confusing, but >swappable. > >So you basically have three sets of choices to make: > >1.) Which card you want (which basically means ONLY "how much >DSP power do you want?", because all the cards interface the >same way & do the same things). >2.) Which i/o options you want with the card you chose, IF you >chose something besides the entry-level card? (the Project card >& the Professional Card can take any of the three i/o >options- I'll fill in more in this regard shortly) >3.) Which software pack do you want included with the card, IF >you bought either the Project or Pro Cards? Mix & Master, or >Synths & Samplers? (While there is currently a special wherein >if you buy the…
creator: DJ
date: 2006-11-21T02:13:08-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system..FX ?? How good are they
type: item
description: azi's strike again! >>> >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> I have said myself some unkind things about El Presidente For Life Estebahn >>> Jobs, but in none of them have I ever called him Adolf Jobs or even Steve >>> Mussolini. So even before I begin I'm reminded of a phrase that includes >>> the words pot, kettle, and black. >>> >>> That said, in addition to the things Lamont mentioned I have two problems >>> with Steve Jobs. First, it's his relentless emphasis on what I call 'Apple >>> Exceptionalism,' the belief that somehow something inside an Apple OS > or >>> piece of hardware is mystically better than anything else. They're not, > it's >>> just a computer and an operating system, there's nothing special about > it >>> at all. Some people do special things with them, but some people do special >>> things with gardening tools, others with saxophones, and still others > with >>> computers running Windows believe it or not. The whole [grammatically > incorrect] >>> Think Different campaign only made that worse. >>> >>> The second thing I can't stand about Steve Jobs is the whole 'visionary > who >>> changed the world' thing. Neither he, nor Gates, nor any of the people > trotted >>> out as visionaries were anything close to it. The real visionaries in > the >>> world of computing are people like Marc Andreesen and Jamie Zawinski who >>> in essence made the web usable by normal people. Vinton Cerf is a visionary. >>> Linus Torvalds and Richard Stallman are visionaries, no matter how much >>> they can't stand each other. My old friend Stephan Sprenger, who wrote > an >>> SGI app that would do morphing DSP on audio files, but it was so complex >>> in 1993 that to morph a piece of audio would take 18 hours and if you > didn't >>> like the results you'd have to change one parameter and try again the > next >>> day. That's passion and vision and caring. The person who probably fits > that >>> description best at Apple was/is Woz. Compared to Woz Jobs …
creator: TCB
date: 2006-11-21T02:58:42-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system..FX ?? How good are they
type: item
description: /> "Bill O'lielly" <B@fauxnews.com> wrote: > >yeah...OK Rush >it's getting old..what a douchebag you are ...keep on topic. >DC" <dc@saddaminhell.com> wrote: >> >>The New York Times goes into mourning.... >"DC" <dc@saddaminhell.com> wrote: > >The New York Times goes into mourning.... Don, the NYT was one of the largest outlets for pre-war, pro-war propaganda in the US media. Judith Miller pretty much staffed the print media desk for the Office of Special Plans and the Cheney Brigade, while the editorial staff beat the war drums li
creator: gene lennon
date: 2006-11-21T03:38:39-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system..FX ?? How good are they
type: item
description: ke Philly Joe Jones--fast and loud. Like so many Monday morning geopolitical quarterbacks who played a game or two of Risk back in the day, they have supported every militarily aggressive move by the US or Israel that I can recall. When it became obvious that Miller had been supremely duped and the war wasn't going well, they VERY VERY slowly came around to the moderately critical stance they have now. Even today, with the exception of the honest Paul Krugman, the editorial page is relentlessly pro-war in that neo-dem, we have to look 'tough on security' kind of way. As for Saddam, few alive were more deserving of the walk down that plank and the snap of the neck. But anyone who aided, abetted, and bankrolled his crimes against humanity (that would include anyone who paid US income taxes in the 1980's, among many others) should pause to think a bit as well. TCBYeah after the first debacle wherein I tried to run the card on the same Machine as my Cubase rig, the "rep" checked with Creamware & mentioned that on older versions of the software, it reported 88.2k as an option... I asked him: "well, then how about seeing if they can send me one of THOSE verisons?", and there was some issue with that - perhaps it wouldn't work with the new hardware or something like that; so I then I pointed out that if their idea of moving forward was to drop a samplerate that some people DO use, but keep a samplerate like 32k that nobody on the planet uses anymore, then that's not very encouraging, either. lol Neil "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote: > less DSP's and an older software >> pack?)? > >Yup, that's exactly what I did. It's the Pulsar II I think. I got it in the >interests of testing it's summing and some synth action, and if I really >like it I'll get a newer
creator: TCB
date: 2006-11-21T04:13:20-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system..FX ?? How good are they
type: item
description: card. The latency on this older one is higher, but >for this purpose I really didn't care. If I get a newer one to go with it, >the latency will then drop to the newer one's settings. >Something you might wanna note Neil is that using this and the 3.1 software, >88200 shows up as an option in the sampling rate. > >AA > >"Neil" <IOUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:4595d664$1@linux... >> >> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote: >>>that's some nice stuff Chuck. I definitely hear some influencing going on, >> >>>one sounded very Doors and I just dug it man. >>>Keep posting them, I'm listening as I work on figuring out this Pulsar >>>thang... >> >> Hey Aaron, if you need some help figuring out the Pulsar stuff >> tonite, gimme a call: 915-FIVE-EIGHT-FIVE-3806, I might be able >> to walk you through some stuff... I'm doing some VERY tedious >> drum editing right now and could use an excuse to take a break
creator: gene lennon
date: 2006-11-21T04:35:30-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system..FX ?? How good are they
type: item
description: 's delivered to my office. "DC" <dc@spammersinthenewsroom.org> wrote: > >Oh jeez, that's funny... > >whooo, hah hah thanks man. I love fantasy especially when it's so damn >funny. > > >DC > > >"TCB" <<a href="mailto:nobody@ishere.com" target="_blank"
creator: Nil
date: 2006-11-21T04:38:39-00:00

Re: Man, I'm loving this Pulsar system..FX ?? How good are they
type: item
description: >nobody@ishere.com> wrote: >> >>"DC" <dc@saddaminhell.com> wrote: >>> >>>The New York Times goes into mourning.... >> >>Don, the NYT was one of the largest outlets for pre-war, pro-war propaganda >>in the US media. Judith Miller pretty much staffed the print media desk >for >>the Office of Special Plans and the Cheney Brigade, while the editorial >staff >>beat the war drums like Philly Joe Jones--fast and loud. Like so many Monday >>morning geopolitical quarterbacks who played a game or two of Risk back >in >>the day, they have supported every militarily aggressive move by the US >or >>Israel that I can recall. When it became obvious that Miller had been supremely >>duped and the war wasn't going well, they VERY VERY slowly came around to >>the moderately critical stance they have now. Even today, with the exception >>of the honest Paul Krugman, the editorial page is relentlessly pro-war in >>that neo-dem, we have to look 'tough on security' kind of way. >> >>As for Saddam, few alive were more deserving of the walk down that plank >>and the snap of the neck. But anyone who aided, abetted, and bankrolled >his >>crimes against humanity (that would include anyone who paid US income taxes >>in the 1980's, among many others) should pause to think a bit as well. >> >>TCB >Is there a point here? "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote: > >Do you read the NYT editorial page? I ask because I do, almost every day, >because it's delivered to my office. > >"DC" <<a href="mailto:dc@spammersinthenewsroom.org" ta
creator: TCB
date: 2006-11-21T05:13:46-00:00